Need to work out a workplace situation
November 18, 2018 2:48 AM   Subscribe

There is a recurring theme in some of my interactions at work that I am looking for ways to improve.

As context, I am in the early years of a second career. I am the most junior person on my team; I also have 20 years of experience in a closely related field.

For example, if my team lead heard me say the paragraph above ^^^ the immediate response could be, "please don't downplay your prior experience. You know we value that experience, right? I don't want you to ever think we don't value it." And I would say yes, thank you, I feel valued here.

Then the next day, my team lead might stop by my office and say, "about what you said yesterday, it's important to remember that you're still the most junior member of this team. Your prior experience isn't in this field and doesn't apply here." And I would say yes, I understand that I am in the right role for me; have I done anything that isn't appropriate to my role? Team lead: "no, only what you said yesterday implied that you deserve a more senior role." Me: I'm sorry I came across that way. I didn't meant to imply that. I am very happy with my role.

Then over the next couple of days, another team member comes to me and says out of the blue, "I hate that the company doesn't value you more based on your prior experience. You bring so much to the table. That should count for something." I would respond that this is the nature of a career change, this is the deal I signed up for, that I am valued here, and I am happy with my role.

And hours later, my supervisor might stop by and say, "team lead mentioned you are really hung up on your prior experience. It's important to understand you are in a junior role now, and it would help if you were more deferential." By this point, I'm sure some frustration is showing, although I use my calmest, most professional tone as I say, yes, I understand my role, and I am sorry for coming across as not deferential enough. Supervisor, "I can't believe someone with as much experience as you doesn't understand how to defer to a team lead." Me: "I'm sorry, I did not intend to disrespect team lead. Is there anything specific I need to change?" Supervisor: "the only specific thing is what you said the other day about being the most junior person despite 20 years experience. We've talked about how that's the nature of a career change. I thought you understood." Me: yes, I understand, and I am happy in my role.

This happens when I report back on how a project is going, or when I'm engaging in office small talk, or anything else. The pattern as I see it: I make a neutral, factual statement, and then team lead reacts to it in contradictory ways, telling me I need to work on being more X and being more not-X. The project is moving too fast, at the same time the project is moving too slow, is another example. The pattern includes team lead telling other people multiple distorted versions of what I said, as best I can tell from other people mentioning things out of the blue that jive with team lead's various interpretations.

Please assume that both team lead and I will be staying in our roles for the foreseeable future and need to work this out. I am looking for how I can improve; practical advice on changing what I can.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming to Work & Money (31 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
Sounds like there are huge power plays between your team lead, supervisor and other co-workers. I'd respond as you have been, with maybe a small tweak to limit the questions, so as not to engage with them more than absolutely required or encourage their wing-clipping proclivities. It's not really about you anyway, it's about them getting license to put you 'in your place'. Which again, isn't about you, but about them getting to do the puttin'.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:00 AM on November 18, 2018 [17 favorites]


Team lead sounds insecure in their dealings with you and as if they are trying to establish their own worth in the eyes of management at your expense. They may feel threatened by the fact someone with a successful first career has come into their field of experience and is bringing considerable life experience and confidence with them. Also, other team members seem to be valuing your experience. Jealously and insecurity on the part of team lead?

Solution - go out of your way to solicit their advice on aspects of the role that they are well versed in. People like to feel valued and that is one way of doing so. Be mindful of how you frame your comments so team lead can't distort an anecdote about how you did similar thing A in your previous life into "my vast experience in thing A means you're doing thing B wrong here, team lead". I want to emphasise that I don't think that's what you are doing but an insecure and jealous team lead could twist it that way.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 3:05 AM on November 18, 2018 [8 favorites]


Best answer: Then over the next couple of days, another team member comes to me and says out of the blue, "I hate that the company doesn't value you more based on your prior experience. You bring so much to the table. That should count for something." I would respond that this is the nature of a career change, this is the deal I signed up for, that I am valued here, and I am happy with my role.

I strongly suspect that the team lead is fishing for a compliment here.

TL: woah! You have so much experience.
You: oh, no. YOU are the expert. Speaking of which, I have some questions about X...

Each time they are talking about you, try to rehear it as them talking about their own insecurity. They aren’t looking for you to downplay your experience, they are looking to you to boost their confidence through compliments/votes of confidence.
posted by CMcG at 3:41 AM on November 18, 2018 [34 favorites]


I think CMcG has it, they are fishing for compliments.
In similar situations i find it works best to compliment the other person as they hope and expect you to.
posted by 15L06 at 3:49 AM on November 18, 2018


This all sounds weird.

I'd stop talking about your experience, current status, etc. If anyone else brings it up just say "I am happy with my role."

It's not your fault but there's some weirdness around this on your team that's causing people to over-interpret your statements whether on purpose or not.

However I would respond to some of the admonishments you are getting by saying "I said X. I don't see how it's being interpreted as Y. Can you help me understand."
posted by bunderful at 4:19 AM on November 18, 2018 [5 favorites]


However I would respond to some of the admonishments you are getting by saying "I said X. I don't see how it's being interpreted as Y. Can you help me understand."

If your team lead’s boss was interested in a balanced approach they’d already be approaching this differently. By engaging in this as a factual discussion you’re forcing them to work harder by addressing both your concerns and by addressing the team lead’s toxic games. That is the last thing they want to do. In doing what they are doing they are showing you they are not interested in doing the right thing. So whilst I can understand why forcing them to engage would feel better it won’t help anybody see you in a more postive light and in fact will help the lead’s boss agree with the team lead about how problematic your behaviour is.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:44 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


Best answer: The pattern as I see it: I make a neutral, factual statement, and then

I think a large part of the problem might be differing communication styles among you and your team. Some people never just make neutral statements. Even for a statement of fact like, "The chair is by the window", there is a subtext or an agenda behind why they made that statement. For people who have lived their lives with these layers of subtext and agenda, they will find it very hard to believe you do not have any subtext, and will dig until they can find or construct one.

So for example, with "I am in the early years of a second career. I am the most junior person on my team; I also have 20 years of experience in a closely related field" the thought process would be, "why did this person juxtapose these two statements? There must be some relationship between them they are trying to diplomatically point to. Is it that they think 20 years of experience in another field means they shouldn't be so junior? And why are they making this statement to me, right now, in this time and place?"

If you are the sort of person who truly says things without any subtext, you might need to get used to just not saying things unless you have a really strong reason to say them, and then formulating them in the most appropriate way possible for the point you are trying to make.

E.g. perhaps you are making small talk between meetings and you want to say, "This project is nearly wrapped up, huh?" Consider that someone playing the subtext/agenda game might say that if they want to insinuate that (a) the project is moving too quickly, or (b) that it's taken a very long time and everyone is sick of it, or (c) that the other person's role won't be necessary soon or (d).... Maybe you realise you don't want to make any of those points. So you just don't make that statement after all.
posted by lollusc at 5:09 AM on November 18, 2018 [32 favorites]


You haven't given the studio audience much to go on here. Your examples are framed as hypothetical rather than actual events, and omit what I think would be important details if you're looking for insight into real conflicts.

If the series of exchanges regarding your value and status actually happened, it would be useful to know *to whom* you were heard (or overheard?) telling about your professional situation.
posted by jon1270 at 5:57 AM on November 18, 2018 [6 favorites]


I'm sorry to say this situation sounds toxic. Your team lead sounds like they are very insecure and negatively competitive. Additionally, your supervisor doesn't seem able or willing to see any of that and deal with it accordingly. The good news is that it sounds like your coworkers do see it and are backing you up. I suggest documenting your interactions with the team lead while focusing on being excellent at your job. That documentation may help you if a situation comes up where you need to defend yourself. You may also want to ask your supervisor for SMART goals to help you deal with any contradictory and/or vague feedback.
posted by jazzbaby at 6:27 AM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]


Is there a reason you need to be talking about yourself and your experience/role so explicitly? I assume everyone knows about you at this point and I would try to stop giving them any more fodder. Focus on others, compliment the team lead, talk about the weather, etc. Make it clear the issue of your past versus present roles is not an issue by not talking about it at all anymore unless asked about it. If you are ever in a situation where you have to counter other people's opinions on what to do you can work on framing it in a way that won't be turned against you. I feel like you may be getting framed as difficult and unfortunately it's common in more experienced workers dealing with younger managers.

Comment from your supervisor re: "I can't believe" is quite rude and I'm sorry that happened.

I wouldn't necessarily ask your team lead questions to flatter them because they can turn around and say "wow can you believe FCRLL doesn't know X or Y? You would think someone with 20 years of experience would know that, even if they are a junior member". Is there a culture of complaining and gossip? It sounds a bit unprofessional all around. I would try to focus on being quietly competent with your work, and friendly but not sharing much the rest of the time, maybe it will spread to the rest of your team. If you have team members who like you, that's great, but even with them I wouldn't share any personal opinions about the office.
posted by lafemma at 7:05 AM on November 18, 2018 [3 favorites]


Best answer: My assumption would be that the Team Lead is saying negative things to your supervisor about you, either out of malice or insecurity (or both).

Can you work on repairing the relationship with the Team Lead? Or attempt to?

I like lollusc's point about subtext, and it reminds me of a framework I once learned from Transactional Analysis: We all always have three states of communication, Adult, Parent, and Child. Adult is objective exchange of information. Parent can be warm and nurturing or dictatorial and judgmental; the assumption is that you are telling the other person what to do. Child can be playful and creative or irresponsible; the assumption is that you are not being super-serious. It sounds like you're functioning in Adult mode, but I wonder if your Team Leader is hearing you as if you're in Parent mode? Which again is likely due to their own insecurity (especially if you are older than they are), but if you agree that that might be happening, it may help to turn down the "authority" on your own statements or behavior a bit, at least when you're interacting with Team Lead. (I think having to do this is likely a sign that your workplace is toxic, by the way, unless you're a particularly arrogant person, which you don't seem to be, but it may be a survival strategy to get along. Just be careful about not letting it sap your confidence overall.)
posted by lazuli at 7:19 AM on November 18, 2018 [8 favorites]


Best answer: these (awful) people sound like they need more Careful Handling than you've been giving them.

try not making statements, and instead asking for their opinion. (I know! Madness! But you're in some sort of looking-glass world, so it's worth a try.) Like, instead of saying "the project is going well," say "how do you feel like the project is going?" Particularly with your team lead, who I think you need to be very wary of, as it sounds like they're complaining about your attitude to your supervisor.

I don't know if these people are reacting to something in your tone; or if they're just acting out their own conflict with you as the battleground; or if they just are contrarian by nature. But try giving them less to react to, and see which way their emotional wind is blowing before making any statements.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


I think you need to go on a donut offensive. It’s time to change the narrative and the narrative is now donuts. Or pastries if you want to go posh. Monday morning, show up with a box of yummy pastries or a couple boxes of Krispy Kreme (regular and fancy). Especially if no one has done this lately! If it’s donuts just say, “I had a craving, so there’s donuts in the break room!” Make sure your team is the first to know. If it’s pastries, say, “I’ve been loving this place and wanted to try more than one and got a little carried away. Croissants and danishes in the break room!”

And then as others have said, start deflecting. And just don’t engage on any conversations which compel you to expand on your past or other work. Always refocus on today’s tasks and the things that are most interesting to you and your career path. As a career hopper, I’ve encountered some strange and hostile attitudes about my other experience. Just know that modern work environment is petty and fearful and not particularly creative. Keep your eye on the prize which isn’t the admiration of your coworkers but remuneration for work that you enjoy and excel at.

Do the donuts.
posted by amanda at 7:37 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


Couple of other random thoughts - cut it out with referring to any prior experience for now unless it is it very very directly related to the task at hand, and does not challenge the opinions or direction chosen of your manager/tech lead/etc. This is politics unfortunately.

The same advice could be said about any other work-related small talk because in this case, there is no such thing as a neutral factual statement unless it is literally "we are using technology X" or "I am currently working on Y". Stick to the weather or the local sports teams or anything non-controversial and not work related.

Basically if what you are saying is getting distorted in ways you cannot control, stop saying things until you can figure out how to stop the distortion. This can be done either by only talking to trusted (and be careful here) people in ways that cannot be overheard and will not be repeated, or understanding how certain people will tend to distort and do not give them the ammunition to do so. Even "towing the company line" can be blown out of context by people with an agenda.
posted by cgg at 8:02 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


What cgg said. Stop talking. They can't turn what you said against you if you say nothing at all.

They sound incredibly threatened by your "I used to have seniority and now I'm a peon" career change issues, apparently, and like they can't figure out how to deal with it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2018 [2 favorites]


Neither team lead nor supervisor values your prior experience, so stop referring to it ... for as long as it takes you to get another job. You should be in a job where prior experience is valued as long as you aren't obnoxious about it to the extent it makes you look overqualified, and you should not be in a job where someone tells you to be "more deferential."

("Deference" is not an aspect of a well-function subordinate professional's performance. What is going to be perceived as insufficient deference is either going to be a toxic level of disrespect in either direction, or the subordinate's poor judgment or insubordination, or the senior's complete misunderstanding of how you get value from subordinate juniors. In any event, sign(s) it aint going to work out.)
posted by MattD at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2018 [11 favorites]


I make a neutral, factual statement ... I am in the early years of a second career. I am the most junior person on my team; I also have 20 years of experience in a closely related field.

is factual -- but nowhere near neutral. If you think it was neutral, you need to step back and reconsider.

I can definitely see where this comes across as reminding everyone that you should be their boss. I can see why the team lead thought you were implying that you deserved a more advanced role, and I do not see it as "distorting" for her to have talked about that as a concern with supervisor. I do not see where reminding people who already know this fact, is relevant or helpful. I do not understand what forward motion you are trying to accomplish with it.

To me it sounds like each person whose reactions you have described, are trying to manage your opinions and expectations in different ways. They're all reacting to what you said and working in various ways to manage or help you. But what it comes back to is, this shouldn't even be a conversation. You shouldn't have brought your past experience (or your opinion about project speed) up in this context, and made it a Thing that everyone needs to manage. You need to re-think what is 'neutral', and stick within 50% of that.
posted by Dashy at 8:52 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


There are a bunch of weird power currents. The power dynamic/ hierarchy is not secure. If you give up the power you have because of your experience they will be confused and could turn on you. If you try to establish a power base they will freak out and could turn on you.

Make friends. Go to lunch with people, share news and mild jokes, learn about everyone's families, ask how their weekend in Vegas was, all that stuff. Go out of your way to befriend team lead and to make team lead look good.

Colleague "I hate that the company doesn't value you more based on your prior experience. You bring so much to the table. That should count for something." I hope my experience will be useful and I am learning so much from you and my other colleagues. This is not an issue for me and I do not want it to be an issue for others.

Team Lead "about what you said yesterday, it's important to remember that you're still the most junior member of this team. Your prior experience isn't in this field and doesn't apply here." I hope my experience will be useful and I am learning so much from you and my other colleagues. This is not an issue for me and I do not want it to be an issue for others. How do you think I might reassure others of this?

Supervisor, "team lead mentioned you are really hung up on your prior experience. It's important to understand you are in a junior role now, and it would help if you were more deferential."
"I can't believe someone with as much experience as you doesn't understand how to defer to a team lead."
"the only specific thing is what you said the other day about being the most junior person despite 20 years experience. We've talked about how that's the nature of a career change. I thought you understood."
I believe my experience will be useful and I am learning so much from you, my team lead, and my other colleagues. This is not an issue for me and I do not want it to be an issue for others. I'm comfortable in my role here, it's clear I am adding to the effort, but team lead seems uneasy. How do you think I might reassure my team lead that I respect them?

Many groups are averse to change and growth, despite saying otherwise. Because the team lead is insecure, they may not be able to accept you. But until that's clear, carry on.
posted by theora55 at 9:11 AM on November 18, 2018 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks, everyone. I have tried not mentioning my prior experience when introducing myself and giving my background (something we all have to do often, in pairs or groups), and that's when the flip side happens: team lead will tell me I need to mention it, because I should realize how relevant and valuable that experience is. It doesn't come up otherwise, unless I am specifically asked.

Team lead is of my parents' generation, so the Adult/Parent/Child rings true. I definitely see team lead vacillate between acting nurturing and acting punitive.

I wish I could give real examples, because it feels like no one gets what's going on, that I can't explain it properly, and that I'm going crazy. I have been checking in with real life friends and an EAP counselor regularly. But the complex and unusual way our work is organized, and the subtlety of the...subtext (thanks for that word) makes it take forever to explain one real incident, much less the patterns that have been going on for a while now and building on past incidents.

My tactic has mainly been to keep my head down and focus on my work. I have brought cookies, and team lead complained that a diet prevented enjoyment of the cookies. I have brought veggies and dip, and team lead rolled their eyes and said yeah I'm looking forward to THAT. I definitely feel like everything I do will be wrong in team lead's eyes.

I understand that sometimes the best thing to do is to leave a situation like this. But trust that I have solid reasons to stay for now.

I think the idea that I need to give more compliments and ask for advice more is right. Because oh my god I am having a hard time doing that, and isn't the best advice often the hardest to hear.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 9:20 AM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]


Do not look for rationality from this person. You are trapped in a cage with a wild animal; act accordingly. Throw everything you know about human interactions out the window, study this person like an alien being, and tailor your responses to what you observe.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:34 AM on November 18, 2018 [12 favorites]


Can you talk directly and privately to Team Lead about this stuff, using concrete examples of times when you've been giving contradictory messaging, and try to clear the air? That is what I would think of as the rational, adult way to handle this problem. I would make it a verbal conversation and I would leaven my statements with lots and lots of reassurance about how you appreciate their leadership and are happy with your role on the team.

Sometimes people are basically alright except for being weird about one or two things without even quite realizing it. Team Lead may not realize what they are doing to you and it may not be part of any kind of conscious strategy on their part—sometimes they try to lift you up because that's what they know a good leader should do, but then other times they put you down because they are insecure. The two don't have to be purposefully connected. If they're basically a good leader aside from this issue, you may be able to deal with it like grownups rather than playing stupid guessing games and trying to suck up.

It could backfire too though, in which case you'd likely end up in a three-way meeting with Team Lead and Supervisor, with Supervisor primed to criticize you in front of Team Lead. Be prepared to make your case and sue for peace, if that happens.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:57 AM on November 18, 2018


When something similar happened to me, it was a pretty toxic workplace, I was new, and I still believe there was nothing I could do to change it. My manager constantly misinterpreted things I said in really malicious ways and then would needle me about them in one-on-ones. For example, not only was I new to this job, I had just moved from out of state, my first major move after college, and on my break once I was talking to someone about having a tough time settling into the new city and finding hobbies and fun things to do. Later that day, my manager pulled me into a private meeting to harangue me about it, because she had been eavesdropping and somehow thought I was talking about how it was terrible to work there (it was, but I'm not stupid enough to talk about it in the office).

I was constantly berated for making small mistakes. By the time I quit my face was literally numb from the anxiety of trying to pull off every part of each project 100% flawlessly. I knew I had to get out of there when I was working on a new type of project with a coworker I'd never worked with before, and to avoid anything slipping through the cracks, I asked him in front of my manager if he had everything that he needed from me. My manager pulled me into another private meeting and laid into me for "not knowing" that everything was squared away and that I should never need to ask… despite being frequently told that I needed to ask for more help because of how inept I apparently was.

You can't win in situations like these because for whatever inscrutable reason, you've been marked, and they're going to get on you about basically anything and everything you do. That manager also openly shit-talked the person who had been in that position before me, and lots of other unprofessional shenanigans abounded in that office. The only solution was to leave.
posted by caitcadieux at 11:27 AM on November 18, 2018 [5 favorites]


The pattern as I see it: I make a neutral, factual statement, and then team lead reacts to it in contradictory ways,

that's at least some of the answer right there. people don't usually make neutral factual statements like that for no reason, and in context they are not going to figure you were just making conversation. so when you state a fact - or juxtapose two separate facts - everyone will look for the reason. if you don't immediately provide one, they will invent one. at its mildest, this means they will hear an implied "but" between your two statements, and take it to mean you're pointing out an irony or a contradiction or a tension that you want resolved.

like you might make the factual statements: "it's raining and I'm tired. here I am at work, right on time, like always." and other people will think there is a connection, such as [but I don't want to be, I wish I could go home] and pop by to tell you hey, just FYI you can't go home early today. even though you never asked to. or [I deserve recognition, or a prize] and come over to lecture you on how we're all tired and we came to work in the rain, what makes you so special.

and did you say any of those things? no. no ambiguity, you did not say them. but they will be inferred unless you say more in a way that precludes filling in what you didn't say.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:36 AM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]


Team lead will tell me I need to mention it, because I should realize how relevant and valuable that experience is

You are taking this at face value, as a direction, and missing the subtext. Team lead does not want you to mention your experience at all, they are giving you an opportunity to abase yourself and tell team lead that your previous experience is in a different field and you are only junior now and how much you respect Team Lead, and instead of doing that you are flagrantly ignoring this chance to make amends, and instead boasting about your previous experience. This is absolutely how people like Team Lead will interpret this interaction, and how they will report it to your Supervisor.

Any, ANY time team lead talks to you, abase yourself. That is what they want. Doesn’t matter what they are saying, that is what they mean.
posted by tinkletown at 11:46 AM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]


These people are insecure assholes who are threatened by you. I don’t see things improving because (see first statement). Look for another job. In the meantime, be completely neutral. Don’t engage at all. If they say anything about your previous job or experience or comment on you at all, smile and change the topic.

Now you’re just buying time until you can leave. Your boss thinks you’re going to take his job and he’s not going to ever warm to you because you’re a threat. It’s just a shitty situation all around and one that’s impossible to win.
posted by Jubey at 2:14 PM on November 18, 2018


I feel like the Double Bind should be mentioned here.
posted by rhizome at 2:43 PM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]


I definitely feel like everything I do will be wrong in team lead's eyes.
Yes, it will. Bring whatever snacks you want to share and ignore anyone who insults them.
posted by soelo at 5:59 PM on November 18, 2018


Team lead does not want you to mention your experience at all, they are giving you an opportunity to abase yourself and tell team lead that your previous experience is in a different field and you are only junior now and how much you respect Team Lead

That was my take as well, that there was at least a 50-50 chance that their comment was an opening for "oh, thanks, but I'm just so focused on learning the ropes here, there's so much to learn!" In other words, thanks but no thanks, I'm fine presenting myself as a beginner. Or, maybe not even directly saying "no" as that could be seen as disrespectful, but saying something more like "you really think so? I just feel like such a novice anyway!"

It sounds like your team lead has some real issues either in general or with you. Building relationships with other people who have power could be great, if you can do that without coming across as insubordinate or disloyal.

I do wonder if there's an opportunity for you to get advice from anyone close to the situation. Like when the Supervisor comes by, is there any chance to say "I really do understand what you're saying. [Reiterate it]. I feel like I must be missing something or miscommunicating, because I'm completely content in this junior role and apparently that isn't coming across? Do you have any advice?"
posted by salvia at 10:22 PM on November 18, 2018


Lots of good advice here but I have to take exception to one thing: the suggestion to bring in treats.

Don't bring in treats for these people any more, ESPECIALLY if you are not a cis white man. It makes it look like you're trying to make up for a deficiency. You are not at all at fault here.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 3:42 PM on November 19, 2018 [3 favorites]


Are you sure the team lead isn't trying to sabotage you to your supervisor? Find a way to CYA if you can. I second that the team lead wants you to act all deferential and give them lots of compliments, regardless of what they say. (This all sounds awful.)
posted by purple_bird at 9:08 AM on November 20, 2018


yeah don't bring in treats. It won't help and can hurt. I saw this in action in a prior workplace (older female colleague whom some folks just decided to dislike) and it just looked, very literally, pathetic.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:03 PM on November 21, 2018


« Older What exactly was my car's tire pressure monitor...   |   Detective mysteries like Ian Rutledge and Bess... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.