Help, our landlord's daughter lives downstairs and aggressively hates us
February 22, 2019 4:36 PM Subscribe
We live above our landlord's adult daughter, who 1.) is generally very angry and aggressive, 2.) does and is upset by confusing things, and 3.) hates us. This has been escalating for almost a year and we don't know how to handle it. Details inside.
My husband and I have been renting the top half of a two-story suburban home for almost two years now. Our landlords, an elderly couple, live in the house next door, and while we rarely interact with them face-to-face, they've been very kind and respectful; we love them. However, their adult daughter lives in the lower half of the house we rent. We have only interacted with her in person once, just to shake hands and say hi, when we first moved in. We also texted her early on to let us know if we're ever being too loud or anything, which she never has, and we've left a little Christmas present for her and her son every year and gotten a thank-you text in return. Since early last spring, however, we've (or she's, I guess) had a slew of issues.
First, there was the Front Door Problem. She started leaving notes on the front door (which is the only part of the house we share) saying it needs to be closed and locked at all times, which we always do, and she...doesn't always do. Almost always when we leave the house after her, she's locked the latch behind her, but not the deadbolt. We are careful to always lock both locks. When we texted her about the notes (after about 9 months of their being put up once every few weeks for ~12 - 24 hours at a time and then inexplicably taken down) she said she's found the door unlocked and wide open (???) and that she's worried about break-ins, which doesn't really line up with never locking the deadbolt. A couple months ago, she came home after us, and I heard her slamming things and screaming at the top of her lungs about how "those people" need to stop doing...[something inaudible]...to the locks on the "fucking doors". But she had to have been mad about the door being locked, since she had left it unlocked and I had locked it after coming home myself. Which doesn't make sense! You said you wanted them locked at all times!
We also hear her making fun of or mocking us, always referring to us as "those [fucking] people," or going off about how we make the house look "trashy" or "disgusting" because we've left our Christmas tree up too long (I like having it up for some of the miserable post-Christmas winter, it's nice) or not scrapped our car that died last year. While I feel I should be able to have whatever decorations I want in my own home, the car is our one real Bad Tenant mistake, in my opinion, and I admit we need to take care of it. But it's not up on blocks or out by the street or really visible to anyone who doesn't come around the side of the house, and no one has said anything directly to us about it. Regardless, it's a huge downer and kind of unnerving to just hear someone ragging on you, thinking (?) you can't hear them, for doing things that aren't hurting anybody. It sucks to be seemingly hated for no real reason. Once, when I was putting the trash out, she and her son came home and went to open the back door, where the trash cans are. When she saw I was there, she wordlessly snatched him up to go use the front door instead, like I'm some sort of monster.
We don't know what to do. She's a big screamer/stomper/slammer in general, not just about us, so we are really loathe and honestly a little scared to confront her further in any way. To be fair, her life seems really stressful, and we definitely don't want to add to that or do anything besides get along. We don't know what she's telling her parents, but really don't want to not have our lease renewed because of any of this, and we hear her complain about us frequently enough that she must have said stuff to them by now. We love our apartment, the location, the rent, and we're willing to handle her noise etc. because that's just something you put up with when you rent instead of buy. We're worried saying anything to our landlords will either 1.) put them off us, for casting any aspersions on their daughter or her behavior, or 2.) cause them to say something to her, and there will be even more hostile behavior or anger on her side. But hearing her scream specifically about us and be violently angry is really stressful, and I'm anxious that one day she might finally come up our stairs and start banging on our door. I think we're generally fine neighbors--speak and move quietly, only have people over once or twice a year, no loud music, try to limit any unavoidably loud activities to when they aren't home--and don't really deserve this degree of vitriol. We will almost certainly be moving in the summer of 2020 and just need to be here another year. Besides making little moves to placate her indirectly, like scrapping the car, what should we do? Should we talk to our landlords? Any advice would be appreciated. (Bonus points if you can figure out what she wants to be done with the door locks!)
My husband and I have been renting the top half of a two-story suburban home for almost two years now. Our landlords, an elderly couple, live in the house next door, and while we rarely interact with them face-to-face, they've been very kind and respectful; we love them. However, their adult daughter lives in the lower half of the house we rent. We have only interacted with her in person once, just to shake hands and say hi, when we first moved in. We also texted her early on to let us know if we're ever being too loud or anything, which she never has, and we've left a little Christmas present for her and her son every year and gotten a thank-you text in return. Since early last spring, however, we've (or she's, I guess) had a slew of issues.
First, there was the Front Door Problem. She started leaving notes on the front door (which is the only part of the house we share) saying it needs to be closed and locked at all times, which we always do, and she...doesn't always do. Almost always when we leave the house after her, she's locked the latch behind her, but not the deadbolt. We are careful to always lock both locks. When we texted her about the notes (after about 9 months of their being put up once every few weeks for ~12 - 24 hours at a time and then inexplicably taken down) she said she's found the door unlocked and wide open (???) and that she's worried about break-ins, which doesn't really line up with never locking the deadbolt. A couple months ago, she came home after us, and I heard her slamming things and screaming at the top of her lungs about how "those people" need to stop doing...[something inaudible]...to the locks on the "fucking doors". But she had to have been mad about the door being locked, since she had left it unlocked and I had locked it after coming home myself. Which doesn't make sense! You said you wanted them locked at all times!
We also hear her making fun of or mocking us, always referring to us as "those [fucking] people," or going off about how we make the house look "trashy" or "disgusting" because we've left our Christmas tree up too long (I like having it up for some of the miserable post-Christmas winter, it's nice) or not scrapped our car that died last year. While I feel I should be able to have whatever decorations I want in my own home, the car is our one real Bad Tenant mistake, in my opinion, and I admit we need to take care of it. But it's not up on blocks or out by the street or really visible to anyone who doesn't come around the side of the house, and no one has said anything directly to us about it. Regardless, it's a huge downer and kind of unnerving to just hear someone ragging on you, thinking (?) you can't hear them, for doing things that aren't hurting anybody. It sucks to be seemingly hated for no real reason. Once, when I was putting the trash out, she and her son came home and went to open the back door, where the trash cans are. When she saw I was there, she wordlessly snatched him up to go use the front door instead, like I'm some sort of monster.
We don't know what to do. She's a big screamer/stomper/slammer in general, not just about us, so we are really loathe and honestly a little scared to confront her further in any way. To be fair, her life seems really stressful, and we definitely don't want to add to that or do anything besides get along. We don't know what she's telling her parents, but really don't want to not have our lease renewed because of any of this, and we hear her complain about us frequently enough that she must have said stuff to them by now. We love our apartment, the location, the rent, and we're willing to handle her noise etc. because that's just something you put up with when you rent instead of buy. We're worried saying anything to our landlords will either 1.) put them off us, for casting any aspersions on their daughter or her behavior, or 2.) cause them to say something to her, and there will be even more hostile behavior or anger on her side. But hearing her scream specifically about us and be violently angry is really stressful, and I'm anxious that one day she might finally come up our stairs and start banging on our door. I think we're generally fine neighbors--speak and move quietly, only have people over once or twice a year, no loud music, try to limit any unavoidably loud activities to when they aren't home--and don't really deserve this degree of vitriol. We will almost certainly be moving in the summer of 2020 and just need to be here another year. Besides making little moves to placate her indirectly, like scrapping the car, what should we do? Should we talk to our landlords? Any advice would be appreciated. (Bonus points if you can figure out what she wants to be done with the door locks!)
None of her behavior sounds okay, but I'll make a guess at the deadbolt thing -- I've had a deadbolt before that required you to insert two keys into separate locks and turn them both at once (or something like that) but at any rate it required both hands, didn't really work reliably when I tried to do it, and could occasionally be frustrating, so I lived dangerously and didn't generally use the deadbolt when I was out. Sometimes maintenance people would come into my apartment and deadbolt it on their way out and it would be difficult for me to get back inside because I wasn't used to maneuvering the deadbolt.
So maybe it's something like finding the deadbolt difficult to unlock + poorly managed and inappropriate anger.
posted by space snail at 4:55 PM on February 22, 2019
So maybe it's something like finding the deadbolt difficult to unlock + poorly managed and inappropriate anger.
posted by space snail at 4:55 PM on February 22, 2019
It seems like the landlord should consider installing a keypad/smartphone lock. They are popular with people who operate AirBnBs these days and they aren't that expensive - most are less than $200. If the lock is her primary concern, this seems like a pretty seamless way to solve that issue.
posted by Ostara at 5:02 PM on February 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Ostara at 5:02 PM on February 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
Dang, she seems so very angry with you for some reason. I wonder what that reason is. Maybe her parents know what she is really like. Maybe she told them she wants the house to herself and they said no. That is just one possibility.
I think the son unlocking the door is a possibility. Or maybe she thinks she is locking the door but she turns the key the wrong way.
I don't know if it's worth trying to ask her whether you've done something to upset her. It's odd that she sent thank-you notes in previous years but is now so openly hostile. I don't think I could live there in that situation unless something changed. I would probably try talking to her or talking to the landlord, but for all the reasons you stated that might not work. And I would find a new place to live. But you have to decide what you can put up with. You do have a big list of positives about the place.
posted by Glinn at 5:06 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think the son unlocking the door is a possibility. Or maybe she thinks she is locking the door but she turns the key the wrong way.
I don't know if it's worth trying to ask her whether you've done something to upset her. It's odd that she sent thank-you notes in previous years but is now so openly hostile. I don't think I could live there in that situation unless something changed. I would probably try talking to her or talking to the landlord, but for all the reasons you stated that might not work. And I would find a new place to live. But you have to decide what you can put up with. You do have a big list of positives about the place.
posted by Glinn at 5:06 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
Abrupt onset behavior changes like that are...probably not anything you did, and likely not something she can control or maybe she won't/can't obtain help doing so.
I would have one conversation with your landlord, very matter of fact: "Since around X date, Downstairs Neighbor has been increasingly hostile and paranoid. Were you already aware of that? Do we need to assume it's going to continue? Okay, thank you, we'll take that into consideration in our future decision-making."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:36 PM on February 22, 2019 [22 favorites]
I would have one conversation with your landlord, very matter of fact: "Since around X date, Downstairs Neighbor has been increasingly hostile and paranoid. Were you already aware of that? Do we need to assume it's going to continue? Okay, thank you, we'll take that into consideration in our future decision-making."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:36 PM on February 22, 2019 [22 favorites]
I was stressed out just reading about this. I don’t think there is much you can do but to continue to be polite and kind. She sounds like she may have a mental health situation to deal with, and I feel terrible that there is a child involved as well. The parents will most certainly side with their daughter regardless as to how irrational she is being, so laying low until you move out seems like the way to go.
Also 1-877-Kars-4Kids will take your car today!
posted by defreckled at 5:42 PM on February 22, 2019 [15 favorites]
Also 1-877-Kars-4Kids will take your car today!
posted by defreckled at 5:42 PM on February 22, 2019 [15 favorites]
She sounds mentally ill and very possibly unsafe. Do you absolutely *have* to stay there until summer 2020, like your lease runs that long?
You can't complain to the landlord because they will be on her side. She won't calm down. Your only way of getting peace is to leave. You can't enjoy the rest of the place with her throwing loud fits and crap.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
You can't complain to the landlord because they will be on her side. She won't calm down. Your only way of getting peace is to leave. You can't enjoy the rest of the place with her throwing loud fits and crap.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
I would ignore all of this and just continue living your lives, minding your business, enjoying your slightly unseasonable holiday tree, until someone brings it up to you directly. Either through her confronting you in some way, or through this becoming an actual problem with your actual landlords.
There's a very strong chance this is just general blowing off steam in a safe-ish direction (especially if she thinks you can't hear her). She might be an unpleasant person who you are destined never to be friends with. Shit, maybe she just doesn't like you for no reason and nothing you did. Which is fine, sometimes people don't like you. There is a slight chance that she is going to make trouble for you in the future, but even there, I still think it's better to wait for the trouble to come to you.
One thing you may want to do is to prepare how you will handle it if this does become an actual problem with real consequences. Also, go ahead and get rid of the car, sure. I wouldn't worry about the door locking thing unless directly confronted. Then you can have a real conversation that makes rational sense rather than reading the tea leaves of stomping and cryptic notes.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:48 PM on February 22, 2019 [13 favorites]
There's a very strong chance this is just general blowing off steam in a safe-ish direction (especially if she thinks you can't hear her). She might be an unpleasant person who you are destined never to be friends with. Shit, maybe she just doesn't like you for no reason and nothing you did. Which is fine, sometimes people don't like you. There is a slight chance that she is going to make trouble for you in the future, but even there, I still think it's better to wait for the trouble to come to you.
One thing you may want to do is to prepare how you will handle it if this does become an actual problem with real consequences. Also, go ahead and get rid of the car, sure. I wouldn't worry about the door locking thing unless directly confronted. Then you can have a real conversation that makes rational sense rather than reading the tea leaves of stomping and cryptic notes.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:48 PM on February 22, 2019 [13 favorites]
Those are calm and reasonable answers upthread. You should consider them. Personally in this case I disagree with the other posters here who advocate appeasement. The following is how I would deal with it-- I would not put up with that. You need to move. There is no safe way to work this out. The landlord will always side with his daughter, even when they know she is wrong. I stayed in some of these situations when I didn't have to, and I regret it today. You need to move. There is no other answer.
posted by seasparrow at 6:12 PM on February 22, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by seasparrow at 6:12 PM on February 22, 2019 [26 favorites]
You already know you can't go on like this forever. Having your living space permeated by a cloud of hostility is untenable. Walking on eggshells around someone who lashes out no matter what, someone who lives in your house, sounds a lot like being stuck in an abusive relationship. That's no way to live. I feel bad for the kid, too.
Actually, because there's a kid here, I think I would choose my strategy a little differently than I might otherwise do. I think I would go to the landlord, face-to-face. I would ask for a meeting with them. It sounds like one possibility here is that your downstairs neighbor's mental health has recently deteriorated somewhat, and she very well may need a little parental attention to get her back on track. It's possible that her parents know that she can be like this and can help her.
I think if you very, very gently explain to your landlords what's been going on, and frame it as a concern—hey your daughter's seemed a little out of sorts lately, it's really unlike her, we thought you should know, we just want to get along, happy to have the car removed ASAP, is there anything else we should do, not do, etc. to help smooth this over—they might intervene in everyone's best interest, and also they might check on their grandkid a little more.
Or they might reflexively defend their daughter and you'd have to start looking for a new place, but I feel like "look for a new place" is already your best alternative so you're no worse off than when you started. It's worth a shot, anyway.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:13 PM on February 22, 2019 [22 favorites]
Actually, because there's a kid here, I think I would choose my strategy a little differently than I might otherwise do. I think I would go to the landlord, face-to-face. I would ask for a meeting with them. It sounds like one possibility here is that your downstairs neighbor's mental health has recently deteriorated somewhat, and she very well may need a little parental attention to get her back on track. It's possible that her parents know that she can be like this and can help her.
I think if you very, very gently explain to your landlords what's been going on, and frame it as a concern—hey your daughter's seemed a little out of sorts lately, it's really unlike her, we thought you should know, we just want to get along, happy to have the car removed ASAP, is there anything else we should do, not do, etc. to help smooth this over—they might intervene in everyone's best interest, and also they might check on their grandkid a little more.
Or they might reflexively defend their daughter and you'd have to start looking for a new place, but I feel like "look for a new place" is already your best alternative so you're no worse off than when you started. It's worth a shot, anyway.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:13 PM on February 22, 2019 [22 favorites]
I would have one conversation with your landlord, very matter of fact
This is also my advice. Sometimes adult children living in parent-owned places (especially not WITH their parents) are people who are living with mental health challenges. Hers might possibly come and go. This really sounds like non-normative behavior. I would mention it to the landlords and try to get a sense from their response whether they think her concerns/complaints are reasonable or something to concern yourselves with.
I know it's hard dealing with someone's incredibly negative energy. I'd go "grey rock" with her and just repeat "We always lock the doors when we leave" if she talks to you directly. Texting her to keep it down is appropriate especially if she's yelling about you. I'd deal with the car but not because you think ti's going to change her behavior but because it might make you feel like you're taking constructive steps. You've done nothing to deserve this. That said, since there's no relationship between your behavior and her reactions, there may be nothing you can do.
posted by jessamyn at 6:13 PM on February 22, 2019 [21 favorites]
This is also my advice. Sometimes adult children living in parent-owned places (especially not WITH their parents) are people who are living with mental health challenges. Hers might possibly come and go. This really sounds like non-normative behavior. I would mention it to the landlords and try to get a sense from their response whether they think her concerns/complaints are reasonable or something to concern yourselves with.
I know it's hard dealing with someone's incredibly negative energy. I'd go "grey rock" with her and just repeat "We always lock the doors when we leave" if she talks to you directly. Texting her to keep it down is appropriate especially if she's yelling about you. I'd deal with the car but not because you think ti's going to change her behavior but because it might make you feel like you're taking constructive steps. You've done nothing to deserve this. That said, since there's no relationship between your behavior and her reactions, there may be nothing you can do.
posted by jessamyn at 6:13 PM on February 22, 2019 [21 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the answers so far. To clarify, this is exactly sudden or new---the nice thank-yous for the gifts were flanked on both sides by bad stuff. It's not like she was super nice and then changed, she's just not rude in our direct communication, which itself is extremely rare: the two Christmases, a few other holidays, and the text conversation about the doors has been pretty much it. In fact, I think the thank-you text this year was like a day or two after the trash can encounter!
posted by bugperson at 6:18 PM on February 22, 2019
posted by bugperson at 6:18 PM on February 22, 2019
adults who live in a property owned by their parents usually do that for a reason. sometimes the reason is mostly harmless and has no effect on neighbors, like being chronically unemployed/unemployable; needing an informal rent subsidy; not being able to pass a background check elsewhere. sometimes the reason is they can't maintain a stable independent living situation because they cannot live peaceably with other people or maintain cordial relations with non-parental landlords.
if this is the second kind of situation, your landlords know it. that doesn't mean they won't prioritize their daughter's wishes if they can. I would worry less about how to prove you're good tenants/neighbors and more about what to do if your landlords believe you but want you out anyway.
but just in case this is a first-time episode of whatever it is, you probably should check in with her parents. the most worrying facts, presented as an apologetic concern that you've done something wrong somehow. if they know what's up & are as nice as they seem, they'll appreciate the pretense. maybe she's driven all the previous tenants away and they'll want to keep you happy.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:28 PM on February 22, 2019 [20 favorites]
if this is the second kind of situation, your landlords know it. that doesn't mean they won't prioritize their daughter's wishes if they can. I would worry less about how to prove you're good tenants/neighbors and more about what to do if your landlords believe you but want you out anyway.
but just in case this is a first-time episode of whatever it is, you probably should check in with her parents. the most worrying facts, presented as an apologetic concern that you've done something wrong somehow. if they know what's up & are as nice as they seem, they'll appreciate the pretense. maybe she's driven all the previous tenants away and they'll want to keep you happy.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:28 PM on February 22, 2019 [20 favorites]
So, we lived in the same building as the child of landlords who had some mental illness. Even if she's not having any mental health issues, the family is letting her live there for Reasons. They may be sympathetic to you, they may not...but she's unlikely to be able to go elsewhere. Move.
If you must stay, Get the car hauled away this weekend to reduce ammunition. Ignore her as much as you can. If she complains to you, even about the deadbolt, just forward the complaint to the landlord...like, every.single.time. Just text a picture of the note to them, and say "not sure what to do here. We're locking the deadbolt. Can you address this?" You have to be thinking in documentation terms now, unfortunately you'll only want to communicate to the landlord in writing. You may need a paper trail. Make her noise their noise. Ask your landlord install an always locked deadbolt (like, the key turns, and then you can open it...these exist, they're not expensive in terms of deadbolts...like, if the landlords are really cool, but lazy, offer to hire the locksmith to do it yourself and ask them to deduct the bill from your rent...sometimes this is candy to a shitty landlord).
But really, you're better off moving on your terms. It'll be harder to find a place on short, unplanned notice when she decides to go sideways on you. If you have to leave by June 2020, and she flips the fuck out in April, you're going to have a much harder time finding a place for just a few months.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:41 PM on February 22, 2019 [17 favorites]
If you must stay, Get the car hauled away this weekend to reduce ammunition. Ignore her as much as you can. If she complains to you, even about the deadbolt, just forward the complaint to the landlord...like, every.single.time. Just text a picture of the note to them, and say "not sure what to do here. We're locking the deadbolt. Can you address this?" You have to be thinking in documentation terms now, unfortunately you'll only want to communicate to the landlord in writing. You may need a paper trail. Make her noise their noise. Ask your landlord install an always locked deadbolt (like, the key turns, and then you can open it...these exist, they're not expensive in terms of deadbolts...like, if the landlords are really cool, but lazy, offer to hire the locksmith to do it yourself and ask them to deduct the bill from your rent...sometimes this is candy to a shitty landlord).
But really, you're better off moving on your terms. It'll be harder to find a place on short, unplanned notice when she decides to go sideways on you. If you have to leave by June 2020, and she flips the fuck out in April, you're going to have a much harder time finding a place for just a few months.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:41 PM on February 22, 2019 [17 favorites]
She may have a mental illness. She may just also be Utterly Bereft of Clue.
Backstory:
In college, my friend roomed with a married couple and one other housemate. The Married Couple were friends of his. The Fourth Housemate was someone that they'd only met that year, when they needed another housemate.
The kitchen was a disaster area: dirty dishes in the sink and all over the cupboards, the trash overflowing, clutter all over the house but definitely centered in the kitchen. The woman was very upset, and said it had to be the Fourth Housemate. The husband believed her, and my friend sided with them since he'd known them for a while. Fourth Housemate continued to protest that, no, it wasn't him. End of the school year comes, and my friend and I got an apartment in a metro area 30 miles away while the married couple got an apartment in town. We didn't see them for about a year, when friend and I split up housekeeping: he went on a big hiking trip, I moved back in with my parents for a bit. Four months later he came back and moved in with Married Couple.
Their apartment was a disaster area. The kitchen was horrific. My friend was cleaning one day, and found half a coconut under the pull-out sofa. (This was from a party we'd all been to about six months ago.) He cleaned up the kitchen because he just couldn't stand the mess. The woman offhandedly remarked, "Hey, all the fruit flies are gone." She honestly didn't know that she was the cause of the mess. Based on this, we realized that she'd been the source of the mess in the house too - it wasn't Fourth Housemate at all. But because she'd never had to take care of her own space, she automatically assumed that anything that went wrong was caused by someone else.
This may be the case with the downstairs neighbor. If she went straight from parents' house to a housemate situation, then back to housing with others (even if it's just upstairs neighbors) any and all frustrations with the door may be automatically turned into "someone else's fault" even if that's totally not the case.
I have no idea how to fix this, none at all. Other than, get rid of the beater-car ASAP, keep being polite, don't take it personally until she starts destroying your property, and start looking for a new place to live. Others up-thread are right, you'll be less stressed if you find a new place on your own timeline rather than after she's escalated the yelling into direct abuse.
posted by Tailkinker to-Ennien at 6:51 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
Backstory:
In college, my friend roomed with a married couple and one other housemate. The Married Couple were friends of his. The Fourth Housemate was someone that they'd only met that year, when they needed another housemate.
The kitchen was a disaster area: dirty dishes in the sink and all over the cupboards, the trash overflowing, clutter all over the house but definitely centered in the kitchen. The woman was very upset, and said it had to be the Fourth Housemate. The husband believed her, and my friend sided with them since he'd known them for a while. Fourth Housemate continued to protest that, no, it wasn't him. End of the school year comes, and my friend and I got an apartment in a metro area 30 miles away while the married couple got an apartment in town. We didn't see them for about a year, when friend and I split up housekeeping: he went on a big hiking trip, I moved back in with my parents for a bit. Four months later he came back and moved in with Married Couple.
Their apartment was a disaster area. The kitchen was horrific. My friend was cleaning one day, and found half a coconut under the pull-out sofa. (This was from a party we'd all been to about six months ago.) He cleaned up the kitchen because he just couldn't stand the mess. The woman offhandedly remarked, "Hey, all the fruit flies are gone." She honestly didn't know that she was the cause of the mess. Based on this, we realized that she'd been the source of the mess in the house too - it wasn't Fourth Housemate at all. But because she'd never had to take care of her own space, she automatically assumed that anything that went wrong was caused by someone else.
This may be the case with the downstairs neighbor. If she went straight from parents' house to a housemate situation, then back to housing with others (even if it's just upstairs neighbors) any and all frustrations with the door may be automatically turned into "someone else's fault" even if that's totally not the case.
I have no idea how to fix this, none at all. Other than, get rid of the beater-car ASAP, keep being polite, don't take it personally until she starts destroying your property, and start looking for a new place to live. Others up-thread are right, you'll be less stressed if you find a new place on your own timeline rather than after she's escalated the yelling into direct abuse.
posted by Tailkinker to-Ennien at 6:51 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
These seem like bad signs, but you have the most information about the context and the people involved. I don't think this level of noise and grar is to be expected because you're renting, especially when it sounds like it is getting worse:
posted by Little Dawn at 7:02 PM on February 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
This has been escalating for almost a yearYou can consult with a lawyer about options that may be available in your jurisdiction, including how to move out as quickly as possible, not pay an early move-out penalty, maintain a good rental history, and keep your security deposit. And you can call Child Protective Services.
She started leaving notes on the front door (which is the only part of the house we share) saying it needs to be closed and locked at all times, which we always do, and she...doesn't always do. [...] When we texted her about the notes (after about 9 months of their being put up once every few weeks for ~12 - 24 hours at a time and then inexplicably taken down) she said she's found the door unlocked and wide open (???) [...] A couple months ago, she came home after us, and I heard her slamming things and screaming at the top of her lungs about how "those people" need to stop doing...[something inaudible]...to the locks on the "fucking doors". But she had to have been mad about the door being locked, since she had left it unlocked and I had locked it after coming home myself. Which doesn't make sense!
We also hear her making fun of or mocking us, always referring to us as "those [fucking] people," or going off about how we make the house look "trashy" or "disgusting" because we've left our Christmas tree up too long [...] or not scrapped our car that died last year. [...] hearing her scream specifically about us and be violently angry is really stressful, and I'm anxious that one day she might finally come up our stairs and start banging on our door. [...] She's a big screamer/stomper/slammer in general, not just about us, so we are really loathe and honestly a little scared to confront her further in any way.
posted by Little Dawn at 7:02 PM on February 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
Get rid of the car. Use the back door and lock it. If she complains about the front door locks, tell her you stopped using the front door.
I think you can ride this out until 2020.
posted by AugustWest at 7:19 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think you can ride this out until 2020.
posted by AugustWest at 7:19 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
You're going to have to move sooner rather than later. She's complaining about things that you legitimately do not do, and blowing up minor issues into gigantic problems. Trying to appease her is not going to work because this isn't a situation where you did something wrong. She has mood swings and has aimed them at you, but that doesn't mean they're in any way about you.
Move out, and then on your way out explain why to the landlord.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:24 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
Move out, and then on your way out explain why to the landlord.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:24 PM on February 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
Different perspective:
I may be reading this incorrectly, but it seems like she has not made any requests of you. I would ignore all passive aggressive communication, and act as if you can not hear anything she screams inside her own apartment. If there is some action she wants from you, wait until she asks you directly. Otherwise, just go on living your best life.
posted by hworth at 7:45 PM on February 22, 2019 [13 favorites]
I may be reading this incorrectly, but it seems like she has not made any requests of you. I would ignore all passive aggressive communication, and act as if you can not hear anything she screams inside her own apartment. If there is some action she wants from you, wait until she asks you directly. Otherwise, just go on living your best life.
posted by hworth at 7:45 PM on February 22, 2019 [13 favorites]
I know from personal experience with family members on both sides that elderly parents can be very good at turning a blind eye to the behavior of mentally ill and/or manipulative adult children. And your landlords may also be afraid of their daughter.
I agree with everyone who says to move as soon as possible, and with Little Dawn about consulting a lawyer.
posted by elphaba at 7:46 PM on February 22, 2019 [7 favorites]
I agree with everyone who says to move as soon as possible, and with Little Dawn about consulting a lawyer.
posted by elphaba at 7:46 PM on February 22, 2019 [7 favorites]
In my first apartment in Hong Kong, it was me versus the landlord's gambling addict son. Although his father (my contact) was initially on my side, eventually blood was thicker than water. They stole my security deposit and refused to pay it back despite small claims court. I don't think you can rely on them to be reasonable. If you decide to approach them, make sure you have a really good plan B lined up and ready to go. Including a lawyer consult.
posted by frumiousb at 9:32 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 9:32 PM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
Personal experience with this (housemate, substance abuse at minimum). I tried all the lovely advice to speak with my landlord, to minimize interactions with him, etc., etc. But the behaviors only escalated, and the parents only dug in their heels and blind spots even more. With clarity and hindsight, I am staggered by how swiftly things went off the rails and how unsafe I was when I still felt "mostly safe." I moved out after a breaking point, after 8 months of living this way and 4 more on the lease. I made the right call -- he was found dead a few weeks later. I only wish I'd gotten out sooner. The landlord stole my security deposit and had the audacity to ask for $200. I'd pay it five times over again.
Whatever barriers you think you have will pale in relation to how quickly this can get worse.
Strongly, strongly seconding the advice to talk with a lawyer about your options, as soon as possible. Specifically, about the consequence of breaking the lease. Start looking for other housing with move-in dates in 1 or 2 months, too, so you have something lined up. You will want it sooner than you think.
Sorry you're going through this! I very much empathize. I hope you have a peaceful home awaiting you soon.
posted by nicodine at 9:35 PM on February 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
Whatever barriers you think you have will pale in relation to how quickly this can get worse.
Strongly, strongly seconding the advice to talk with a lawyer about your options, as soon as possible. Specifically, about the consequence of breaking the lease. Start looking for other housing with move-in dates in 1 or 2 months, too, so you have something lined up. You will want it sooner than you think.
Sorry you're going through this! I very much empathize. I hope you have a peaceful home awaiting you soon.
posted by nicodine at 9:35 PM on February 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
We rented an upper where the landlord and his wife later rented the downstairs to her mother and step-father. They were horrible people, getting drunk at all hours of the day and having screaming matches, pounding on furniture, and playing loud music. We did complain, and nothing happened. Called the cops a few times, and the guy would talk his way out of it, we complained to the landlords, it would quiet down for a week, then go back to the way it was.
We finally moved, and I wished we'd done it sooner. In any other place, we might have had a chance of them being evicted, but despite reassurances from the daughter/co-landlord, they ultimately refused to address the issues ("I'm out of town for a month, sorry") and when we pushed harder with asserting our right to quiet enjoyment, we were told we could just choose not to renew our lease.
This woman is terrorizing you in your own home. I don't see how the parents can be unaware of her behavior, but they are renting to you, and unless they are mentally incapacitated, it's still their responsibility. The only thing you can take comfort in is that she would be doing it to anyone who lived above her.
Think about it: if she were able to get you evicted, she would have done so already. Instead, she is getting a guaranteed place to live, and taking out her frustrations on you. This is not normal, it is not what people put up with because they are renting, it is someone taking advantage of the fact that her parents own the house she is living in.
Next time she leaves a note, leave one back: "we did lock the door, and we always lock the door, if you want to talk about it in person, text us and we will meet in the yard." Or, "we'll be happy to sit down with you and your parents to discuss your issues with us anytime, please stop screaming, we can hear what you're saying."
Consider that she took her son around to the front because she was afraid of confrontation, not that you are a monster. Often, people feel free to yell in their own home, but won't directly confront anyone.
It is not your job to placate her or fix her troubled life. It is your right to have quiet enjoyment of your home, which you pay for. Like I said, we put up with a similarly uncomfortable situation way to long, and when we finally got away from it, I wondered why we hadn't done it sooner, a lot of it was due to my own anxiety and fear of confrontation, until it got really bad and I finally snapped and started pushing back, but ultimately, the relatives were dug in and there was no way the daughter would evict her own mother, despite admitting that she was a pill to deal with.
The only way to get out of this pattern is to break the pattern, either by confronting her, respectfully, of course, or by moving. Her response and her subsequent behavior is her responsibility, not yours, and by thinking you can somehow manage it by tiptoeing around her so far hasn't worked, so consider trying direction conversation.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 3:40 AM on February 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
We finally moved, and I wished we'd done it sooner. In any other place, we might have had a chance of them being evicted, but despite reassurances from the daughter/co-landlord, they ultimately refused to address the issues ("I'm out of town for a month, sorry") and when we pushed harder with asserting our right to quiet enjoyment, we were told we could just choose not to renew our lease.
This woman is terrorizing you in your own home. I don't see how the parents can be unaware of her behavior, but they are renting to you, and unless they are mentally incapacitated, it's still their responsibility. The only thing you can take comfort in is that she would be doing it to anyone who lived above her.
Think about it: if she were able to get you evicted, she would have done so already. Instead, she is getting a guaranteed place to live, and taking out her frustrations on you. This is not normal, it is not what people put up with because they are renting, it is someone taking advantage of the fact that her parents own the house she is living in.
Next time she leaves a note, leave one back: "we did lock the door, and we always lock the door, if you want to talk about it in person, text us and we will meet in the yard." Or, "we'll be happy to sit down with you and your parents to discuss your issues with us anytime, please stop screaming, we can hear what you're saying."
Consider that she took her son around to the front because she was afraid of confrontation, not that you are a monster. Often, people feel free to yell in their own home, but won't directly confront anyone.
It is not your job to placate her or fix her troubled life. It is your right to have quiet enjoyment of your home, which you pay for. Like I said, we put up with a similarly uncomfortable situation way to long, and when we finally got away from it, I wondered why we hadn't done it sooner, a lot of it was due to my own anxiety and fear of confrontation, until it got really bad and I finally snapped and started pushing back, but ultimately, the relatives were dug in and there was no way the daughter would evict her own mother, despite admitting that she was a pill to deal with.
The only way to get out of this pattern is to break the pattern, either by confronting her, respectfully, of course, or by moving. Her response and her subsequent behavior is her responsibility, not yours, and by thinking you can somehow manage it by tiptoeing around her so far hasn't worked, so consider trying direction conversation.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 3:40 AM on February 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
Ugh, the family downstairs from us are similar to your's but they are not the landlord's family. At our house, it's ironic that they regularly complain that my young adult daughters are noisy once in a while while they scream at each other all the time every day. I don't think they are aware that we can hear them, and I don't really know what to tell them. I think, like the couple Tailkinker to-Ennien described, that my neighbors are clueless. They have no idea how to live as a family and they take some of their stress out on us.
Whatever, I agree with some others that you can't do much about it, except maybe move away faster than planned.
Document anything that might lead to legal issues, get rid of the car, but otherwise ignore.
posted by mumimor at 8:15 AM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Whatever, I agree with some others that you can't do much about it, except maybe move away faster than planned.
Document anything that might lead to legal issues, get rid of the car, but otherwise ignore.
posted by mumimor at 8:15 AM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is exhausting. I've been in a roughly-similar sort of situation. But here's the thing: we're talking about a year and a couple of months. And moving is quite expensive, and extremely draining and disruptive. If you're in a good situation financially and geographically and saving to buy or saving to move in 2020, don't throw that away because of a bad neighbor.
Furnace.heart's advice here is probably the best. If you get a hostile text, send it on to the landlord, make it clear you've been following the rule and ask for advice. Maybe suggest a different kind of lock. Other than that, you're best off not reacting. This sounds like a person who at minimum is stressed/depressed and perhaps does have more serious issues. It's not about you and can't really be solved with conversation or negotiation.
So the thing you have to be concerned about is getting a good housing reference from the landlord. You're likely to need that when you move, so make sure you're paying on time, get that old car out of there ASAP, and approach all problem interactions with them rather than her. They're the landlord, it's their job. When I was in a similar situation I used to get complaints from a relative of the landlord who wasn't the landlord. I would just calmly ask them to talk to the landlord and have her send me an email so I could have it in writing. I never got an email.
You might also want to document the times you yourself find the door left unlocked.
I'd play it low key and ride it out. Moving is honestly not that easy and you don't have long to go.
posted by Miko at 9:28 AM on February 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
Furnace.heart's advice here is probably the best. If you get a hostile text, send it on to the landlord, make it clear you've been following the rule and ask for advice. Maybe suggest a different kind of lock. Other than that, you're best off not reacting. This sounds like a person who at minimum is stressed/depressed and perhaps does have more serious issues. It's not about you and can't really be solved with conversation or negotiation.
So the thing you have to be concerned about is getting a good housing reference from the landlord. You're likely to need that when you move, so make sure you're paying on time, get that old car out of there ASAP, and approach all problem interactions with them rather than her. They're the landlord, it's their job. When I was in a similar situation I used to get complaints from a relative of the landlord who wasn't the landlord. I would just calmly ask them to talk to the landlord and have her send me an email so I could have it in writing. I never got an email.
You might also want to document the times you yourself find the door left unlocked.
I'd play it low key and ride it out. Moving is honestly not that easy and you don't have long to go.
posted by Miko at 9:28 AM on February 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
I know someone who rents, and typically deals with the owner and his son. One day my friend called the owner (as instructed, related to an ongoing issue) and got the owner's wife, who proceeded to yell and insult and berate my friend to the point of making her cry. My friend called me, worried they were going to be kicked out and feeling awful.
So I called the landlord's son, who I had previously met, and after a moment of chit chat started with "so I'm calling because [friend] tried to reach your dad about [issue] and your mother picked up..."
And that's as far as I got. He immediately said "oh no, what did she do this time?" followed by pre-emptive apologies and stories of how horrible she is to tenants, and how she isn't supposed to answer that phone. With no pushback whatsoever, he agreed to take my friend's calls on his personal phone so my friend would never risk his mother picking up again, and all has been well since.
My point being: they may know their daughter very well, and how she behaves, and what she's struggling with, so you should consider reaching out to let your landlords know when you'll be moving the car, apologizing for the delay, then asking "by the way, your daughter has seemed very upset with us lately, and in particular she's been shouting at us through the walls and accusing us of leaving the front door unlocked when we haven't been. Is she doing okay? Do you know what's going on?"
posted by davejay at 9:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
So I called the landlord's son, who I had previously met, and after a moment of chit chat started with "so I'm calling because [friend] tried to reach your dad about [issue] and your mother picked up..."
And that's as far as I got. He immediately said "oh no, what did she do this time?" followed by pre-emptive apologies and stories of how horrible she is to tenants, and how she isn't supposed to answer that phone. With no pushback whatsoever, he agreed to take my friend's calls on his personal phone so my friend would never risk his mother picking up again, and all has been well since.
My point being: they may know their daughter very well, and how she behaves, and what she's struggling with, so you should consider reaching out to let your landlords know when you'll be moving the car, apologizing for the delay, then asking "by the way, your daughter has seemed very upset with us lately, and in particular she's been shouting at us through the walls and accusing us of leaving the front door unlocked when we haven't been. Is she doing okay? Do you know what's going on?"
posted by davejay at 9:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
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-- Suggest new locks to the landlord to 'solve this ongoing problem.'
--- Whenever she starts in on "those [fucking] people," text her to kindly keep the noise down.
---- If you haven't already, put a tarp over the beater car until it's taken away.
Consider moving up your move date. She sounds like she's got a lot of problems that she's trying to share with you.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:51 PM on February 22, 2019 [4 favorites]