Dating tips wanted for a middle-aged lady who is totally new at it!
March 8, 2019 9:36 AM Subscribe
(Please don't say "No rules, just figure out what works for you", because I really need guidance.)
I'm an alien on Planet Dating. I need help. I'm going to list my needs and circumstances here in unvarnished detail, and you all can help me figure out how to translate this into Dating-Code: Dating-Behaviors for what to do on dates, Dating-Speak for my dating profile and first date conversations, Dating-Expectations for my own sanity and mental health.
Please take it as understood that I get to do this however I want and figure myself out, yadda yadda... My problem is that knowing this does not help me with the HOW of doing it in practice. I have no clue.
My background: I'm almost 40, female, and straight. I was forbidden to date as a young person. I married a man I "met" when I was 15, whom I got to know long-distance through letters and emails. We literally never dated, just met up for weekends after we were already in love. We got divorced three years ago after 15 years of marriage. We share custody of our youngish children. Everything's amicable. Since the divorce, I have hesitantly ventured out to date - went out at least once with 6 men, dated (and slept with) three of them for at least six weeks and one of them was six months. All of this has been weird, freaky, too complicated and confusing to be much fun.
I want all of your tips and your wisdom and you ways of thinking about relationships and dating. And in addition, I am looking for your thoughts on the following specific issues I face:
(1) Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?" So far that's been the case and I don't even know if that's acceptable or how to do it properly. The guys always seemed uncomfortable and vague in response. But IDK it's pretty damn important to me to know if they just want to hook up or if they're looking for a relationship or something inbetween. Am I supposed to be too old and too mature to want to know this early? Am I supposed to be "dating casually" by default and then ask the question three? five? twenty? dates in? Like, how is this done in real life? I need to know in order to set my own expectations.
(2) I need help (?? is that the right word?) with sex. I have a history of sexual trauma so I have a few triggers, plus I basically freeze up rather than ask for what I want in bed. If I am to change, I need a partner who is patient with my process of learning to ask, which is very very hard for me in general (due to other aspects of my childhood history). How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though? It's turtles all the way down. I need a script for this, maybe? And a strategy in terms of when I can bring this up? So far I've been fine with having sex on the third or fourth date, but that seems FAR too early for me to say anything about this... IDK.
(3) What's the deal with who pays for first dates? I'm the kind of feminist who thinks it's fair for guys to pay for first dates because of how much extra effort and expense it is to be a gender-conforming woman while dating men (I'm happy to pick up the tab next time). Is that okay, though, or is it very far outside current norms, or guaranteed to land me with secretly-sexist men, or what?
(4) I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far, including the guy who lasted six months. I've explained it to myself as dating being necessarily a less heady, less hormone-fueled thing for people my age (late 30s). Now that I think about it, with all the men I've dated so far, it's mostly been a chore to give up my lovely alone-time to hang out with them, even if they're fun to talk to or fun to have sex with or whatever. I wonder if that's par for the course or whether I'm doing it wrong by continuing to date people who I'm hoping will grow on me rather than move on in hope of finding someone who I'm innately looking forward to seeing from the get-go.
(5) The most groan-worthy question of all, I know, but I have to ask: what's a rough timeline for how emotionally involved people get? To make it super concrete: the first date is far too soon to talk to a guy about how I'm dealing emotionally with being sexually assaulted, and 6 months in seems a bit late? I think? But I'm not sure. Or take another example: when-ish, generally, would you expect the person you're dating to hang out with your friends?
(6) I am unsure of where the balance lies between asking for emotional intimacy vs. seeing what happens organically. At six months in with that one guy, I had never met any of his friends, everything was super casual still, there was no more emotional closeness than there had been at one month in - even though we both said from the start that we wanted more than just a casual hookup. From my end, I invited closeness in many ways but he seemed to rebuff it always (e.g. I'd invite him to my friend's barbecue and he'd politely refuse, I'd share something I had recently published and he'd say he'd rather not read it because it felt to him life he was intruding on my personal life to read my poetry, etc.). As a result, *I* didn't form a close bond with him either. After 6 months this felt kind of hollow to me, so I ended it. When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already. <---- Was that weird or unfair? I just assumed he wasn't that into me, because he didn't act like it. Asking for it felt icky, like forcing the matter, and anyway, his actions spoke quite loudly enough for me to hear. I wouldn't have trusted him if he had changed in response to me asking.
Thanks in advance!
I'm an alien on Planet Dating. I need help. I'm going to list my needs and circumstances here in unvarnished detail, and you all can help me figure out how to translate this into Dating-Code: Dating-Behaviors for what to do on dates, Dating-Speak for my dating profile and first date conversations, Dating-Expectations for my own sanity and mental health.
Please take it as understood that I get to do this however I want and figure myself out, yadda yadda... My problem is that knowing this does not help me with the HOW of doing it in practice. I have no clue.
My background: I'm almost 40, female, and straight. I was forbidden to date as a young person. I married a man I "met" when I was 15, whom I got to know long-distance through letters and emails. We literally never dated, just met up for weekends after we were already in love. We got divorced three years ago after 15 years of marriage. We share custody of our youngish children. Everything's amicable. Since the divorce, I have hesitantly ventured out to date - went out at least once with 6 men, dated (and slept with) three of them for at least six weeks and one of them was six months. All of this has been weird, freaky, too complicated and confusing to be much fun.
I want all of your tips and your wisdom and you ways of thinking about relationships and dating. And in addition, I am looking for your thoughts on the following specific issues I face:
(1) Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?" So far that's been the case and I don't even know if that's acceptable or how to do it properly. The guys always seemed uncomfortable and vague in response. But IDK it's pretty damn important to me to know if they just want to hook up or if they're looking for a relationship or something inbetween. Am I supposed to be too old and too mature to want to know this early? Am I supposed to be "dating casually" by default and then ask the question three? five? twenty? dates in? Like, how is this done in real life? I need to know in order to set my own expectations.
(2) I need help (?? is that the right word?) with sex. I have a history of sexual trauma so I have a few triggers, plus I basically freeze up rather than ask for what I want in bed. If I am to change, I need a partner who is patient with my process of learning to ask, which is very very hard for me in general (due to other aspects of my childhood history). How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though? It's turtles all the way down. I need a script for this, maybe? And a strategy in terms of when I can bring this up? So far I've been fine with having sex on the third or fourth date, but that seems FAR too early for me to say anything about this... IDK.
(3) What's the deal with who pays for first dates? I'm the kind of feminist who thinks it's fair for guys to pay for first dates because of how much extra effort and expense it is to be a gender-conforming woman while dating men (I'm happy to pick up the tab next time). Is that okay, though, or is it very far outside current norms, or guaranteed to land me with secretly-sexist men, or what?
(4) I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far, including the guy who lasted six months. I've explained it to myself as dating being necessarily a less heady, less hormone-fueled thing for people my age (late 30s). Now that I think about it, with all the men I've dated so far, it's mostly been a chore to give up my lovely alone-time to hang out with them, even if they're fun to talk to or fun to have sex with or whatever. I wonder if that's par for the course or whether I'm doing it wrong by continuing to date people who I'm hoping will grow on me rather than move on in hope of finding someone who I'm innately looking forward to seeing from the get-go.
(5) The most groan-worthy question of all, I know, but I have to ask: what's a rough timeline for how emotionally involved people get? To make it super concrete: the first date is far too soon to talk to a guy about how I'm dealing emotionally with being sexually assaulted, and 6 months in seems a bit late? I think? But I'm not sure. Or take another example: when-ish, generally, would you expect the person you're dating to hang out with your friends?
(6) I am unsure of where the balance lies between asking for emotional intimacy vs. seeing what happens organically. At six months in with that one guy, I had never met any of his friends, everything was super casual still, there was no more emotional closeness than there had been at one month in - even though we both said from the start that we wanted more than just a casual hookup. From my end, I invited closeness in many ways but he seemed to rebuff it always (e.g. I'd invite him to my friend's barbecue and he'd politely refuse, I'd share something I had recently published and he'd say he'd rather not read it because it felt to him life he was intruding on my personal life to read my poetry, etc.). As a result, *I* didn't form a close bond with him either. After 6 months this felt kind of hollow to me, so I ended it. When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already. <---- Was that weird or unfair? I just assumed he wasn't that into me, because he didn't act like it. Asking for it felt icky, like forcing the matter, and anyway, his actions spoke quite loudly enough for me to hear. I wouldn't have trusted him if he had changed in response to me asking.
Thanks in advance!
I'll take a stab at a couple of these, with the caveat that I genuinely don't think there are universal rules- people and their needs are unique! 1. If you want a serious relationship, I think it's completely fair to ask early on. Not 'are you ready for a serious relationship with me?' but whether that's what they're looking for in general. If you're using a dating app, it might be possible to see this before you even go out with someone. 3. Personally, I think it's fair to go Dutch. That's just me (also a woman dating men). I wouldn't judge someone based on whether they offer to pay. 4. Did you feel butterflies with your ex? 5. There really isn't a rule here. In my experience, it can happen really quickly, i.e., a few weeks of a lot of contact.
posted by pinochiette at 9:47 AM on March 8, 2019
posted by pinochiette at 9:47 AM on March 8, 2019
I'll only speak to issue #3 and I feel strongly about it. First dates, half and half. Second dates, half and half. And so on, until it feels balanced enough for one or the other to take the bill.
posted by lois1950 at 9:54 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by lois1950 at 9:54 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
(1)What are you looking for?" Decide what *you* want. Men, esp. on dating sites, are great at asking for what they want. Do the same. You want to be in a relationship with shared friends, conversation, doing fun stuff. You probably want to take it slow on sex, because you have a history of trauma; you definitely need someone who listens really well. Before a date, I would make it clear that you are not looking for a hookup, that you want a relationship.
(2) sex, sexual trauma. Therapist with experience in sexual trauma treatment. You deserve this.
(3) who pays? Think of it as reparations.
(4) "butterflies" Not age-related; you just haven't found a guy with the right pheromones, etc.
(5) timeline for how emotionally involved people get? Before you have sex. And that can be 3 dates to as many as feels right to you. See above, Therapy.
(6) asking for emotional intimacy - ask to meet friends, ask for emotional closeness. You deserve a great relationship, You deserve love, intimacy, fun, great sex, respect. If it's withheld, you can ask why, but moving on is often the resolution.
Hardly anybody worth having a relationship with is great at dating. The guys who are great at dating are often committed to being single, so they get a ton of practice. You don't have to be great at dating. You're nice, kind, interesting & interested. It's okay to say Dating's hard; I don't have lots of practice. You're doing great.
posted by theora55 at 9:55 AM on March 8, 2019 [11 favorites]
(2) sex, sexual trauma. Therapist with experience in sexual trauma treatment. You deserve this.
(3) who pays? Think of it as reparations.
(4) "butterflies" Not age-related; you just haven't found a guy with the right pheromones, etc.
(5) timeline for how emotionally involved people get? Before you have sex. And that can be 3 dates to as many as feels right to you. See above, Therapy.
(6) asking for emotional intimacy - ask to meet friends, ask for emotional closeness. You deserve a great relationship, You deserve love, intimacy, fun, great sex, respect. If it's withheld, you can ask why, but moving on is often the resolution.
Hardly anybody worth having a relationship with is great at dating. The guys who are great at dating are often committed to being single, so they get a ton of practice. You don't have to be great at dating. You're nice, kind, interesting & interested. It's okay to say Dating's hard; I don't have lots of practice. You're doing great.
posted by theora55 at 9:55 AM on March 8, 2019 [11 favorites]
If you're still in your 30s, you are not "middle aged"! Says this almost-38 year old.
In response to your questions:
1 - ugggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh probably, yeah. I found that the deeper I got into my 30s, the more men my age did not intend to ever settle down. I assumed in my 20s that at some point all the fuckboi manchildren who wanted to get serious "someday" would gradually sort themselves out, and I would find myself interacting with people who had realized that someday is now. Nope. Instead I just got older manchildren. My solution as a 34 year old who wanted to have kids someday was to just cut bait if after a couple months we were still in booty call/avoidance of the "what are we doing here question" territory. (Note that there's nothing wrong with never wanting to settle down per se, just that few if any of these men are secure enough in their feelings to just fucking say that.)
2 - yeah, this one is hard. Me too, to all of this. And, yeah, I never really did land on when and how to bring this up, especially in the context of casual dating. My solution to this was to feel shitty about it a lot until I finally met my future husband, who just... got me. No idea how applicable this is to your life, as I've never dated with kids already in the picture.
3 - both, either, go halfsies, whatever y'all want. There are no rules anymore. I did find that offering to pay was a good litmus test to figure out exactly how much toxic masculinity I was dealing with. On the other hand, the one rule I think is important is that, if one person invites the other person out to do something kind of expensive, the asker needs to be fully prepared to pay for the whole experience.
4 - yeah, no, you should have butterflies. Your entire emotional faucet doesn't get shut off at 30. That's not a thing. If you're not that into someone, you're not that into them.
5 - the short answer is that, if I feel unsure about this stuff in a way that is affecting anything, they aren't the right person. When I started dating my husband (at age 35), I asked him if he wanted kids -- in general, not like "when would you like to impregnate me" -- on the 3rd date. Because I felt comfortable with him. I don't remember when I brought up previous sexual trauma. Probably very early on? It just felt right, immediately, and there never was that awkwardness of "what are we?" or "is it the right time to reveal x", or whatever. Hell, I accidentally said "I love you" like 6 weeks in without really thinking about it. With my previous most serious relationship, I ruminated on whether it was OK if I said it first, and if they would say it back, and if it was too soon, or should I wait, etc. for months. (But also, I would say "meet the friends" should be OK within the first month or two. Like if it's been a full 8 weeks and they bristle at the thought of meeting your friends or seem uncomfortable at the prospect of anyone they know seeing you together, that's not good.)
6 - like with #5, yeah, this is not how a promising serious relationship begins. It's fine if you want to have casual sex with someone for 6 months and not have it progress beyond that (I've been there! It was fine!), but if that's not what you want, stuff like this is a good signal that you are not with the right person for you.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 10:04 AM on March 8, 2019 [13 favorites]
In response to your questions:
1 - ugggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh probably, yeah. I found that the deeper I got into my 30s, the more men my age did not intend to ever settle down. I assumed in my 20s that at some point all the fuckboi manchildren who wanted to get serious "someday" would gradually sort themselves out, and I would find myself interacting with people who had realized that someday is now. Nope. Instead I just got older manchildren. My solution as a 34 year old who wanted to have kids someday was to just cut bait if after a couple months we were still in booty call/avoidance of the "what are we doing here question" territory. (Note that there's nothing wrong with never wanting to settle down per se, just that few if any of these men are secure enough in their feelings to just fucking say that.)
2 - yeah, this one is hard. Me too, to all of this. And, yeah, I never really did land on when and how to bring this up, especially in the context of casual dating. My solution to this was to feel shitty about it a lot until I finally met my future husband, who just... got me. No idea how applicable this is to your life, as I've never dated with kids already in the picture.
3 - both, either, go halfsies, whatever y'all want. There are no rules anymore. I did find that offering to pay was a good litmus test to figure out exactly how much toxic masculinity I was dealing with. On the other hand, the one rule I think is important is that, if one person invites the other person out to do something kind of expensive, the asker needs to be fully prepared to pay for the whole experience.
4 - yeah, no, you should have butterflies. Your entire emotional faucet doesn't get shut off at 30. That's not a thing. If you're not that into someone, you're not that into them.
5 - the short answer is that, if I feel unsure about this stuff in a way that is affecting anything, they aren't the right person. When I started dating my husband (at age 35), I asked him if he wanted kids -- in general, not like "when would you like to impregnate me" -- on the 3rd date. Because I felt comfortable with him. I don't remember when I brought up previous sexual trauma. Probably very early on? It just felt right, immediately, and there never was that awkwardness of "what are we?" or "is it the right time to reveal x", or whatever. Hell, I accidentally said "I love you" like 6 weeks in without really thinking about it. With my previous most serious relationship, I ruminated on whether it was OK if I said it first, and if they would say it back, and if it was too soon, or should I wait, etc. for months. (But also, I would say "meet the friends" should be OK within the first month or two. Like if it's been a full 8 weeks and they bristle at the thought of meeting your friends or seem uncomfortable at the prospect of anyone they know seeing you together, that's not good.)
6 - like with #5, yeah, this is not how a promising serious relationship begins. It's fine if you want to have casual sex with someone for 6 months and not have it progress beyond that (I've been there! It was fine!), but if that's not what you want, stuff like this is a good signal that you are not with the right person for you.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 10:04 AM on March 8, 2019 [13 favorites]
1. A lot of guys really are "looking for a relationship" but will absolutely "just hook up" with women they don't consider as serious relationship candidates. If you get a vague answer to this question, assume they've put you in the latter category. There is no reason not to put them on the spot early on with this question, if you're looking to avoid casual hookups.
2. Talking about sex before having sex generally results in better sex. "It takes me a while to get comfortable enough to ask for what I want, so I need some patience on this" is a completely reasonable thing to float in the very early stages of dating, once some actual in-person physical chemistry has been established.
3. Any guy who isn't at least prepared to cover the whole tab for the first date does not have his shit together. If you don't want to pay, don't offer to split unless he brings it up or you both end up looking awkwardly at the check, waiting for somebody to make the first move. If he's weird about insisting on paying, or seems like he's running a balance sheet on who's paying for what, that's usually a pretty big red flag. Dudes with tight budgets need to be up front about that before you're at the date venue.
4. Any given romantic prospect's full butterfly cohort does not necessarily show up immediately, but this is a hard one to workshop from the outside. You're not doing it wrong objectively, but maybe you're doing it wrong for you. I don't think it's necessarily an age thing, though.
5. This is another real YMMV one. A couple weeks? 4-5 dates? After sleeping together?
6. I'd say organically, and that this particular guy was just emotionally closed off and tried to push some of the blame for that on you. It sounds like you handled it just fine.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]
2. Talking about sex before having sex generally results in better sex. "It takes me a while to get comfortable enough to ask for what I want, so I need some patience on this" is a completely reasonable thing to float in the very early stages of dating, once some actual in-person physical chemistry has been established.
3. Any guy who isn't at least prepared to cover the whole tab for the first date does not have his shit together. If you don't want to pay, don't offer to split unless he brings it up or you both end up looking awkwardly at the check, waiting for somebody to make the first move. If he's weird about insisting on paying, or seems like he's running a balance sheet on who's paying for what, that's usually a pretty big red flag. Dudes with tight budgets need to be up front about that before you're at the date venue.
4. Any given romantic prospect's full butterfly cohort does not necessarily show up immediately, but this is a hard one to workshop from the outside. You're not doing it wrong objectively, but maybe you're doing it wrong for you. I don't think it's necessarily an age thing, though.
5. This is another real YMMV one. A couple weeks? 4-5 dates? After sleeping together?
6. I'd say organically, and that this particular guy was just emotionally closed off and tried to push some of the blame for that on you. It sounds like you handled it just fine.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]
Oh, not in answer to any specific one of your questions, but something I noticed and I think I've said here before: casual people who don't easily get into serious emotional relationships are way, way overrepresented in the dating world, because they're the ones who keep on dating, as opposed to finding someone and being off the market. So you can run into a lot of sort of unavailably standoffish men and wonder if that's just normal these days, and it's not, exactly, just normal for the kinds of men you're going to have to sort through. (And no judgment on the casually standoffish if that's what works for them, it just feels weird when it seems as if that's all you're running into.)
So, your questions are largely around the question of how much emotional connection you can expect, and I think an important thing is to hold out for someone that makes you feel good rather than thinking of the men you meet on dating sites as setting a norm.
posted by LizardBreath at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2019 [21 favorites]
So, your questions are largely around the question of how much emotional connection you can expect, and I think an important thing is to hold out for someone that makes you feel good rather than thinking of the men you meet on dating sites as setting a norm.
posted by LizardBreath at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2019 [21 favorites]
I realize the text below may sound harsh. I apologize and hope it's slightly useful. I have no doubt you mean well and wish you the best of luck.
If you'd asked me three days before I'd met my spouse if I was looking to get married, I'd have said, "hell no. Marriage is a soul-crushing scam perpetrating by anti-feminist, reactionary, religious nutters designed to enslave people and deprive them of freedom and volition." But, being married has been mostly great. It took something like six years to seriously consider the topic, another two to do it. What I was looking for during our first few years of dating was someone I enjoyed talking to and spending time with.
#5 and #6 are really tough. #5 is hard, and I've made the wrong choice repeatedly, so offering advice seems silly. Within around fifty hours of conversation would be my guess, but I'm probably wrong. In my anecdotal experience, your approach to #6 sounds spot on. Unless the guy is actually autistic, having to demand for emotional intimacy is a bright red flag.
posted by eotvos at 10:44 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]
Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?"I haven't dated anyone but my spouse for several years, but having been an early-thirties straight guy going on random dates, I always found this a confusing and truly bizarre question. I was always looking to have an engaging moment with someone I found interesting. Whether that lead to a nice conversation, or sex, or a year long relationship, or marriage seems like a very strange thing to decide ahead of time. Asking "do you want children" six months in isn't crazy - 'cause that's a big life-changing decision that's incompatible with other choices. But, living in the moment is worth a lot. My smart-ass answer on a first date would have been, "I'm looking for an interesting conversation." (Or, if I was feeling ornery, "I'm looking for someone who can offer scathing criticism of classics films.") The idea that you could want a long term relationship without knowing who it involves is, frankly, bizarre. I'd bite my own leg off to avoid a long term relationship with most of the people I've met. If I don't know you, there's a pretty good chance you're among them. It'll take a long while to find out.
If you'd asked me three days before I'd met my spouse if I was looking to get married, I'd have said, "hell no. Marriage is a soul-crushing scam perpetrating by anti-feminist, reactionary, religious nutters designed to enslave people and deprive them of freedom and volition." But, being married has been mostly great. It took something like six years to seriously consider the topic, another two to do it. What I was looking for during our first few years of dating was someone I enjoyed talking to and spending time with.
What's the deal with who pays for first dates?In my experience, either both people assume they will split the bill, or the richer participant offers to pay. The poorer partner refuses at first, as is social custom, then gives way. That often aligns with gender, but it isn't explicitly because of gender.
#5 and #6 are really tough. #5 is hard, and I've made the wrong choice repeatedly, so offering advice seems silly. Within around fifty hours of conversation would be my guess, but I'm probably wrong. In my anecdotal experience, your approach to #6 sounds spot on. Unless the guy is actually autistic, having to demand for emotional intimacy is a bright red flag.
posted by eotvos at 10:44 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]
First figure out what you want. Make a big list. Work at this, get intimate with yourself, and get it out of your self what you want.
Figure out what common interest you might share with someone that could help glue things together, if the other stuff on the list is there.
Reread this list and check the feasibility considering what you know about people.
Personally, I think there is nothing weirder than dating. I think finding common interests, friends, activities, is a better route. In a sense, finding yourself and happy autonomy is important first. I know yeah, you have to have some lose ends to happily entangle. It is better if someone comes to you out of admiration and liking, rather than stated need for social interaction.
I know a couple of people who met through parents without partners.
posted by Oyéah at 10:44 AM on March 8, 2019
Figure out what common interest you might share with someone that could help glue things together, if the other stuff on the list is there.
Reread this list and check the feasibility considering what you know about people.
Personally, I think there is nothing weirder than dating. I think finding common interests, friends, activities, is a better route. In a sense, finding yourself and happy autonomy is important first. I know yeah, you have to have some lose ends to happily entangle. It is better if someone comes to you out of admiration and liking, rather than stated need for social interaction.
I know a couple of people who met through parents without partners.
posted by Oyéah at 10:44 AM on March 8, 2019
I've found that Captain Awkward has a pretty level headed and accessible approach to dating for those of us who maybe aren't super comfortable with the concept at first. This article is particularly great, but spending a little time in her archives might be beneficial.
posted by somanyamys at 11:52 AM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by somanyamys at 11:52 AM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
(1, 6) For any person who wants any kind of specific thing in a relationship, it's important to learn to ask for it, and to recognize when to walk away if you're not getting it. Asking only gets harder the longer you delay it, so it's worth learning to do it early -- which takes practice. This previous Ask has lots of suggestions on how to ask in socially-appropriate, low-pressure, self-caring ways: How to ask for what you need/want in dating?
(2, 5) I nth the therapist suggestion -- this is truly hard and you deserve to have someone in your corner.
As for when/how to disclose: It's ok for you to disclose as much or as little as you want, whenever you choose. Only you can decide what level/timing of disclosure feels like self-care and what feels like self-neglect (or re-traumatization). It sounds like you might be trying to figure out how to bring this up before having sex with someone? If so, you have a lot more options than you think. You CAN talk about it within the first few dates if you want; there are socially appropriate and low-pressure ways of doing that if you so choose. Some specific examples of things that would be totally ok to say very early -- even on a first date, if sex seems like a possibility at that point:
- It's ok for you to say, "I need to take it very slow around sex," and not explain why until you feel comfortable doing so.
- It's ok for you to say, "I have a history of sexual trauma so it's important for me to find a partner who is kind, communicative, and patient, and I like to say that right up front just to be clear."
- It's ok for you to stop in the middle of a kiss and say, "Hey, I need to pause this right now, this is moving too fast for me," and not explain why.
- It's ok for you to say nothing because you're not yet sure about the person you're talking to and you want to find out more before you decide if they're trustworthy.
Any of these (and many more options) are ok. A therapist can help you work through some options that feel right for you. If someone has a problem with any of this, that is THEIR problem and you have just successfully filtered them out.
(4) That's ok -- it sounds like maybe none of them were quite right for you in that moment. Sort of related: in the past, I've found the idea of "practice dating" very helpful. "This is just a practice date!" I'd tell myself. "There are no stakes whatsoever! I'm just here to learn, experiment, and have fun." While this is rarely 100% true, it's a very helpful mindset to have. It also allowed me to walk away from things that weren't working with a positive attitude. "Well, I definitely learned something there about what I do and don't like! I'm really glad I tried asking for X; even though I didn't get it, at least I tried, and I have more clarity now."
(6) Sounds like you made a good choice to walk away from a situation that wasn't working for you. You might find it helpful to think about this in terms of reciprocity, rather than asking/not-asking. Is only one of you putting in all the work, taking all the emotional risks, or making all the requests? If so, something is not right. If this guy wasn't matching the work you were putting in, the answer was not for you to do even more work. A relationship should feel balanced and mutual; it sounds like this one didn't.
Overall, I'm hearing that you're having some challenges in asking for what you need. You should know that dating is to "asking for what you need" as a rock climbing gym is to rock climbing. It's going to be a challenge and a lot of trial-and-error, so be kind to yourself while you're doing this work. I've never really found dating to be fun; I've always found it to be something closer to, "Very challenging but worthwhile energy expenditure" (much like going to the gym). I find it helps if you acknowledge the challenge, give yourself some "recovery days" (aka, lovely alone-time), and find yourself a cheering squad of friends (& hopefully a therapist) to give you a high five for trying.
I also have two resources to recommend:
- Scarletteen. This is a sexuality-ed website focused on teens, but it has a ton of great advice for anyone.
- How to Be An Adult In Relationships. Much-recommended on AskMe for a reason. If you're trying to figure out a new model for relationships, this is a great place to start.
posted by ourobouros at 12:02 PM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
(2, 5) I nth the therapist suggestion -- this is truly hard and you deserve to have someone in your corner.
As for when/how to disclose: It's ok for you to disclose as much or as little as you want, whenever you choose. Only you can decide what level/timing of disclosure feels like self-care and what feels like self-neglect (or re-traumatization). It sounds like you might be trying to figure out how to bring this up before having sex with someone? If so, you have a lot more options than you think. You CAN talk about it within the first few dates if you want; there are socially appropriate and low-pressure ways of doing that if you so choose. Some specific examples of things that would be totally ok to say very early -- even on a first date, if sex seems like a possibility at that point:
- It's ok for you to say, "I need to take it very slow around sex," and not explain why until you feel comfortable doing so.
- It's ok for you to say, "I have a history of sexual trauma so it's important for me to find a partner who is kind, communicative, and patient, and I like to say that right up front just to be clear."
- It's ok for you to stop in the middle of a kiss and say, "Hey, I need to pause this right now, this is moving too fast for me," and not explain why.
- It's ok for you to say nothing because you're not yet sure about the person you're talking to and you want to find out more before you decide if they're trustworthy.
Any of these (and many more options) are ok. A therapist can help you work through some options that feel right for you. If someone has a problem with any of this, that is THEIR problem and you have just successfully filtered them out.
(4) That's ok -- it sounds like maybe none of them were quite right for you in that moment. Sort of related: in the past, I've found the idea of "practice dating" very helpful. "This is just a practice date!" I'd tell myself. "There are no stakes whatsoever! I'm just here to learn, experiment, and have fun." While this is rarely 100% true, it's a very helpful mindset to have. It also allowed me to walk away from things that weren't working with a positive attitude. "Well, I definitely learned something there about what I do and don't like! I'm really glad I tried asking for X; even though I didn't get it, at least I tried, and I have more clarity now."
(6) Sounds like you made a good choice to walk away from a situation that wasn't working for you. You might find it helpful to think about this in terms of reciprocity, rather than asking/not-asking. Is only one of you putting in all the work, taking all the emotional risks, or making all the requests? If so, something is not right. If this guy wasn't matching the work you were putting in, the answer was not for you to do even more work. A relationship should feel balanced and mutual; it sounds like this one didn't.
Overall, I'm hearing that you're having some challenges in asking for what you need. You should know that dating is to "asking for what you need" as a rock climbing gym is to rock climbing. It's going to be a challenge and a lot of trial-and-error, so be kind to yourself while you're doing this work. I've never really found dating to be fun; I've always found it to be something closer to, "Very challenging but worthwhile energy expenditure" (much like going to the gym). I find it helps if you acknowledge the challenge, give yourself some "recovery days" (aka, lovely alone-time), and find yourself a cheering squad of friends (& hopefully a therapist) to give you a high five for trying.
I also have two resources to recommend:
- Scarletteen. This is a sexuality-ed website focused on teens, but it has a ton of great advice for anyone.
- How to Be An Adult In Relationships. Much-recommended on AskMe for a reason. If you're trying to figure out a new model for relationships, this is a great place to start.
posted by ourobouros at 12:02 PM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?" So far that's been the case and I don't even know if that's acceptable... But IDK it's pretty damn important to me to know if they just want to hook up or if they're looking for a relationship or something inbetween.
If I am to change, I need a partner who is patient with my process of learning to ask, which is very very hard for me in general (due to other aspects of my childhood history). How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though?
When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already.
Are you able to see a general pattern here?
I so, so strongly suggest therapy for you, not because you are so fucked up, but because this is something a therapist can help you achieve and it will make such a huge difference in your life.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:08 PM on March 8, 2019
If I am to change, I need a partner who is patient with my process of learning to ask, which is very very hard for me in general (due to other aspects of my childhood history). How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though?
When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already.
Are you able to see a general pattern here?
I so, so strongly suggest therapy for you, not because you are so fucked up, but because this is something a therapist can help you achieve and it will make such a huge difference in your life.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:08 PM on March 8, 2019
(1) In the periods when I'm looking for a serious relationship, I tell people that upfront before I even meet them in person. That weeds out some people. Otherwise, I assume it's casual until it starts to feel less casual. If the conversation hasn't happened organically at that point, I'll ask to help myself clarify my expectations. If they're vague, that tells me they're still casual (and possibly bad communicators).
(2) Are you saying that having sex around the third date is fine but that long-term, you will need help having better sex? Or that having sex before you're ready to have those conversations is not a good idea? If the latter, wait! If the former, you can wait to have the conversations when you start to feel comfortable. It's not too early to bring up before having third-date sex, though. Pre-sex conversations about what will make sex good for you are good. I often initiate conversations like that (albeit less fraught ones) while we still have clothes on.
(3) Norms are still that men pay for the first date. I usually offer to split the check when it arrives, and when he says he'll cover it (which happens 80% of the time), I don't argue. (I also make first dates short and cheap whenever possible, so often just go to a coffee shop and grab and pay for my own at the counter before we meet.)
After the first date, we take turns.
(4) I can't help you here; I'm in the same boat, and don't know if it's because I don't get that way anymore or because the dating field now that I'm older is frankly not as inspiring as it used to be. There is some truth in "the good ones are taken" unfortunately.
(5) Varies a lot depending on the person, how much time we spend together, and what I'm looking for at the time. If I'm aiming for a serious relationship and don't feel comfortable opening up after we've spent a month getting together fairly frequently, that generally means they're not a good fit for me. But that's just me! RE meeting friends, that also varies a lot. I'd expect them to tolerate going to a party with my friends after two months if I wanted them to. Again, just me.
(6) In that case, as you said, his actions spoke louder than words. You kept testing the waters and he didn't respond. That said, asking isn't a bad idea. A lot of people (a current long-term partner of mine included, to be honest) don't see that kind of intimacy as important and thus neither offer nor ask for it, but if they are reminded that it IS important to you, they sometimes step up.
posted by metasarah at 12:48 PM on March 8, 2019
(2) Are you saying that having sex around the third date is fine but that long-term, you will need help having better sex? Or that having sex before you're ready to have those conversations is not a good idea? If the latter, wait! If the former, you can wait to have the conversations when you start to feel comfortable. It's not too early to bring up before having third-date sex, though. Pre-sex conversations about what will make sex good for you are good. I often initiate conversations like that (albeit less fraught ones) while we still have clothes on.
(3) Norms are still that men pay for the first date. I usually offer to split the check when it arrives, and when he says he'll cover it (which happens 80% of the time), I don't argue. (I also make first dates short and cheap whenever possible, so often just go to a coffee shop and grab and pay for my own at the counter before we meet.)
After the first date, we take turns.
(4) I can't help you here; I'm in the same boat, and don't know if it's because I don't get that way anymore or because the dating field now that I'm older is frankly not as inspiring as it used to be. There is some truth in "the good ones are taken" unfortunately.
(5) Varies a lot depending on the person, how much time we spend together, and what I'm looking for at the time. If I'm aiming for a serious relationship and don't feel comfortable opening up after we've spent a month getting together fairly frequently, that generally means they're not a good fit for me. But that's just me! RE meeting friends, that also varies a lot. I'd expect them to tolerate going to a party with my friends after two months if I wanted them to. Again, just me.
(6) In that case, as you said, his actions spoke louder than words. You kept testing the waters and he didn't respond. That said, asking isn't a bad idea. A lot of people (a current long-term partner of mine included, to be honest) don't see that kind of intimacy as important and thus neither offer nor ask for it, but if they are reminded that it IS important to you, they sometimes step up.
posted by metasarah at 12:48 PM on March 8, 2019
(1) Let your profile do the work. If the profile lets you select options for 'short term dating', 'long-term dating', 'hookups', etc., use those. It helps if you add it to the body of the text, that you are looking for X, particularly when you have kids and want/don't want more (or whatever).
(2) Better sex is going to depend on the partner. There's nothing wrong with saying beforehand 'I have certain triggers and I need patience'. There's no problem keeping it vague at that point. They can either accept your 'terms' for sex, or get out.
(3) As a guy, I have no problem paying for the first date, and expect to do so. It's just how it goes. A thank you will go very, very far, however.
(4) Dating is simply a numbers-game, and you have to go through enough of them to get the ones that cause butterflies. Eventually you will. That you haven't yet is no reflection on you or the men you've dated.
(5) I would leave the heavy stuff for after the first date. The first date is only to find out about basic compatibility, and to see that no-one is axe-murdery. If it turns out to be more fun than basic compatibility, great. Low-to-no expectations for the first date, and then they become less fraught and easier. Heavy stuff can come in later, when it's clear that this is indeed going somewhere.
(6) Emotional intimacy is totally going to depend on the guy. The guy you described was not interested in it and was not the guy for you.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:27 PM on March 8, 2019
(2) Better sex is going to depend on the partner. There's nothing wrong with saying beforehand 'I have certain triggers and I need patience'. There's no problem keeping it vague at that point. They can either accept your 'terms' for sex, or get out.
(3) As a guy, I have no problem paying for the first date, and expect to do so. It's just how it goes. A thank you will go very, very far, however.
(4) Dating is simply a numbers-game, and you have to go through enough of them to get the ones that cause butterflies. Eventually you will. That you haven't yet is no reflection on you or the men you've dated.
(5) I would leave the heavy stuff for after the first date. The first date is only to find out about basic compatibility, and to see that no-one is axe-murdery. If it turns out to be more fun than basic compatibility, great. Low-to-no expectations for the first date, and then they become less fraught and easier. Heavy stuff can come in later, when it's clear that this is indeed going somewhere.
(6) Emotional intimacy is totally going to depend on the guy. The guy you described was not interested in it and was not the guy for you.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:27 PM on March 8, 2019
Oh hi! I'm a woman in my 40s and am now a veteran of post-divorce dating for a year and a half! I could talk about this all day and I just sent you a message, too!
Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?" So far that's been the case and I don't even know if that's acceptable or how to do it properly.
My only hesitancy is answering this question sometimes is that I'm not sure if someone is asking, "What do you see with me?" or "What are you looking for generally?" Also, what apps are you using? If you're on Bumble or OKCupid, you can specify that you're looking for a relationship and see if folks indicate that they are as well. Sometimes people include this in their profiles. I think it's fine to say something like, "Interested in a LTR." I mean, what do you want? You're saying that you want to have the right expectations. If you're open to casual, great, but if you want something else, I think it's totally fine to address this soon. I've sent and received messages on apps, before the first date, saying, "So, what are you looking for?" Ask this question as soon as you want to know the answer. I've seen men raise this, both in profiles and messages.
How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though?
I don't know the answer for you. There are a few things I've learned how to address early on, and it's been a great way to learn to speak more about my wants and needs. I had to practice. It's getting easier. I would be glad to speak with you privately about this if you'd like.
I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far
Okay, I've been on something like first dates with 45 men over the past year and a half. Butterflies? I would say I've felt chemistry, real chemistry, on five of those dates, and four of the five turned into something a bit more. There were other men I had great conversations with, and a few I dated more to see what developed. In all of the cases of the real chemistry, it was quick and lasting, and I felt just as giggly (ahem) as I did when I was young. In fact, I've had to way pull back on my impulse to talk about one or two fellas all the damn time with everyone. This is the "dating can be superfun" part of it. Maybe that's why you're not having fun? Because you're going on several dates with guys even when you're not exactly feeling it?
I have a bit more perspective than when I was in my early 20s, but I don't really keep seeing men if I don't find them interesting and exciting.
When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already.
Yeah, this was him bullshitting you. You did ask for more intimacy: you invited to hang out with your friends and you sent him your writing! Those are clearly invitations to connect. And his refusal to read your writing could easily be read as a rejection, as a denial of intimacy. There are many people who say they want greater intimacy but maybe aren't super capable of it. I think that was your guy.
It's interesting that you conflate meeting friends with emotional intimacy. I'm starting to think it might be okay for people I'm dating to meet my friends sooner rather than later, in part because I'd welcome my friends' reads on them. But there isn't a timeline for emotional intimacy. That guy I had the super chemistry with? We dated for months, really, before we started developing true emotional intimacy. But there was another guy where we became close pretty quickly. He lived out of town and we ended up talking on the phone quite a bit. I'd say we were sharing an awful lot within a month of meeting, but we had a high volume of phone and text contact.
One of the advantages of all these dates: I have become pretty good at being casual and comfortable on first dates; having low expectations (which helps a lot); ending dates pretty quickly if I'm not having fun; and judging chemistry and if a guy and I are on the same page. I think, anyway. So I encourage you to go on a lot more first dates.
I could write a novel but I'll stop here.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:22 PM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?" So far that's been the case and I don't even know if that's acceptable or how to do it properly.
My only hesitancy is answering this question sometimes is that I'm not sure if someone is asking, "What do you see with me?" or "What are you looking for generally?" Also, what apps are you using? If you're on Bumble or OKCupid, you can specify that you're looking for a relationship and see if folks indicate that they are as well. Sometimes people include this in their profiles. I think it's fine to say something like, "Interested in a LTR." I mean, what do you want? You're saying that you want to have the right expectations. If you're open to casual, great, but if you want something else, I think it's totally fine to address this soon. I've sent and received messages on apps, before the first date, saying, "So, what are you looking for?" Ask this question as soon as you want to know the answer. I've seen men raise this, both in profiles and messages.
How do I ask for patience or help from a partner when asking is hard, though?
I don't know the answer for you. There are a few things I've learned how to address early on, and it's been a great way to learn to speak more about my wants and needs. I had to practice. It's getting easier. I would be glad to speak with you privately about this if you'd like.
I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far
Okay, I've been on something like first dates with 45 men over the past year and a half. Butterflies? I would say I've felt chemistry, real chemistry, on five of those dates, and four of the five turned into something a bit more. There were other men I had great conversations with, and a few I dated more to see what developed. In all of the cases of the real chemistry, it was quick and lasting, and I felt just as giggly (ahem) as I did when I was young. In fact, I've had to way pull back on my impulse to talk about one or two fellas all the damn time with everyone. This is the "dating can be superfun" part of it. Maybe that's why you're not having fun? Because you're going on several dates with guys even when you're not exactly feeling it?
I have a bit more perspective than when I was in my early 20s, but I don't really keep seeing men if I don't find them interesting and exciting.
When we broke up, he said I should have asked for more emotional intimacy if that's what I wanted, but I felt (and said) that if the relationship was meant to be more intimate, it would have happened already.
Yeah, this was him bullshitting you. You did ask for more intimacy: you invited to hang out with your friends and you sent him your writing! Those are clearly invitations to connect. And his refusal to read your writing could easily be read as a rejection, as a denial of intimacy. There are many people who say they want greater intimacy but maybe aren't super capable of it. I think that was your guy.
It's interesting that you conflate meeting friends with emotional intimacy. I'm starting to think it might be okay for people I'm dating to meet my friends sooner rather than later, in part because I'd welcome my friends' reads on them. But there isn't a timeline for emotional intimacy. That guy I had the super chemistry with? We dated for months, really, before we started developing true emotional intimacy. But there was another guy where we became close pretty quickly. He lived out of town and we ended up talking on the phone quite a bit. I'd say we were sharing an awful lot within a month of meeting, but we had a high volume of phone and text contact.
One of the advantages of all these dates: I have become pretty good at being casual and comfortable on first dates; having low expectations (which helps a lot); ending dates pretty quickly if I'm not having fun; and judging chemistry and if a guy and I are on the same page. I think, anyway. So I encourage you to go on a lot more first dates.
I could write a novel but I'll stop here.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:22 PM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
(I'm a man.)
(1) Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?"
FWIW, I broached that subject with my current wife, after maybe three dates. We were mid-twenties and, it turned out, both looking to get married and have children. So, no, it doesn't have to be always you.
(3) What's the deal with who pays for first dates?
I've resigned myself to paying for the first, but you'd definitely get brownie points for (seriously) offering to split it.
It wasn't much of an issue in practice for me, but only because I went on very few first dates and they tended to be pretty cheap dates, like tea and a scone. I suspect if I were more popular I would care more, and if I were more affluent I would care less.
(4) I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far, including the guy who lasted six months.
I've never felt butterflies for anyone I've dated. I honestly don't even know what that means. I don't think this is as universal an experience as people make it out to be.
(5) The most groan-worthy question of all, I know, but I have to ask: what's a rough timeline for how emotionally involved people get?
I tend to be very private, so I would be ready to hear such a disclosure after three or four dates, and if it weren't relevant to our relationship, I wouldn't hold it against you if you never told me about your assault.
(6)...I wouldn't have trusted him if he had changed in response to me asking.
Most of what you've said here I would consider within the normal range of reasonable, but I find this last bit odd. If he were to do what you asked of him, this would make you trust him less? Why?
I guess I can understand the desire for him to be so naturally compatible with you that you wouldn't need to ask. I think you'll limit your pool unnecessarily by holding out for that. There are a lot of perfectly serviceable men who can behave one way or another depending on what they think you want, and I don't think there has to be anything less genuine about consciously choosing to do something for you.
This might have been a more reasonable filter in a more homogeneous setting where people's desires were more predictable. I think many of us don't live in such an environment, and that's why explicit communication has become more fashionable.
Speaking of explicit communication: do you have friends who know you're looking for dates? Referrals by mutual acquaintances can be a great filter. I have a wildly unscientific theory that the 15 minute tea-and-a-scone pre-date thing arose in response to the mostly blind style of modern dating, where you literally might not know whether this guy will agree with you on the age of the earth. Our ancestors didn't need to do that, because they courted within their existing social circles, and membership in those circles guaranteed a certain level of compatibility.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:47 PM on March 8, 2019
(1) Is it really always going to be up to me, as the woman of a heterosexual dating pair, to ask "What are you looking for?"
FWIW, I broached that subject with my current wife, after maybe three dates. We were mid-twenties and, it turned out, both looking to get married and have children. So, no, it doesn't have to be always you.
(3) What's the deal with who pays for first dates?
I've resigned myself to paying for the first, but you'd definitely get brownie points for (seriously) offering to split it.
It wasn't much of an issue in practice for me, but only because I went on very few first dates and they tended to be pretty cheap dates, like tea and a scone. I suspect if I were more popular I would care more, and if I were more affluent I would care less.
(4) I have yet to feel anything even in the vicinity of "butterflies" for any of the men I've dated so far, including the guy who lasted six months.
I've never felt butterflies for anyone I've dated. I honestly don't even know what that means. I don't think this is as universal an experience as people make it out to be.
(5) The most groan-worthy question of all, I know, but I have to ask: what's a rough timeline for how emotionally involved people get?
I tend to be very private, so I would be ready to hear such a disclosure after three or four dates, and if it weren't relevant to our relationship, I wouldn't hold it against you if you never told me about your assault.
(6)...I wouldn't have trusted him if he had changed in response to me asking.
Most of what you've said here I would consider within the normal range of reasonable, but I find this last bit odd. If he were to do what you asked of him, this would make you trust him less? Why?
I guess I can understand the desire for him to be so naturally compatible with you that you wouldn't need to ask. I think you'll limit your pool unnecessarily by holding out for that. There are a lot of perfectly serviceable men who can behave one way or another depending on what they think you want, and I don't think there has to be anything less genuine about consciously choosing to do something for you.
This might have been a more reasonable filter in a more homogeneous setting where people's desires were more predictable. I think many of us don't live in such an environment, and that's why explicit communication has become more fashionable.
Speaking of explicit communication: do you have friends who know you're looking for dates? Referrals by mutual acquaintances can be a great filter. I have a wildly unscientific theory that the 15 minute tea-and-a-scone pre-date thing arose in response to the mostly blind style of modern dating, where you literally might not know whether this guy will agree with you on the age of the earth. Our ancestors didn't need to do that, because they courted within their existing social circles, and membership in those circles guaranteed a certain level of compatibility.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:47 PM on March 8, 2019
Re: the exclusivity conversation. In my experience--and this is totally anecdotal and not at all reflective of all men or all situations--men stink at this. I've never had a man bring it up.
The conversation may be more productive if you're a little more specific about what you're asking. "What are you looking for?" is a pretty ambiguous question, and I can see how it would make some people afraid of saying the wrong thing. Framing it as "hey, I'm interested in exclusity/a LTR/something more serious etc etc, are you?" is a lot more to the point and it doesn't necessarily imply that there's a right and wrong answer. Just something to consider. Good luck.
posted by Amy93 at 9:26 PM on March 8, 2019
The conversation may be more productive if you're a little more specific about what you're asking. "What are you looking for?" is a pretty ambiguous question, and I can see how it would make some people afraid of saying the wrong thing. Framing it as "hey, I'm interested in exclusity/a LTR/something more serious etc etc, are you?" is a lot more to the point and it doesn't necessarily imply that there's a right and wrong answer. Just something to consider. Good luck.
posted by Amy93 at 9:26 PM on March 8, 2019
You can use dating to learn more about yourself, what you want, and how dating works. Second, be clear with yourself about what you want in a partner, and what kind of relationship you want. If you’re not clear on those things, see point 1 again. Nowhere in your post do you tell us what kind of relationship you want (one time hook-up, FWB, serious long-term relationship or LTR), so should I just assume you want a serious LTR, based on your questions 1 and 6? Whatever type of relationship you want, just be clear with yourself why (e.g. for an LTR, maybe you’re just not into hookups, you want to explore sex safely with a partner given your trauma, you value emotional intimacy, etc.)
I see early dating as having a series of conversations, getting to know each other, getting a sense of that person, who they are, what they’re like, and most importantly, if YOU like that person. So often I see (mostly younger) women who really want the guy to like THEM, and so they’re not thinking about whether they like the guy. Always centre yourself and think about what you want, like if you want to see him again, if you want to sleep with him, if you want to tell him something about yourself. Put yourself first at all times. Communicate these things and pay attention to his responses. People say on ask mefi all the time “When people tell you who they are, listen.” Also, if something feels a bit off about him, do not let it slide! Listen to your instincts. I see so many women saying that something felt a bit off about the guy and she just brushes it off and they unfortunately learn the consequences of not listening to themselves.
To your questions:
1. Maybe it is up to the woman to say this? I don’t see that as a bad thing because you know what you want and you’re seeing if he wants to same thing by asking. If you want a serious LTR and you wanna make sure that he’s not just looking for a hookup, there’s no reason to be coy about that. Now, even if he says (in his profile or in PMs or IRL) that he also wants a serious LTR, that does’t mean he’d still make a great partner for you. You have to establish mutual interest and compatibility to see if you want to continue seeing each other, and then if you want to be in an LTR with each other. Maybe you already know this, but guys with shirtless pics tend to be looking for hookups.
So I would ask the question after you know you’re both interested in each other and there’s some chemistry. You’re basically asking this to say to them you like them, and you’d like to explore the potential of a serious LTR with them. It’s an ongoing conversation. Maybe sometime down the line you realize he’s not for you, and that’s fine. If he doesn’t feel the same about you, then end it. If he doesn’t answer positively, maybe he doesn’t want an LTR, or he doesn’t want one with you. Either way, I don’t think it really matters.
2. Definitely find a therapist to work through your sexual trauma with. Don’t do this alone. If you still want to have sex with your dates, I’ve found the “sex by the third date” rule to actually hold true. This does not mean you HAVE to have sex by the third date. It just means that if there’s mutual attraction and interest, sex typically happens by the third date. And therefore, that’s a good time to bring it up. Suggested script: “I’m really attracted to you and I’d like to have sex with you at some point. I do have a few triggers, I also tend to freeze up rather than ask for what I want, so could you be patient and gentle with me?” You basically want someone who values consent, boundaries, communication, respect and can read non-verbal cues. And, no, that is not too much to ask for in the least. It’s baseline.
3. Finally, an easier question! I do the same thing that I do when out with friends: look at the bill, see what my share is, and pull out my card/cash. If he says, “let me pay” I say ok, and let him pay. If there’s a second date, you can say, “I’ll get it this time.” Basically I’m fine with paying for myself, and I’m fine if he wants to pay.
4. This "it's mostly been a chore to give up my lovely alone-time to hang out with them, even if they're fun to talk to or fun to have sex with or whatever" is more telling than not feeling butterflies. If meeting up with this person feels like a chore, don’t continue to do it!
5. I would say when you feel good enough about him to want to introduce him to your friends. Maybe a month? Also, this Captain Awkward post may some good advice for you.
6. This is a great question. If more emotional intimacy hasn't happened organically, it could mean that you’re just not compatible and he may not be into you or whatever else. At which point you can either test that out or end it. You can talk about it, but I feel like that conversation would be pretty awkward. It’s almost like, if you need to have that conversation, maybe he isn’t the right guy for you? It's weird that he didn’t want to read something that you published, i.e. already in the public domain. You were inviting him to read it so that’s not intruding on your personal life. That was his way of saying he’s not interested in the things that are important to you.
TL;DR: always pay attention whether you like the person, how you feel about them, what you want with that person, what you want generally in life, and if being with that person aligns with that.
posted by foxjacket at 12:52 AM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
I see early dating as having a series of conversations, getting to know each other, getting a sense of that person, who they are, what they’re like, and most importantly, if YOU like that person. So often I see (mostly younger) women who really want the guy to like THEM, and so they’re not thinking about whether they like the guy. Always centre yourself and think about what you want, like if you want to see him again, if you want to sleep with him, if you want to tell him something about yourself. Put yourself first at all times. Communicate these things and pay attention to his responses. People say on ask mefi all the time “When people tell you who they are, listen.” Also, if something feels a bit off about him, do not let it slide! Listen to your instincts. I see so many women saying that something felt a bit off about the guy and she just brushes it off and they unfortunately learn the consequences of not listening to themselves.
To your questions:
1. Maybe it is up to the woman to say this? I don’t see that as a bad thing because you know what you want and you’re seeing if he wants to same thing by asking. If you want a serious LTR and you wanna make sure that he’s not just looking for a hookup, there’s no reason to be coy about that. Now, even if he says (in his profile or in PMs or IRL) that he also wants a serious LTR, that does’t mean he’d still make a great partner for you. You have to establish mutual interest and compatibility to see if you want to continue seeing each other, and then if you want to be in an LTR with each other. Maybe you already know this, but guys with shirtless pics tend to be looking for hookups.
So I would ask the question after you know you’re both interested in each other and there’s some chemistry. You’re basically asking this to say to them you like them, and you’d like to explore the potential of a serious LTR with them. It’s an ongoing conversation. Maybe sometime down the line you realize he’s not for you, and that’s fine. If he doesn’t feel the same about you, then end it. If he doesn’t answer positively, maybe he doesn’t want an LTR, or he doesn’t want one with you. Either way, I don’t think it really matters.
2. Definitely find a therapist to work through your sexual trauma with. Don’t do this alone. If you still want to have sex with your dates, I’ve found the “sex by the third date” rule to actually hold true. This does not mean you HAVE to have sex by the third date. It just means that if there’s mutual attraction and interest, sex typically happens by the third date. And therefore, that’s a good time to bring it up. Suggested script: “I’m really attracted to you and I’d like to have sex with you at some point. I do have a few triggers, I also tend to freeze up rather than ask for what I want, so could you be patient and gentle with me?” You basically want someone who values consent, boundaries, communication, respect and can read non-verbal cues. And, no, that is not too much to ask for in the least. It’s baseline.
3. Finally, an easier question! I do the same thing that I do when out with friends: look at the bill, see what my share is, and pull out my card/cash. If he says, “let me pay” I say ok, and let him pay. If there’s a second date, you can say, “I’ll get it this time.” Basically I’m fine with paying for myself, and I’m fine if he wants to pay.
4. This "it's mostly been a chore to give up my lovely alone-time to hang out with them, even if they're fun to talk to or fun to have sex with or whatever" is more telling than not feeling butterflies. If meeting up with this person feels like a chore, don’t continue to do it!
5. I would say when you feel good enough about him to want to introduce him to your friends. Maybe a month? Also, this Captain Awkward post may some good advice for you.
6. This is a great question. If more emotional intimacy hasn't happened organically, it could mean that you’re just not compatible and he may not be into you or whatever else. At which point you can either test that out or end it. You can talk about it, but I feel like that conversation would be pretty awkward. It’s almost like, if you need to have that conversation, maybe he isn’t the right guy for you? It's weird that he didn’t want to read something that you published, i.e. already in the public domain. You were inviting him to read it so that’s not intruding on your personal life. That was his way of saying he’s not interested in the things that are important to you.
TL;DR: always pay attention whether you like the person, how you feel about them, what you want with that person, what you want generally in life, and if being with that person aligns with that.
posted by foxjacket at 12:52 AM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
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And overall, while I don't know much in general, I think you're right on your point 6 -- if it's going to work out, emotional intimacy will happen organically. You weren't weird, he was standoffish.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:46 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]