heavy weights in back of a vehicle in motion

December 7, 2018 12:03 PM

My partner has a habit of putting heavy stuff into our car in ways that I think are potentially very dangerous. How can I illustrate this and show why it's such a bad idea.

My partner doesn't seem to have an appreciation for the potentially deadly affects of heavy objects loose in the back of a vehicle during a collision or sudden panic stop. For example, I've seen them return from a long trip with a full glass gallon jug of water on the console between the passenger seats at their elbow for easy access. Or, after purchasing a drill press, they put it in the very back of our wagon's rear compartment.
Stuff like this can kill you very easily in a crash that otherwise you might walk away from.
There's this scene from Fearless starring Jeff Bridges and a toolbox that illustrates the disastrous potential harm. They've seen the movie, it doesn't seem to have altered their outlook on being proactive on this.
I don't think they have ever been in a collision or even a strong fender bender. How can I help them learn proper techniques for storing objects in a vehicle? We have a station wagon, so securing stuff is a bit more problematic than having stuff in a trunk.
It's as if they just don't have a place in their brain marked for avoiding harm about this and my admonitions do not seem to be helping much if at all.

posted by diode to Travel & Transportation (27 answers total)

This video of how load weight affects a vehicle is geared towards towing, but it illustrates neatly the why loads in the rear of a vehicle can cause exponential imbalance at speed.

Here's one of objects becoming dangerous projectiles during a crash. *note - I do not approve of the music choice in this video*
posted by ananci at 12:12 PM on December 7, 2018

With my partner and I it would be a conversation of “I know this doesn’t matter to you, but it means a lot to me. Can you do XYZ so I feel better?” rather than any arguments of why way ABC or XYZ is better
posted by raccoon409 at 12:12 PM on December 7, 2018 [29 favorites]

This is something that I have never even heard of or considered, and I suspect your worry about it is a minority view (though not necessarily an incorrect one). I think some of the resistance may come from the fact that it's a novel thought for your partner, nobody else has ever told them about the risk, and they've never heard of it causing problems before you brought up the concern.

If those things are true, it might be most productive to frame it as something that is important to you. "I know you think it's silly, but I care about you and would hate for anything to happen to you. It might be irrational, but it would save me a lot of anxiety if you could change this behavior. I'm sorry it bothers me so much. Thank you. I love you."

On preview: what raccoon409 said.
posted by papayaninja at 12:14 PM on December 7, 2018 [11 favorites]

It’s not an unfounded concern. It’s physics. Can you get one of those metal cargo barriers and at least get them to put the deadly projectiles in the way back?
posted by HotToddy at 12:28 PM on December 7, 2018 [7 favorites]

I realize it's dangerous to have loose heavy stuff in the back of a car, but I often do it (as do most people) because there's no easy alternative. If I bought a drill press, I would put it in the back of the car to bring it home, because what else would I do? What would your preferred alternative have been in that scenario? Do you have any kind of secured storage containers or cargo nets or barriers for the car? Or a rack or cargo box on top? If you don't want loose heavy objects in the car I think you're going to have to make sure your car is actually equipped with some method of securing objects.
posted by Redstart at 12:34 PM on December 7, 2018 [12 favorites]

I've really never heard of this being a risk. I'm not saying it's not a risk, but it doesn't seem to me like a common-sense, everybody-knows kind of thing -- it seems to me like a very odd thing to be concerned about. Furthermore:
- A heavily dramatized fictional movie scene would not convince me of a real life danger.
- If I bought a drill press and I had a station wagon, of course I would put it in the back of my station wagon to get it home -- what's the alternative, carrying home it in my arms?
- I have never, ever heard of someone being injured by their water bottle in a fender-bender. Doesn't mean it's never happened, but it does mean that I don't take the risk super-seriously.
- Also, I have absolutely no idea what the alternatives would be. Are you supposed to put a seatbelt on your water bottle? Tie down the drill press to the headrest of the seat? What exactly would you need to do to mitigate the risk you describe?

All of which is to say -- as someone who may be thinking a bit like your partner on this one, maybe I can help you out here. My main questions to you are:
1. What experiences have you had that have made this a real and scary concern for you? I would definitely take you seriously if you told me something like, "I had a friend in high school who was badly hurt in an accident involving an unsecured drill press in the back of a station wagon. I really care about you and it worries me when I see that you have big heavy unsecured items in your car. It would really put my mind at ease if you would [do specific mitigating action] to reduce this particular risk. I know this just might be my personal trauma talking here, but I'd appreciate it if you could help me out."
2. What is that specific risk-mitigating action that you're supposed to take? I literally can't even begin to imagine what would work to secure items in a station wagon -- do you know what would need to be done that wouldn't involve carrying a drill press home in your arms? How complicated is it and how reasonable is it to expect? Does it require special equipment, like tie-down cords or a cargo net, that you could get for your partner to make it easier?

The seriousness of #1 and the complexity of #2 would make a real difference in my response. If you were to say to me, "I watched a fictional movie and saw somebody fictionally die because of an unsecured toolbox, so could you please carry drill presses home in your arms from now on instead of driving them home in the station wagon?" -- in that case, I'd be willing to talk to you about it and try to reassure you, but I wouldn't necessarily want to take that action in response to that particular fear.
posted by ourobouros at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2018 [10 favorites]

So I'm just going to point out that your description of your partner and their point of view here is quite belittling and condescending; rather than approaching this as "my partner is making a different assessment of risks than I am," you're at "I'm right, they're wrong, they're missing part of their brain, help me prove to them just how deep their wrongness goes". If any of that attitude is coming through in your "admonitions," then, well, I wouldn't wonder that they aren't convincing your partner to change their minds.

I mean, yes, strictly speaking it would be safer to tie down every object in the vehicle, just in case; safer still would be to bubble-wrap your whole body before leaving the house, or just stay home. We all make judgements about what constitutes an acceptable risk every day; I'm not going to say your assessment is wrong but your partner's is maybe closer to the norm.

So stop admonishing. Ask nicely. Because you care and are afraid for them, not because they're wrong and must be corrected. And maybe choose your battles: a heavy drill press ought to be tied down, sure. A water bottle on a long road trip you could perhaps let them make their own choices about.
posted by ook at 12:40 PM on December 7, 2018 [14 favorites]

Stuff like this can kill you very easily in a crash that otherwise you might walk away from.

Sort of? I am on Team Secure Your Shit but I think this is the wrong way to go about this discussion. Because I think your partner's response might be similar to mine "Really? How can a glass jug literally kill me in a fender bender. This is just your anxiety talking" (note, I am an anxious person so i share your fears but I also have these conversations about risk management surrounding my anxious fears pretty often)

So I'd approach it like raccoon409 does. Say it's about your feelings, and not their safety. Maybe make it easier by buying some tie-downs for the back and a non-breakable water jug for the front.

It's as if they just don't have a place in their brain marked for avoiding harm

I know you think your perspective is 100% rational here, but I'd steer away from this "There is something wrong with my partner's brain" line of discussion. Different people have different tolerances for risk, and make different choices depending on how much they balance convenience versus likelihood of trouble. I have very little tolerance for risk. I put on my seat belt to turn my car around in the driveway. That works for me. That doesn't mean people who don't do this are WRONG it means they're not-me. You and your partner need to work out something that works for both of you. There is no ultimate safety.
posted by jessamyn at 12:41 PM on December 7, 2018 [9 favorites]

This is something that I have never even heard of or considered, and I suspect your worry about it is a minority view (though not necessarily an incorrect one).

This is the established view of a lot of people (not picking on this poster) and a lot of the 'well I've never heard of that issue so it can't be that big a deal' is pervasive and persuasive to people that don't want the hassle of dealing with it. But it is absolutely a major concern in an accident - unrestrained things (stuff, pets and people) become missiles in an accident and they can and do kill people.

Unfortunately, because it is a hassle to deal with, and always requires more effort than "Throw it in the back, it will be fine, I'm not going to have an accident anyway" it generally gets ignored. The suggestion of a sturdy pet cage between the rear seats and the luggage area is a good one - once fitted zero effort beyond 'put it all the way in the back' is required so massively increases the compliance potential.

However, you need to be realistic about what you consider dangerous: "For example, I've seen them return from a long trip with a full glass gallon jug of water on the console between the passenger seats at their elbow for easy access"
I think you're going a bit far with that kind of worry. Yes it would hurt, but it's unrealistic to stop and go to the back of the car for a drink every time. Also, it would likely burst in an accident and not be so *much* of an issue. So try and find a happy medium in your worry - drill press? Hell yes a concern. Gallon of water? Meh. Maybe suggest a litre bottle each instead but then leave it alone.
posted by Brockles at 12:45 PM on December 7, 2018 [11 favorites]

the responses here are wild. it IS a real thing to worry about because it IS a real danger, and while being ignorant of that valid extant danger because you don't understand basic physics is perfectly fine, it's no excuse to dismiss the OP's concerns.

that said, OP i do think that raccoon409's suggestion is probably the best way for you to approach this. you don't need to waste time trying to convince your partner who is right and who is wrong, you just need to get them to accept that their actions are causing and will continue to cause you stress about their (and your) road safety. say something like "i would feel the same if you refused to wear a seat belt" and hope that they try to alleviate your concerns, at the very least when you're in the car with them.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:50 PM on December 7, 2018 [12 favorites]

the responses here are wild. it IS a real thing to worry about because it IS a real danger
It's kind of blowing my head up, frankly.

I have never, ever heard of someone being injured by their water bottle in a fender-bender. Doesn't mean it's never happened, but it does mean that I don't take the risk super-seriously.

Ignorance is no excuse, though. Physics is Physics. Don't think of it being a water bottle, think of it being an 8lb piece of steel. If someone threw it at your head at 30mph, would it hurt? Hell yes it would. When the front of a car stops because it has hit something, everything not secured to the car is still doing the speed you were doing a second ago and WILL hit you in the back of the head. This is PRECISELY the reason seat belts are essential - to stop YOU hitting the steering wheel or dash or front occupants when having an accident. This is well established in accident precautions and why rear seat belts are mandatory in some countries. That this aspect of physics should suddenly not apply to anything else in the car is nonsensical. There have even been ad campaigns on the seriousness of it.

Restraining pets is a relatively well known thing - mainly to protect the pet, but also to protect the other occupants. But the logic prevails for anything of mass in a car. The better secured it is, the safer for all occupants. The heavier it is, the more risk involved in just 'throwing it in the back'.
posted by Brockles at 12:58 PM on December 7, 2018 [7 favorites]

Physics is Physics.

Correct, but you have to do the physics correctly. An object in motion stays in motion, but it's the same motion.

In general, objects do not gain altitude when they fly forward in the case of an impact/sudden stop. The reason cargo vans have the floor to ceiling grating to protect the driver is because things are routinely stacked up to head height and could brain the driver (having nearly had that happen to me in a cargo van without such protection).

after purchasing a drill press, they put it in the very back of our wagon's rear compartment.

Unless they're driving way above typical speed limits, it would slide forward and hit the divider between the back and the passenger area. It might break it but it's not going to kill your partner.

I've seen them return from a long trip with a full glass gallon jug of water on the console between the passenger seats at their elbow for easy access.

Anything lose that could fly forward and get in the way of operating the pedals does pose a real safety hazard and it takes less than an accident to cause that. Focus on changing this behavior rather that worrying about things in the back.
posted by Candleman at 1:05 PM on December 7, 2018 [3 favorites]

there was a Dateline (or similar) episode about this, I think somebody's kid got killed by some innocuous junk lying around the back seat? worth looking up, maybe.

what you can do is

a) communicate to your partner that this is important for you, regardless of the actuarial statistics about vehicle cabin projectile injuries

b) inspect and secure loose objects when you're riding in the car with them

c) accept that your partner may still leave water bottles and power tools in the back seat when you're not in the car bugging them about it. getting other people to adopt our personal risk tolerance levels as their own is a frustrating and near-impossible project. there is only so much you can do.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:05 PM on December 7, 2018 [1 favorite]

A colleague of mine drove home from a late-night concert with his harpsichord (basiaclly a box of wood, a keyboard and a bunch of strings) in his van. He fell asleep and drove into a ditch. The harpsichord was what killed him. Your concern is a real concern and nothing to kid about.
I'm using heavy-duty ratchet straps (two, not one) to tie stuff down. Many modern station wagons have four eyes for this purpose at the back door at either side, and on either side below the back seats. Otherwise, with folded-down back seat, you have the attachments of the seats at the sides to work with. These are real sturdy, great for straps.
posted by Namlit at 1:07 PM on December 7, 2018 [6 favorites]

When I worked with construction crews the danger of lose heavy objects in vehicles was drilled into our heads, it’s something I still take into consideration when I’m packing a car. If you are looking for environmental controls can you install a net in the back of the hatchback for heavy items to be slipped under or behind? We did that with most of our trucks. For the back of my hatchback I have the largest possible Rubbermaid container wedged in and strapped down, lose heavy objects go in there.

If I can find any of the many many training videos I watched about this I’ll post them, but I think they were all company made and not online.
posted by lepus at 1:08 PM on December 7, 2018 [4 favorites]

> Unless they're driving way above typical speed limits, it would slide forward and hit the divider between the back and the passenger area. It might break it but it's not going to kill your partner.

Samuel P. Mandell, S.P, Kaufman, R., Mack, C.D. and Bulger, E.M. “Describing a Problem: Rear Seatback Failure and Unsecured Cargo.” Prehospital and Disaster Medicine 25, 2 (2010):

“Currently, there is little in the literature regarding the ability of rear seatbacks to act as a protective barrier from cargo in frontal crashes. However, it has been shown that unrestrained rear passengers pose a danger to front seat occupants. The association of rear seatback failures and intrusions with mortality and serious injury were examined. …

“Conclusion: Rear seatback failure/intrusion is associated with increased mortality and injury. Case reports suggest unrestrained cargo plays a significant role in these injuries.”

Schaper, D. and Zech, G., “Cargo Retention in Passenger Cars Under Accident Conditions,” SAE Technical Paper 860206, 1986:

“Cargo related injuries for passenger car occupants are one of the major contributors to total harm in traffic accidents.”

osha.gov:

“Tools or equipment should be secured while being transported to prevent unsafe movement of materials. During a crash or when making sudden maneuvers, loose objects can slide around or become airborne, injuring the driver and any passengers. Objects that could become a hazard should be secured or stored outside the passenger compartment.”

posted by mbrubeck at 1:13 PM on December 7, 2018 [2 favorites]

This is the established view of a lot of people (not picking on this poster) and a lot of the 'well I've never heard of that issue so it can't be that big a deal' is pervasive and persuasive to people that don't want the hassle of dealing with it. But it is absolutely a major concern in an accident - unrestrained things (stuff, pets and people) become missiles in an accident and they can and do kill people.

This. Yes. One of my college friends was a musician and was driving home from a gig. His bass amp (granted, larger and denser than a glass water jug) was in the back seat. He skidded off the road, hit a bollard, and the bass amp is what killed him, even though there was a seat back between him and the amp.

In the end, OP, it's going to be up to your partner to take these admonishments to heart. You can absolutely put your foot down if you're going to be a passenger and y'all need to lug something big home in the car, but if they're driving alone...all you can do is let them know that you care, you love them, and you don't want something tragic to happen when it could have been prevented.
posted by cooker girl at 1:18 PM on December 7, 2018 [3 favorites]

It's as if they just don't have a place in their brain marked for avoiding harm

I'm going to very genuinely suggest to you that this is about harm reduction, rather than harm avoidance. Harm Avoidance is an actual anxiety disorder!

Strategic Safety found that everything from luggage to soda pop cans that were not tied down were responsible for more than 13,000 injuries in accidents nationwide in just one year. [Source]

You are literally more likely to be injured putting up your tree and lights.

But at the same time, I'm surprised by the number of people saying this is silly. (Y'all don't think you put your kids in car seats just to protect the kids, do you? Thirty pound projectile children killed drivers every year before car seats! This is why we belt dogs in cars now!) (Oh my God you people probably never check your smoke detector and CO2 alarm batteries either. GO DO IT NOW.)

There is a happy medium between safety aware harm reduction and anxiety disorder harm avoidance. Put up the lights, but check the ladder and test the smoke alarm on the regular. Maybe gate the way back but accept that people use their cup holders?
posted by DarlingBri at 1:30 PM on December 7, 2018 [2 favorites]

Best answer: In general, objects do not gain altitude when they fly forward in the case of an impact/sudden stop.

Er.... Have you ever seen a car accident? Cars rarely stay flat and level during an accident, even ones with no hint of a rollover. They usually bounce around all other the place and (very often) the rear kicks up as the front is suddenly stopped (in a head on, for instance). This is precisely the action that flips up the stuff in the back of the car. Your argument makes no sense, so please do not try and minimise this based on some non-real perception of how cars crash.
posted by Brockles at 1:37 PM on December 7, 2018 [8 favorites]

It's generally possible to find tie-down points in the backs of most station wagons, though. I keep a set of ratchet straps in mine, mostly for strapping things to the roof rack. I have on occasion used them for internal cargo though, now that I think about it. It's not an unreasonable precaution, there's a genuine danger there and you're not required to be blasé about it. Most of the time though, most people (myself included) just don't worry about it. I think though that if it worried my love, I'd try to be more consistent about securing my cargo for her sake.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:42 PM on December 7, 2018

Best answer: Definitely buy them some of those ratcheting tie-downs, and use them when you're in the car and/or see them about to move some stuff in the car. You could also suggest/remind them to use the tie-downs, more as a "hey, use those things, they are useful and the right tool for the job, etc" rather than "hey, catastrophes could happen and i think you have a blind spot with regard to safety etc etc". Basically, make sure that these are stored in the car and available for use.

I recently got a new hatchback/wagon and some of the first things I bought were tie-downs, which I've left in the car and they've come in useful many, many times. That said, if I hadn't thought to buy them, I probably wouldn't be in any rush to get them, and might probably drive stuff around unsafely.
posted by destructive cactus at 1:45 PM on December 7, 2018 [2 favorites]

Best answer: I am a former firefighter/paramedic and have attended plenty of car accidents where unsecured objects in vehicles worsened the situation. Sometimes just a little, sometimes fatally. Your concerns are perfectly justified.

My husband and I don’t always share the same degree of concern about things and I find raccoon409’s approach usually works well for us.
posted by _Mona_ at 1:48 PM on December 7, 2018 [6 favorites]

Nobody is saying the stuff will *cause* an accident,...

I'm going to say that unsecured heavy objects could cause an accident. Such an object placed at one side of the trunk could roll or slide with considerable force to the other side during a turn. When it has to stop moving because it hits the other side of the car, it's going to impart whatever kinetic energy it's accumulated to the car. Sideways, in a turn. This is the exact mechanism that is often the cause of tractor-trailers tipping over on ramps: the load shifts, and when it stops moving, it pushes the trailer over. In a car, I could see a load hammering the rear of the car sideways, if traction was marginal.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:19 PM on December 7, 2018

Mod note: A few deleted. C'mon, folks, Ask Metafilter is not a place for debating among commenters and ignoring the actual request posted.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:42 AM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]

Just get one of those bungee cord nets and hook it up in the back of the car. Once it’s there it’s easier to use it than not. Bonus it keeps your grocery bags from sloshing around!
posted by bq at 8:38 AM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]

Mod note: A few comments deleted. People, AskMe is for helpful answers, not for telling off people you feel annoyed with. Deal with your feelings of annoyance in some other way.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:07 AM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Okay, seem to have gotten some people plugged in here. We're talking about a vehicle moving at high speed. Any vehicle that suddenly changes velocity in any direction is going to impart force to the objects inside. I wouldn't want to be sitting directly in front of a mini-drill press 5 feet behind me unsecured during a panic stop. Just saying, it seems like common sense to me. It's not anxiety avoidance, it's about doing the smart thing before you drive. People in construction and the trades know better than to have unsecured stuff sloshing about in a vehicle, it's how you get hurt.
If you have a glass gallon jug weighing 5-6 lbs suddenly slam forward during a panic stop, it's not going to help matters, au contraire.
I am pretty much following the advice given here to not be a nag or admonish, I'm simply pointing out the physics of the situation are not good to my partner.
We don't have tie-downs inside our Volvo wagon, but I'm going to look into leaving ratcheting straps inside the compartment secured to the seat frames so there's something handy to use. Having it be easy to do is 90% of any problem solution.
Thanks for the tips. It's a good thing to have different outlooks to consider.
posted by diode at 6:24 PM on December 8, 2018