Does it work to talk to friends about feeling blown off?
January 7, 2019 4:18 AM   Subscribe

Sometimes I feel blown off by people who on a lot of other measures appear to be my friend. I get that sometimes life happens etc. and I try to be accommodating but I guess I just don't understand that kind of inconsistency as I feel like I'm a pretty consistent person myself. Does it work to talk to people about this sort of thing? Is communication key or will it just make things awkward?

Current instance is a woman who I've been friends with for the past 2-3 years or so. She's probably my closest friend in the city where I live, one of the people I see most consistently partly by virtue of a shared one-on-one activity/sport that we do together. I would say she's very sociable, confident and extroverted while I'm more introverted (I think I am actually very introverted?) and anxious. I feel like there is a pattern in my relationships of me being attracted to stronger personalities and being more of the tag-along sidekick person if that makes sense.

Anyway, I also travel a lot for work but have looked this friend up to resume our shared activity whenever I'm back in town. She frequently suggests things to do together in the future when we are hanging out but I'd say we've kind of evolved into a pattern where I'm the one who generally makes the move to organize actually getting together. She has overall been dependable but tends to be a little late for things, while I'm very punctual and dependable. I think there was a period earlier on in the friendship where the tardiness caused a bit of under the radar tension with me but eventually I just kind of got used to it and we would joke about her always being a bit late and in generally she's actually not that terrible about it in the end.

Most recently I came back to town after the holidays and sent a FB message a couple days ago suggesting we get together for our regular shared activity. The last time I saw her was right before the holiday and we had a really nice night of hanging out and laughing together and talked about setting up a more regular time to do our shared activity when I got back. She responded right away to my message the other night and expressed interest in hanging out and we bantered a bit about some random stuff but then the conversation just kind of died off and she didn't respond to my efforts to actually organize hanging out.

So I'm left with option of waiting for her to eventually respond or follow up (I guess I have the fear that this won't happen?); nudging her to respond and organize something (which is what I've typically done and I'm certain would result in us hanging out); or shooting her a message and letting her know I felt blown off.

Do you think there is any point to pursuing the last option? I just feel confused because I think it's an overall dynamic in our relationship that I feel like we have a good time (for the most part - I suppose there have been days here and there where I wasn't feeling "on" for whatever reason and it was harder to connect but I think that's normal for more anxious introverted people?) and she enthusiastically suggests things to do but then the actual follow through is lacking. I just would like to feel the friendship through actions and not just words I guess.

This friend is just one example but I guess it's an overall philosophical question of friendship that seems to apply to a lot of my relationships of whether to try to talk this sort of thing through or whether to just let things go and move on/try to find others to hang out with and figure the friendship will pick back up if it's meant to be. What have you found is better for your long-range sanity in this sort of case, if you have a similar perspective/personality/experience, and for making and cultivating deeper and solid friendships?

If useful for context, I do overall feel like I could have a more vibrant social life, but the introversion plus work travel and overall stress at work recently in particular has been getting the better of me. Actually this is a central conflict of my life at the moment. On the other hand, I do go through periods where I have the energy and time to go out and meet people, or feel like I am meeting up with a lot of friends - though this kind of ebbs and flows and I often find it challenging to establish and maintain numerous strong friendships and can end up reliant on just a few people.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (23 answers total) 16 users marked this as a favorite
It depends. My spouse and I brought it up with a mutual friend when we saw a pattern of blowing off / one side doing all the work. I was on Team Give Up and Go, but spouse feels strongly about talking things out.

We got heartfelt proclamations that we really mattered and they'd love to see us more aaaaaand.... the exact same pattern continued after that. I don't doubt that the words were meant sincerely, but there was no change in behavior. We eventually dropped our end of the rope.

OTOH depending on the friend's personality, life situation, ????, maybe it will change things, or be a huge fight, or who knows what.

Ultimately I feel like I can only look at what I'm okay with, where my boundaries are, what works for me; and then try not to be an asshole in carrying that out. And I'm an intensely unlikeable person; I could count the people I've considered close friends throughout my life on one hand. (One right now. Married to them.)

Being isolated sucks, but putting up with dynamics that don't work for you isn't healthy in the long run either.
posted by cage and aquarium at 4:47 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]

Do you think there is any point to pursuing the last option?

IME, and IMO, no. This is the type of thing you can bring up with someone you have shared responsibility with (including romantic relationships). IME it will be pointless or even self-defeating in any other circumstance. Some people are flaky, friendship dynamics are often tilted one way or another, and sometimes you're going to be the person always doing the reminding, regardless of how much someone wants to hang out with you. Keep meeting people and you'll probably find some who go too far the other way.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:51 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]

Yeah, I'd say this is a character thing. As a busy, extroverted person, I have a lot of great intentions to do things with people but a jam packed calendar, so planning things is often put off. "When I have a minute" is when I'll get back to you, but that time never comes. I do want to get together, but the bandwidth to make plans is not always there. So talking might not change it, even with the best of intentions on your friend's part. And if you can't live with the dynamic, then they might not be a good choice for a friend for you.

For example, I am always on time for things (barring actual crisis) and people who are chronically late drive me nuts. But that's the price of admission for some people; I have friends I love enough to deal with it and I've had potential friends who faded out because it just wasn't a good fit.

One thing that works pretty well for me is a recurring, scheduled thing. It sounds like that might not work with your schedule, but even if you have to cancel often, knowing that Wednesday night is "Us Night" means it goes in my calendar and doesn't get blocked out. Even if we have to cancel more than half the time, the spot isn't as likely to fill up on my calendar and I don't have to put the bandwidth into searching for a time.

So yeah, in short, this is likely the price of admission to this friendship. If you really can't stand it, you can drop the person. If you talk to them, you're likely to get reassuring (and sincere!) words, but the actions are not going to change. Would the reassurances be enough to help?
posted by gideonfrog at 5:19 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]

Another vote for she may well get distracted? Is there any reason why this has to be a multi stage process? When you were hanging out before Xmas and talked about getting together why didn’t you get out your phones and schedule the get together for this week? If that feels like too much lead time you could have made concrete suggestions when to meet in your message? She’d then say yes, Wednesday works or no, can we do Tuesday...

I’m reasonably reliable but I do run late as a rule and if something doesn’t make it into my diary it is unlikely to happen, despite my best intentions. I love the idea of a standing appointment to do your shared activity. If you have to go out of town you just give enough notice that you won’t be able to do a specific date.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:53 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]

As someone who is prone to feeling blown off/disregarded who has a fair number of busy, extroverted friends, I agree with the comments above that it may not be intended as any kind of slight & it might be the price of admission for this friendship. It's uncomfortable, & sometimes it might mean that you discover that you're not, in fact, a priority to someone (it's good information to have, if not fun to receive), but yeah, I try to keep all this stuff in mind too.

I also agree that it's easier to bring this up when you have an established ongoing close relationship with someone, & where it's been a friendship of lesser duration or intimacy, it might not go over well. But OTOH it might also serve as a nice way to establish boundaries/ways of being with each other as friends.

I agree that trying to set a standing date to do your shared activity sounds like a good idea -- you could maybe frame it as accountability (if it's related to any health or other goals you have) if that feels like it might be more persuasive?
posted by diffuse at 5:59 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]

I don't think telling a casual friend that she's hurt your feelings by not being diligent enough in organizing your next hangout, particularly at this time of year, is going to get you a good result. People get busy and distracted at the holidays. I'd be very put off if a casual friend accused me of bad behavior in the context you're describing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:36 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]

Maybe when you plan to do your shared activity, you can bring up a preference for setting a time right then, framing it in terms of how you like to plan. koahiatamadl's description "multi stage" describes a type of planning I dislike because it's a terrible time suck. Other people actually prefer it though. But if you say that just for your own planning you want to do it a different way, especially when it's a one on one thing, that is very reasonable.

I think if you make it more about the relationship right now, you are going to sound high maintenance.
posted by BibiRose at 6:41 AM on January 7

I hatehatehate organizing plans as a long drawn-out process - like "we should hang out!" and then an evening-long text conversation. I'd much rather specific concrete plans with a choice of A or B - sounds like you already have the activity covered, so your only decision is date and time. I think you should follow up with "any chance you're free on Tuesday or Wednesday for the 7 pm cycling class?" once and then the ball is in her court.
posted by valeries at 6:43 AM on January 7 [18 favorites]

Just to provide context, I am one of these people.*

I theoretically get, and 100% believe you, that when people don't make plans with you, you feel like they do not prioritize you, care about you, want to do things with you, etc. I get that this is part of the emotional labour of friendships, and I get that to be a really good friend, I need to put that effort in as well.

Emotionally and energetically, though, I am wired differently. When I come home at night and fall on my couch, I do think about my friends fondly, or when I see a recipe that reminds me of them or a book that they would like. However, the number of times it occurs to me to reach out and make new plans with them** or contact them approaches like, once a month if that. Since I have like 10 friends, I probably reach out about something brand new/unusual to do about once a year if I'm not really on my organizational game.

How often I call someone has nothing, zero, nada, zip, to do with how I feel about that person. Again, I theoretically get that for some people, this is not the case and I really do get from listening to other that for some people my not calling them makes them feel the reverse of how I would wish them to feel.

But it's soooo not on my emotional radar. In both directions. Even with social media and seeing my friends going out in various configurations without me, I almost never - like maybe once every three years? - even stop think whether they care about me based on how often they have reached out to me.**

I don't know why, although I have some ideas that comes both from my family of origin, some bullied experience in my past that makes me feel like any time I reach out to someone I am most likely creating a Terrible Obligation for them to have to deal with me, that I was bullied at a time that probably I should have been learning to get together with people, and just a generally independent streak like when I want to see a movie or an art show, my first impulse go see it. Not necessarily to gather the troops first. This is the part I have worked the hardest to change, to at least reach out at the point at which I'm about to book tickets.

Also I do juggle a lot of responsibilities including a job that gets crazy in the evenings from time to time, and so I've flaked enough that I feel like I have to be really careful about plans I make.

Anyways, so just to let you know there is this category of people out there. That doesn't mean that someone like me is a good match to be friends with you. In fact, I think probably not, and so my friend list is pretty culled to "people who understand this quirk of mine." But it is a quirk and not a referendum on someone's friendworthiness.

* I'm not defending it, just saying it is so uphill for me to change this.

** I have several groups of friends and we all have some degree of weekly/monthly/annual traditions to get together and so in a way the organizing mostly handles itself. I usually add new friends by adding a weekly/monthly/annual activity or inviting a new friend to the appropriate one.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on January 7 [26 favorites]

What warriorqueen writes is pretty much how it is with me and my friends. I can be and mostly am like this too.
I might do exactly what you describe, have a great fun evening and then genuinely be interested to meet you but not take the initative or follow through.
For me it is most often the lack of energy, i might appear extrovert but I quite often run out of steam. But it does not come from lack of interest in you, only from my own lack of emotional capacity to arrange my social life which is ironic as i organise others social life for a living.
I lost some friends through this.
Others remain as they can deal with this pattern. If you want to keep the friend and feel you can extend to be the more active part, message her. But equally important, don't worry if you can't.
posted by 15L06 at 7:39 AM on January 7

Caveat: I'm an organizer. I'm the one that drags people out, sets up plans, does all that labor. I don't mind it, and friends constantly say how the appreciate it, because otherwise we'd never all get together.

My approach: less talk, more chalk, really. (I thought mefi is where I picked this up)

That means, I say "Lets go do X on date Y and time Z" - specific, actionable, and demands a yes/no reply. Sometimes there's a back/forth on date (or arguing about restaurant, etc) but my opening salvo covers all the bases.

(now, if people flake continually, never reply, or can never come to anything despite repeated invites, then sometimes they get dropped, slow-fade, etc -- I'll only work so hard, but I don't take it personally. I'll miss their company, and if it's really important or a long enough relationship, I'll keep inviting them and enjoy it when they do show-up)
posted by k5.user at 8:10 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]

This reminds me of a new-ish friend that I've "been making" over the last year. I had noticed that the friend didn't seem to initiate much, although they always showed up when I initiated. I tested this dynamic on a low-stakes event, for my own sick curiosity, and this is how it went:

-A small group had talked about seeing a certain movie, about which Friend was the most enthusiastic.
-Friend subsequently mentioned seeing this movie at least three times.
-I went by the cinema one day and saw the movie had a single showing scheduled.
-I texted Friend to ask if they were free on the date to see the movie.
-Friend immediately replied that they were keen and available.
-I asked Friend to reach out to the pre-existing group of friends to let them know date/time. (This would consist of just hitting Reply-All to an existing email thread and typing one sentence.)
-Friend said yes, they would do that, absolutely, and they were excited.
-Friend did not do that.

I had to conclude that Friend is simply not inclined to take initiative, even when they have to do zero administrative work, even when they are supplied with every detail, and even when the event is of greatest interest to THEM.

I'm sure it's clear from how I'm describing this that I have NO idea what makes this person tick because this is so incompatible with my way of thinking. I can't explain why initiating plans is a struggle for Friend -- or even if it registers in their mind as a struggle -- or whether it's a total blind spot.

They do always say "thank-you for organizing" so it's possible they are aware on some level, but I decided that for my sanity, that I wouldn't spend my energy getting to the bottom of their reasons or their level of self-awareness: I would simply accept that they are not inclined to initiate plans.

It helped that Friend was good in other ways: they answer my emails promptly and with enthusiasm, they come up with fun ideas, they never forget to pay me back, they show up every time they say they will, and they are good company. If I have to force the plans across the finish line, which I am good at anyway, then so be it.


I should mention another friend, who used to text me saying "I miss you, let's hang out this weekend!" If I texted back with my availability they would reply, "Okay, what do you want to do?" Then, I'd have to come up with a bunch of ideas, most of which they'd reject, and we'd go back and forth endlessly.

I couldn't even say "Let's meet at X subway station on Saturday at 1:00 pm for lunch" because then they'd want me to decide "What restaurant?" (even though they had a million uncommon allergies) or they'd suddenly announce some other pre-existing plans that conflicted.

One time I counted 50 texts over the course of 3 days and we never even got together. It was just exhausting and I had to drop them.
posted by cranberrymonger at 9:01 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]

When friends are flaky enough that their non-response will actually bother me, I message them only to invite them to things I was going to do anyway. This is usually done via groupchat, a text I send out to like 10 people at once or Facebook event invite. Minimum stress! If you prefer one-on-one plans instead of group things... maybe text her when you have plans to meal prep for the week/do laundry/go on a Costco run and invite her to come hang out as you do that? If she flakes then it's not a huge problem since you were going to do those errands anyway.

The consequence of them not being initiators/on the ball enough to follow up is that they only get asked to things where their absence makes no difference. There could be a ton of reasons for their flakiness, but the only thing you can control is your own response to it. Is this just an annoying habit, or are you frustrated and feeling personally rejected? If it's more of the latter than the former, your problem might actually be that you need closer, more ride or die friends, the people who, when you text them that you're in town, respond with "omg come over" or share you their Google Calendars.

I've been the person wanting a closer friendship or to be more important of a person to my friend than vice versa. In my case I really wasn't a priority, but it wasn't really fair to demand to be a priority to someone who frankly had other things going on in their life, like depression and other friends. You can't argue someone into liking you more, so for my own mental health I had to deprioritize that person in my mind: we're still friends who talk once in a while, but I no longer consider them as important to me as they were before.
posted by storytam at 9:27 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]

Generally, I feel like the emotional labor I bring to the table is being interested, chatty, keeping conversations going, making people laugh, helping with practical connections / introducing people to each other, helping more anxious/introverted friends relax and feel comfortable with me, etc. This is easier for me than it is for other people, but it's still effort and it's something I do to show that I care.

Sometimes more introverted / anxious types do not see this as effort (which, I think, means I'm particularly good at it!) and get crabby about the stuff you seem crabby about here. That is their prerogative, but I see it as...sort they don't really care that I put a lot of effort into the time we spend together, but it's just not the same kind of effort/energy they bring to the table. That tends to leave me feeling unfairly criticized and unhappy.

It's one thing if someone is blatantly rude. It's another thing if they let you carry a bit more of one type of burden (scheduling) while they carry more of another type of burden (keeping conversations going, being enthusiastic, etc.)
posted by Rock 'em Sock 'em at 10:24 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]

With established friends, I try to make sure that I'm not getting in a cycle where I want to organize something, but I want the friend to prove that they're into it so I'm dropping hints and being enthusiastic but waiting for them to actually set up a time and date, and then they don't so I start feeling bad about myself and/or annoyed with them, and then I maybe go ahead and ask if they want to do THING on DATE but get resentful that I have to ask. I have just come to realize that some people are good at setting concrete plans and others are not, and I am someone who is good at that, so with friends who are not good with it, it's silly to beat my head against a wall waiting for them to magically download that skill from the ether. Those types of friends usually are really good at coming up with ideas of fun stuff to do, which I'm not always very good at, so I kind of mentally figure that's a decent division of event-planning labor.

With newer friends/acquaintances, it's harder, because it's harder to figure out what's "bad at making concrete plans" versus "not interested in hanging out." I still try to give people the benefit of the doubt, though, assuming they're acting like they're interested in spending time with me in other ways (responding to my emails, being engaged in conversations, etc.). But with people who have already shown that they like spending time with me, I try not to assume "bad at initiating concrete plans" means "bad at being a friend."
posted by lazuli at 10:58 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]

I guess I come at things from a different perspective than most people, because I don't think there's anything wrong with, and in fact think it's kind of great, when people can clearly articulate what they need from a relationship in a matter-of-fact way, without placing blame or judgment. So I don't see anything wrong with doing that in this case. You've known this person for 2-3 years, it's fine.
posted by Automocar at 10:59 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]

I'm very similar to you with the same friendship anxiety and thought processes... But it sounds to me like the ball is in your court. If you haven't set a date, time, & place to meet up, then you haven't actually made plans. And if you haven't made the plans then I doubt she added those plans to her calendar. If you had vaguely agreed on a time/date/place, then yes, she's blowing you off - either on purpose or on accident. But in this very specific type of scenario I think it's always easiest to contact again and propose the time/date/place and decide how to proceed based on her response. As you mentioned, you travel a lot for work and it's always a pain to ever try to schedule plans with someone who is sporadically not even in the same town. This means you will always need to be the one to initiate plans because you are the one who is physically available less often.

As for her suggesting plans but then never initiating - I sometimes suggest plans to see if the other party is interested. If they don't bring up those plans again, I sometimes (often) assume the other person was feigning excitement. If they bring up the activity again, then I set concrete plans. Have you tried trying to schedule a time to do those plans? She's obviously interested in doing those things because she brought them up herself.

I think for introverts with good time management and scheduling skills we can often get frustrated by how much effort it seems to take to make plans happen with other people because we don't understand how other people's brains work.
posted by Penguin48 at 11:03 AM on January 7

It depends on the strength of the friendship, it depends on how flexible you are with their response, and it depends on how you couch things.

I have had this conversation with a couple of close friends in the past; I think the key is that I didn't accuse them of blowing me off or insist on a single solution. Instead, I told them that "I've noticed that this is a pattern, and this is how that pattern makes me feel." The ball was entirely in their court as to how to handle that information.

And what was interesting was that how they each handled that information was wildly different, and in most cases, it still suited me fine:

* In one case, I got an apology, and an explanation that they had way less free time than I thought they had and way more difficulty getting out to do things. Which made me apologize because I had no idea. We brainstormed a solution that suited us both.
* In another case, I got an apology and a commitment to step up on their end more. Which they did.
* In still another case, I got an apology and another explanation for why they had less free time than I thought they did. Nothing really changed, but at least I was aware that it wasn't about me, and that still helped.

For more casual friends, I just gradually stopped inviting them to things since they never responded anyway, and...that was just that. If they want to look me up, they know where to find me.

I think the key is to have your conversation with them be an opening of the conversation rather than trying to prescribe a single solution. You want a solution that suits you both, and their situation may not be what you were expecting; but just knowing what's going on with them can be a reassurance that "oh, this isn't about me at all, it's about their job being sucky" or whatever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:41 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]

There's a reason why this comic exists...

With this friend, I'd nudge her again for a meetup. She may be one of those people who needs people to organize things otherwise it'll never happen with her. You can definitely try to talk to her about your feelings at some point, but have no expectations for anything to change and be pleasantly surprised if they do.
posted by foxjacket at 1:42 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]

I’ve been on both ends of this, and I’d recommend against talking to her explicitly. Depending on what her deal is, you are likely to either make her feel guilty and uncomfortable, or pressured and uncomfortable. Either way, feeling uncomfortable is unlikely to make her want to spend more time with you.

Instead, I’d suggest specific plans for things you are already inclined to do anyway, if only because getting turned down or flaked on for a specific movie at a specific time feels less personal than having an open-ended invitation turned down.

Also, finding a regularly scheduled activity with people you like to hang out with would be a good idea. I’ve found those kinds of things feel a lot less personal and fraught, and make me less anxious in dealing with the few flaky people.
posted by rpfields at 2:27 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]

After dropping more than one hint to a good friend of five years about my pattern of invitations and their pattern of declining/having a previous commitment but almost NEVER coming back with a "but how about Friday?" invitation of their own, I had The Talk. And now I don't have that friend of five years. This has happened several times, and I'm OK with it.

Data point: I'm an extrovert with tons of friends. I wish them well, but am fine not having them in my life. You're the only one who can decide which outcome will make you feel worse. Because honestly, they are unlikely to change.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 3:53 PM on January 9

Generally, I feel like the emotional labor I bring to the table is being interested, chatty, keeping conversations going, making people laugh, helping with practical connections / introducing people to each other, helping more anxious/introverted friends relax and feel comfortable with me, etc. This is easier for me than it is for other people, but it's still effort and it's something I do to show that I care.

Sometimes more introverted / anxious types do not see this as effort (which, I think, means I'm particularly good at it!) and get crabby about the stuff you seem crabby about here.

OMG, this really made me THINK, because I tend to agree with the OP, and am definitely crabby when I read the behaviors described by their friend. This is why I love Mefi!

I had never considered the equation from the Flaky but Extroverted friend side, which was definitely something to sink my teeth into.

However, the implication is that the Good Organizer But Introverted friend does absolutely nothing at events to "being interested, chatty, keeping conversations going, making people laugh, helping with practical connections" once the event is actually occurring. And I respectfully doubt that is so.

There is definitely Serious Emotional Labor performed by the person who keeps social events smoothly chatty and fun, but it seems to me that somtimes these two personalities shouldn't be friends.
posted by honey badger at 6:55 AM on January 12

I think you most likely will have to decide whether your friend's behavior is a deal-breaker for you or not. If not, focus on enjoying the times you do hang out, and let the flakiness go as much as possible. Having other friends who don't make you feel blown off might help.

Even if you have this conversation with her, and even if your friend is receptive to what you have to say, such flakiness is a personality trait, and changing that is a tall order. And it could go less well. Hearing "something you do routinely makes me feel blown off" would make a lot of people feel defensive, which will not bring out their good side.

I too have a friend who "enthusiastically suggests things to do but then the actual follow through is lacking". It makes me feel worse than if he didn't want to hang out in the first place, because I still believe him and anticipate the activity that then often doesn't happen.

He too is more extroverted than me, though I don't know if it's related to that. He has referred to himself as a people-pleaser in the past, albeit as something he's overcome. But I fear he doesn't like hanging out with me as much as I like hanging out with him, and that he's suggesting activities he doesn't in fact want to do in order to please me in that moment when he suggests them. I would really love to have a scanner I could wave over him to see what percentage of his activity suggestions is him feeling obligated/wanting to please vs him really wanting to hang out.

The latest one really bugged me: We were hiking, and when he found out I had taken off of work each Monday in December to use up my PTO, he spontanepously suggested we go on a hike each of those days. Guess how many hikes happened after that? None. He canceled one (after I asked about it) and then he just didn't bring it up again and nor did I. Ouch.

I've considered whether I want to bring up my hurt feelings, and my answer so far has been no. I don't see how that conversation would be other than awkward and result in anything other than him feeling accused and pressured, no matter how I phrased things. I feel like it would push him away further rather than fix the issue. And he isn't doing anything *wrong* per se, he's just doing things his way. So, my answer for myself has been to just try and appreciate him on his own terms. But honestly, it's wearing on me a bit at this point.
posted by nirblegee at 3:35 AM on January 13

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