Elevator pitch needed for why this interaction sucked.

January 12, 2019 10:31 AM

Help me succinctly explain to a male friend why this interaction was sexist and gross.

I bought a window from craigslist and communicated several times back and forth with the seller. My profile included my name which is a traditional female name so seller knows I am female. I brought a male friend along with me (because the window is heavy) but got out of the car first and introduced myself to the seller.

The seller kinda nodded and then walked past me to my male friend and extended his hand for a shake & and introduction. Seller then said "Come have a look" and then walked with my friend to the window in his trailer.

I said "Hey, I am buying this window buddy.". We all kinda chuckled but the seller continued to engage with male friend. I said something again the gave up.

Afterwards I said to male friend: "Can you see why that would be a frustrating experience for me? That shit happens to me All. The. Time.". He was all hemming & hawing and trying to dissect what happened in a way that minimized the sexism aspect. Then he concluded that the world is just a crazy place and there are people like that everywhere and I shouldn't get too worked up.

I did not continue the conversation but wished I could have said in a few sentences why this was such a shitty scene. I tend to get VERY passionate & intense and a preplanned script would help me a lot. Assume that my friend is kind and is worth investing in with a few conversations. What would be a succinct and clear way to explain this as well as some choice keywords I can suggest he google?

Thank you!

posted by i_mean_come_on_now to Human Relations (25 answers total)

Best answer: Because he wasn't treating you like a person. Only a fully grown adult human is capable of making a deal and this piece of shit took one look at you and one look at your friend and decided your friend was the person and you were not. Your friend has a limited world view that only lets him imagine that things he's personally experienced can be real. Since he has NEVER experienced not being treated like a person, he doesn't think it could happen. In effect he too is not treating you like a person, capable of having your own experiences and relating them to other people and having them be believed and honored.
posted by bleep at 10:35 AM on January 12, 2019 [88 favorites]

Mod note: One comment deleted; just to head off a likely source of problems here, OP is asking how to explain to the friend why the interaction sucked for her. She's not asking what she should do in the interaction itself, or whether people agree the interaction sucked.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:58 AM on January 12, 2019 [4 favorites]

Because things like buying windows are still seen as a "man's job" even though it's 20fucking19, and therefore isn't in your domain as a woman. I bet things would have been different if you were buying kids clothing.
posted by DTMFA at 11:00 AM on January 12, 2019 [2 favorites]

Elevator pitch:
"It was sexist because he acted like I was invisible even though I was the one who set up the meeting and I was the one who was paying. There is a long history of men treating women as invisible in, or incapable of, participating in financial transactions, and the way he acted was part of that history."
posted by nantucket at 11:20 AM on January 12, 2019 [46 favorites]

I'm hoping that you are planning to explain to your male friend that the moment he didn't also say "she's the one buying the window talk to her" he was just as complicit in why this was problematic.

Flip it. ask your friend to imagine (if he's that kind of guy) that he had arranged the purchase of a quilt, or a Kitchen-aide mixer (or anything that he might know something about that might not typically map into the male domain) from a woman ( and i hope my examples aren't grossly stereotypical for any purpose other than as examples) and that he had taken you along. now have him suppose that the seller had ignored him and had just engaged with you, even though he might have had specific questions or concerns relative to his desires about the item. wouldn't he feel de-humanized or belittled?
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2019 [57 favorites]

> Then he concluded that the world is just a crazy place and there are people like that everywhere and I shouldn't get too worked up.

"I get worked up *because* there are people like that everywhere."

JFC. How hard should it have been for him to say "I'm just here to help, talk to her" or "Oh, I'm not buying it, you should talk to her" or words to that effect?
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:31 AM on January 12, 2019 [35 favorites]

"The world isn't a 'crazy' place; it's a sexist place that treats women like we are invisible. That guy acted like I was invisible by ignoring me and only dealing with you, a man, even though I was the one who arranged the transaction. It makes me disappointed [or whatever adjective is accurate] when people like you perpetuate that dynamic by not correcting him in the moment, and then try to tell me I'm overreacting when I point it out."
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:41 AM on January 12, 2019 [59 favorites]

"Imagine you'd been in touch with a potential client at work, emailing back and forth, maybe even talking on the phone a couple of times. You've been trying to set up a meeting to work out a business deal, and you know you're going to need some help carrying your presentation materials, so you get a co-worker who knows nothing about your department to help you carry a box of papers.

But when you show up to the meeting, your potential client walks straight over to the co-worker and shakes their hand. You laugh and introduce yourself and they KEEP IGNORING YOU. Then, to add insult to injury, your co-worker blithely continues the interaction, passes out the papers you prepared, and goes all the way through the meeting without acknowledging the fact that you're getting the cold shoulder.

On the way out, you turn to them and ask what the hell they were doing, and they're like "What?"

Now imagine that this isn't the first time this has happened, and every time it happens, the co-workers involved act like it's just a 'weird misunderstanding' and you're being overly sensitive. A couple of times, your co-workers have gotten credit for the deals you set up, at your expense.

Would YOU feel okay with that kind of work dynamic? Now imagine you can't transfer to another department, you can't get a promotion, and you can't quit, because THAT'S JUST HOW LIFE IS AND IT SUCKS."
posted by wakannai at 11:57 AM on January 12, 2019 [68 favorites]

I wouldn’t even try an elevator pitch. I’d give him a real life example and next time he asks for anything, even if it’s a hot dog at a vendor, take over the interaction with the server, make any decisions about his toppings for him and make sure to explain to the server that men always like extra chili, ha ha! Make sure he pays the money but the change is given to you. Eat more than half of it but give him the rest. There! He’s just experienced what it’s like being a woman. Ask him that felt, like he had no personal automy at all, in fact he wasn’t even seen. Some people don’t understand until it happens to them.
posted by Jubey at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2019 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I think OHenryPacey has the right idea, but maybe it works even better if instead of asking him to imagine buying a "female" thing from a woman he just imagines buying whatever type of thing he would normally buy from whatever type of person is normally selling it. Ask him to imagine that he goes with a friend (male or female) to buy the thing and the seller engages with his friend and not with him. That would be weird and annoying, right? And, sure, he would probably just shrug it off and not get too worked up over it if it was a one-time thing but if it kept happening to him over and over again, but not to his friends, he would probably start to get really pissed off about it.
posted by Redstart at 12:08 PM on January 12, 2019 [10 favorites]

yeah I think when you paint the picture for him of how it would have felt to be in your shoes, don't make it "buying a [female] thing." Instead make your example something like "a computer" and that the person selling it wouldn't talk to them because they assumed, upon looking at him, that he wouldn't be smart enough to be the one using it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:15 PM on January 12, 2019 [9 favorites]

Poke him. Ask him if it annoyed him. Ask it if it would annoy him if you did it all the time. Ask him how he'd feel if random people poked him in the street, at the supermarket, at work during meetings with the boss.

Dealing with something that happens all the time is different than dealing with something that happens once in a blue moon. And the fact that it happens all the time says something (why would random people feel free to poke you?)

It's not just the seller discounting the fact that he needs to be selling to you, checking to see if you have questions, making you want to buy from him. It's also getting passed over at work because people are discounting you; finding opportunities offered, but not to you (not on purpose - you just aren't in people's minds, because they don't see you); speaking and not being heard or remembered.
posted by trig at 12:28 PM on January 12, 2019 [1 favorite]

Honestly these days I'm leaning more toward a "you should take my/their word for it because I/they know more about this than you" strategy for these kinds of things.
posted by lampoil at 12:32 PM on January 12, 2019 [2 favorites]

“Simply put, I owned that transaction, not you. The seller took my money but gave away my agency to you for free. Who wouldn’t be irritated by that?”
posted by kimberussell at 12:40 PM on January 12, 2019 [7 favorites]

Best answer: I would say:

Did you know that unmarried women couldn’t have a credit card in the US until the seventies*? It unbelievable that there are many women alive today who weren’t allowed to have credit cards as adults. But it’s attitudes like the one we saw today that allowed such things to persist for so long. Women are capable of making economic decisions and anyone who doesn’t think so is asking us to go backwards in our history.

*or whatever relevant stat you prefer
posted by CMcG at 2:41 PM on January 12, 2019 [3 favorites]

Best answer: "It sucks to be a real, grown adult human being, but if I'm standing next to a man, to be treated like a potted plant who doesn't really matter but also 'gets' to foot the bill."

Honestly your friend kinda did the same, so maybe add at the end, depending on how generous you are feeling, "and then for the man I'm standing next to to tell me I'm being hysterical since in actuality, I am simply a potted plant with a wallet."
posted by love2potato at 3:16 PM on January 12, 2019 [5 favorites]

Best answer: My son helped me shop for a used car. When the salesmen tried to engage him, after I introduced myself as the potential buyer, son stepped back a few steps and looked at me. Most of the salesmen got it, and the two that didn't we walked away from.

I was so proud of my son, and gratified that it happened. He's 34, and has two sisters. This is what your friend needs to understand. He had the opportunity to speak up and proactively redirect the encounter, and he chose not to. It didn't need to be a come to Jesus speech, but he should have obviously and firmly deferred to you. He is a big part of the problem and needs to step up. I suggest letting him read the responses to your question. It would be educational on many levels.
posted by LaBellaStella at 3:33 PM on January 12, 2019 [22 favorites]

Best answer: This reminds me of the time I bought a fairly expensive sofa, took along my cousin who is a sales man, because I didn’t want to get into a situation where I‘d get bullied by the sales person in the shop. Turned out I’d have been ok without my cousin, the sales guy was very pleasant to deal with, got that I was buying the sofa etc. Bought the sofa, sales guy then calls over a middle aged lady to do paperwork for 0% financing and this lady sits down next to my cousin, at the other end of the corner unit, and starts to talk to him about the financing. She was really put out when he told her she needed to talk to me, started to rant about women’s lib and how it’s so difficult to know these days..this was ten years ago and my eyes are still rolling.

My point is, that you can’t control what the random craigslist person does or doesn’t do. But you can have expectations of friends. And if this is a good friend, instead of an acquaintance, I‘d want to understand why he felt it was appropriate to take over the transaction in that moment, instead of telling the seller that you are the buyer and step back physically to force this person to interact with you. And I’d just ask them. Some, perhaps slightly more delicately phrased version of ‚Why did you feel it was appropriate for you to take this transaction in hand? You were literally there to do the heavy lifting, nothing else, and I am grateful you were willing to help but please don’t do that again.‘

In my case my cousin and I had discussed a strategy for the purchase and he had coached me to do it myself, he was to intervene if the guy became too pushy, but he didn’t have to involve himself. In your case, I’d be a lot more upset about my friend‘s failure to redirect the seller and play along with this bs than about the seller‘s behaviour. And whilst this is really sad, your friend redirecting the seller would have been much more powerful messaging than anything you could have said at that point. My goal talking to my friend would be to explain, that this is a widespread problem, that he can be part of the problem or part of the solution and that in this case, although probably well intentioned, he was part of the problem.
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:48 PM on January 12, 2019 [6 favorites]

Best answer: It looks like you've got all the words for what you need already, but I thought I'd just throw in the mix that there's a useful term for one particular part of what you're referring to here. It's 'epistemic injustice', it comes from Miranda Fricker's book of the same name. Fricker's arguing for something new. She points out: there's lots of different ways of harming someone, e.g. 'objectification' – treating them like an object – is one way of harming a person; harassment is a different way of harming someone.

Some philosophers might (in the past) have tried to find what it is that all the different ways of harming someone will have in common, but Fricker points out that we're in a better position if we can spell out quite what's distinctively different about each type of harm. And then she makes a case for thinking that there's a distinctive way of harming someone which is to do with knowledge and (relatedly) agency. She uses examples of cases just like yours, where, say, a guy at a garage assumes that woman won't understand (or want to know) what's wrong with her car. Another example: at a cocktail reception for new faculty at a university, someone asks a female professor "And whose wife are you?" – on the assumption that she's just there to accompany a male academic. Fricker argues that these aren't merely cases of someone being impolite (it's not simply a matter of etiquette, or breaking a social norm); she argues that they constitute instances of injustice – and it's not simply sexism. Treating someone as though they have less knowledge and/or less agency, acting on the basis that women are less informed, less interested, less qualified than men, serves to take away that person's standing and their agency, and so constitutes a harm. And because it's an undeserved harm, it's an injustice.

There's a nice video of a talk by Fricker here.
posted by Joeruckus at 4:42 PM on January 12, 2019 [18 favorites]

“It happens all the time” is not the same as “it didn’t happen.”
posted by stoneandstar at 6:27 PM on January 12, 2019 [4 favorites]

Best answer: It's endlessly frustrating and I find the lack of willingness to even understand on the part of your friend (and guys I know too - not friends!) just makes it that much worse. I also find I am less willing to have friends around me who cannot meet me halfway or who do not even have the intelligence or awareness to notice that this is a thing as I don't have the patience, thick skinnedness or kindness to be an educator...

As you do have that patience I can only echo what others have said above and advise you to tell him to put himself in your shoes. You do not even need to talk about how this is something women have to go through etc. because this situation is bad enough on its own. I would just let him know "in future when you see this sort of thing happening, as my friend, I would really appreciate if you would acknowledge it and to affirm what I said by telling the seller to refer to me".

Future advice:

1. I would not be chuckling about something like this with the other 2 people. The seller probably thought you were not bothered. Some people don't hear the content of your words only the manner in which you deliver them. He's also not your buddy. He's there to work for your money.

2. If I was ignored I would have taken a very confrontational approach (my anger at the 2 asshats would help me feel confident at this point). I would have completely interrupted them and said "Just to stop you there. I was not joking earlier on. I am the one paying so you should be talking to me directly. Not him. He knows nothing about windows. These windows are not for him. Talk to me only".

Firm eye contact.

If my friend at this point even dared to apologise to the seller on my behalf I would also tear my friend a new asshole and leave. If he referred said anything about my behaviour rather than the behaviour of the seller then that would be the end of our friendship. Seriously. I have no tolerance for this shit from friends and it would mean me and my friend have nothing in common. I cannot be friends with a vegetable. I can grab any stranger off a park bench if I need a companion for a movie.

3. If after that point he had the audacity to continue then I would have personally walked out and left both of them to it to waste their time having a lovely conversation ending in a situation without a transaction. If that doesn't make the seller facepalm I don't know what would. There is no good reason to keep balls-for-brains in business.

Take charge.

Man. Why does the simple act of a woman buying a window in 2019 have to be like entering a war zone?!
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 4:22 AM on January 13, 2019 [9 favorites]

When we bought my car, during the time we were sitting in the sales guy's office doing the negotiating part, the sales guy asked my husband all the questions. The Mr replied to his questions, several times, with "I don't know. It's her car." The sales guy chuckled and said something to the effect of "Oh but we know how these things go."

At the time, we were both tired and punchy and didn't want to have a confrontation, so it ended up that for every single question the sales guy would ask the Mr, the Mr would ostentatiously turn to me, I would look at the Mr and say Yes or No, depending, then the Mr would turn back to the sales guy and repeat exactly what I said. For the entire transaction.

No idea what was going through the sales guy's head. Was it that unthinkable that I would have the primary opinions on the car I was going to be driving? Or was he badly attempting to save some sort of face for the Mr because Guys Do Cars and therefore Guys Must Have Opinions On Cars? (The Mr really doesn't do cars and doesn't care to do cars and has zero identity or ego tied up in knowing about cars, most especially cars that he is not going to be driving.)
posted by telophase at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2019

This kind of thing makes me crazy, because it's not that he didn't get it. That you would be frustrated by being ignored and belittled because of your gender is not a hard concept to grasp.

The problem is that it's convenient for him not to believe you.

Could an analogy help?

Then he concluded that the world is just a crazy place and there are people like that everywhere and I shouldn't get too worked up.

This is how privileged people dismiss injustice. The 'all lives matter' crowd make out that racism is not systemic and is instead down to a few bad apples. They will also tell people of colour that the racism they've experienced was imagined, or down to the perpetrator being rude or unpleasant in general. Ignoring the lived experience of people of colour is inherently racist. It implies they are either lying about their experience, or too stupid to know the difference between racism and general unpleasantness.

Dismissing people's experience of racism enables privileged people to ignore systemic racism, so they can carrying on benefitting from it and avoid the hard work of changing the system or examining themselves for racism or implicit bias.
posted by Dwardles at 5:30 AM on January 16, 2019

"Friend, I need you to look at me and listen. Don't interrupt, just listen. I explained to you a specific interaction and my interpretation of those events. You then proceeded to argue with me. Sure, it's possible that the seller was raised in an environment where men weren't supposed to talk to women, or maybe literally every other woman in the world in his experience has demurred to a man, or countless other reasons where this actually isn't sexist. But this is my experience. This interaction keeps repeating itself and has throughout my life. I don't need you to understand, I need you to believe me. I don't need you to play devil's advocate and tell me how I need to change to better accommodate some complete asshole stranger, I need you to stand up the next time this happens and say to the guy, 'That's not right'. Can you do that? Can you speak up even though it makes you uncomfortable?"
posted by disconnect at 6:32 AM on January 16, 2019

I think the answers above are overly generous. If I was treated like this, I'd shut down a) the interaction with the seller ("Yeah, this guy is an asshole and I don't want his window enough to be treated like this, I'm leaving.") and b) the friendship. If your friend brightens up enough to ask what's going on, then you could maybe give him one of the rational responses given above, and see how he reacts. My bet is though, he won't. Which means why do you want to do the emotional labor you are already doing here for him? That isn't something friends should have to do, ever.
posted by allkindsoftime at 11:47 AM on January 18, 2019 [3 favorites]