How do I become more considerate?
March 24, 2019 10:19 PM Subscribe
My default isn't Good Person. I try to be more thoughtful and considerate, but it takes a conscious effort, and if I'm not paying attention, or if I'm having a shitty day, I slip back into ShittyPerson mode. What can I do to make this a more ingrained behavior? Examples and stuff below the fold:
Examples of my being a crappy person include:
I'm working the closing shift solo. I don't mop like I'm supposed to.
I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
I borrow something from a friend and am happy to never return it if they never ask for it.
I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
I will cancel plans or other commitments on short notice and for selfish reasons.
Less terrible sort of behavior that still fits the general pattern:
I walk into my partner's house with an ice cream cone and never even thought of getting him one.
These behaviors often seem tied to my depression; when I'm doing better mental health-wise, I am more able to be thoughtful and considerate, but the worse the mental health gets, the more effort it takes to not be a lunch thief. I am in therapy and on medication.
I feel essentially no guilt over these behaviors, only self-judgement on an intellectual level.
Before you suggest "try to empathize" -- that's what I do when I put in the conscious effort to Be Good.
Overall, I would like to be more thoughtful, considerate, responsible, etc. I want to be the sort of person who actually changes the toilet paper roll, rather than just placing the new roll on top of the empty one. How can I learn to be?
Examples of my being a crappy person include:
I'm working the closing shift solo. I don't mop like I'm supposed to.
I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
I borrow something from a friend and am happy to never return it if they never ask for it.
I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
I will cancel plans or other commitments on short notice and for selfish reasons.
Less terrible sort of behavior that still fits the general pattern:
I walk into my partner's house with an ice cream cone and never even thought of getting him one.
These behaviors often seem tied to my depression; when I'm doing better mental health-wise, I am more able to be thoughtful and considerate, but the worse the mental health gets, the more effort it takes to not be a lunch thief. I am in therapy and on medication.
I feel essentially no guilt over these behaviors, only self-judgement on an intellectual level.
Before you suggest "try to empathize" -- that's what I do when I put in the conscious effort to Be Good.
Overall, I would like to be more thoughtful, considerate, responsible, etc. I want to be the sort of person who actually changes the toilet paper roll, rather than just placing the new roll on top of the empty one. How can I learn to be?
Hmm, these all seem to fit under the umbrella of failures of conscientiousness.
You can become more conscientious over time, just with practice/persistence, I think. I dunno.
I used to be less conscientious, but I'm fairly strong at it today. Not perfect by any means, but we all have to allow ourselves some indulgences sometimes, especially when our tank is empty.
So I think first of all, be sure your self-evaluation is accurate. I just read this paragraph earlier tonight: "The upshot of their (psychologists') work is that there seems to be a paradox at the heart of introspection. The self is something that can be seen more accurately from a distance than from close up. The more you can yank yourself away from your own intimacy with yourself, the more reliable your self-awareness is likely to be."
If you think your self assessment is accurate and you still think you should be better, then:
1. Keep practicing conscientiousness
and 2. Evaluate what things in life drain your tank an unreasonable amount, and take any reasonably achievable steps toward changing those things
Good people are good at taking care of themselves first. The good news is that it's a life skill you can pick up at any age. The bad news is that, like any skill, improving it comes with setbacks and failures.
posted by Team of Scientists at 10:57 PM on March 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
You can become more conscientious over time, just with practice/persistence, I think. I dunno.
I used to be less conscientious, but I'm fairly strong at it today. Not perfect by any means, but we all have to allow ourselves some indulgences sometimes, especially when our tank is empty.
So I think first of all, be sure your self-evaluation is accurate. I just read this paragraph earlier tonight: "The upshot of their (psychologists') work is that there seems to be a paradox at the heart of introspection. The self is something that can be seen more accurately from a distance than from close up. The more you can yank yourself away from your own intimacy with yourself, the more reliable your self-awareness is likely to be."
If you think your self assessment is accurate and you still think you should be better, then:
1. Keep practicing conscientiousness
and 2. Evaluate what things in life drain your tank an unreasonable amount, and take any reasonably achievable steps toward changing those things
Good people are good at taking care of themselves first. The good news is that it's a life skill you can pick up at any age. The bad news is that, like any skill, improving it comes with setbacks and failures.
posted by Team of Scientists at 10:57 PM on March 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
These behaviors often seem tied to my depression; when I'm doing better mental health-wise, I am more able to be thoughtful and considerate, but the worse the mental health gets, the more effort it takes to not be a lunch thief. I am in therapy and on medication.
I think you already know what you need to do to become more considerate (i.e. improve your mental health); I think you're already doing what you need to do to work toward doing that; I think you might want to contemplate the possibility that beating yourself up for acting like a depressed person is part and parcel of being one, and that going a little easier on yourself for failing to live up to your own self-imposed standards could well be a step up out of the hole.
My default isn't Good Person.
Quite so. Your default is currently Depressed Person. Just keep on doing what you can to do Good Person actions when you have the spoons for it, do what you can to limit how much you beat yourself up when you don't have them, and give yourself the time you need to heal with the help of your meds and your therapy.
You'll be able to put runs on the board when your legs are no longer broken.
posted by flabdablet at 12:57 AM on March 25, 2019 [9 favorites]
I think you already know what you need to do to become more considerate (i.e. improve your mental health); I think you're already doing what you need to do to work toward doing that; I think you might want to contemplate the possibility that beating yourself up for acting like a depressed person is part and parcel of being one, and that going a little easier on yourself for failing to live up to your own self-imposed standards could well be a step up out of the hole.
My default isn't Good Person.
Quite so. Your default is currently Depressed Person. Just keep on doing what you can to do Good Person actions when you have the spoons for it, do what you can to limit how much you beat yourself up when you don't have them, and give yourself the time you need to heal with the help of your meds and your therapy.
You'll be able to put runs on the board when your legs are no longer broken.
posted by flabdablet at 12:57 AM on March 25, 2019 [9 favorites]
I would (very gently) disagree with the poster above that stealing from your housemates and co-workers are things that you just need to forgive yourself for until you’re mentally more healthy. Instead, I would take a more practical route and say that you need to focus in a very concrete way on NOT stealing and NOT doing deliberately destructive and unkind things to other people as a first step to changing, not as something that will follow naturally when you’re less depressed. I would try to build some kind of accountability into your life for this, which is something you could discuss with your therapist.
Some of the things you’ve mentioned are pretty small stakes (cancelling on plans, eh, not mopping, eh) but I’ve had my lunch stolen at work a few times years ago, when my blood sugar was low and I’d had a bad day already and I didn’t have money to buy more food or the time/energy to buy that food even if I had had the money, and it was devastating. I cried and I was embarrassed about crying and it was just an awful thing all the way around. So I think it’s amazing that you’re starting to recognise that what you’re doing is wrong, but being depressed is not an excuse for this stuff. Most depressed people don’t steal from their co-workers and housemates (and I find the idea of linking depression to theft to be a little offensive, if I’m honest).
posted by cilantro at 2:14 AM on March 25, 2019 [136 favorites]
Some of the things you’ve mentioned are pretty small stakes (cancelling on plans, eh, not mopping, eh) but I’ve had my lunch stolen at work a few times years ago, when my blood sugar was low and I’d had a bad day already and I didn’t have money to buy more food or the time/energy to buy that food even if I had had the money, and it was devastating. I cried and I was embarrassed about crying and it was just an awful thing all the way around. So I think it’s amazing that you’re starting to recognise that what you’re doing is wrong, but being depressed is not an excuse for this stuff. Most depressed people don’t steal from their co-workers and housemates (and I find the idea of linking depression to theft to be a little offensive, if I’m honest).
posted by cilantro at 2:14 AM on March 25, 2019 [136 favorites]
I'm skeptical that a simple lack of consideration or empathy explains these. If you knew, as seems likely, that many of these actions were wrong even as you did them, and did them anyhow, then it might be more useful to consider what you're getting out of this kind of behavior. It's facile to suggest that the payoff is free food, or physical ease, or the freedom to change your mind about what you want to do. Even if you find it difficult to imagine others' feelings, you surely know that these sorts of behaviors are socially destructive and likely to cost you much more than the value of the free snacks.
There's a book, nominally about animal training, called 'Don't Shoot the Dog.' It notes that you can't reinforce any behavior that your pet rock can do, e.g. your pet rock doesn't pee on the floor, and you can't train your dog not to pee on the floor either. What you can do is train your dog to pee outside, or on the grass. In line with that, I think it might be useful to reframe these instances as active behaviors rather than passive events -- you shirked the work, you stole the food, you blew off your friends, etc. From there, investigate why you're actively doing those things. Are you getting some thrill or satisfaction from transgressing social norms? Asserting yourself through defiance? Does the bad behavior validate a negative self image? The specifics are something to dig into in therapy. If you can identify the need that's driving these active choices, you'll have a much better chance at finding healthier ways to satisfy it.
posted by jon1270 at 3:32 AM on March 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
There's a book, nominally about animal training, called 'Don't Shoot the Dog.' It notes that you can't reinforce any behavior that your pet rock can do, e.g. your pet rock doesn't pee on the floor, and you can't train your dog not to pee on the floor either. What you can do is train your dog to pee outside, or on the grass. In line with that, I think it might be useful to reframe these instances as active behaviors rather than passive events -- you shirked the work, you stole the food, you blew off your friends, etc. From there, investigate why you're actively doing those things. Are you getting some thrill or satisfaction from transgressing social norms? Asserting yourself through defiance? Does the bad behavior validate a negative self image? The specifics are something to dig into in therapy. If you can identify the need that's driving these active choices, you'll have a much better chance at finding healthier ways to satisfy it.
posted by jon1270 at 3:32 AM on March 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
These don’t sound like a failure of conscientiousness to me because you’re aware of them. They sound more like aggressive/passive aggressive acts. It sounds to me like you are angry. Depression and anger are often linked. Maybe talk to your therapist about getting in touch with your anger and finding healthy ways to express it.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:38 AM on March 25, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:38 AM on March 25, 2019 [28 favorites]
Try acting as if your roommates WILL know it’s you eating the ice cream and that your coworkers DO know it’s you stealing lunches and that the people opening work the next morning already know about your poor/non mopping.
Because they likely already do. It’s not hard to figure these things out. That aside, treat the good behaviors as muscles that you need to exercise in order to make them stronger. Track your behavior in a journal, keep the non-theft streak going. And then the extra 5 seconds to put the toilet paper on the roll becomes muscle memory.
posted by kimberussell at 3:58 AM on March 25, 2019 [23 favorites]
Because they likely already do. It’s not hard to figure these things out. That aside, treat the good behaviors as muscles that you need to exercise in order to make them stronger. Track your behavior in a journal, keep the non-theft streak going. And then the extra 5 seconds to put the toilet paper on the roll becomes muscle memory.
posted by kimberussell at 3:58 AM on March 25, 2019 [23 favorites]
>I'm working the closing shift solo. I don't mop like I'm supposed to.
for me this kind of thing is related to the following thought patterns:
"ugh I'm so tired"
"ugh life is so exhausting and takes too much effort"
"ugh nothing I do is ever enough so why bother"
I have found that putting on very energetic music, ideally with a certain amount of angry energy, helps me force myself through the ugh cloud.
>I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
>I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
this may be related to similar self-talk as above. "ugh I'm so tired, I'm sick of needing to use willpower, I want to just indulge myself, ugh, everything is too hard, i deserve this food because everything is terrible". It may help to keep a supply of indulgences for yourself for these times, so you don't need to steal from other people. If you're worried you'll just use up the indulgences and have nothing left when willpower is low, maybe you can give them to a friend (housemate or coworker) you trust to keep track of, so that you need to go to them to ask for an indulgence. This will also potentially enable you to get, say, sympathy and a hug along with the chocolate bar.
----
If you're capable of committing to it, something that may help with all of these is choosing to adopt a policy of honesty and accountability. During your next "good person" phase, I suggest you apologize to people for what you've stolen in the past. Commit to doing this whenever you have the energy to be good.
If you find this scary, consider that kimberussell is probably right and people already suspect it's you, and apologizing goes some way to repairing the damage already inflicted on their trust.
posted by Cozybee at 5:10 AM on March 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
for me this kind of thing is related to the following thought patterns:
"ugh I'm so tired"
"ugh life is so exhausting and takes too much effort"
"ugh nothing I do is ever enough so why bother"
I have found that putting on very energetic music, ideally with a certain amount of angry energy, helps me force myself through the ugh cloud.
>I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
>I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
this may be related to similar self-talk as above. "ugh I'm so tired, I'm sick of needing to use willpower, I want to just indulge myself, ugh, everything is too hard, i deserve this food because everything is terrible". It may help to keep a supply of indulgences for yourself for these times, so you don't need to steal from other people. If you're worried you'll just use up the indulgences and have nothing left when willpower is low, maybe you can give them to a friend (housemate or coworker) you trust to keep track of, so that you need to go to them to ask for an indulgence. This will also potentially enable you to get, say, sympathy and a hug along with the chocolate bar.
----
If you're capable of committing to it, something that may help with all of these is choosing to adopt a policy of honesty and accountability. During your next "good person" phase, I suggest you apologize to people for what you've stolen in the past. Commit to doing this whenever you have the energy to be good.
If you find this scary, consider that kimberussell is probably right and people already suspect it's you, and apologizing goes some way to repairing the damage already inflicted on their trust.
posted by Cozybee at 5:10 AM on March 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
I’m reminded of some study I saw once that said that people were less likely to steal stuff if there was a picture of a person watching them. Some part of us apparently is concerned with social disapproval. Is there a way to leverage this to trick yourself into believing someone might be watching? I’m not clever enough to come up with one. I am impressed that you are trying to change, though. Good luck in your journey.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:43 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:43 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
It may be worth trying out compassion meditations or other ways of cultivating compassion. "Compassion" might be a good search term in general, too.
posted by lazuli at 6:45 AM on March 25, 2019
posted by lazuli at 6:45 AM on March 25, 2019
I agree with people above saying that this is related to depression, but it's not only depression. Stealing things isn't just a little shitty thing. Stealing things is actually, really wrong. But people who are on their high horse about this aren't right either. You are so, so far from uniquely bad! And you are so, so far from the only person who has ever struggled with this! Literally one of the foundational texts of Christianity is about this (a big ol' passage in which St. Augustine complains that he stole some pears from a dude AND HE DOESN'T EVEN LIKE PEARS and he doesn't know why he did it, why does he just suck so much?)
This is exactly the kind of problem that Christianity tries to address very seriously (well, other religions have things to say about this too but Christianity is especially obsessed with this why-do-I-do-bad-things-even-though-I-intellectually-know-they're-wrong issue). But you don't have to be remotely Christian to get some useful ideas out of the religious tradition that might help you address your problem. For example, I personally recently started praying in the morning and night, which includes a confession of things I've done wrong and specific prayers for me to do better at particular things (eg—being more conscientious). But even if you come from a different tradition, or if you don't believe that God exists and/or will help you, a similar ritual of thinking about what you've done wrong and imagining an alternative way you could deal with them in the future might help you keep these issues in mind no matter what kind of a day you're having—and might help create structure that would help you feel less depressed.
posted by branca at 6:58 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is exactly the kind of problem that Christianity tries to address very seriously (well, other religions have things to say about this too but Christianity is especially obsessed with this why-do-I-do-bad-things-even-though-I-intellectually-know-they're-wrong issue). But you don't have to be remotely Christian to get some useful ideas out of the religious tradition that might help you address your problem. For example, I personally recently started praying in the morning and night, which includes a confession of things I've done wrong and specific prayers for me to do better at particular things (eg—being more conscientious). But even if you come from a different tradition, or if you don't believe that God exists and/or will help you, a similar ritual of thinking about what you've done wrong and imagining an alternative way you could deal with them in the future might help you keep these issues in mind no matter what kind of a day you're having—and might help create structure that would help you feel less depressed.
posted by branca at 6:58 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
When I have taken what wasn't mine, it was in part because deep down I felt I wasn't EVER given anything in life while others ALWAYS were, so I was somehow owed it. (By the world, not by the individual.) This obviously wasn't accurate, but identifying that bitterness helped me sort it out. And it helped me see that even if my distorted perception of fairness in the world were correct, it wasn't the fault of the individual, and couldn't be corrected by these small mean acts.
Is it possible you feel the world has short-changed you? Are you angry? I sure was.
posted by kapers at 7:29 AM on March 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
Is it possible you feel the world has short-changed you? Are you angry? I sure was.
posted by kapers at 7:29 AM on March 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
I’ll also add that you seem to lack some self-control and discipline. What do those words mean to you? If you were to exert self-control in these situations where you are tempted to do a wrong, anti-social, thing...how would that feel? If you were to exert discipline over yourself, what would that mean?
posted by amanda at 7:43 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:43 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hmm, these all seem to fit under the umbrella of failures of conscientiousness.
I think they fit under the umbrella of selfishness. That is a word to which the modern world ascribes a huge amount of negative judgement, but we are all inherently selfish and we all indulge our selfishness to satisfy wants. We have children, we buy things wrapped in plastic, we drive when we could walk.
Do you think about other people when you choose actions that have a direct impact on them? I mean, do you consider the consequences of your actions for others? Are you aware that taking someone's lunch means they will not have any lunch? (That's not meant as a snarky question!)
"Do unto others" isn't a bad mantra to try to live by. You live broadly within this social contract. It's why people don't hit you over the head and steal your wallet, you know? It's important.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:53 AM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think they fit under the umbrella of selfishness. That is a word to which the modern world ascribes a huge amount of negative judgement, but we are all inherently selfish and we all indulge our selfishness to satisfy wants. We have children, we buy things wrapped in plastic, we drive when we could walk.
Do you think about other people when you choose actions that have a direct impact on them? I mean, do you consider the consequences of your actions for others? Are you aware that taking someone's lunch means they will not have any lunch? (That's not meant as a snarky question!)
"Do unto others" isn't a bad mantra to try to live by. You live broadly within this social contract. It's why people don't hit you over the head and steal your wallet, you know? It's important.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:53 AM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
Have you thought about habit-tracking/productivity kinds of tools? That is, you've got some bad habits you're trying to shake (and I'm not going to get into precisely how bad they are), and that seems like the kind of thing where giving yourself gold stars, or whatever kind of tracking you want to use, for resisting temptation might work. You see someone's lunch in the fridge at work, think about taking it, and then remember that you're not doing that any more and give yourself a point on the chart you're keeping for avoiding bad behavior. Break it down into the specific bad things you're likely to do, stealing food/shirking chores/whatever else, and see if that helps.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:05 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by LizardBreath at 8:05 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't know you but I would be surprised if you're a shitty person in general. We all do shitty things. You seem to recognize the number of shitty things you do is excessive, so yay.
One of the ways you're giving yourself permission to do shitty things is to label yourself. "A good person wouldn't do this, but I'm a bad person, so bon appetit"
When I did a seriously shitty thing once, among some long-term low-key shittiness, somebody helped me understand the power of self-labeling. I came to understand I was not a bad person, and began to actively see myself as a good person. Amazingly some of the things I used to do just seem completely out of character for me today, I can't even imagine doing them.
So think about all the reasons you are a good person, starting with wanting to improve.
tl;dr fake it till you make it
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:08 AM on March 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
One of the ways you're giving yourself permission to do shitty things is to label yourself. "A good person wouldn't do this, but I'm a bad person, so bon appetit"
When I did a seriously shitty thing once, among some long-term low-key shittiness, somebody helped me understand the power of self-labeling. I came to understand I was not a bad person, and began to actively see myself as a good person. Amazingly some of the things I used to do just seem completely out of character for me today, I can't even imagine doing them.
So think about all the reasons you are a good person, starting with wanting to improve.
tl;dr fake it till you make it
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:08 AM on March 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
It sounds like you feel angry, under that hurting and maybe under that, unappreciated / unloved / unloveable. So I would spend some time thinking about why you're hurting so much, and how you can feel better about yourself in a way that doesn't require minor lashing out at others.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:13 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:13 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
And, a kind of standard answer here, but there is a loving-kindness meditation you can do, Google Metta or try this link.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:19 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:19 AM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think you need to actively praise yourself for doing the good things - YES me I mopped the floor though nobody will know I did it, WELL DONE me for not eating my housemate's ice cream although they will never know I was tempted, GREAT JOB me on getting my own dinner not eating a workmate's etc. It sounds like you're in need of some love.
posted by london explorer girl at 9:30 AM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by london explorer girl at 9:30 AM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
Think about intent vs. impact. You're not intending to be a terrible person, but eating someone else's lunch has the potential to literally ruin their day (at the very best; at worst, you may cause them to have a medical emergency or feel insecure about their job/co-workers). You're not intending to be a jerk when you don't mop the floors at work, but the upshot is that someone needs to do that task - not doing it means you negatively impact the folks who start the next shift. If my roommate consistently ate/used things I purchased without talking with me first, I would feel the impact of being unhappy with my living situation.
Before deciding to do/not do something, ask yourself this question: what is the possible impact of my actions? Does that impact align with the person I'm striving to be?
posted by WaspEnterprises at 10:24 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Before deciding to do/not do something, ask yourself this question: what is the possible impact of my actions? Does that impact align with the person I'm striving to be?
posted by WaspEnterprises at 10:24 AM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Before you suggest "try to empathize" -- that's what I do when I put in the conscious effort to Be Good.
I mean, you just have to keep doing that. Keep putting in a conscious effort, you are on the right track. Not fun or easy, but the only way out is through. You know what works, and I can tell you a lot of ways to practice empathy, but you already know the fundamental answer. Build those pathways in your brain, and eventually it will become easier. That's how unlearning thought and behavior patterns, and instilling new ones, works. Like exercising or learning a language. Just practice. Keep up with the therapy. You're on the right path!
Although, making sure you have a stash of some food of your own at work so you aren't tempted to steal someone else's is a good idea too. Depression and hunger combined? That's hard stuff.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 12:05 PM on March 25, 2019
I mean, you just have to keep doing that. Keep putting in a conscious effort, you are on the right track. Not fun or easy, but the only way out is through. You know what works, and I can tell you a lot of ways to practice empathy, but you already know the fundamental answer. Build those pathways in your brain, and eventually it will become easier. That's how unlearning thought and behavior patterns, and instilling new ones, works. Like exercising or learning a language. Just practice. Keep up with the therapy. You're on the right path!
Although, making sure you have a stash of some food of your own at work so you aren't tempted to steal someone else's is a good idea too. Depression and hunger combined? That's hard stuff.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 12:05 PM on March 25, 2019
My first thought, like a few other people, was that you probably didn't grow in a home with much compassion, kindness or generosity. Just guessing, but that set a default way of thinking that people aren't going to care about you so why you should care about them. If this is true, then that should help you understand why this is so hard for you when it seems to be easy for others.
Second thought, is that you are probably very good a beating yourself and "tough coach" approaches which reinforce the negative self talk about probably not going to work very well. The alternative is reinforce the positive instead of punishing the negative.
There are lots of things that might help. My particular suggestion is to start a daily journal. First, reinforce that good things to happen to you (even if small). Write down three things that happened that day that you can appreciate - bonus if it involved someone else showed you consideration - but anything positive can count. Someone helped me out with a problem at work. The clerk smiled and said "have a nice day" in a genuine way. My coffee was hot. I got three green lights on the way home. Whatever. Second, make a list of everything that you can think of that you did that day that was generous or kind. Again, trivial is fine but try to find three if you can. Finally pick one moment from your day that you could have done better. Write out exactly what you wish you would do next time. Take a moment, picture yourself doing it and picture how you would feel afterwards. That good feeling - take pride in the fact that is the person you are becoming even if you aren't fully there yet.
posted by metahawk at 12:13 PM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Second thought, is that you are probably very good a beating yourself and "tough coach" approaches which reinforce the negative self talk about probably not going to work very well. The alternative is reinforce the positive instead of punishing the negative.
There are lots of things that might help. My particular suggestion is to start a daily journal. First, reinforce that good things to happen to you (even if small). Write down three things that happened that day that you can appreciate - bonus if it involved someone else showed you consideration - but anything positive can count. Someone helped me out with a problem at work. The clerk smiled and said "have a nice day" in a genuine way. My coffee was hot. I got three green lights on the way home. Whatever. Second, make a list of everything that you can think of that you did that day that was generous or kind. Again, trivial is fine but try to find three if you can. Finally pick one moment from your day that you could have done better. Write out exactly what you wish you would do next time. Take a moment, picture yourself doing it and picture how you would feel afterwards. That good feeling - take pride in the fact that is the person you are becoming even if you aren't fully there yet.
posted by metahawk at 12:13 PM on March 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I find the idea of linking depression to theft to be a little offensive, if I’m honest
I find the idea that mental illness only leads to cute and acceptably pitiable maladjusted behaviors a little offensive, myself.
Depressed people often do self destructive things out of a failure to cope with regular feelings of belonging, community, self-care, etc. I don’t think continuing to steal while “forgiving yourself” is the answer but try confronting the automatic thoughts behind these behaviors. Look up David Burns and daily automatic thought logging and maybe try it a few times to see if you can get to the bottom of what makes this “ok” to you (hint: it’s certainly not a lack of tough love from MeFi).
Example of automatic thoughts that might make you do this: “I think it’s not a big deal to steal a lunch because I think I’m a shitty person. Even if someone found out, they already know I’m a loser so it would hardly matter. I can’t sustain relationships in the long term so the stakes are very low.”
The idea would be to identify the thought distortions in the above and dismantle them so you feel more accountable for your actions.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:28 PM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
I find the idea that mental illness only leads to cute and acceptably pitiable maladjusted behaviors a little offensive, myself.
Depressed people often do self destructive things out of a failure to cope with regular feelings of belonging, community, self-care, etc. I don’t think continuing to steal while “forgiving yourself” is the answer but try confronting the automatic thoughts behind these behaviors. Look up David Burns and daily automatic thought logging and maybe try it a few times to see if you can get to the bottom of what makes this “ok” to you (hint: it’s certainly not a lack of tough love from MeFi).
Example of automatic thoughts that might make you do this: “I think it’s not a big deal to steal a lunch because I think I’m a shitty person. Even if someone found out, they already know I’m a loser so it would hardly matter. I can’t sustain relationships in the long term so the stakes are very low.”
The idea would be to identify the thought distortions in the above and dismantle them so you feel more accountable for your actions.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:28 PM on March 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm working the closing shift solo. I don't mop like I'm supposed to.
I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
I borrow something from a friend and am happy to never return it if they never ask for it.
I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
I will cancel plans or other commitments on short notice and for selfish reasons.
Is it possible that any of this is self-sabotage? That you, on some level, are committed to thinking of yourself as not being a good person, so you intentionally if subconsciously make decisions that will hurt someone else, likely without direct interpersonal consequences for you because they won't know, but with a small psychic toll on you. So it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: I'm not a Good Person so therefore I can do Bad Things, and I do Bad Things so I know I am not a Good Person; instead I am ShittyPerson.
It also seems meaningful that you capitalized Good Person, too; this is maybe black and white thinking, a cognitive distortion, in which some people are Good and some people are Bad, when reality is lot more complicated than this.
A few folks have said it might be useful for you to understand why you are doing these behaviors, especially the ones that involve stealing. Sure, you get to eat ice cream and other treats in the short term, but I suspect there's more reward than just the immediate food.
I feel essentially no guilt over these behaviors, only self-judgement on an intellectual level.
That's guilt.
I'm a big fan of trying to get external controls for my behavior (I don't keep tempting junk food around the house because it's easier not to eat junk food). What if you wrote up an anonymous note and stuck it on the fridge at work and it said, "I'm sorry I've been eating some lunches from the fridge. I won't do this anymore." So then you can apologize and maybe stop the behavior.
You might also tell your roommate you've been eating the ice cream and apologize. Give your roommate $20 (or whatever) to pay it back. And then you won't eat it anymore because then your roommate would know you ate the ice cream. I'm wondering if some accountability might be helpful (but I don't know).
posted by bluedaisy at 12:41 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm living with a few roommates. I eat someone else's ice cream because they'll never know it's me.
I borrow something from a friend and am happy to never return it if they never ask for it.
I would eat someone else's food out of the work fridge.
I will cancel plans or other commitments on short notice and for selfish reasons.
Is it possible that any of this is self-sabotage? That you, on some level, are committed to thinking of yourself as not being a good person, so you intentionally if subconsciously make decisions that will hurt someone else, likely without direct interpersonal consequences for you because they won't know, but with a small psychic toll on you. So it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: I'm not a Good Person so therefore I can do Bad Things, and I do Bad Things so I know I am not a Good Person; instead I am ShittyPerson.
It also seems meaningful that you capitalized Good Person, too; this is maybe black and white thinking, a cognitive distortion, in which some people are Good and some people are Bad, when reality is lot more complicated than this.
A few folks have said it might be useful for you to understand why you are doing these behaviors, especially the ones that involve stealing. Sure, you get to eat ice cream and other treats in the short term, but I suspect there's more reward than just the immediate food.
I feel essentially no guilt over these behaviors, only self-judgement on an intellectual level.
That's guilt.
I'm a big fan of trying to get external controls for my behavior (I don't keep tempting junk food around the house because it's easier not to eat junk food). What if you wrote up an anonymous note and stuck it on the fridge at work and it said, "I'm sorry I've been eating some lunches from the fridge. I won't do this anymore." So then you can apologize and maybe stop the behavior.
You might also tell your roommate you've been eating the ice cream and apologize. Give your roommate $20 (or whatever) to pay it back. And then you won't eat it anymore because then your roommate would know you ate the ice cream. I'm wondering if some accountability might be helpful (but I don't know).
posted by bluedaisy at 12:41 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I strongly agree with the "act as if" concept - you need to act as if your roommate would find out. Act as if the lunch owner is going to walk in the room while you're scanning the fridge contents. Not stealing from people won't become a natural behavior from you by just sitting around trying to manufacture thoughts of you not stealing. It will come from you actually practicing considering stealing, going right up to the moment of doing it - actually looking at that lunch in the fridge, and then acting as if you were going to be caught, and doing the right thing so that you don't get caught.
You practice that enough, you'll find out that "Oh hey, I didn't steal that lunch and it turns out I was fine and I didn't do that crappy thing that makes me the person I don't want to be." Once you have a stable of positive experiences like that to build on, it will begin to feel better and you'll feel less pull to even go looking at the thing to steal in the first place.
You want to be a Good Person. Good on you for wanting this. Now go act as if you are one. You can start today, then you will be!
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:54 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
You practice that enough, you'll find out that "Oh hey, I didn't steal that lunch and it turns out I was fine and I didn't do that crappy thing that makes me the person I don't want to be." Once you have a stable of positive experiences like that to build on, it will begin to feel better and you'll feel less pull to even go looking at the thing to steal in the first place.
You want to be a Good Person. Good on you for wanting this. Now go act as if you are one. You can start today, then you will be!
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:54 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
As others have said, imagine if they did walk in and see you finishing their ice cream. Maybe also consider, they could already know/suspect that it's you and they're just not saying anything because confronting people is a lot of work. And/or they know you're depressed and have a lot on your plate and they've basically forgiven you. But it might be affecting your relationships, even if "they'll never know it was me".
posted by aimedwander at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2019
posted by aimedwander at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2019
I had a housemate eat my lunch, once.
It was ten years ago. He had mental health reasons for his impulse control problems.
But: He never acknowledged it or apologized.
It's entirely possible he thought I didn't know it was him. As a quick reality check to you - in a work or shared living situation, there are only so many options, and what I did is what I imagine many people do - I quietly confirmed with the people I didn't suspect that they hadn't done it.
I didn't confront him because I didn't believe it would accomplish anything. By the time I was back at the house I'd already cried about my stolen lunch and the betrayal of trust and whatever.
Anyway, this was ten years ago. I am pretty sure he doesn't remember it. It still colors my thoughts of him, and it would still mean something to me if he ever reached out and apologized to me about it.
posted by Cozybee at 6:46 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
It was ten years ago. He had mental health reasons for his impulse control problems.
But: He never acknowledged it or apologized.
It's entirely possible he thought I didn't know it was him. As a quick reality check to you - in a work or shared living situation, there are only so many options, and what I did is what I imagine many people do - I quietly confirmed with the people I didn't suspect that they hadn't done it.
I didn't confront him because I didn't believe it would accomplish anything. By the time I was back at the house I'd already cried about my stolen lunch and the betrayal of trust and whatever.
Anyway, this was ten years ago. I am pretty sure he doesn't remember it. It still colors my thoughts of him, and it would still mean something to me if he ever reached out and apologized to me about it.
posted by Cozybee at 6:46 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
It might help to reframe at least some of these behaviors from “things that just happen if I don’t stop myself” to “things I actively choose to do.” Taking someone’s lunch is not the result of a lack of effort—it’s a conscious action to reach into the fridge and take the lunch.
posted by sallybrown at 7:08 PM on March 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 7:08 PM on March 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
Your description of lacking empathy reminds me of narcissistic personality disorder and anti social personality disorder (sociopathy). I am not in any way saying you have these disorders, but there is research/literature out there that may be helpful to you. I would look into nature vs nurture and how people with these kinds of disorders can overcome certain aspects of them. In particular there was a professor who discovered via brain scan that he was perhaps a sociopath on the level of many serious criminals, but his childhood was trauma free and he lived a pretty normal life (and I’m thinking your depression may be a sort of “trauma” where you are more likey to act out these urges when your mental health isn’t good). But he still had those kinds of leanings. I’m not sure what’s out there on practical ways to overcome this but it’s worth looking into.
posted by sillysally at 8:05 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by sillysally at 8:05 PM on March 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by carmicha at 10:48 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]