If you dont mind sleeping with your boss to get a promotion, is it bad?
December 13, 2018 3:17 PM Subscribe
My husband says that if he was single and never met me, it would be okay to sleep with his boss to get a promotion. However he said he would not do it if he is married as that would be wrong.
The Harvey Weinstein case came up in my conversation with my husband. My husband then asked me, as sex doesn't mean that much and since you are not a virgin anymore, would you sleep with a boss to get a promotion (if i was single and not married). I said of course not because it is too easy, and that it is like corruption. People should get jobs with their own merits through interviews and assessments of ability to do the job and that is fairness. My husband then kept saying this is a hypothetical situation which means there are no other candidates for the job and the only person is you and it does not affect anybody else in terms of fairness and justice and whether I would do it?
My husband then goes on to say that if he was single and never met me, it would be okay to sleep with his boss to get a promotion. However he would not do it if he is married as that would be wrong.
After he said this I started to feel that he is an immoral person.
He mentioned that in the past he has worked in the government and has participated in small time corruption, e.g. given small money for allowing people to skip lines in immigration office. This type of corruption is normal in his country of Ukraine. I have not seen him act in any corrupt way living in our current country of Australia. He seems quite law abiding even more so than me at times. E.g. our apartment has a common car park and he wouldnt let me park our second car in the car park for too long as this is against some by-law.
He assured me that this is all a hypothetical talk, however I cannot get over thinking he may have a bad character deep down, even though his actions have all been good. E.g. he has never cheated and been overall very good. E.g. no gambling, no drugs, no alcohol, no cheating.
Should I be worried?
The Harvey Weinstein case came up in my conversation with my husband. My husband then asked me, as sex doesn't mean that much and since you are not a virgin anymore, would you sleep with a boss to get a promotion (if i was single and not married). I said of course not because it is too easy, and that it is like corruption. People should get jobs with their own merits through interviews and assessments of ability to do the job and that is fairness. My husband then kept saying this is a hypothetical situation which means there are no other candidates for the job and the only person is you and it does not affect anybody else in terms of fairness and justice and whether I would do it?
My husband then goes on to say that if he was single and never met me, it would be okay to sleep with his boss to get a promotion. However he would not do it if he is married as that would be wrong.
After he said this I started to feel that he is an immoral person.
He mentioned that in the past he has worked in the government and has participated in small time corruption, e.g. given small money for allowing people to skip lines in immigration office. This type of corruption is normal in his country of Ukraine. I have not seen him act in any corrupt way living in our current country of Australia. He seems quite law abiding even more so than me at times. E.g. our apartment has a common car park and he wouldnt let me park our second car in the car park for too long as this is against some by-law.
He assured me that this is all a hypothetical talk, however I cannot get over thinking he may have a bad character deep down, even though his actions have all been good. E.g. he has never cheated and been overall very good. E.g. no gambling, no drugs, no alcohol, no cheating.
Should I be worried?
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is a bit of a mess as posted; maybe revisit this as a more focused question on whatever your core concern is re: your husband instead of this swerve from a long run-up about a hypothetical question the post leads with. -- cortex
People will say all kinds of shit about situations that are remote from reality.
Some people talk a big game about what kind of parent they would be, and then actually have kids and discover they're a totally different kind of parent. (Which is sometimes for the best!) Some people brag about how they'd handle danger and then discover they don't handle it well at all, and other people say "Oh god I'd be terrible in a crisis" and then a crisis comes and they handle it flawlessly. People are bad at predicting what they'll do, and even when they do predict it right, sometimes it's just fun to spout bullshit.
If he behaves with integrity in the real world, and he doesn't make concrete threats about things he's going to do in the real world (like, he never says "I could totally sleep with my real-life boss on this upcoming business trip and you'd never know" or stuff like that), I would honestly just assume he's talking a bunch of bullshit because it's fun to say controversial things.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:32 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Some people talk a big game about what kind of parent they would be, and then actually have kids and discover they're a totally different kind of parent. (Which is sometimes for the best!) Some people brag about how they'd handle danger and then discover they don't handle it well at all, and other people say "Oh god I'd be terrible in a crisis" and then a crisis comes and they handle it flawlessly. People are bad at predicting what they'll do, and even when they do predict it right, sometimes it's just fun to spout bullshit.
If he behaves with integrity in the real world, and he doesn't make concrete threats about things he's going to do in the real world (like, he never says "I could totally sleep with my real-life boss on this upcoming business trip and you'd never know" or stuff like that), I would honestly just assume he's talking a bunch of bullshit because it's fun to say controversial things.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:32 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Everyone -- I am not even generalizing here, other than to gloss over small children who have not yet developed a concept of ethics or laws -- has little bits and pieces of laws and conventions of ethical behaviour that they do not agree with or that they theoretically agree with but ignore out of personal convenience. Suggesting that they are inherently bad people as a result means that there has never been a good person since the dawn of time. Which, hey, lots of religions actually believe, but it's not a very fair assessment of your husband's character if he's generally a thoughtful, respectful, law-abiding person. In this case, he's not even *doing* the thing, he's just positing a hypothetical situation in which he thinks it would be fine.
Moreover, ethics aren't an absolute. There's all kinds of nuance and shading and free will and do no harm principles are valid ethical frameworks.
FWIW, I think your husband's argument generally boils down to "prostitution is okay as long as it is voluntary and no one gets hurt" -- ie, trading sexual favours for money is fine -- although I think he's failed to notice the somewhat fraudulent nature of the boss laundering his prostitution expenditures as a business expense. At the very least, that has tax implications, even if the boss is a sole proprietor. There are also some rape-culture implications of allowing bosses to perceive that sort of transaction as reasonable to conduct with employees. Those are just my ethical concerns having thought about this for a couple of minutes -- there could be others that I've missed.
So, at worst, I'd worry that his ethical thinking is a bit narrow.
Or that he's baiting you because he can tell this issue annoys you. I'd be way more worried about that, to be honest.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:38 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Moreover, ethics aren't an absolute. There's all kinds of nuance and shading and free will and do no harm principles are valid ethical frameworks.
FWIW, I think your husband's argument generally boils down to "prostitution is okay as long as it is voluntary and no one gets hurt" -- ie, trading sexual favours for money is fine -- although I think he's failed to notice the somewhat fraudulent nature of the boss laundering his prostitution expenditures as a business expense. At the very least, that has tax implications, even if the boss is a sole proprietor. There are also some rape-culture implications of allowing bosses to perceive that sort of transaction as reasonable to conduct with employees. Those are just my ethical concerns having thought about this for a couple of minutes -- there could be others that I've missed.
So, at worst, I'd worry that his ethical thinking is a bit narrow.
Or that he's baiting you because he can tell this issue annoys you. I'd be way more worried about that, to be honest.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:38 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
My husband then kept saying this is a hypothetical situation which means there are no other candidates for the job and the only person is you
So if there are no other candidates, why would you/he/anyone need to sleep with the boss?
My husband then asked me, as sex doesn't mean that much and since you are not a virgin anymore
OK, even more than the hypothetical thought experiment, this part really bothered me. What does a person's virginity have to do with their availability for sex? It falls juuuuust this side of the "damaged goods" characterization, and also is disturbingly close to the "justification" that sex workers can't be raped because they're sex workers!
I don't know if you need to be worried that your husband would cheat on you (it sounds like he's pretty solidly against sleeping with someone else if you're married) but I do think you need to be worried about deeper value systems here.
posted by basalganglia at 3:39 PM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
So if there are no other candidates, why would you/he/anyone need to sleep with the boss?
My husband then asked me, as sex doesn't mean that much and since you are not a virgin anymore
OK, even more than the hypothetical thought experiment, this part really bothered me. What does a person's virginity have to do with their availability for sex? It falls juuuuust this side of the "damaged goods" characterization, and also is disturbingly close to the "justification" that sex workers can't be raped because they're sex workers!
I don't know if you need to be worried that your husband would cheat on you (it sounds like he's pretty solidly against sleeping with someone else if you're married) but I do think you need to be worried about deeper value systems here.
posted by basalganglia at 3:39 PM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I am guessing you have not been married very long?
My husband - a deeply kind, honest, fair and thoughtful guy - used to sometimes spout foolish theoretical bullshit that had nothing to do with his actual behaviors, in the early days of our relationship. Over time, I learned to get less upset about it, he learned to do it less, and it's no longer a big issue. So my advice to you is to ignore this. It's the kind of thing freshmen argue about in the dorm. Don't worry about it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
My husband - a deeply kind, honest, fair and thoughtful guy - used to sometimes spout foolish theoretical bullshit that had nothing to do with his actual behaviors, in the early days of our relationship. Over time, I learned to get less upset about it, he learned to do it less, and it's no longer a big issue. So my advice to you is to ignore this. It's the kind of thing freshmen argue about in the dorm. Don't worry about it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Agree that you should focus on how he really acts.
For this hypothetical: I'd be distressed if even hypothetically he said as a boss he'd suggest to a potential employee that he would give preference to, or require, sex from them, but I would not be as upset if he hypothetically said as a potential employee he'd sleep with the boss to get the job. If you say you're OK with a boss sleeping with the potential employee, that would at best be oblivious to the power relations it illustrates. An employee who sleeps with someone to get the job is being unfair to other employees but is not violating the larger power structures because having to resort to sleeping with the boss in a hypothetical situation implies they aren't in a position of power to begin with. Yes perhaps it's unethical or unfair, but so are many other advantages that some applicants have over the others, and it's not the same level of exploitation that has been called out this year against the powerful men who have used their power against the less-powerless women they've victimized.
posted by nantucket at 3:45 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
For this hypothetical: I'd be distressed if even hypothetically he said as a boss he'd suggest to a potential employee that he would give preference to, or require, sex from them, but I would not be as upset if he hypothetically said as a potential employee he'd sleep with the boss to get the job. If you say you're OK with a boss sleeping with the potential employee, that would at best be oblivious to the power relations it illustrates. An employee who sleeps with someone to get the job is being unfair to other employees but is not violating the larger power structures because having to resort to sleeping with the boss in a hypothetical situation implies they aren't in a position of power to begin with. Yes perhaps it's unethical or unfair, but so are many other advantages that some applicants have over the others, and it's not the same level of exploitation that has been called out this year against the powerful men who have used their power against the less-powerless women they've victimized.
posted by nantucket at 3:45 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Purely hypothetical situations are perfectly hypothetical, and the further they are from ordinary experience, the less reliable guides to moral intuition they are. I wouldn't forget that he said this, but I wouldn't dwell on it either, if I were you.
posted by ckridge at 3:53 PM on December 13, 2018
posted by ckridge at 3:53 PM on December 13, 2018
Is it possible this is a little bit of a fetish of his, and he's trying to draw you into this scenario for his own *fantasies*?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:54 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:54 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
If no one would be harmed (which is what he explicitly stated would be the case in this made-up scenario), then there's no reason to consider sleeping with the boss an immoral act*. So his willingness to do it shouldn't make you worried that he might be an immoral person.
*Well, maybe there is and maybe there isn't. Would he be deceiving the boss - pretending to be attracted to her/him just to get the promotion? That could be immoral. If it's clear to everyone involved that this is a quid pro quo transaction, that's better. Do you think it's immoral to have sex with someone you don't actually care about? If so, then it sounds like you and your husband have different values. If you can pin down a reason why sleeping with the boss in this situation feels wrong to you, identify which moral value of yours would be violated by doing it, then you can talk to him some more and figure out whether he shares that value. If you can't pin down a reason, then you should probably just forget the whole thing and pay more attention to how he acts in real life.
posted by Redstart at 3:56 PM on December 13, 2018
*Well, maybe there is and maybe there isn't. Would he be deceiving the boss - pretending to be attracted to her/him just to get the promotion? That could be immoral. If it's clear to everyone involved that this is a quid pro quo transaction, that's better. Do you think it's immoral to have sex with someone you don't actually care about? If so, then it sounds like you and your husband have different values. If you can pin down a reason why sleeping with the boss in this situation feels wrong to you, identify which moral value of yours would be violated by doing it, then you can talk to him some more and figure out whether he shares that value. If you can't pin down a reason, then you should probably just forget the whole thing and pay more attention to how he acts in real life.
posted by Redstart at 3:56 PM on December 13, 2018
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Let me reframe your question another way, though-- why are you worried? How well do you know him? If you feel as though you don't really know him well or can't predict his behaviour, then perhaps you should be worried about *that* and make sure to spend some time getting to know each other so you can feel confident he represents your values.
posted by frumiousb at 3:30 PM on December 13, 2018