Intellectually gifted - what does that even mean?
January 29, 2019 8:56 AM Subscribe
My 8 year old is having a psycho-educational assessment done (she's had her first 3 hours of testing, 4 left to go and then we'll get the report). I have long suspected sort of mild ADHD which I thought might be impairing her a bit at school and other pursuits. The tester (registered psychologist, former teacher and school counsellor) said at the end of yesterday's testing that it seems that she may have ADHD, but she is definitely intellectually gifted. I was, and am, shocked and confused.
First, I haven't observed special intelligence in her - and I am a very involved, observant mother - but second - I don't even really know what 'giftedness' means. Can you please offer resources to read up on this?
So, I'm nearing 40, and I am not very aware of topics surrounding ADHD and giftedness or twice-exceptional stuff (that stuff just wasn't on people's radars much when I was growing up). Before yesterday I honestly would have thought that 'gifted' was just a kind of silly way of saying 'very smart', but I guess there's more to it than that. I am trying to google it this morning, but there are so many search results and I can't find anything to read that really inspires trust. I think people love hearing their kids are gifted, and of course I am happy to hear this too, but it was entirely unexpected and I'm feeling skeptical. Can you suggest sites, podcasts, books and other search terms? We are meeting the psychologist again next week, where I will of course ask questions, but until our final meeting when she delivers her report, my daughter hears everything we discuss so I have to be careful about what I say. Thank you.
First, I haven't observed special intelligence in her - and I am a very involved, observant mother - but second - I don't even really know what 'giftedness' means. Can you please offer resources to read up on this?
So, I'm nearing 40, and I am not very aware of topics surrounding ADHD and giftedness or twice-exceptional stuff (that stuff just wasn't on people's radars much when I was growing up). Before yesterday I honestly would have thought that 'gifted' was just a kind of silly way of saying 'very smart', but I guess there's more to it than that. I am trying to google it this morning, but there are so many search results and I can't find anything to read that really inspires trust. I think people love hearing their kids are gifted, and of course I am happy to hear this too, but it was entirely unexpected and I'm feeling skeptical. Can you suggest sites, podcasts, books and other search terms? We are meeting the psychologist again next week, where I will of course ask questions, but until our final meeting when she delivers her report, my daughter hears everything we discuss so I have to be careful about what I say. Thank you.
I can't tell you exactly what this person means when they say "gifted", but I can explain my experience as a kid that was given this label. The good: I always knew the answer in class, at least in elementary. I felt bored when we spent class time to review concepts I already understood. It felt good to be told I was smart. I go to be in the highest level reading and math classes for my grade. I was offered spots in extra-curricular groups that were academically based. The Bad: My parents expected me to get good grades, but my siblings weren't held to this standard. My teachers expected me to work harder than the other kids. I was praised for a good score on tests that did zilch for my grades. It was a bit harder for me in high school and college when I did not have decent study skills but had to learn more complex things.
posted by soelo at 9:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by soelo at 9:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
I was identified as gifted when I was an elementary schooler, via IQ testing. I got put into advanced reading and math groups. I spent a lot of time not paying attention in class because the material was boring / I already knew it. Consider whether "misbehavior" may be due to being insufficiently challenged.
FWIW, I also got into trouble a few times for being insubordinate when rules didn't make sense or I thought they were bad rules. I remember getting in bonus trouble when the letter they made me write to my teacher was insufficiently apologetic. I think it's a thing that academically gifted kids sometimes struggle socially.
posted by momus_window at 9:29 AM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
FWIW, I also got into trouble a few times for being insubordinate when rules didn't make sense or I thought they were bad rules. I remember getting in bonus trouble when the letter they made me write to my teacher was insufficiently apologetic. I think it's a thing that academically gifted kids sometimes struggle socially.
posted by momus_window at 9:29 AM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Former gifted kid here. Similar story — in 2nd grade, I was “acting out” and seemed to be not paying any attention in class. I was evaluated by a school psych (IQ, spatial reasoning, etc) and they decided I was just really bored. They ended up putting me in the highest-level groups for math in 3rd grade, then enrolling me in a “magnet” gifted and talented program for 4th and 5th grade, both of which were pretty awesome. Going back to “homogenous” classes for some subjects in Jr. High was hard. I went back to being really, really bored.
College, and actually having to put in work, especially in math, was a bit of an adjustment for me, so, that’s a thing to watch out for in the future.
I don’t think it was really a big deal. I got teased for being “a G.T.” but I was a weird kid and was getting teased anyway so, whatever?
posted by Alterscape at 9:35 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
College, and actually having to put in work, especially in math, was a bit of an adjustment for me, so, that’s a thing to watch out for in the future.
I don’t think it was really a big deal. I got teased for being “a G.T.” but I was a weird kid and was getting teased anyway so, whatever?
posted by Alterscape at 9:35 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Here are a couple resources for parents of gifted and 2E kids that I find helpful:
Raising Poppies facebook group
Hoagie's Gifted Education Page (start with the "Gifted 101" section) and their related facebook group
posted by belladonna at 9:40 AM on January 29, 2019
Raising Poppies facebook group
Hoagie's Gifted Education Page (start with the "Gifted 101" section) and their related facebook group
posted by belladonna at 9:40 AM on January 29, 2019
My children were labeled gifted and twice -exceptional in testing that was done for various schools when they were 3, 5 and 8. This may or may not apply to your situation so please take with a grain of salt. I think in all my experience with my own kids and others I know that the labels were unhelpful at best, anxiety-provoking at worst. Teachers kept harping on how gifted they were. Ugh, it does nothing to help someone in life. Teach your kid to just do the best they can do, even though of course no one does their best all the time and that's ok. Teach your kid that everyone is really smart in some way. The kid who didn't test so well might be great at finding his way to back a part of town he only went to once before, or listening to people and getting how they feel. Now that this part of life is over I actually resent all the time spent on testing and labeling. "Gifted" kids often feel that they have to understand something immediately, or before other people. No success after grade school comes without humble curiosity, the willingness to fail, and the capacity to do work without self-consciousness.
posted by nantucket at 9:41 AM on January 29, 2019 [59 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 9:41 AM on January 29, 2019 [59 favorites]
This typically obliges the school board to accommodate your child's exceptionality through an Individual Education Plan.
Things may have changed since I was in school, but giftedness did not entitle you to an IEP. (And if you had an IEP for other reasons, drastically increased the likelihood you'd receive no useful services. My mother single-handedly dragged my brother through high school.)
posted by hoyland at 9:42 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Things may have changed since I was in school, but giftedness did not entitle you to an IEP. (And if you had an IEP for other reasons, drastically increased the likelihood you'd receive no useful services. My mother single-handedly dragged my brother through high school.)
posted by hoyland at 9:42 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
In terms of googling, I would look to reliable information on "psychoeducational testing" or assessment from non-profit and/or academic sources, like this one; I would also have the assessor take you through the results in detail and discuss what they mean.
I'm a lay person when it comes to this type of assessment, but my partner has been through a lot of it and has been found to be simultaneously learning disabled and "gifted", I've seen the tests, etc. Basically, they do a lot of different cognitive tests, looking at different brain functions (as summarized in the link above). Someone who scores in general above or well-above average is deemed to be "gifted" (the exact percentile will depend on the educational jurisdiction), which just means that they perform at a very high level on the cognitive tasks that are included in the test, compared to other children their age.
I wish we had less loaded language to talk about this. It's not like children (or adults) who score well on cognitive tasks are better people - and the tests say nothing about how thoughtful, caring, emotionally or socially intelligent they are. Usually it's just a test of knowledge, memory, calculation, some executive function, etc.
But it does mean that they may need special educational supports. They often learn concepts and skills faster, and thus get bored if the class is moving more slowly - which can lead to acting out or not paying attention. They can be disruptive or fall behind. Changing their education and/or removing them to a segregated classroom is just like accommodating a student with any other kind of learning difference (sometimes called "exceptionality"). Of course, everyone is different when it comes to learning, but there are gradations to difference, and the further from the average/norm someone is, the more different their education will need to be.
You can also be "gifted" and "learning disabled": for most people their scores vary between tasks, but not by that much. People with global intellectual disabilities have generally low scores on all the things tested; people with learning disabilities (to use the North American term) have specific cognitive deficits - discrete cognitive tasks that they will score very low in (e.g. bottom 5th percentile or lower). My partner, for example, is in the bottom 2% for facial recognition, and also has problems with memory, while scoring well above average for many other cognitive tasks. So your child may score very high on most cognitive tasks, but still have some issues around concentration.
What this all means in practical terms will depend entirely on your educational jurisdiction: countries, states, even school boards have different programs and requirements for accommodations. Some places will have segregated classrooms, some will have specialized programs, some may have nothing.
You'll want to go over the report in detail with the assessor to make sure that you understand what it means (and what it's limits are, of course), and also with someone from your school to learn about how the local program works in regards to the exceptionalities your child has.
posted by jb at 9:50 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm a lay person when it comes to this type of assessment, but my partner has been through a lot of it and has been found to be simultaneously learning disabled and "gifted", I've seen the tests, etc. Basically, they do a lot of different cognitive tests, looking at different brain functions (as summarized in the link above). Someone who scores in general above or well-above average is deemed to be "gifted" (the exact percentile will depend on the educational jurisdiction), which just means that they perform at a very high level on the cognitive tasks that are included in the test, compared to other children their age.
I wish we had less loaded language to talk about this. It's not like children (or adults) who score well on cognitive tasks are better people - and the tests say nothing about how thoughtful, caring, emotionally or socially intelligent they are. Usually it's just a test of knowledge, memory, calculation, some executive function, etc.
But it does mean that they may need special educational supports. They often learn concepts and skills faster, and thus get bored if the class is moving more slowly - which can lead to acting out or not paying attention. They can be disruptive or fall behind. Changing their education and/or removing them to a segregated classroom is just like accommodating a student with any other kind of learning difference (sometimes called "exceptionality"). Of course, everyone is different when it comes to learning, but there are gradations to difference, and the further from the average/norm someone is, the more different their education will need to be.
You can also be "gifted" and "learning disabled": for most people their scores vary between tasks, but not by that much. People with global intellectual disabilities have generally low scores on all the things tested; people with learning disabilities (to use the North American term) have specific cognitive deficits - discrete cognitive tasks that they will score very low in (e.g. bottom 5th percentile or lower). My partner, for example, is in the bottom 2% for facial recognition, and also has problems with memory, while scoring well above average for many other cognitive tasks. So your child may score very high on most cognitive tasks, but still have some issues around concentration.
What this all means in practical terms will depend entirely on your educational jurisdiction: countries, states, even school boards have different programs and requirements for accommodations. Some places will have segregated classrooms, some will have specialized programs, some may have nothing.
You'll want to go over the report in detail with the assessor to make sure that you understand what it means (and what it's limits are, of course), and also with someone from your school to learn about how the local program works in regards to the exceptionalities your child has.
posted by jb at 9:50 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I honestly would have thought that 'gifted' was just a kind of silly way of saying 'very smart',
it is! but it also means that your kid may get other programs or attention as being very smart can lead to being very bored, which leads to an unhappy kid and a hard to manage class.
so your school may have extra programs for gifted kids, or may place them in some classes that are more challenging, or may have a counselor who checks in with them.
posted by zippy at 9:52 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
it is! but it also means that your kid may get other programs or attention as being very smart can lead to being very bored, which leads to an unhappy kid and a hard to manage class.
so your school may have extra programs for gifted kids, or may place them in some classes that are more challenging, or may have a counselor who checks in with them.
posted by zippy at 9:52 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I honestly would have thought that 'gifted' was just a kind of silly way of saying 'very smart', but I guess there's more to it than that.
That is what it is, and no there isn't a lot more to it than that. 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' has nothing to do with school-style "giftedness", if it's what's been coming up in search results to confuse you.
gifted in school settings is a euphemism for tests well, which is usually a side effect of being smart (or just a side effect of being very compliant and attentive to instructions and coming from a middle-class background.)
Being "gifted" in music and art sometimes appears to go along with intellectual gifts, but doesn't really. the apparent correlation is just because A. schools with gifted&talented programs are more likely to also have arts programs, and B. because at the very early and immature levels of learning the various arts, you can achieve above-average results through intelligent application of principles even without any particular talent, feeling, or interest. this kind of musical or artistic precocity reveals itself for what it is if and when it goes away when the need for college-application extracurriculars is over.
Sometimes people will talk about intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses as "gifts" in the kind of smarmy way that gave us the "twice-exceptional" vocabulary. this way of looking at it serves no particular purpose except to make those children uncomfortable. it is common enough to be "gifted" in both ways, but the dual meaning is not inherent in the concept of a "gifted child," which again means no more than a child who tests and reads well earlier than the norm.
neither ADHD nor high intelligence are as exceptional as all that. they need to be attended to, that's all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:04 AM on January 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
That is what it is, and no there isn't a lot more to it than that. 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' has nothing to do with school-style "giftedness", if it's what's been coming up in search results to confuse you.
gifted in school settings is a euphemism for tests well, which is usually a side effect of being smart (or just a side effect of being very compliant and attentive to instructions and coming from a middle-class background.)
Being "gifted" in music and art sometimes appears to go along with intellectual gifts, but doesn't really. the apparent correlation is just because A. schools with gifted&talented programs are more likely to also have arts programs, and B. because at the very early and immature levels of learning the various arts, you can achieve above-average results through intelligent application of principles even without any particular talent, feeling, or interest. this kind of musical or artistic precocity reveals itself for what it is if and when it goes away when the need for college-application extracurriculars is over.
Sometimes people will talk about intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses as "gifts" in the kind of smarmy way that gave us the "twice-exceptional" vocabulary. this way of looking at it serves no particular purpose except to make those children uncomfortable. it is common enough to be "gifted" in both ways, but the dual meaning is not inherent in the concept of a "gifted child," which again means no more than a child who tests and reads well earlier than the norm.
neither ADHD nor high intelligence are as exceptional as all that. they need to be attended to, that's all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:04 AM on January 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
Gifted for me as a child basically equated to “give her more work to keep her from getting bored” I had extra projects and had to go to a special class while other students were at recess. (And yes, I had an IEP.)
I opted out of the gifted program as soon as it was up to me (high school), and wish I could have done so much, much sooner.
I think what would have helped me more than a bullshit label and extra work would have been if someone had taught me how to “learn between the lines” - how to listen for tidbits you don’t know in amongst the stuff you do - and coping skills for when school is just SO BORING. I had to learn all that as an adult, and it’s stuff I still struggle with at 40.
posted by okayokayigive at 10:10 AM on January 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I opted out of the gifted program as soon as it was up to me (high school), and wish I could have done so much, much sooner.
I think what would have helped me more than a bullshit label and extra work would have been if someone had taught me how to “learn between the lines” - how to listen for tidbits you don’t know in amongst the stuff you do - and coping skills for when school is just SO BORING. I had to learn all that as an adult, and it’s stuff I still struggle with at 40.
posted by okayokayigive at 10:10 AM on January 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Another former gifted kid here. It got me into some advanced-level classes in grade school, an extra intellectual-enrichment class in Junior High, and advanced-placement classes in high school.
I always found it easy to study and retain information for tests. I learned how to read at a very early age and was a voracious reader, and a lot of the time I was able to do so well in tests simply because of having a good recall of info.
I do agree that maybe some of the symptoms that people are attributing to ADHD may simply be a function of your kid being bored out of her mind because she's ahead of the other kids. In my own case, I was always done with all my schoolwork lightyears ahead of the rest of my class, but I just would go get one of the volumes of the class encyclopedia and read that for fun instead of acting out. If I'd been more prone to being mischievous I'd probably have been branded a troublemaker.
Assuming that your kid is gifted: one of the things that people now realize that they should watch for is that your kid may start to embrace the "I always get A's" thing as a major trait in their self-identity, and this may make them a little uneasy about trying new challenges unless they can be sure that they'll get an A on that too. I know that I'm a little risk-averse myself; there are various complex reasons for that, but I can definitely say that an uneasiness about failure is a trait I have.
Another suggestion I've read - one that would have done me good - is to praise your kid for effort. Don't just praise your kid when they succeed - praise them when they are working hard towards something. That may be a big challenge - your kid may find that schoolwork just comes really easy to them, so it's like they fart out A's with no big deal. The danger is that they therefore never really learn how to actually work as a result. That's also something I sometimes struggle with - having to spend more than a few minutes effort on something for good results is something I had to train myself how to do.
The good news is that a lot of extracurricular activities can teach the concept of "working diligently towards a goal". For some, it's sports; your brain won't help you develop the strength to hit a home run, only repeatedly practicing your batting will do that. Music or dance do this too (it took me a month to learn Billy Joel's "Streetlife Serenade" on the piano, but I was determined and stuck to it and did it). Theater as well - a big brain can help you learn your lines, but only the repeated rehearsals will help you get to the point where your'e ready to perform. Theater also helps teach you about teamwork.
So I'd consider if maybe the ADHD stuff is just simple "I already understand the stuff from the first time the teacher told us and I'm bored". Introducing something that will challenge your kid in some other way may be the way to go; whether that's a gifted-talented extra-credit class, or it's the drama club or a robot club or a coding club or Little League or tennis or bowling or whatever.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:16 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
I always found it easy to study and retain information for tests. I learned how to read at a very early age and was a voracious reader, and a lot of the time I was able to do so well in tests simply because of having a good recall of info.
I do agree that maybe some of the symptoms that people are attributing to ADHD may simply be a function of your kid being bored out of her mind because she's ahead of the other kids. In my own case, I was always done with all my schoolwork lightyears ahead of the rest of my class, but I just would go get one of the volumes of the class encyclopedia and read that for fun instead of acting out. If I'd been more prone to being mischievous I'd probably have been branded a troublemaker.
Assuming that your kid is gifted: one of the things that people now realize that they should watch for is that your kid may start to embrace the "I always get A's" thing as a major trait in their self-identity, and this may make them a little uneasy about trying new challenges unless they can be sure that they'll get an A on that too. I know that I'm a little risk-averse myself; there are various complex reasons for that, but I can definitely say that an uneasiness about failure is a trait I have.
Another suggestion I've read - one that would have done me good - is to praise your kid for effort. Don't just praise your kid when they succeed - praise them when they are working hard towards something. That may be a big challenge - your kid may find that schoolwork just comes really easy to them, so it's like they fart out A's with no big deal. The danger is that they therefore never really learn how to actually work as a result. That's also something I sometimes struggle with - having to spend more than a few minutes effort on something for good results is something I had to train myself how to do.
The good news is that a lot of extracurricular activities can teach the concept of "working diligently towards a goal". For some, it's sports; your brain won't help you develop the strength to hit a home run, only repeatedly practicing your batting will do that. Music or dance do this too (it took me a month to learn Billy Joel's "Streetlife Serenade" on the piano, but I was determined and stuck to it and did it). Theater as well - a big brain can help you learn your lines, but only the repeated rehearsals will help you get to the point where your'e ready to perform. Theater also helps teach you about teamwork.
So I'd consider if maybe the ADHD stuff is just simple "I already understand the stuff from the first time the teacher told us and I'm bored". Introducing something that will challenge your kid in some other way may be the way to go; whether that's a gifted-talented extra-credit class, or it's the drama club or a robot club or a coding club or Little League or tennis or bowling or whatever.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:16 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: So what I am understanding from your comments here is this: "intellectually gifted" does come from quantifiable testing results (top 1-3 percent), and it really does simply mean "really smart". The tester said "top 1 percent" - I remember that.
I guess what is confusing is that this seems to be...a problem? From what I gather online. Your comments are helpful - so generally folks in this category get bored at school and may have some conduct issues as a result.
I'm not sure what it means for my daughter, at least not yet. I guess her gifts don't show unless she is allowed to bounce around and be really physical, according to the tester. She does not test great in school, did not read early, is a pretty solid B student thus far etc.
I appreciate your comments, this is really confusing for me.
posted by kitcat at 10:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I guess what is confusing is that this seems to be...a problem? From what I gather online. Your comments are helpful - so generally folks in this category get bored at school and may have some conduct issues as a result.
I'm not sure what it means for my daughter, at least not yet. I guess her gifts don't show unless she is allowed to bounce around and be really physical, according to the tester. She does not test great in school, did not read early, is a pretty solid B student thus far etc.
I appreciate your comments, this is really confusing for me.
posted by kitcat at 10:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Unless they are useful for admission into some program that you think might actually benefit your child, I would resist the label--and the accompanying narrative--as much as possible. They're really not all that useful, but they are ridiculously loaded and fraught. I think in most circumstances they do more harm than good. (They are most useful when getting access for kids to scarce resources in a bad to mediocre public school system.)
posted by praemunire at 10:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:22 AM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Oh, and because I saw someone mention it - the book "The Drama of the Gifted Child" is referring more to a specific theory about a specific type of emotional development in a specific type of kid; in a nutshell, it is a certain therapist's argument that kids who are especially empathetic and emotionally sensitive may unconsciously try to change their own behavior in an effort to please their parents. Some sensitive gifted kids can be at risk for that (I can be a little like that, I'll admit), but that's more a problem with emotional sensitivity than plain old "giftedness". In other words: this only might be something to worry about if your kid is both smarter than usual and more sensitive than usual. If your kid is just smarter than usual, this may not be anything you need to worry about. (I should also note that any kind of "trying to please my parents" instinct I had going on still wasn't enough to keep me from pursuing a dream to study theater in New York City, which is something my parents repeatedly flat-out tried to talk me out of.)
But if you're really concerned about the emotional fallout here: whatever your kid wants to do, as long as it's not flat-out illegal or actively harmful, let 'em do it and support 'em. Even if she decides "you know what, I'd rather just be a stay-at-home mom" or something. If it's what she wants to do, it's what she wants to do.
(I've come around to taking a dim view of "The Drama of the Gifted Child" because I don't know if it's a thing you find in "gifted" kids so much as you find it in "sensitive" ones.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:26 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
But if you're really concerned about the emotional fallout here: whatever your kid wants to do, as long as it's not flat-out illegal or actively harmful, let 'em do it and support 'em. Even if she decides "you know what, I'd rather just be a stay-at-home mom" or something. If it's what she wants to do, it's what she wants to do.
(I've come around to taking a dim view of "The Drama of the Gifted Child" because I don't know if it's a thing you find in "gifted" kids so much as you find it in "sensitive" ones.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:26 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Oh, and after seeing your followup - I'mma memail you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on January 29, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on January 29, 2019
Another former "gifted" kid, here! I went to an "advanced" school, so we didn't have gifted education, but I went to gifted and talented summer programs at Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth, which were the one thing about being labeled "gifted" that I found really helpful. Being among peers was much better for me than being separated from others in school for extra programming would have been, I think.
As others have said, "gifted" for me meant I learned simple concepts pretty quickly, understood certain things (in my case, mostly literature and logic problems) easily, got bored and got horrible grades. I nearly failed 7th grade algebra because I didn't care about it, never paid enough attention to learn basic mathematical concepts because I was more interested in literature, and didn't have any study skills because most things came easily to me. I struggled in high school as well until I re-learned basic math and study skills. I went on to have good grades in high school and college, and can more-or-less follow rules and have had a good career trajectory as an adult.
I "tested well" on standardized tests, but didn't necessarily do well on regular schoolwork. Because of my high marks on standardized tests, I was labeled someone who didn't apply herself. Which was true, because I didn't apply myself to things that I wasn't naturally good at, or that didn't naturally interest me. It would have been helpful to me if my parents had understood this better, and helped me learn to apply myself more (and not let me bail on so many things I wasn't instantly good at).
Johns Hopkins has a podcast about parenting gifted kids called Bright Now that might be helpful.
posted by assenav at 10:29 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
As others have said, "gifted" for me meant I learned simple concepts pretty quickly, understood certain things (in my case, mostly literature and logic problems) easily, got bored and got horrible grades. I nearly failed 7th grade algebra because I didn't care about it, never paid enough attention to learn basic mathematical concepts because I was more interested in literature, and didn't have any study skills because most things came easily to me. I struggled in high school as well until I re-learned basic math and study skills. I went on to have good grades in high school and college, and can more-or-less follow rules and have had a good career trajectory as an adult.
I "tested well" on standardized tests, but didn't necessarily do well on regular schoolwork. Because of my high marks on standardized tests, I was labeled someone who didn't apply herself. Which was true, because I didn't apply myself to things that I wasn't naturally good at, or that didn't naturally interest me. It would have been helpful to me if my parents had understood this better, and helped me learn to apply myself more (and not let me bail on so many things I wasn't instantly good at).
Johns Hopkins has a podcast about parenting gifted kids called Bright Now that might be helpful.
posted by assenav at 10:29 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
On preview, I will second what EmpressCallipygos says about The Drama of the Gifted Child. I was both gifted and sensitive, and I think the two were conflated by adults much more than was actually true!
posted by assenav at 10:33 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by assenav at 10:33 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Some are suggesting it's not ADHD, she might just be bored due to her giftedness. I would urge you not to lean hard into that idea, because it's probably more likely that her giftedness is covering up the deficits caused by the ADHD. It's another part of medicine where girls are underdiagnosed and undertreated for it, and it can have lifelong repercussions if you ignore it.
posted by stowaway at 10:34 AM on January 29, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 10:34 AM on January 29, 2019 [23 favorites]
I was identified as gifted and went to a high school just for gifted kids, and now have a very interesting alumni group to speak from joint experience with.
I actually prefer the term asynchronous learner. Although we all remained ‘smart’ I think the educational emergency, so to speak, was that there were times at school where each of us was way ahead of the class in terms of being able to learn [whatever] – for some people it was basically across the board, for others it might just be math, etc. During those times we were “the smart kid” and our days at regular school were filled with various strategies to deal with boredom rather than anything else.
If you really followed us up to our current point (late 40s) I think we have all ALSO reached times where we had a realization that we wanted to learn something but had maybe missed a step in learning “how to learn” that particular thing. The good thing was that by mushing us all together, we forced each other to learn how to learn things because the peer group was pushing ahead. The bad news is it wasn’t a complete fix. 😊
I think schools now hopefully recognize that if a child is gifted/asynchronous/whatever, that child may need a different approach to learning. They may do better with a project-based approach, for example, because they can’t necessarily be motivated through grades when they know they are doing way better than their peers, or their ability to synthesize information may be disrupted by the way information is broken down for elementary curricula.
So your daughter may be a solid B student natively, or she may be a B student not because she has a B level understanding but because she has a B-level understanding of the way schools teach. It may not matter, but that’s why the testing is helpful – it gives a sense of what ways educators could go to see if she is working at her potential or not.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:40 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I actually prefer the term asynchronous learner. Although we all remained ‘smart’ I think the educational emergency, so to speak, was that there were times at school where each of us was way ahead of the class in terms of being able to learn [whatever] – for some people it was basically across the board, for others it might just be math, etc. During those times we were “the smart kid” and our days at regular school were filled with various strategies to deal with boredom rather than anything else.
If you really followed us up to our current point (late 40s) I think we have all ALSO reached times where we had a realization that we wanted to learn something but had maybe missed a step in learning “how to learn” that particular thing. The good thing was that by mushing us all together, we forced each other to learn how to learn things because the peer group was pushing ahead. The bad news is it wasn’t a complete fix. 😊
I think schools now hopefully recognize that if a child is gifted/asynchronous/whatever, that child may need a different approach to learning. They may do better with a project-based approach, for example, because they can’t necessarily be motivated through grades when they know they are doing way better than their peers, or their ability to synthesize information may be disrupted by the way information is broken down for elementary curricula.
So your daughter may be a solid B student natively, or she may be a B student not because she has a B level understanding but because she has a B-level understanding of the way schools teach. It may not matter, but that’s why the testing is helpful – it gives a sense of what ways educators could go to see if she is working at her potential or not.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:40 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I was also a "gifted" kid per school testing. I don't think either "gifted" or "very smart" is a helpful description because my impression is that IQ tests tend to show that the kid may be developmentally ahead of their peers when it comes to skills that are helpful in the classroom environment. But we want to take this test and say that it means something fixed and innate about a child which can be unhelpful for their growth. Personally I coasted through school because I'm a good test-taker but I never had to really work hard to meet a goal or learn time management skills and that has hindered me in life.
posted by muddgirl at 10:45 AM on January 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 10:45 AM on January 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I was also labeled as "gifted" on the basis of standardized tests in early elementary school. I do recall being so bored in first and second grade that my teachers would photocopy logic puzzles and whatnot to keep me occupied. My parents ultimately opted to track me in the school district's full-day GT program, which meant switching schools after second grade. I cried a lot because I had to leave my friends behind in the old neighborhood school, but once I started third grade, I was perfectly fine.
I guess the thing I struggled with was the self-concept that I was really good at literature and somehow less good at math (although objectively, that wasn't the case at all; I just had very little math confidence once I hit pre-algebra and/or puberty).
Although there is a lot of pushback against early tracking, much of which I agree with on principle, I do think that the gifted label and the subsequent tracking was a net positive for bookish, introverted me. I read essays and memoirs by other kids my age who were not identified as "gifted" or tracked, and now write thinkpieces for Slate about having to hide their smarts because it was uncool. By contrast, I ended up spending almost my entire formal education surrounded by other kids who also liked books and debate and intellectually challenging material. I remember there was some kind of paperwork snafu when transitioning from elementary to middle school where all the GT kids were placed in non-GT classes for like 2 weeks until it got straightened out, and frankly it was horrifying to me. Literal spitballs. Homework was busywork. ("Color in this map of Europe." Not learn the countries and capitals. Literally color. For 7th graders.) I would have been crushed to bits in an environment like that.
posted by basalganglia at 10:46 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I guess the thing I struggled with was the self-concept that I was really good at literature and somehow less good at math (although objectively, that wasn't the case at all; I just had very little math confidence once I hit pre-algebra and/or puberty).
Although there is a lot of pushback against early tracking, much of which I agree with on principle, I do think that the gifted label and the subsequent tracking was a net positive for bookish, introverted me. I read essays and memoirs by other kids my age who were not identified as "gifted" or tracked, and now write thinkpieces for Slate about having to hide their smarts because it was uncool. By contrast, I ended up spending almost my entire formal education surrounded by other kids who also liked books and debate and intellectually challenging material. I remember there was some kind of paperwork snafu when transitioning from elementary to middle school where all the GT kids were placed in non-GT classes for like 2 weeks until it got straightened out, and frankly it was horrifying to me. Literal spitballs. Homework was busywork. ("Color in this map of Europe." Not learn the countries and capitals. Literally color. For 7th graders.) I would have been crushed to bits in an environment like that.
posted by basalganglia at 10:46 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I went to gifted and talented summer programs at Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth
Oh, yeah, CTY was fun and valuable, although I'm not sure all the rhetoric is helpful.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on January 29, 2019
Oh, yeah, CTY was fun and valuable, although I'm not sure all the rhetoric is helpful.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on January 29, 2019
Child-identified-as-gifted here. It was a good thing for me.
Treat intellectual giftedness like being a very talented athlete. Athletes have to work hard to maintain their conditioning and skills, but there is something innate about them that puts them on a different level than others where hard work allows them to excel where others may not. It doesn't mean they're good or successful at everything in life, just that they are set up to be especially good in that domain. If they only ever played with amateur players, they'd probably be okay and stand out, but may lose enthusiasm. Given good challenges, they could excel and have a lot of pride in and love for what they do. Pushed too hard, they might rebel and hate it.
Similarly, intellectual giftedness is about being very good at traditional schooling and what it tests for. It does not mean they will be incredible businesspeople or great actors or anything else - just that they're very book-smart. Some will be totally happy and fine in a class with typical kids because they benefit from focusing more on their social development. Some will excel and be happy when given extra intellectual challenges (that was me). Some will be pushed too far without support and it will break them.
I think some key things to remember:
(1) any decision you make now about letting your child receive different supports or services than the default is not permanent. You can change your mind if it does not seem to be working for her. Maybe see if getting G&T support for half a school year seems to effect any positive change - if so, keep going. If not, put her back in normal coursework.
(2) a lot of gifted kids talk about how they didn't learn how to work hard and were allowed to coast, and that hurt them. That's part of why having extra challenges is important. I tried to quit my gifted math class in fifth grade because it was hard, and I was having to study for the first time in my life, and I didn't know how. My gifted reading teacher worked hard to convince my parents to keep me in that class for exactly that reason - I needed to learn. I wouldn't have learned that in the mainstream classes.
(3) If your kid is indeed ADHD, would you hesitate to accept extra support for her to address the differences in how she processes information? If not, why hesitate for giftedness, which is basically also a difference in how she processes information, just with a particular stigma attached to it?
And if she is gifted, that doesn't mean that she now has to self-identify as Smart (TM). She can self-identify at being good at a very particular thing, and you can allow her to be aware of that and pursue that, just as she might be very good at soccer and want to pursue it at a higher level than a community league, say. What's important is that "smart" is not assumed to be an automatic marker of success, or superiority, or worth.
posted by olinerd at 10:56 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Treat intellectual giftedness like being a very talented athlete. Athletes have to work hard to maintain their conditioning and skills, but there is something innate about them that puts them on a different level than others where hard work allows them to excel where others may not. It doesn't mean they're good or successful at everything in life, just that they are set up to be especially good in that domain. If they only ever played with amateur players, they'd probably be okay and stand out, but may lose enthusiasm. Given good challenges, they could excel and have a lot of pride in and love for what they do. Pushed too hard, they might rebel and hate it.
Similarly, intellectual giftedness is about being very good at traditional schooling and what it tests for. It does not mean they will be incredible businesspeople or great actors or anything else - just that they're very book-smart. Some will be totally happy and fine in a class with typical kids because they benefit from focusing more on their social development. Some will excel and be happy when given extra intellectual challenges (that was me). Some will be pushed too far without support and it will break them.
I think some key things to remember:
(1) any decision you make now about letting your child receive different supports or services than the default is not permanent. You can change your mind if it does not seem to be working for her. Maybe see if getting G&T support for half a school year seems to effect any positive change - if so, keep going. If not, put her back in normal coursework.
(2) a lot of gifted kids talk about how they didn't learn how to work hard and were allowed to coast, and that hurt them. That's part of why having extra challenges is important. I tried to quit my gifted math class in fifth grade because it was hard, and I was having to study for the first time in my life, and I didn't know how. My gifted reading teacher worked hard to convince my parents to keep me in that class for exactly that reason - I needed to learn. I wouldn't have learned that in the mainstream classes.
(3) If your kid is indeed ADHD, would you hesitate to accept extra support for her to address the differences in how she processes information? If not, why hesitate for giftedness, which is basically also a difference in how she processes information, just with a particular stigma attached to it?
And if she is gifted, that doesn't mean that she now has to self-identify as Smart (TM). She can self-identify at being good at a very particular thing, and you can allow her to be aware of that and pursue that, just as she might be very good at soccer and want to pursue it at a higher level than a community league, say. What's important is that "smart" is not assumed to be an automatic marker of success, or superiority, or worth.
posted by olinerd at 10:56 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
One of my kids had huge issues at school when she was in her early teens, so I took her to a psychiatrist to have her checked. It turned out she was hyper intelligent, and yes, bored. It helped to change to another school with a more individual approach to education, but she still struggled a bit through high school. At university she has had a good time and done well.
But that's very different from child to child.
Since I was given the same predicate as a child and suffered from some of the consequences, I have been very focused on helping her with social skills rather than enhancing whatever gift she is supposed to have. In my experience, having friends is much more important than academic achievement. I think my daughter would agree.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 AM on January 29, 2019
But that's very different from child to child.
Since I was given the same predicate as a child and suffered from some of the consequences, I have been very focused on helping her with social skills rather than enhancing whatever gift she is supposed to have. In my experience, having friends is much more important than academic achievement. I think my daughter would agree.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 AM on January 29, 2019
You are going to find a lot of parent groups focused on Gifted with a capital G as a special way of being that is qualitatively different from typical kids, Dabrowski's overexcitabilities, asychronous development, etc. Some of it will feel vaguely eugenicist.
Ultimately, "gifted" means "super smart in the ways that teachers and test developers have decided equal smart". It's the magic word that unlocks all the cool stuff in public schools. Use it to your kid's advantage when you can, but don't let her be defined by it, the same way you wouldn't define her by ADD-related deficits.
(source: former "twice exceptional before that was a thing" kid, recently had a kid in a magnet school best described as "precocious children of pushy parents", strongly opinionated about the kind of people these programs select for)
posted by Flannery Culp at 11:05 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Ultimately, "gifted" means "super smart in the ways that teachers and test developers have decided equal smart". It's the magic word that unlocks all the cool stuff in public schools. Use it to your kid's advantage when you can, but don't let her be defined by it, the same way you wouldn't define her by ADD-related deficits.
(source: former "twice exceptional before that was a thing" kid, recently had a kid in a magnet school best described as "precocious children of pushy parents", strongly opinionated about the kind of people these programs select for)
posted by Flannery Culp at 11:05 AM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I feel like it's also worth pointing out that giftedness and social skills are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I think there's certainly a stereotype and many people do feel that they were boosted in one at the expense of the other, but I had more of an issue standing out as a Smart Kid in a mainstream class (my district's G&T education stopped after fifth grade, so in sixth grade I was thrown in to the regular Language Arts class and my boredom/quickness stood out, to my detriment) than when I started at a private school where I had a peer group of similarly talented friends. We helped each other study, we pushed each other with healthy competition, and we all had very different non-academic skills so we had a healthy diversity of interests to learn from. Most importantly, we didn't feel alone or as though we were targeted or outcast by others. We're still friends to this day (my bff and I live ended up living in the same area and our kids play together now). If your school has a G&T *class* she is occasionally in, rather than just individual tutoring or enrichment, she may greatly benefit from that socially as she is with others like herself.
posted by olinerd at 11:08 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by olinerd at 11:08 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Amazing comments here. Completely agree that there are a lot of resources online, but I wanted to provide a few links that help me navigate life with a 2E kid:
Twice-Exceptional Kids: Both Gifted and Challenged - Child Mind Institute
List of topics concerning Twice Exceptional children including some good intro to evaluations, legal, IEP, 504, etc
National Association for Gifted Children
posted by photovox at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019
Twice-Exceptional Kids: Both Gifted and Challenged - Child Mind Institute
List of topics concerning Twice Exceptional children including some good intro to evaluations, legal, IEP, 504, etc
National Association for Gifted Children
posted by photovox at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019
I'll just add some additional support for what Flannery Culp just said. The thing about all us gifted kids/teens is that we are not by nature gifted adults. We got a lot of rhetoric in my high school that we would change the world and some of us have...some of us have committed suicide...most of us are mid-career career types and doing fine but not like, standouts. But it doesn't sound like you're likely to take that on as a core identity. (Daughter, or Parent of Gifted Daughter.)
posted by warriorqueen at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
ADHD and labelled as gifted, here. There are lots of us around. Your daughter is very lucky to have both of these issues identified early rather than just the giftedness, which is far more typical.
Gifted is just a bit smarter than average. It really isn't a huge deal, doesn't make her an alien or something, school things will just come a bit easier than most kids and she may have trouble relating to kids on the "lower" end of the IQ spectrum (which is not 1-dimensional, but I don't know how to word it better). You don't need to (and shouldn't) make a huge deal of it to her, as that can be harmful.
But. Being gifted will most likely do one very harmful/helpful thing: partially compensate for the ADHD.
Please, please, please don't ignore the ADHD aspect if she gets good grades. This is so common it seems borderline universal in gifted kids with ADHD. "Good" grades do not mean the ADHD is not having a negative effect on her development and learning. Often as long as we do better than the average (which is easy just by showing up, not even paying attention or trying), everyone is happy, other than telling us we aren't "reaching our potential" but not actually being too mad about it. If homework is worth 30% of the grade, she can still do OK if she forgets to do it half the time but gets 90s on the tests. Etc.
So we are never ever taught the importance of work ethic, organization, etc etc, let alone taught how to do it, and have no idea how to do it later in life when we actually need to. Causes huge, huge problems in university and later in life (which is more often when we tend to get our ADHD diagnosis). So....don't be like most parents of ADHD-gifted kids. Look at more than just grades and "behaving in class" (girls with ADHD are often daydreamers more than hyperactive, so they are very often considered to have no behaviour issues). ADHD is very likely to cause problems that don't show up there.
posted by randomnity at 11:19 AM on January 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
Gifted is just a bit smarter than average. It really isn't a huge deal, doesn't make her an alien or something, school things will just come a bit easier than most kids and she may have trouble relating to kids on the "lower" end of the IQ spectrum (which is not 1-dimensional, but I don't know how to word it better). You don't need to (and shouldn't) make a huge deal of it to her, as that can be harmful.
But. Being gifted will most likely do one very harmful/helpful thing: partially compensate for the ADHD.
Please, please, please don't ignore the ADHD aspect if she gets good grades. This is so common it seems borderline universal in gifted kids with ADHD. "Good" grades do not mean the ADHD is not having a negative effect on her development and learning. Often as long as we do better than the average (which is easy just by showing up, not even paying attention or trying), everyone is happy, other than telling us we aren't "reaching our potential" but not actually being too mad about it. If homework is worth 30% of the grade, she can still do OK if she forgets to do it half the time but gets 90s on the tests. Etc.
So we are never ever taught the importance of work ethic, organization, etc etc, let alone taught how to do it, and have no idea how to do it later in life when we actually need to. Causes huge, huge problems in university and later in life (which is more often when we tend to get our ADHD diagnosis). So....don't be like most parents of ADHD-gifted kids. Look at more than just grades and "behaving in class" (girls with ADHD are often daydreamers more than hyperactive, so they are very often considered to have no behaviour issues). ADHD is very likely to cause problems that don't show up there.
posted by randomnity at 11:19 AM on January 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
Don't over think it.
I have 3 boys. All 3 are now teens to early 20's. All were tested 'gifted' in some fashion or another. The eldest and youngest were tested and ADHD. The middle one, some emotional things.
(and looking way back, I was also was id'd as 'advanced' or whatever it is - pushed ahead a grade in certain subjects, etc..)
Anyway - your daughter is 8. Don't be confused, don't be so worried.
1. mentions of IEP's and so on - all that depends on your individual state laws and how they handle IEP's, and similar things (in NJ they also have "504's" which is reference to a specific legislative measure).. anyway.. good to prep and educate yourself on what your state does have, etc. But not to worry about it yet.
2. If the ADHD is affecting her work, then likely it is good to first work coping strategies before anything else. BUT - and a BIG BUT - she is 8. So still cognitively developing. Some behavior could very easily be maturity level.
My eldest was immature. We finally started intervening around 3rd/4th grade with some success. He took focalin during 5th grade and took himself off before 6th.
Cue up middle school, and, well, he was fine. Rarely did homework. But coasted through school. Tested into a 'high level' public school for high school. Got into every college he applied to. Is doing fine now, knows he still has some focusing issues in longer classes. He might go see the doctor about that, but he's doing fine.
Point is - there is a LOT of time between 8 years old and high school. You aren't going to 'ruin' your child. All kids are different. Some can be problem children, acting out. Some can be better behaved. Parenting doesn't change - have expectations of her, expect her to follow them, but help her get there as well.
If she doesn't test well - psychologist/psychiatrist can help identifying specifics; standardized test? Reading? Do they need extra time for specific things? Again, this is 8 years old, so IMHO is a bit early to get too prescriptive about any of this. But a good time for learning and finding where the edges are.
And on preview - randomnity highlights what I was trying to say above; structure is ADHD's best friend. Learning to create some level of schedule and order - so, get a whiteboard and create a calendar. Have events structured and consistent, and try and reduce randomness and craziness - it's not that it is bad, but it makes it much easier to set expectations and make it easy for those expectations to be met.
posted by rich at 11:23 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I have 3 boys. All 3 are now teens to early 20's. All were tested 'gifted' in some fashion or another. The eldest and youngest were tested and ADHD. The middle one, some emotional things.
(and looking way back, I was also was id'd as 'advanced' or whatever it is - pushed ahead a grade in certain subjects, etc..)
Anyway - your daughter is 8. Don't be confused, don't be so worried.
1. mentions of IEP's and so on - all that depends on your individual state laws and how they handle IEP's, and similar things (in NJ they also have "504's" which is reference to a specific legislative measure).. anyway.. good to prep and educate yourself on what your state does have, etc. But not to worry about it yet.
2. If the ADHD is affecting her work, then likely it is good to first work coping strategies before anything else. BUT - and a BIG BUT - she is 8. So still cognitively developing. Some behavior could very easily be maturity level.
My eldest was immature. We finally started intervening around 3rd/4th grade with some success. He took focalin during 5th grade and took himself off before 6th.
Cue up middle school, and, well, he was fine. Rarely did homework. But coasted through school. Tested into a 'high level' public school for high school. Got into every college he applied to. Is doing fine now, knows he still has some focusing issues in longer classes. He might go see the doctor about that, but he's doing fine.
Point is - there is a LOT of time between 8 years old and high school. You aren't going to 'ruin' your child. All kids are different. Some can be problem children, acting out. Some can be better behaved. Parenting doesn't change - have expectations of her, expect her to follow them, but help her get there as well.
If she doesn't test well - psychologist/psychiatrist can help identifying specifics; standardized test? Reading? Do they need extra time for specific things? Again, this is 8 years old, so IMHO is a bit early to get too prescriptive about any of this. But a good time for learning and finding where the edges are.
And on preview - randomnity highlights what I was trying to say above; structure is ADHD's best friend. Learning to create some level of schedule and order - so, get a whiteboard and create a calendar. Have events structured and consistent, and try and reduce randomness and craziness - it's not that it is bad, but it makes it much easier to set expectations and make it easy for those expectations to be met.
posted by rich at 11:23 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I also generally agree with the comments above about giftedness in general, but urge you to consider the ADHD aspect as well, as it very much interacts with the whole giftedness thing. I was given a lot of leeway for "oh she's just bored because she knows it already", which was often true, but also meant that the issues stemming from ADHD rather than boredom weren't addressed.
posted by randomnity at 11:26 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by randomnity at 11:26 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Surprisingly, there is no one universally agreed upon definition of giftedness! There is a federal definition of giftedness in the US, but states and districts do not have to agree to it and can make their own - or may not have one at all!
I recommend that you go to the NAGC's FAQ, which will address many of your questions and will provide the federal definition, and click on the link to find your state's particular policy and practice information.
Remember that it is your choice to disclose your child's school if they have been identified as intellectually gifted. You're not obligated to tell anyone if you don't want to! And if you do disclose, and want her to be formally identified as gifted, there may be an evaluation/nomination process (again, click the link to view your state's information, and be aware that you may need to drill down to your county/district).
You can also reach out to your daughter's school's gifted teacher, who should be more than happy to explain what giftedness is and how gifted students are serviced in her particular context. You don't need to tell her that your daughter has been identified by the tester; just tell her that you're curious. If you don't know how to reach the gifted teacher, just ask your daughter's classroom teacher to connect you, call the main office, or check the school's website - there's probably a page for gifted services.
posted by the thought-fox at 11:27 AM on January 29, 2019
I recommend that you go to the NAGC's FAQ, which will address many of your questions and will provide the federal definition, and click on the link to find your state's particular policy and practice information.
Remember that it is your choice to disclose your child's school if they have been identified as intellectually gifted. You're not obligated to tell anyone if you don't want to! And if you do disclose, and want her to be formally identified as gifted, there may be an evaluation/nomination process (again, click the link to view your state's information, and be aware that you may need to drill down to your county/district).
You can also reach out to your daughter's school's gifted teacher, who should be more than happy to explain what giftedness is and how gifted students are serviced in her particular context. You don't need to tell her that your daughter has been identified by the tester; just tell her that you're curious. If you don't know how to reach the gifted teacher, just ask your daughter's classroom teacher to connect you, call the main office, or check the school's website - there's probably a page for gifted services.
posted by the thought-fox at 11:27 AM on January 29, 2019
Response by poster: Info about public school and G+T classes is helpful for others for sure - I just wanted to say we're in Canada - the school system is different and I'll have to talk to our school to see what services are available, but we don't have G+T schools or classes, that I'm aware of.
posted by kitcat at 11:28 AM on January 29, 2019
posted by kitcat at 11:28 AM on January 29, 2019
"Bored" sounds trivial. It's not.
posted by amtho at 11:30 AM on January 29, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by amtho at 11:30 AM on January 29, 2019 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure what there is in Alberta, but we do have gifted classes in Ontario - both the extracurricular variety in younger grades, and the all-gifted-kids-in-one-class variety at certain high schools, which kids bus to from all over the city.
posted by randomnity at 11:36 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by randomnity at 11:36 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Another former 'gifted' kid here. Now, this is going back 35 years in my case, but getting the label didn't mean all that much. There was a testing component, but what the results were, I was never told (I had the option -- me personally -- but I decided not to). I was said to have been bored, but I remember it more as being disinterested. If it didn't have any appeal for me, I simply zoned out. That may be a little different than 'I know this already'.
We 'gifted' kids were hauled out of class once every six day cycle, and taken to another school for 'self-directed learning', which was, frankly, a higher form of babysitting. Let the kids do whatever they want and call it self-directed. No structure, no program, no plan. We were still responsible for the material we missed back at our regular school.
What we didn't know at the time was that there was a financial motivation for the school to get us kids labeled as gifted. It put the school in line for extra funding for this extra education we were getting -- this 'self-directed learning'. The school got extra bucks, didn't actually have to DO anything for those bucks, everybody's happy. Gifted kids were a resource draw.
So it wasn't all altruistic getting that label. There was an alienating aspect to being labeled 'gifted', that I was different/better (*shudder*) than the other kids, and that did nothing for me as an already socially-awkward kid. The missed workload produced its own problems. Expectations on me were much higher because I had this label, and that wasn't necessarily fair or even beneficial.
SO. Given that much has likely changed since that time, I would suggest being open and hearing what the psychologist and the school have to say and offer, but be guarded about it. They all have their own agendas, and they do not necessarily align with what's best for your daughter.
Good luck.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:02 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
We 'gifted' kids were hauled out of class once every six day cycle, and taken to another school for 'self-directed learning', which was, frankly, a higher form of babysitting. Let the kids do whatever they want and call it self-directed. No structure, no program, no plan. We were still responsible for the material we missed back at our regular school.
What we didn't know at the time was that there was a financial motivation for the school to get us kids labeled as gifted. It put the school in line for extra funding for this extra education we were getting -- this 'self-directed learning'. The school got extra bucks, didn't actually have to DO anything for those bucks, everybody's happy. Gifted kids were a resource draw.
So it wasn't all altruistic getting that label. There was an alienating aspect to being labeled 'gifted', that I was different/better (*shudder*) than the other kids, and that did nothing for me as an already socially-awkward kid. The missed workload produced its own problems. Expectations on me were much higher because I had this label, and that wasn't necessarily fair or even beneficial.
SO. Given that much has likely changed since that time, I would suggest being open and hearing what the psychologist and the school have to say and offer, but be guarded about it. They all have their own agendas, and they do not necessarily align with what's best for your daughter.
Good luck.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:02 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Adhd woman and was a recognized "gifted" student in school. Came here just to say that if you're still trying to wrap your head around gifted as a concept, this is what my gifted instructors told me:
"Bright children know all the answers. Gifted children ask all the questions."
A big part of it is intellectual curiosity.
Please do everything you can to nurture this and read all the books, particularly about girls and women coping with ADHD. Intelligence, giftedness and ADHD are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
posted by nightrecordings at 12:07 PM on January 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
"Bright children know all the answers. Gifted children ask all the questions."
A big part of it is intellectual curiosity.
Please do everything you can to nurture this and read all the books, particularly about girls and women coping with ADHD. Intelligence, giftedness and ADHD are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
posted by nightrecordings at 12:07 PM on January 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
Unless they are useful for admission into some program that you think might actually benefit your child, I would resist the label--and the accompanying narrative--as much as possible. They're really not all that useful, but they are ridiculously loaded and fraught. I think in most circumstances they do more harm than good.
Yeah. I'm was 8 years old (exactly) 3 decades ago, but I have to agree with the "not all that useful" label. And really really agree with "more harm than good".
Because of a medical issue when I was 4ish, I had pretty bad eye-hand coordination, speech, and handwriting by the time I went to elementary school. My communication was so terrible, there was debate about whether or not I required a computer or something in order to get me on a level playing field with my peers.
Well, 3rd grade rolled around and I did the "gifted" assessment along with everyone else, and I tested with a genius level IQ and I was ranked in the 1 percentile. Well, even though nothing at all had changed with me, the narrative switched from "what can we do to help him in school?" to "he is incredibly smart, any disabilities would be offset anyway by his intelligence".
That attitude of "it all works out anyway" followed me all the through high school. In fact, it got worse when I scored very high on the PSAT even though my grades were pretty mediocre. The narrative there changed from "not every kid in cut out to do well in the game of life" to "he's making a mockery of the system and he should be punished".
I'm getting incredibly angry just writing this out, 20 years after leaving high school. Everything worked out great in my life (career-wise I've certainly out-earned everyone who said I'd never amount to anything many time over), but going from "kid who needs help" to "kid who is gifted" really made me miserable. I'd be careful to make sure your daughter also doesn't have a "well she's smart so it all works out" situation happen to her if she tests as "gifted".
Of course my experience is 30 years old. Perhaps people have figured out how to treat us smart kids with problems since then.
posted by sideshow at 12:16 PM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yeah. I'm was 8 years old (exactly) 3 decades ago, but I have to agree with the "not all that useful" label. And really really agree with "more harm than good".
Because of a medical issue when I was 4ish, I had pretty bad eye-hand coordination, speech, and handwriting by the time I went to elementary school. My communication was so terrible, there was debate about whether or not I required a computer or something in order to get me on a level playing field with my peers.
Well, 3rd grade rolled around and I did the "gifted" assessment along with everyone else, and I tested with a genius level IQ and I was ranked in the 1 percentile. Well, even though nothing at all had changed with me, the narrative switched from "what can we do to help him in school?" to "he is incredibly smart, any disabilities would be offset anyway by his intelligence".
That attitude of "it all works out anyway" followed me all the through high school. In fact, it got worse when I scored very high on the PSAT even though my grades were pretty mediocre. The narrative there changed from "not every kid in cut out to do well in the game of life" to "he's making a mockery of the system and he should be punished".
I'm getting incredibly angry just writing this out, 20 years after leaving high school. Everything worked out great in my life (career-wise I've certainly out-earned everyone who said I'd never amount to anything many time over), but going from "kid who needs help" to "kid who is gifted" really made me miserable. I'd be careful to make sure your daughter also doesn't have a "well she's smart so it all works out" situation happen to her if she tests as "gifted".
Of course my experience is 30 years old. Perhaps people have figured out how to treat us smart kids with problems since then.
posted by sideshow at 12:16 PM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
I was "gifted", all my siblings were "gifted", my husband is "gifted".
The only thing I have to add to the above is to please support your child "against" the teacher. Mr. Meat got in trouble in elementary school for reading during recess (come on, it was HOT, he was bored, and sports are not his thing), and his mother stifled laughter at the teacher for this. LET THE CHILD READ! An encyclopedia was the best thing ever.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:35 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
The only thing I have to add to the above is to please support your child "against" the teacher. Mr. Meat got in trouble in elementary school for reading during recess (come on, it was HOT, he was bored, and sports are not his thing), and his mother stifled laughter at the teacher for this. LET THE CHILD READ! An encyclopedia was the best thing ever.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:35 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
"...where I had a peer group of similarly talented friends."
In my case, this was definitely true, and it remains the highlight of my time in the 'gifted' program. Our program itself was a bit of a scam, but it was good that I got to be with these other kids. We were all different people interested in different things, but that didn't matter -- we have that shared experience, and got it in a 'safe' area. We all went through Smart Kid Jail together.
The thing about all us gifted kids/teens is that we are not by nature gifted adults.
This is also true of my gang. I'm doing OK but not great, others are still struggling all these decades later. The pressure of expectation can be nasty, as is its flip side, of past promise having gone unfulfilled and 'what happened? where did I go wrong?'
Unless they are useful for admission into some program that you think might actually benefit your child, I would resist the label--and the accompanying narrative--as much as possible.
THIS.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:39 PM on January 29, 2019
In my case, this was definitely true, and it remains the highlight of my time in the 'gifted' program. Our program itself was a bit of a scam, but it was good that I got to be with these other kids. We were all different people interested in different things, but that didn't matter -- we have that shared experience, and got it in a 'safe' area. We all went through Smart Kid Jail together.
The thing about all us gifted kids/teens is that we are not by nature gifted adults.
This is also true of my gang. I'm doing OK but not great, others are still struggling all these decades later. The pressure of expectation can be nasty, as is its flip side, of past promise having gone unfulfilled and 'what happened? where did I go wrong?'
Unless they are useful for admission into some program that you think might actually benefit your child, I would resist the label--and the accompanying narrative--as much as possible.
THIS.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:39 PM on January 29, 2019
I think it really REALLY depends on the school? I am 43 and was tested as gifted in 3rd grade -- and I was absolutely the best reader in my class by leaps and bounds -- and basically my teachers just gave me novels to read instead of whatever the rest of the class was reading. (Obviously, this was a long time ago.) (Not random novels. Like Little Women or Caddie Woodlawn -- kid appropriate novels.) I went to the 4th grade class for reading for a while, but it was ultimately making me unhappy, so they didn't keep that up very long. (I will note that you shouldn't expect your kid to be great and brilliant at every thing -- I am talented in terms of language arts but I'm not great at math. It was a world-changer when my parents explained that I actually needed to do my math homework every night because that's how you LEARN MATH. I thought it was like my English classes where I could just do the work in one fell swoop when I got around to it.)
My parents really never made a big deal about it to me. I can see in retrospect that they worked hard to make sure I had an excellent education (I ended up going to an academically rigorous high school), and they literally let me read whatever I want, and expected me to get good grades, but I was NOT over-scheduled w. academic stuff and they also let me screw around and do nothing for hours if I wanted to. (I do not have ADHD.) I was always a socially gregarious kid and that continued more or less my entire life.
It is not a bad thing or a problem to have a gifted child! It's something to manage the way you'd manage a kid who was, like, great at ballet or something. It's part and parcel of her little brain and that's great, but it's also not all that she is. (I agree about the intellectual curiosity thing -- if she's interested in whatever weird thing, let her immerse herself in it [I was really into EGYPT but I also would literally flip through the encyclopedia and read about random stuff if I got bored at home].) I think the best thing my Mom and Dad did was never really make my smartness A Thing. I saw similarly smart kids burn out, but that wasn't really an issue for me.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 12:50 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
My parents really never made a big deal about it to me. I can see in retrospect that they worked hard to make sure I had an excellent education (I ended up going to an academically rigorous high school), and they literally let me read whatever I want, and expected me to get good grades, but I was NOT over-scheduled w. academic stuff and they also let me screw around and do nothing for hours if I wanted to. (I do not have ADHD.) I was always a socially gregarious kid and that continued more or less my entire life.
It is not a bad thing or a problem to have a gifted child! It's something to manage the way you'd manage a kid who was, like, great at ballet or something. It's part and parcel of her little brain and that's great, but it's also not all that she is. (I agree about the intellectual curiosity thing -- if she's interested in whatever weird thing, let her immerse herself in it [I was really into EGYPT but I also would literally flip through the encyclopedia and read about random stuff if I got bored at home].) I think the best thing my Mom and Dad did was never really make my smartness A Thing. I saw similarly smart kids burn out, but that wasn't really an issue for me.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 12:50 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Info about public school and G+T classes is helpful for others for sure - I just wanted to say we're in Canada - the school system is different and I'll have to talk to our school to see what services are available, but we don't have G+T schools or classes, that I'm aware of.
This isn't true, there are definitely schoolboards with entire gifted streams in Canada(I was placed in one in Ontario). I would urge you to peruse this pamphlet that goes through many of the items conjectured at in this thread for your province, which, based on your profile, I believe is Alberta.
Overall, while you are getting a flavour of the spectrum of experiences that gifted kids go through in this thread, I would suggest that this approach is actually not useful for you, and may cause more anxiety than necessary. The nature of your "gifted kid" experience depends entirely on your child, your family, and your school system. You will get much more useful information by speaking to your school, your schoolboard, and other parents in your locale.
posted by sid at 12:56 PM on January 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
This isn't true, there are definitely schoolboards with entire gifted streams in Canada(I was placed in one in Ontario). I would urge you to peruse this pamphlet that goes through many of the items conjectured at in this thread for your province, which, based on your profile, I believe is Alberta.
Overall, while you are getting a flavour of the spectrum of experiences that gifted kids go through in this thread, I would suggest that this approach is actually not useful for you, and may cause more anxiety than necessary. The nature of your "gifted kid" experience depends entirely on your child, your family, and your school system. You will get much more useful information by speaking to your school, your schoolboard, and other parents in your locale.
posted by sid at 12:56 PM on January 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
I'm older than most frequenters of this site, so my second-grade experience back in 1962 might be of interest, if only as an illustration of how educational policies have changed.
My teacher must have said something to the school administrators but nobody told me a thing. That was why I was surprised to be pulled from the classroom and introduced to a psychologist. He administered a series of logic, mathematical, and reading comp. tests.
Evidently there was really no set procedure for dealing with a "gifted" child,at least in Iowa and in that grade school. From on high I was given permission to check out books from the sixth-grade classroom library. Well, that was cool, and I entered a sixth-grade classroom for the first time.
After the teacher showed me where the bookshelves were I scanned the titles. A group of alarmingly large sixth-grade boys gathered around me.
"Haw, haw! This punk kid can't read these books!"
The boy pulled out a random book, opened it, and said, "Hey, faker! Read this out loud!"
I did and the sixth-graders left me alone after that.
posted by Agave at 1:03 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
My teacher must have said something to the school administrators but nobody told me a thing. That was why I was surprised to be pulled from the classroom and introduced to a psychologist. He administered a series of logic, mathematical, and reading comp. tests.
Evidently there was really no set procedure for dealing with a "gifted" child,at least in Iowa and in that grade school. From on high I was given permission to check out books from the sixth-grade classroom library. Well, that was cool, and I entered a sixth-grade classroom for the first time.
After the teacher showed me where the bookshelves were I scanned the titles. A group of alarmingly large sixth-grade boys gathered around me.
"Haw, haw! This punk kid can't read these books!"
The boy pulled out a random book, opened it, and said, "Hey, faker! Read this out loud!"
I did and the sixth-graders left me alone after that.
posted by Agave at 1:03 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Maybe my frame of reference is skewed because I work adjacent to education, but I'm a little surprised that you've never encountered gifted programs in Canada. Gifted ed is as much a long-standing part of Canadian public education as is French Immersion. Big-city Alberta most certainly has gifted programs and has for at least a generation, just like other parts of Canada. My colleagues have children in public school gifted and talented programs in Calgary. I myself was in one form of gifted/enhanced ed or another in Ontario public schools from Grade 1 in the early 1990s through to Grade 12; I certainly don't find it uncommon to run into another mid-30-something (including folks who grew up in Edmonton) who was in gifted ed at some point.
If you're from another part of Canada, the terms you might be more familiar with is "enhanced" or "enriched". Some districts are lucky enough to have full-day programs in separate classrooms for almost all grades; other school boards only provide pull-out enrichment activities. You're probably around a lot of people who have some experience with this.
posted by blerghamot at 1:19 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
If you're from another part of Canada, the terms you might be more familiar with is "enhanced" or "enriched". Some districts are lucky enough to have full-day programs in separate classrooms for almost all grades; other school boards only provide pull-out enrichment activities. You're probably around a lot of people who have some experience with this.
posted by blerghamot at 1:19 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm somewhere in-between Agave's experience and the others in this thread.
I was diagnosed as being "gifted" early in my education - meaning that I tested well, and had a high capacity to learn - very early on. I was admitted into the Gifted program that our school district offered, and then, after 3rd grade, was invited to skip a grade and join the merely "high-performing" fifth graders in the most advanced 5th grade classes. My parents offered me the choice. I accepted it.
I will say this - if I remained at the age-appropriate level of education, had I had not tested as being as "gifted", the level of boredom and hyperactivity I had as a young male would have been seen as being pathological and not that of just being a smart kid. At school, I would have been seen as being hyperactive... but had you put me in an office, I would have been able to keep up with anyone's real-life work without any issues whatsoever.
But I was pushed a little too far. I was skipped a grade into the high-performing track for that grade, and then later, given my success after in the high-performing track after having had skipped a grade (!), pulled into the gifted program for the grade above my actual age. Before, I felt like an outsider, and always felt like I was working harder than anyone else, but later no wonder! I was already a year and a half younger than anyone else, and the younger gifted kids felt that I wasn't "so" gifted that I was actually a "prodigy".
In the end, I made it out, and I'm still friends will many of the smart, normal-aged kids that I was compared with after I was skipped into a prior grade. I had a successful career, and have done well for myself. No regrets, in the end.
But, and this is the big but - it took me a long time to recalibrate from the social changes of being the smart kid amongst those my age and being someone 1-2 years younger than everyone else in my grade. If this is merely a matter of your kid being someone testing ahead of schedule, and someone who benefits from taking on advanced coursework, by all means, let your smart kid take it on even if you didn't think they were up for it. But if you're presented with the opportunity that they actually skip a grade, with the potential for isolation for your kid from peers their own age - you may want to raise an eyebrow and just keep them in the "smart kid" track for what their own age would have allowed.
Best of luck.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:23 PM on January 29, 2019
I was diagnosed as being "gifted" early in my education - meaning that I tested well, and had a high capacity to learn - very early on. I was admitted into the Gifted program that our school district offered, and then, after 3rd grade, was invited to skip a grade and join the merely "high-performing" fifth graders in the most advanced 5th grade classes. My parents offered me the choice. I accepted it.
I will say this - if I remained at the age-appropriate level of education, had I had not tested as being as "gifted", the level of boredom and hyperactivity I had as a young male would have been seen as being pathological and not that of just being a smart kid. At school, I would have been seen as being hyperactive... but had you put me in an office, I would have been able to keep up with anyone's real-life work without any issues whatsoever.
But I was pushed a little too far. I was skipped a grade into the high-performing track for that grade, and then later, given my success after in the high-performing track after having had skipped a grade (!), pulled into the gifted program for the grade above my actual age. Before, I felt like an outsider, and always felt like I was working harder than anyone else, but later no wonder! I was already a year and a half younger than anyone else, and the younger gifted kids felt that I wasn't "so" gifted that I was actually a "prodigy".
In the end, I made it out, and I'm still friends will many of the smart, normal-aged kids that I was compared with after I was skipped into a prior grade. I had a successful career, and have done well for myself. No regrets, in the end.
But, and this is the big but - it took me a long time to recalibrate from the social changes of being the smart kid amongst those my age and being someone 1-2 years younger than everyone else in my grade. If this is merely a matter of your kid being someone testing ahead of schedule, and someone who benefits from taking on advanced coursework, by all means, let your smart kid take it on even if you didn't think they were up for it. But if you're presented with the opportunity that they actually skip a grade, with the potential for isolation for your kid from peers their own age - you may want to raise an eyebrow and just keep them in the "smart kid" track for what their own age would have allowed.
Best of luck.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:23 PM on January 29, 2019
I was identified as “gifted” as a child, and not diagnosed with ADHD until recently (in my 40s) after a lifetime of shame about not living up to my potential. Less than a year into treating the ADHD, and I’m finally feeling like I am going somewhere in my career. I have so much regret for lost time and opportunities.
I think that while boredom and ADHD could easily look the same in a classroom, the point of the assessment is to distinguish between them. For me, the being gifted meant that I was able to look like I was doing fine for a long time even though I was really cramming and coasting and barely present.
posted by Kriesa at 1:30 PM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think that while boredom and ADHD could easily look the same in a classroom, the point of the assessment is to distinguish between them. For me, the being gifted meant that I was able to look like I was doing fine for a long time even though I was really cramming and coasting and barely present.
posted by Kriesa at 1:30 PM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I was diagnosed gifted and nothing was done about it; I ended up as others in the thread - bored, good at acing tests with no preparation, heavily motivated by deadline panic, and not developing ANY study skills. I honestly got my (hard science) degree by skipping 80% of classes, reading books occasionally, and taking tests. I wish I had been challenged in school and gotten to learn how to study and work hard at learning; I would be a lot farther ahead than I am now.
I remember shouting at a classmate in grade 6 that she wasn't allowed to lead our group project because she wasn't good at spelling!!! (sorry classmate.. I was a jerk)
Find out what the gifted program means - what skills do they teach? Do they encourage self-directed learning at a higher level? Do they encourage gifted kids to tutor lower-level kids? The best experience I had was in a multi-level algebra class in jr high where all kids were grouped in one class and those of us who were rocking trig were paired with kids who were learning 3x=15. I LOVED it and it was a super environment for challenging all levels and teaching patience and participation.
posted by some chick at 1:40 PM on January 29, 2019
I remember shouting at a classmate in grade 6 that she wasn't allowed to lead our group project because she wasn't good at spelling!!! (sorry classmate.. I was a jerk)
Find out what the gifted program means - what skills do they teach? Do they encourage self-directed learning at a higher level? Do they encourage gifted kids to tutor lower-level kids? The best experience I had was in a multi-level algebra class in jr high where all kids were grouped in one class and those of us who were rocking trig were paired with kids who were learning 3x=15. I LOVED it and it was a super environment for challenging all levels and teaching patience and participation.
posted by some chick at 1:40 PM on January 29, 2019
I wish my school had spent the time and resources testing me for "gifted" classes diagnosing and treating my ADHD instead. I wish I went to a university with special programs designed for ADHD and learning disabled students, rather than an elite, hypercompetitive school geared toward high-functioning neurotypicals (that I was admitted to largely on the strenght of my standardized test scores and extracurricular achievements, like many other posters here). I'd be light years better off for it now, at 35.
Given my severe executive functioning issues, the gifted label has been nothing more than an albatross around my neck, and further salt in the wound of my many failures. My advice: Forget the gifted stuff until you get your child's possible ADHD/learning disability/whatever other impariments sorted out first.
posted by shaademaan at 1:51 PM on January 29, 2019 [11 favorites]
Given my severe executive functioning issues, the gifted label has been nothing more than an albatross around my neck, and further salt in the wound of my many failures. My advice: Forget the gifted stuff until you get your child's possible ADHD/learning disability/whatever other impariments sorted out first.
posted by shaademaan at 1:51 PM on January 29, 2019 [11 favorites]
I was put into gifted programs starting in fifth grade and frankly haven't thought about it for years—in my school it just meant doing some fun enrichment activities during a special class period. I was successful at school and am a successful, somewhat well-adjusted adult.
Meanwhile, my equally intelligent sister has ADHD, didn't get the support she needed, and school was awful for her.
I don't think a "gifted" label means much in terms of educational success or failure, because it encompasses such a wide range of personalities and situations.
posted by toastedcheese at 1:58 PM on January 29, 2019
Meanwhile, my equally intelligent sister has ADHD, didn't get the support she needed, and school was awful for her.
I don't think a "gifted" label means much in terms of educational success or failure, because it encompasses such a wide range of personalities and situations.
posted by toastedcheese at 1:58 PM on January 29, 2019
"I was "gifted", all my siblings were "gifted", my husband is "gifted". "
Ditto here. My siblings and I remained in a high-socioeconomic-status public school system and my mother strenuously resisted attempts to skip us ahead or send us to special schools. There were plenty of other "gifted" kids in my school (as noted, high-SES) so I always had peers and it was never like "the smartest kid in class" (which is so toxic) but always "one of that group of kids who are good at school stuff" and it was not a big deal. There were varying enrichments in place early on for gifted students; later when classes were tracked it was mostly just through tracking. I'm still friends with most of the kids I went to kindergarten with (gifted and not), I had a normal amount of growing-up dramarama and I was a bit socially immature but it evened out by high school and I was always part of the broader school community.
My husband on the other hand was in a system where he was singled out, skipped ahead, told he was extra special, etc. etc. etc. and it was hella toxic and extremely isolating. Other kids resented how the teachers made a big deal of him and they teased him; being with kids older than him was difficult; and he was constantly told at home and at school that he was extremely special and Not Like Those Other Kids. (College, where everybody was "gifted," was quite a rude shock.) He still struggles with some of the toxic messages he got from that, and doesn't really have friends from childhood since the adults responsible for his education worked so hard to isolate him.
So being "gifted" can be very low-drama and normal, just with lots of enhanced academic experiences that are delightful for a child who loves to learn, or it can be a borderline abusive, toxic label that fucks kids up for years. And there is, of course, no One Right Way to parent a gifted child any more than there's one right way to parent any child -- some kids really benefit from skipping ahead; others thrive in multi-age classrooms; others do better in a magnet school setting; others are happiest in a large public high school with 5500 other kids. You know your kid best! You can figure out together what setting/program will best nurture her talents without fucking her up. (And, yeah, as others have said -- giftedness has had no particular impact on my kindergarten peers' long-term success or happiness!)
I will say I'm a parent of a gifted child with a significant neurodiversity -- or "2xe" -- and I have found 2xe parent groups worse than useless. They tend to be full of people who think that giftedness makes their child super-special (and who are pursuing the isolate-and-inflate mode my husband suffered through), who cling to it as a label, and who love medical woo in its many forms. I had much better luck at communities for my child's neurodiversity, where plenty of other parents had gifted children but weren't quite so overdramatic about it!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:41 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Ditto here. My siblings and I remained in a high-socioeconomic-status public school system and my mother strenuously resisted attempts to skip us ahead or send us to special schools. There were plenty of other "gifted" kids in my school (as noted, high-SES) so I always had peers and it was never like "the smartest kid in class" (which is so toxic) but always "one of that group of kids who are good at school stuff" and it was not a big deal. There were varying enrichments in place early on for gifted students; later when classes were tracked it was mostly just through tracking. I'm still friends with most of the kids I went to kindergarten with (gifted and not), I had a normal amount of growing-up dramarama and I was a bit socially immature but it evened out by high school and I was always part of the broader school community.
My husband on the other hand was in a system where he was singled out, skipped ahead, told he was extra special, etc. etc. etc. and it was hella toxic and extremely isolating. Other kids resented how the teachers made a big deal of him and they teased him; being with kids older than him was difficult; and he was constantly told at home and at school that he was extremely special and Not Like Those Other Kids. (College, where everybody was "gifted," was quite a rude shock.) He still struggles with some of the toxic messages he got from that, and doesn't really have friends from childhood since the adults responsible for his education worked so hard to isolate him.
So being "gifted" can be very low-drama and normal, just with lots of enhanced academic experiences that are delightful for a child who loves to learn, or it can be a borderline abusive, toxic label that fucks kids up for years. And there is, of course, no One Right Way to parent a gifted child any more than there's one right way to parent any child -- some kids really benefit from skipping ahead; others thrive in multi-age classrooms; others do better in a magnet school setting; others are happiest in a large public high school with 5500 other kids. You know your kid best! You can figure out together what setting/program will best nurture her talents without fucking her up. (And, yeah, as others have said -- giftedness has had no particular impact on my kindergarten peers' long-term success or happiness!)
I will say I'm a parent of a gifted child with a significant neurodiversity -- or "2xe" -- and I have found 2xe parent groups worse than useless. They tend to be full of people who think that giftedness makes their child super-special (and who are pursuing the isolate-and-inflate mode my husband suffered through), who cling to it as a label, and who love medical woo in its many forms. I had much better luck at communities for my child's neurodiversity, where plenty of other parents had gifted children but weren't quite so overdramatic about it!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:41 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: The document sid provided in the answer I've marked as best is exactly what I need, for my exact area, to boot - thank you! Also, Edmonton apparently has 4 elementary schools with accelerated programs, sorry to misinform.
posted by kitcat at 2:55 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 2:55 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Career educator (general, special education, and G&T experience), B and C student in school, proudly non-gifted person, who is not your child's teacher, etc..
I want to echo, amplify, and emend queenofbithynia's comments: gifted in school settings is a euphemism for tests well, which is usually a side effect of being smart (or just a side effect of being very compliant and attentive to instructions and coming from a middle-class background.)
This is mostly true. But, see, "smart" (what's called "smart" in schools) is a confluence of privileges including English-language fluency, cultural savvy, social acumen, political ability, whiteness, family connection, tractability, "maturity," visual-spatial processing, quantitative reasoning, knowledge, fluid reasoning, attentional regulation, working memory, the cluster of executive function that's so hip in 2019, and physiological development. The idea of a g-factor intelligence (traditional "IQ") is – at best – a hyper-simplification and flattening of these concepts. At worst, psychometric intelligence (and its humanities-bound brother, "giftedness") is a measurement of worthiness. While both terms are used in short-hand in schools, they're increasingly out of step with the best understandings of child development.
Seriously, look no further than into the racial disparities in enrollment in G&T programs –– here or here or here.
In my experience, "gifted" programs (and the "gifted" designation in records) are elastic containers for extremely capable students who might need a little extra TLC in some specific area, but don't have any measurable disability, or whose disability cannot be addressed in another program. Placement in G&T classes can mean anything or nothing. Gifted children, rather than being globally off the charts, have usually progressed exceptionally far in some domains and not at all in others. This lopsided understanding of the world can require special handling, and encouragement from teachers who are trained to use strengths to build weaknesses. And these teachers? They're in general education classrooms, practicing differentiation. They're just plain old teachers who aren't bad at their job, using frameworks such as the Universal Design for Learning help to plan curricula that are equally accessible and engaging for students of all levels and abilities.
Because here's the thing: if you sell a child the idea that they're in possession got a thing called "intelligence" in abundance of the people around them, you're (potentially) setting them up for a lifetime of impatience, exceptionalism, and arrogance. You're risking entitlement and resentment in equal measure. You may inadvertently reinforce the idea that risk and failure are faults of personality – and that a students peccadillos, academic struggles, off-days, and emotional health are liabilities on the path of achieving greatness. Like many, many other aspects of academia, the designation of "giftedness" has its roots in the mire of structural inequality.
posted by mr. remy at 4:19 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I want to echo, amplify, and emend queenofbithynia's comments: gifted in school settings is a euphemism for tests well, which is usually a side effect of being smart (or just a side effect of being very compliant and attentive to instructions and coming from a middle-class background.)
This is mostly true. But, see, "smart" (what's called "smart" in schools) is a confluence of privileges including English-language fluency, cultural savvy, social acumen, political ability, whiteness, family connection, tractability, "maturity," visual-spatial processing, quantitative reasoning, knowledge, fluid reasoning, attentional regulation, working memory, the cluster of executive function that's so hip in 2019, and physiological development. The idea of a g-factor intelligence (traditional "IQ") is – at best – a hyper-simplification and flattening of these concepts. At worst, psychometric intelligence (and its humanities-bound brother, "giftedness") is a measurement of worthiness. While both terms are used in short-hand in schools, they're increasingly out of step with the best understandings of child development.
Seriously, look no further than into the racial disparities in enrollment in G&T programs –– here or here or here.
In my experience, "gifted" programs (and the "gifted" designation in records) are elastic containers for extremely capable students who might need a little extra TLC in some specific area, but don't have any measurable disability, or whose disability cannot be addressed in another program. Placement in G&T classes can mean anything or nothing. Gifted children, rather than being globally off the charts, have usually progressed exceptionally far in some domains and not at all in others. This lopsided understanding of the world can require special handling, and encouragement from teachers who are trained to use strengths to build weaknesses. And these teachers? They're in general education classrooms, practicing differentiation. They're just plain old teachers who aren't bad at their job, using frameworks such as the Universal Design for Learning help to plan curricula that are equally accessible and engaging for students of all levels and abilities.
Because here's the thing: if you sell a child the idea that they're in possession got a thing called "intelligence" in abundance of the people around them, you're (potentially) setting them up for a lifetime of impatience, exceptionalism, and arrogance. You're risking entitlement and resentment in equal measure. You may inadvertently reinforce the idea that risk and failure are faults of personality – and that a students peccadillos, academic struggles, off-days, and emotional health are liabilities on the path of achieving greatness. Like many, many other aspects of academia, the designation of "giftedness" has its roots in the mire of structural inequality.
posted by mr. remy at 4:19 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
As a twenty-something who scored in the top 1% on math/verbal tests as a little kid and has since interacted with adults who did CTY, I strongly encourage you to send your kid to CTY or some kind of equivalent enrichment program.
The extent to which gifted-and-neurodiverse-and-not-isolated kids become well-adjusted adults with social skills compared to people with experiences like mine is really dramatic.
That said, I didn't get an ADHD diagnosis until my early twenties, and there wasn't much "borderline" about the ways my test scores were used to justify escalated abuse, so you're already excelling relative to my parents as far as "willingness to support your offspring" is concerned.
posted by bagel at 5:26 PM on January 29, 2019
The extent to which gifted-and-neurodiverse-and-not-isolated kids become well-adjusted adults with social skills compared to people with experiences like mine is really dramatic.
That said, I didn't get an ADHD diagnosis until my early twenties, and there wasn't much "borderline" about the ways my test scores were used to justify escalated abuse, so you're already excelling relative to my parents as far as "willingness to support your offspring" is concerned.
posted by bagel at 5:26 PM on January 29, 2019
Another woman with ADHD who was once a “gifted” girl. Being “gifted” among non-gifted kids meant none of the consequences of ADHD behaviour applied to me. Having untreated ADHD among gifted kids meant every failure was an act of wilful and wanton disobedience, well beneath the dignity of a true “smart” kid. This violated the self-concept of the adults who had invested in me. Public punishment was doled out accordingly.
I am white and was lower-middle (maybe working?) class. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to infer what my “non-gifted” public school peers looked like, and what my “gifted” magnet school classmates looked like, and the average household incomes on both sides. (mr. remy provides some good clues.)
Most kids with ADHD are highly creative problem-solvers, and they can come up with some truly brilliant life hacks. Sometimes those hacks produce remarkable test scores. Please make sure any ADHD is addressed before getting involved with giftedness culture.
posted by armeowda at 5:40 PM on January 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I am white and was lower-middle (maybe working?) class. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to infer what my “non-gifted” public school peers looked like, and what my “gifted” magnet school classmates looked like, and the average household incomes on both sides. (mr. remy provides some good clues.)
Most kids with ADHD are highly creative problem-solvers, and they can come up with some truly brilliant life hacks. Sometimes those hacks produce remarkable test scores. Please make sure any ADHD is addressed before getting involved with giftedness culture.
posted by armeowda at 5:40 PM on January 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
One aspect of my experience as a gifted child that hasn't been touched on fully is socioeconomic in nature. I was from a lower-middle class, single -parent household, living in subsidised housing. At one point we were on assistance. The gifted class, while populated with kids whose brains met well with mine, was also full of upper-middle class kids with two parents who had time to push for them to get the very best education they could outside of private school. Children of ambassadors, lawyers, doctors, government, physicists. For the first time, I actually felt lesser-than.
Birthday parties were hard. I can remember the pain of a birthday-girl discovering that I'd given her one of my own books- I didn't remember that I'd written in it! Or offering the cassette of an album they host had just received in CD format.
I couldn't go on certain excursions with my classmates. I couldn't relate to their world travels, ski trips, summer homes, overnight summer camps, mid-winter holidays. My lunches were thin and padded with unwanted items mooched off my friends and donations from teachers.
My parents didn't have time to help me with my homework, let alone understand the second language I was expected to do it in for french immersion. Others handed in perfectly edited, expertly formatted, glitzed up projects, while I fended for myself mostly. I'm sure you can sense my resentment. Not all these kids were smart. Some were merely hard workers (I could have stood to learn something from them), or had a lot of support from their parents. Some barely met the diagnostic criteria, but their parents pushed, because they KNEW Little Billy was special.
There were certainly benefits to being exposed to this kind of environment, receiving an enriched education, but overall I feel I could have excelled better in a class made up of kids more like myself. This is largely school-board and class dependent, but I urge you to take it into consideration. I will also vouch for how the label affected my sense of self, and how adults treated me, and what they expected of my "potential" (what a dreadful word, I still shudder).
posted by Violet Femme at 6:03 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Birthday parties were hard. I can remember the pain of a birthday-girl discovering that I'd given her one of my own books- I didn't remember that I'd written in it! Or offering the cassette of an album they host had just received in CD format.
I couldn't go on certain excursions with my classmates. I couldn't relate to their world travels, ski trips, summer homes, overnight summer camps, mid-winter holidays. My lunches were thin and padded with unwanted items mooched off my friends and donations from teachers.
My parents didn't have time to help me with my homework, let alone understand the second language I was expected to do it in for french immersion. Others handed in perfectly edited, expertly formatted, glitzed up projects, while I fended for myself mostly. I'm sure you can sense my resentment. Not all these kids were smart. Some were merely hard workers (I could have stood to learn something from them), or had a lot of support from their parents. Some barely met the diagnostic criteria, but their parents pushed, because they KNEW Little Billy was special.
There were certainly benefits to being exposed to this kind of environment, receiving an enriched education, but overall I feel I could have excelled better in a class made up of kids more like myself. This is largely school-board and class dependent, but I urge you to take it into consideration. I will also vouch for how the label affected my sense of self, and how adults treated me, and what they expected of my "potential" (what a dreadful word, I still shudder).
posted by Violet Femme at 6:03 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
As others have said less directly, all the gifts in the world in terms of language, spatial reasoning, or any of the other tests used to determine eligibility for GT programs are for naught if your daughter does in fact have symptomatic ADHD.
The coping mechanisms one develops in school are worse than useless in the real world. The structure along with advanced-for-age reasoning skills make it very easy to skate along as a seemingly-successful A/B student without ever learning time management, self motivation, or any of the other skills that are necessary to succeed at long term goals.
Sadly, intellectual understanding about how to get things done gleaned from years of advice from teachers and parents substitutes for practicing those habits about as well as reading the entire algebra textbook the first week substitutes for doing the homework on a regular basis.
(Depending on severity, medication may well not even be required, but the possibility of your girl having it isn't something you should dismiss. Untreated ADHD is very likely to cause anxiety and depression among other things.)
posted by wierdo at 10:25 PM on January 29, 2019
The coping mechanisms one develops in school are worse than useless in the real world. The structure along with advanced-for-age reasoning skills make it very easy to skate along as a seemingly-successful A/B student without ever learning time management, self motivation, or any of the other skills that are necessary to succeed at long term goals.
Sadly, intellectual understanding about how to get things done gleaned from years of advice from teachers and parents substitutes for practicing those habits about as well as reading the entire algebra textbook the first week substitutes for doing the homework on a regular basis.
(Depending on severity, medication may well not even be required, but the possibility of your girl having it isn't something you should dismiss. Untreated ADHD is very likely to cause anxiety and depression among other things.)
posted by wierdo at 10:25 PM on January 29, 2019
Bit overwhelmed by the responses here but sounds like you're doing a great job of combing for what's relevant to you.
Couple of things. One conception of ADHD I relate to is of having an interest-based nervous system - there's stuff on ADDitude about this (it often comes off a bit woo-woo but the intentions are good). Basically we're good at what we're interested in - and that means on a micro scale to a macro scale, like I'm interested in sounds and I'm also interested in thinking about big ideas as interconnected - and bad at what we're not (like for me, arbitrary schoolwork, tidying, cleaning). This has two main implications for me. One, encourage your kid's interests, definitely. Two though, I learnt to deliberately apply interest and curiosity to things to motivate myself. I literally just can't do things I'm not somehow interested in so I have a well-developed faculty of "what can I find that's interesting here". It does sometimes misfire - I'm a mature student at university and the system is so prescriptive and misguided that I'm more interested in all the details of how it's wrong than in working to meet its demands.
Sorry! I meant - interests. Key.
Second. The edu testing gives you a handy indicator of specific areas kid finds easy or motivating or interesting and specific areas she doesn't (if she has any lower-scoring areas). These show strengths - a strength is something it's really good to pinpoint and use when you're tackling all sorts of things, especially when the thing you're tackling is something you struggle with. Areas you're not strong in in an IQ test way or a low grades way show that, if you've got the resources to do so, you can anticipate a challenge and use your strengths and seek help/support and learn to tackle something that's hard for you.
Sorry that ADHD perspective is very ADHD. Hope I've managed to get something across. I'm basically learning how to do things myself just now and it's so fantastic that you are helping your kid. I wish I had had a chance of learning to do this stuff when I was younger. It's super cool that you guys can. Best wishes!
posted by lokta at 2:55 AM on January 30, 2019
Couple of things. One conception of ADHD I relate to is of having an interest-based nervous system - there's stuff on ADDitude about this (it often comes off a bit woo-woo but the intentions are good). Basically we're good at what we're interested in - and that means on a micro scale to a macro scale, like I'm interested in sounds and I'm also interested in thinking about big ideas as interconnected - and bad at what we're not (like for me, arbitrary schoolwork, tidying, cleaning). This has two main implications for me. One, encourage your kid's interests, definitely. Two though, I learnt to deliberately apply interest and curiosity to things to motivate myself. I literally just can't do things I'm not somehow interested in so I have a well-developed faculty of "what can I find that's interesting here". It does sometimes misfire - I'm a mature student at university and the system is so prescriptive and misguided that I'm more interested in all the details of how it's wrong than in working to meet its demands.
Sorry! I meant - interests. Key.
Second. The edu testing gives you a handy indicator of specific areas kid finds easy or motivating or interesting and specific areas she doesn't (if she has any lower-scoring areas). These show strengths - a strength is something it's really good to pinpoint and use when you're tackling all sorts of things, especially when the thing you're tackling is something you struggle with. Areas you're not strong in in an IQ test way or a low grades way show that, if you've got the resources to do so, you can anticipate a challenge and use your strengths and seek help/support and learn to tackle something that's hard for you.
Sorry that ADHD perspective is very ADHD. Hope I've managed to get something across. I'm basically learning how to do things myself just now and it's so fantastic that you are helping your kid. I wish I had had a chance of learning to do this stuff when I was younger. It's super cool that you guys can. Best wishes!
posted by lokta at 2:55 AM on January 30, 2019
I was labeled "gifted" as a kid, and having that be a big part of my identity growing up was beneficial in some ways and hurtful in others. To me, a "gift" implied a static thing that a person is born with (and which may have limitations), rather than something that can be developed through practice and work. It kind of messed me up for a long time.
I would encourage you to instill in your daughter a growth mindset, which is a belief that effort and training can change one's qualities or traits. Carol Dweck has done some fascinating research and writing on the topic.
posted by beandip at 9:19 AM on January 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
I would encourage you to instill in your daughter a growth mindset, which is a belief that effort and training can change one's qualities or traits. Carol Dweck has done some fascinating research and writing on the topic.
posted by beandip at 9:19 AM on January 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm not an expert, but I spend a lot of time with kids in a G/T magnet program - including twice exceptional kids. Giftedness does, in fact, mean really smart. It does not necessarily mean good at tests or schoolwork or more successful in life. It means your child may qualify for services from your school district, which may or may not be a good fit for your child. Learning styles, types of giftedness, and personalities vary so much that there's no way strangers on the internet could help you determine what your child needs. While there are plenty of books, websites, and other resources out there, most of what you'll find applies to some gifted kids, but not necessarily your gifted kid.
I suggest googling gifted education laws in your area to determine what services your child is entitled to. Then talk to teachers, the GT coordinators for your school district, special ed staff (for the adhd - GT is sometimes considered special ed but it's handled separately), and your child. Come up with a plan and see how she does. You may find that she needs extra enrichment or accelerated learning, but she might do better without it. If she's frustrated or struggling, try something different. Ultimately, GT kids need the exact same things every other kid needs. They need to learn, to develop work skills, and enjoy themselves. They just sometimes need a different path to get them there.
posted by Dojie at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2019
I suggest googling gifted education laws in your area to determine what services your child is entitled to. Then talk to teachers, the GT coordinators for your school district, special ed staff (for the adhd - GT is sometimes considered special ed but it's handled separately), and your child. Come up with a plan and see how she does. You may find that she needs extra enrichment or accelerated learning, but she might do better without it. If she's frustrated or struggling, try something different. Ultimately, GT kids need the exact same things every other kid needs. They need to learn, to develop work skills, and enjoy themselves. They just sometimes need a different path to get them there.
posted by Dojie at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2019
I will add, that many GT programs are super focused on academic success. Avoid that - especially for a twice exceptional child. Make sure the plan you come up with is built with a whole child approach. Don't sacrifice physical activity or creativity or fun (recess is so important) to work on advanced mathematics or read at a 10th grade level or get college credit in 6th grade. That stuff helps the school get impressive stats and gives parents something to brag about - but it doesn't really help the kids.
posted by Dojie at 11:17 AM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Dojie at 11:17 AM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think the important bits are (1) it may mean your kid learns differently from his or her peers in a standard classroom (2) it probably means your kid could really benefit from intellectually similar peers. These will probably require a little extra work and care from you (eg checking out those local schools you mention). But if she has ADHD you were already putting in a little extra work and care anyway.
It does not mean she is going to be any easier to parent than she was last year! But you knew that :)
posted by eirias at 10:47 AM on February 6, 2019
It does not mean she is going to be any easier to parent than she was last year! But you knew that :)
posted by eirias at 10:47 AM on February 6, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
They tend to couch it in terms of 'high potential', 'extra sensitivities', 'multiple talents', but in practice it's typically the results of an IQ test that measures verbal, numerical, and spatial reasoning, administered by a psychologist.
This typically obliges the school board to accommodate your child's exceptionality through an Individual Education Plan. Depending on the school board, this can mean a separate class or school with kids who share her talents, rotary in a special class, enrichment activities, or some combination thereof.
posted by sid at 9:17 AM on January 29, 2019 [9 favorites]