Sleep, Benadryl, Alzheimers, And A Lack of Sleep At Night
November 15, 2018 11:44 AM Subscribe
From 2010 to 2016, I took one Benadry a night to help me sleep.
Then I got freaked out by the report that stated that Benadryl, and other drugs, might contribute to a greater chance of Alzheimers.
I stopped taking Benadryl.
And now I can't sleep.
Let's discuss a few things, shall we?
My fantasy is that one night, and maybe for a succession of nights, I will be able to sleep for 6 to 8 hour without waking up. This has eluded me for decades.
As mentioned above, I started taking a Benadryl each night, and it helped a great deal. After the article, and my voluntary ban on the drug, I have tried:
- Melatonin
- Glycine
- Calm Tabs
- Natural Calm Powder
None have really worked.
I want to be really unconscious for 6 to 8 hours of deep sleep.
I have a good, steady sleep schedule and good sleep discipline, I work out and exercise daily, early in the morning, have quit caffeine, but something is missing.
Questions for you:
1) Can someone sciencey tell me if the report is legit? Am I, and others over-reacting to the Benadryl scare? Or, is Benadryl truly the devil?
2) Tell me what supplement you take to get a good night's sleep. I am willing to try anything short of having my wife hit me with a blunt object each night.
3) Feel free to discuss the above.
Thank you!
My fantasy is that one night, and maybe for a succession of nights, I will be able to sleep for 6 to 8 hour without waking up. This has eluded me for decades.
As mentioned above, I started taking a Benadryl each night, and it helped a great deal. After the article, and my voluntary ban on the drug, I have tried:
- Melatonin
- Glycine
- Calm Tabs
- Natural Calm Powder
None have really worked.
I want to be really unconscious for 6 to 8 hours of deep sleep.
I have a good, steady sleep schedule and good sleep discipline, I work out and exercise daily, early in the morning, have quit caffeine, but something is missing.
Questions for you:
1) Can someone sciencey tell me if the report is legit? Am I, and others over-reacting to the Benadryl scare? Or, is Benadryl truly the devil?
2) Tell me what supplement you take to get a good night's sleep. I am willing to try anything short of having my wife hit me with a blunt object each night.
3) Feel free to discuss the above.
Thank you!
I quit Benadryl for the same reason as you and will be following this thread with interest.
CBD oil is the only thing that has helped me. It's legal without a prescription now, where I live, and it's been a godsend. Doesn't make me high, helps me sleep soundly.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:47 AM on November 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
CBD oil is the only thing that has helped me. It's legal without a prescription now, where I live, and it's been a godsend. Doesn't make me high, helps me sleep soundly.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:47 AM on November 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
I used to take 50mg of Xanax for this (it is only an issue for me a few times a month tho) but my doc switched me to 12.5 mg Tramadol recently as it's non-habit forming and she feels that Xanax doesn't give great sleep quality even though I always felt rested the next morning.
I'm also interested in CBD oil and have several friends that it works great for who have actual nightly insomnia, but haven't made the trip to the weed shop yet.
posted by ananci at 11:55 AM on November 15, 2018
I'm also interested in CBD oil and have several friends that it works great for who have actual nightly insomnia, but haven't made the trip to the weed shop yet.
posted by ananci at 11:55 AM on November 15, 2018
Is there a reason you don't want to talk to a doctor about prescription medication? I never slept well my entire life until I started real medication. I take a very low dose (right now Ambien, but formerly Trazodone) every single night, and have for years. There are a lot of options. I have zero side effects. I can even stay up reading after I take a pill if I'm in the middle of a good book, or get up in the middle of the night if I have to, etc. I resisted medicine for a long time but it has improved my life immeasurably.
posted by something something at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by something something at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
Magnesium is supposed to be good to help you stay asleep once you fall asleep, and also helps reduce anxiety. Magnesium glycinate is supposedly better to absorp compared with magnesium citrate.
posted by shortyJBot at 11:57 AM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by shortyJBot at 11:57 AM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
doc switched me to 12.5 mg Tramadol
Tramadol or trazadone? I always get those mixed up but tramadol is typically for pain.
I take 50mg of trazadone before bed - it helps me fall asleep and stay asleep.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Tramadol or trazadone? I always get those mixed up but tramadol is typically for pain.
I take 50mg of trazadone before bed - it helps me fall asleep and stay asleep.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry I wasn't clear. I fall asleep within minutes of turning out the light, it's the staying asleep I have issues with.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2018
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2018
Sleep study? In the meantime, could it be that you are just a light sleeper and you are being awakened by small noises or lights, even if you aren't aware of them? Foam earplugs and a noise generator on your phone are easy tests, and blackout curtains could help too.
posted by sageleaf at 12:03 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by sageleaf at 12:03 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've had severe sleep issues since I was a young child, and Trazadone has been a lifesaver for me. 50mg, about 9 hours before I want to wake up. Even when I do wake up in the middle of the night (I drink a lot of water before bed, so I often have to pee) I fall back asleep quite quickly. No groggyness in the morning unless I've taken it too late. I tried 25mg for awhile, but it was mostly ineffective. Upping to 50mg has now changed my life. For the first time in my life, bedtime doesn't stress me out!
posted by hasna at 12:09 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by hasna at 12:09 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm glad you stopped taking the Benadryl. It really was not designed for continual usage. And the link to dementia appears to be real. In a report published in JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers offers compelling evidence of a link between long-term use of Benadryl and dementia.
The general rule is that "can't fall asleep = anxiety; can't stay asleep = depression." You might want to explore with a doctor whether your sleep problems might be related to depression. If they are, St. John's Wort might be an effective OTC remedy. But don't take it if you're already taking other antidepressants (if you are, then you definitely want to raise the sleeplessness as an issue with your prescriber).
posted by ubiquity at 12:15 PM on November 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
The general rule is that "can't fall asleep = anxiety; can't stay asleep = depression." You might want to explore with a doctor whether your sleep problems might be related to depression. If they are, St. John's Wort might be an effective OTC remedy. But don't take it if you're already taking other antidepressants (if you are, then you definitely want to raise the sleeplessness as an issue with your prescriber).
posted by ubiquity at 12:15 PM on November 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am not a doctor or a scientist but I did just finish reading the excellent book Why We Sleep: The New Science of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker, who is a neuroscientist who researches sleep. It was engaging and interesting and I learned quite a few things.
One thing he states unequivocally is that supplements, broadly speaking, are NOT a good idea for various reasons and that getting at the root problem of the sleep disturbance is important. He recommends a sleep study. You should probably try that and find out what your real problem is, and get that treated. The sleep disturbance is just a symptom.
What worked for me: treatment for anxiety. I have PTSD and hypervigilance was making me wake up many, many times in response to small noises. Treating my anxiety more generally helped immensely.
posted by epanalepsis at 12:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
One thing he states unequivocally is that supplements, broadly speaking, are NOT a good idea for various reasons and that getting at the root problem of the sleep disturbance is important. He recommends a sleep study. You should probably try that and find out what your real problem is, and get that treated. The sleep disturbance is just a symptom.
What worked for me: treatment for anxiety. I have PTSD and hypervigilance was making me wake up many, many times in response to small noises. Treating my anxiety more generally helped immensely.
posted by epanalepsis at 12:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
I take Remeron for sleep. It works great.
Same deal as Trazodone: antidepressant, antihistamine (which is why it makes you sleep), not anticholinergic (which means not linked to dementia). They've got different side effects — Trazodone apparently can cause heart problems, Remeron often makes people gain weight. Talk To Your Doctor About etc.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:23 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Same deal as Trazodone: antidepressant, antihistamine (which is why it makes you sleep), not anticholinergic (which means not linked to dementia). They've got different side effects — Trazodone apparently can cause heart problems, Remeron often makes people gain weight. Talk To Your Doctor About etc.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:23 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I quit Benadryl for the same reason as you
Me too!
The sleep disturbance is just a symptom.
Mine is a symptom of anxiety. So I deal with that by doing the usual stuff (meditation, exercise, eating better, no afternoon caffeine, no screens before bed, etc etc etc) but also, if it's super important, PILLS. Seriously, when I travel for work I have an ambien prescription (I have literally no side effects, it's nice) and it helps a lot. I also had an as-needed Ativan prescription which my doc is trying to turn into something else b/c of addiction concerns (not mine, the medical community in general, I never had a problem with either of these medicines and I am someone who really has to watch my drinking, for example). I also have a white moise machine, super heavy blankets, etc. I think people who sleep well have a hard time understanding that sometimes you can do all the things and still just sleep poorly.
posted by jessamyn at 12:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Me too!
The sleep disturbance is just a symptom.
Mine is a symptom of anxiety. So I deal with that by doing the usual stuff (meditation, exercise, eating better, no afternoon caffeine, no screens before bed, etc etc etc) but also, if it's super important, PILLS. Seriously, when I travel for work I have an ambien prescription (I have literally no side effects, it's nice) and it helps a lot. I also had an as-needed Ativan prescription which my doc is trying to turn into something else b/c of addiction concerns (not mine, the medical community in general, I never had a problem with either of these medicines and I am someone who really has to watch my drinking, for example). I also have a white moise machine, super heavy blankets, etc. I think people who sleep well have a hard time understanding that sometimes you can do all the things and still just sleep poorly.
posted by jessamyn at 12:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Seconding anxiety. The science is that Benadryl tolerance develops very quickly, which suggests that Benadryl wasn't really helping you sleep for all those years. It may help you just to be aware that Benadryl probably wasn't doing much for you.
That said, I have my own sleepy time pill-taking ritual. I drink 4 oz. of tart cherry juice and take zinc and magnesium. Tart cherry juice has some naturally occurring melatonin and has been shown in some studies to help with athletic recovery and sleep, and zinc and magnesium help to relax your muscles.
posted by chrchr at 12:33 PM on November 15, 2018
That said, I have my own sleepy time pill-taking ritual. I drink 4 oz. of tart cherry juice and take zinc and magnesium. Tart cherry juice has some naturally occurring melatonin and has been shown in some studies to help with athletic recovery and sleep, and zinc and magnesium help to relax your muscles.
posted by chrchr at 12:33 PM on November 15, 2018
Even if you have anxiety, if staying asleep is a serious problem, have the sleep study done. It might turn up nothing and that's fine. But sleep apnea, for example, also has a dementia link, and links to a lot of other negative things, including anxiety.
I have pretty serious anxiety and I go through waves of not being able to stay asleep, but if you can't even get this to happen ANY night, no matter what, then that's pointing more strongly towards there being a physiological issue. Even at my worst, I still have occasional nights where I'm just wiped out enough to sleep through the night without taking anything. It's certainly possible that anxiety or depression is this consistent, but I wouldn't be trying other sedatives or supplements at this point until you've ruled out an actual sleep disorder.
posted by Sequence at 12:35 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have pretty serious anxiety and I go through waves of not being able to stay asleep, but if you can't even get this to happen ANY night, no matter what, then that's pointing more strongly towards there being a physiological issue. Even at my worst, I still have occasional nights where I'm just wiped out enough to sleep through the night without taking anything. It's certainly possible that anxiety or depression is this consistent, but I wouldn't be trying other sedatives or supplements at this point until you've ruled out an actual sleep disorder.
posted by Sequence at 12:35 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Mine is a symptom of anxiety. [...] I think people who sleep well have a hard time understanding that sometimes you can do all the things and still just sleep poorly.
Well, sure, me too! I often sleep poorly because of anxiety and have tried ALL THE THINGS, including the blankets, the pills, etc etc etc.
But the OP does not attribute their sleep problems to a specific cause! And I think the OP would be most helped by a visit to their doctor and a referral to a sleep clinic to figure out what their sleep problems are a symptom of before jumping to any conclusions. If pills are required, that's great! But find out why, and what type, first.
posted by epanalepsis at 12:36 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, sure, me too! I often sleep poorly because of anxiety and have tried ALL THE THINGS, including the blankets, the pills, etc etc etc.
But the OP does not attribute their sleep problems to a specific cause! And I think the OP would be most helped by a visit to their doctor and a referral to a sleep clinic to figure out what their sleep problems are a symptom of before jumping to any conclusions. If pills are required, that's great! But find out why, and what type, first.
posted by epanalepsis at 12:36 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I quit Benadryl based on that study as well. Like you, my issue is with staying asleep, not falling asleep. CBD oil and magnesium citrate are doing the job for me now.
posted by HotToddy at 1:17 PM on November 15, 2018
posted by HotToddy at 1:17 PM on November 15, 2018
I know that people usually take melatonin to fall asleep, but I recently read somewhere that it can help people stay asleep (at a very low dose; high doses are counterproductive). I haven't tried it yet myself, and don't know about the long-term effects. I did try Trazodone a long time ago, but was concerned about the long-term effects of that as well (it did work, though). Have you tried cognitive therapy for sleep? Supposedly it is as effective as medication.
posted by pinochiette at 1:30 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by pinochiette at 1:30 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
To pinochiette's point, I have also read that melatonin is not helpful in the doses that are currently marketed the most, i.e., 3mg and above. It is more helpful in microdoses, and to that end a few suppliers make 300mcg doses, which are available on Amazon. I just ordered some, to replace the 3mg tabs I had been quartering for the last few years.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:46 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:46 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hey! We were reading the same horrifying stuff in 2016. My Benadryl use for insomnia spans decades, and these last couple of years have been murder. Aside from the sleeplessness, how's your health? I realized THIS WEEK that Benadryl also has anti-inflammatory effects, and that eliminating it might have angered the antibody-gods governing my autoimmune thyroiditis.
Sublingual-type, single-ingredient melatonin has always been the most effective version of the supplement for me. You might try having low-dose melatonin on hand to take the first time you wake up in the night. (Yeah, it's not the ideal 6-8 hours straight out of the gate, but it's something.) Test on a weekend, as some people experience groggy melatonin hangovers even when taking it incrementally.
Also, do you know that snoring isn't mandatory for sleep apnea? Have a sleep study done - depending on your situation, you may be able to sleep at home for it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:46 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sublingual-type, single-ingredient melatonin has always been the most effective version of the supplement for me. You might try having low-dose melatonin on hand to take the first time you wake up in the night. (Yeah, it's not the ideal 6-8 hours straight out of the gate, but it's something.) Test on a weekend, as some people experience groggy melatonin hangovers even when taking it incrementally.
Also, do you know that snoring isn't mandatory for sleep apnea? Have a sleep study done - depending on your situation, you may be able to sleep at home for it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:46 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I keep waking up in the middle of the night and tossing and turning for hours. Every night.
I do take unisom which is different than all the other OTC sleep aids. They are diphenhydramine while unisom is doxylamine succinate. I've tried to do without and it goes sort of okay.
My next steps are a sleep study though I think I know what is really causing it. Alcohol. If you drink much before bed, you will have disturbed sleep in the second half as the alcohol is filtered out and your body spikes adrenaline.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:51 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I do take unisom which is different than all the other OTC sleep aids. They are diphenhydramine while unisom is doxylamine succinate. I've tried to do without and it goes sort of okay.
My next steps are a sleep study though I think I know what is really causing it. Alcohol. If you drink much before bed, you will have disturbed sleep in the second half as the alcohol is filtered out and your body spikes adrenaline.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:51 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is the 3rd time I've seen the study about long term Benadryl use mentioned and my spidey sense kicked me in the ass and said "I TOLD YOU" so ... yeah.
I have been trying various CBD oils to see how they work and so far, it's been okay. (Still testing it out.) The company I use (Kat's Naturals) has one specifically for sleep (it's low CBD without any THC) and that worked pretty well for both falling and staying asleep.
Maybe try one of the oils and see if it helps. CBD oil is not cheap at all, alas. I can buy a big ass bottle of generic Benadryl for $6 on Amazon but one 15ml bottle of the sleep specific oil is $60+.
Maybe worth a try. My dreams are a lot more fun now. :)
(As an aside, if you are researching the oils, lots of online coupon codes out there so be sure you find one. It helps with the cost a bit.)
posted by Mysticalchick at 2:00 PM on November 15, 2018
I have been trying various CBD oils to see how they work and so far, it's been okay. (Still testing it out.) The company I use (Kat's Naturals) has one specifically for sleep (it's low CBD without any THC) and that worked pretty well for both falling and staying asleep.
Maybe try one of the oils and see if it helps. CBD oil is not cheap at all, alas. I can buy a big ass bottle of generic Benadryl for $6 on Amazon but one 15ml bottle of the sleep specific oil is $60+.
Maybe worth a try. My dreams are a lot more fun now. :)
(As an aside, if you are researching the oils, lots of online coupon codes out there so be sure you find one. It helps with the cost a bit.)
posted by Mysticalchick at 2:00 PM on November 15, 2018
OnTheLastCastle, I'm sincerely sorry to tell you that, like Benadryl, doxylamine succinate is anticholinergic.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:04 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:04 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
L-Glutamine is the Amino Acid that helps deep sleep. You know that thing when you drink and fall asleep, but then suddenly you are WIDE AWAKE in the middle of the night? It’s because your body used all of its L-Glutamine to process the alcohol you drank, and your body needs more to stay asleep.
Body builders use L-Glutamine for recovery after a heavy work out. It’s also supposed to help gut flora, which also may effect your sleep patterns...
It’s cheap and comes in powder form. If I want to sleep deeply occasionally, or I’ve been drinking, that does the trick. You don’t use it efficiently as you age, and I think that’s why as you age your sleep gets wonky? I’m not sure if studies back up my suspicion, or if it would be publicized if L-Glutamine is a simple effective fix. Insomnia is big $$ for the pharmaceutical industry.
Also, it’s perfectly natural to wake up in the middle of the night. Only during recent times, say the last 100 years or so has it become popularized to sleep a straight 8 hrs. Especially if you wake up after a few hours and can’t get back to sleep easily, try L-Glutamine.
My personal sleep supplement recipe is:
L-Glutamine
Magnesium
5-HTP
Melatonin
Works a charm. I also have trouble falling asleep, hence the melatonin. You can leave the melatonin out. Sometimes I take L-Tyrosine to help balance my serotonin and dopamine if I start feeling crappy and lethargic during the day.
I feel better than I have in years and my sleep is fixed since I started playing with amino acids and some other supplements. YMMV. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 2:10 PM on November 15, 2018 [18 favorites]
Body builders use L-Glutamine for recovery after a heavy work out. It’s also supposed to help gut flora, which also may effect your sleep patterns...
It’s cheap and comes in powder form. If I want to sleep deeply occasionally, or I’ve been drinking, that does the trick. You don’t use it efficiently as you age, and I think that’s why as you age your sleep gets wonky? I’m not sure if studies back up my suspicion, or if it would be publicized if L-Glutamine is a simple effective fix. Insomnia is big $$ for the pharmaceutical industry.
Also, it’s perfectly natural to wake up in the middle of the night. Only during recent times, say the last 100 years or so has it become popularized to sleep a straight 8 hrs. Especially if you wake up after a few hours and can’t get back to sleep easily, try L-Glutamine.
My personal sleep supplement recipe is:
L-Glutamine
Magnesium
5-HTP
Melatonin
Works a charm. I also have trouble falling asleep, hence the melatonin. You can leave the melatonin out. Sometimes I take L-Tyrosine to help balance my serotonin and dopamine if I start feeling crappy and lethargic during the day.
I feel better than I have in years and my sleep is fixed since I started playing with amino acids and some other supplements. YMMV. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 2:10 PM on November 15, 2018 [18 favorites]
I'm still on the planet today because of Ambien and the 8 hours of sleep it guarantees. Not an exaggeration. (Also no side effects for me.)
posted by argonauta at 2:18 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by argonauta at 2:18 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
OnTheLastCastle, I'm sincerely sorry to tell you that, like Benadryl, doxylamine succinate is anticholinergic.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:04 PM on November 15 [+] [!]
Nuts. Well, that ends that then. I'd just been trying to find that out and had failed so thank you!
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:04 PM on November 15 [+] [!]
Nuts. Well, that ends that then. I'd just been trying to find that out and had failed so thank you!
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
but also, if it's super important, PILLS
Assuming you have done the obvious stuff (aka the unfortunate term "sleep hygiene"), then meds can really help. It can take some experimenting to see what works for you and what doesn't, of course, and it is not a one size fits all thing at all. I take both the kind you take on a schedule as well as some stronger as-needed ones for situations like sleeping in a hotel the night before a stressful meeting.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:24 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Assuming you have done the obvious stuff (aka the unfortunate term "sleep hygiene"), then meds can really help. It can take some experimenting to see what works for you and what doesn't, of course, and it is not a one size fits all thing at all. I take both the kind you take on a schedule as well as some stronger as-needed ones for situations like sleeping in a hotel the night before a stressful meeting.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:24 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know this isn't exactly an answer to your question, but you might be interested in historical research arguing that before the advent of electric lighting, it was extremely common for people to sleep in two phases, waking up for a couple hours in the middle of the night.
You might also be interested in this post about melatonin. For patent-related reasons, most melatonin is sold in doses greater than 1 milligram, even though it is actually more effective at doses less than 1 milligram. It should be at least cheap to get a bottle of the 0.3 mg pills and try those.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:32 PM on November 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
You might also be interested in this post about melatonin. For patent-related reasons, most melatonin is sold in doses greater than 1 milligram, even though it is actually more effective at doses less than 1 milligram. It should be at least cheap to get a bottle of the 0.3 mg pills and try those.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:32 PM on November 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Steve Gibson has done some personal research into this and come up with his Healthy Sleep Formula which many people swear by.
posted by sydnius at 3:16 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by sydnius at 3:16 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
At the risk of sounding unintentionally snarky: Why is it that you feel you need 6 to 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?
When I first got a fitness tracker that tracks sleep cycles, I was amazed at the results. Maybe this is obvious to everyone else, but I had no idea that it was common to wake up many times during the night without necessarily realizing it. Getting the in-depth data about my sleep, every morning, made me realize that no matter how long I've slept, I don't feel rested unless I've scored at least one hour of deep sleep.
posted by DrGail at 3:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
When I first got a fitness tracker that tracks sleep cycles, I was amazed at the results. Maybe this is obvious to everyone else, but I had no idea that it was common to wake up many times during the night without necessarily realizing it. Getting the in-depth data about my sleep, every morning, made me realize that no matter how long I've slept, I don't feel rested unless I've scored at least one hour of deep sleep.
posted by DrGail at 3:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Have you tried hypnosis?
Have you tried playing sleep music in the background?
Have you tried sleeping with another person, or a large dog? Sometimes people are social, and like babies and small children, they are too anxious to sleep well if they are alone.
Have you tried sleeping with a soother of some sort in your mouth?
Have you tried scheduling some mental creativity during the night, while you sleep, such as working on the dialogue for your novel, or designing new garden for Versailles? If you plan to spend an hour or three not moving and with your eyes closed in the dark, awake and creating, you may find it is very hard to stay awake and actually do the creating. Often people are in a state of semi sleep, and when they become aware of it, they become anxious or angry and that prevents them for going deeper than the semi sleep state. If if you compose your mind to start listing all the equipment colonists would need to terraform Mars, or something equally non-threatening, you may wake up to discover you only got four or five items on your list because instead of being cross about being awake you dived back into a sleep state. One important caveat is to make sure what you are thinking about is a structure goal, not random thoughts, and utterly unimportant, but amusing. So don't think about designing a new government for the USA if that's going to get you seething mad at racism and oligarchies.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Have you tried playing sleep music in the background?
Have you tried sleeping with another person, or a large dog? Sometimes people are social, and like babies and small children, they are too anxious to sleep well if they are alone.
Have you tried sleeping with a soother of some sort in your mouth?
Have you tried scheduling some mental creativity during the night, while you sleep, such as working on the dialogue for your novel, or designing new garden for Versailles? If you plan to spend an hour or three not moving and with your eyes closed in the dark, awake and creating, you may find it is very hard to stay awake and actually do the creating. Often people are in a state of semi sleep, and when they become aware of it, they become anxious or angry and that prevents them for going deeper than the semi sleep state. If if you compose your mind to start listing all the equipment colonists would need to terraform Mars, or something equally non-threatening, you may wake up to discover you only got four or five items on your list because instead of being cross about being awake you dived back into a sleep state. One important caveat is to make sure what you are thinking about is a structure goal, not random thoughts, and utterly unimportant, but amusing. So don't think about designing a new government for the USA if that's going to get you seething mad at racism and oligarchies.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I used to memorize poems and then when I was lying awake, recite them silently. You do have to have a bunch of stuff memorized, but that is highly effective technique for going back to sleep used by many people. It doesn't have to be poetry. It could be the anatomy you studied in pre-med, or conjugating Latin verbs. Even going through all the lyrics of all the songs you can think of can work, if there are enough of them.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:31 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:31 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'll toss out a couple more basic suggestions that appear to have been overlooked.
1. Caffeine. Everyone knows that too much makes you too wired to fall asleep But even in small doses, it disturbs your sleep, making you spend more time in that threshold level where you're dreaming, you're semi-awake.
I quite caffeine cold turkey a couple of years ago and the improvement in my sleep is substantial.
2. The right sleeping surface. Once you've found the sleep surface that works best for you, you'll do a lot less thrashing, less waking, and your back won't be sore when you awake. I recommend spending time on The Mattress Underground to gain a better understanding of what kind of mattresses and mattress components are out there, and how they affect the final feel of the mattress. In my case, I'm short and fat and a thrasher at night. My concentrated weight ruins pillowtops and doesn't allow me to move freely on memory foam. I finally sprung for a very springy latex topper, which is much more resilient and longer lasting than conventional foam, and doesn't trap/embrace me like memory foam. Between the new topper and cutting out caffeine, I sleep deeply and well for the first time since my childhood.
posted by Lunaloon at 4:34 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
1. Caffeine. Everyone knows that too much makes you too wired to fall asleep But even in small doses, it disturbs your sleep, making you spend more time in that threshold level where you're dreaming, you're semi-awake.
I quite caffeine cold turkey a couple of years ago and the improvement in my sleep is substantial.
2. The right sleeping surface. Once you've found the sleep surface that works best for you, you'll do a lot less thrashing, less waking, and your back won't be sore when you awake. I recommend spending time on The Mattress Underground to gain a better understanding of what kind of mattresses and mattress components are out there, and how they affect the final feel of the mattress. In my case, I'm short and fat and a thrasher at night. My concentrated weight ruins pillowtops and doesn't allow me to move freely on memory foam. I finally sprung for a very springy latex topper, which is much more resilient and longer lasting than conventional foam, and doesn't trap/embrace me like memory foam. Between the new topper and cutting out caffeine, I sleep deeply and well for the first time since my childhood.
posted by Lunaloon at 4:34 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have debilitating insomnia, and gabapentin is the only thing that helps me stay asleep even a little.
I don't know how bad your insomnia is, or if you've already tried the many things other folks have suggested. But if it's bad and you have... I'd keep using what works. Lack of sleep is miserable and life threatening in its own right; if it's destroying your quality of life, the risk might be worth it. I'd sacrifice 20 years of my life for better function now, to be honest.
posted by metasarah at 6:21 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't know how bad your insomnia is, or if you've already tried the many things other folks have suggested. But if it's bad and you have... I'd keep using what works. Lack of sleep is miserable and life threatening in its own right; if it's destroying your quality of life, the risk might be worth it. I'd sacrifice 20 years of my life for better function now, to be honest.
posted by metasarah at 6:21 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Listening to podcasts also sometimes helps me go back to sleep, particularly this one: https://www.sleepwithmepodcast.com/. Or a gentle audiobook with a British narrator.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:56 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:56 PM on November 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I take two Benadryl every night, plus .75 mg of Xanax, and somehow I am alive. In fact, because of that I can actually sleep. As long as I'm in a hammock and listening to an audiobook or some other agreeable talking.
Ok, in all fairness, the Xanax is more crucial than the Benadryl for sleep overall, but if I stop taking Benadryl it feels as if I have a bladder full of lemon juice and broken glass. I started having symptoms after I stopped taking the Benadryl and Zyrtec that my allergist suggested I take, because of that damn study. Interstitial Cystitis is the universe's way of telling you that you aren't taking enough anticholinergics. With two exceptions, all of the drugs used to treat the symptoms are fancier and more expensive anticholinergics. Which is why I don't buy the $50 for 10 days prescription blue pee pill and just take Benadryl instead.
Anyway.
Things that didn't work for me for sleep for one reason or another: Trazodone, Remeron, Seroquel, all of the z drugs (Ambien and non-benzo sleep drugs), meditation, quiet, a bed, quitting caffeine, any other benzo than Xanax, melatonin, magnesium (helps with restless legs though), Benadryl alone or with any other antihistamine, codiene, apple cider vinegar, coconut oil, any other random thing found on the Internet suggested by Internet strangers
So far, all of my doctors consider guaranteed sleep now to be important. Without it, there's little point in treating anything else that's wrong.
Because this damn study that proved absolutely nothing but suggested a correlation that people who take a variety of anticholinergic medications for whatever reasons seem to be more likely to have problems with dementia as they age was presented as True Evidence, a lot of people have panicked and stopped taking simple meds for that worked for them. And so now there are a lot of people who are taking drugs that are just as anticholinergic as the ones they replaced but aren't aware of it, because they got it from a doctor and didn't do any research. And people who are just a bit more miserable because they've decided that one observational study on a select population is the gospel truth. It reminds me of the vaccinations might cause autism scare.
As I see it, anticholinergics might be a problem in the future and if taking them is an issue I'll be open to alternatives, but if you can't sleep everything is bad now and it probably isn't going to magically improve in the future if you haven't slept or haven't felt as if you've slept for years.
posted by monopas at 10:35 PM on November 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Ok, in all fairness, the Xanax is more crucial than the Benadryl for sleep overall, but if I stop taking Benadryl it feels as if I have a bladder full of lemon juice and broken glass. I started having symptoms after I stopped taking the Benadryl and Zyrtec that my allergist suggested I take, because of that damn study. Interstitial Cystitis is the universe's way of telling you that you aren't taking enough anticholinergics. With two exceptions, all of the drugs used to treat the symptoms are fancier and more expensive anticholinergics. Which is why I don't buy the $50 for 10 days prescription blue pee pill and just take Benadryl instead.
Anyway.
Things that didn't work for me for sleep for one reason or another: Trazodone, Remeron, Seroquel, all of the z drugs (Ambien and non-benzo sleep drugs), meditation, quiet, a bed, quitting caffeine, any other benzo than Xanax, melatonin, magnesium (helps with restless legs though), Benadryl alone or with any other antihistamine, codiene, apple cider vinegar, coconut oil, any other random thing found on the Internet suggested by Internet strangers
So far, all of my doctors consider guaranteed sleep now to be important. Without it, there's little point in treating anything else that's wrong.
Because this damn study that proved absolutely nothing but suggested a correlation that people who take a variety of anticholinergic medications for whatever reasons seem to be more likely to have problems with dementia as they age was presented as True Evidence, a lot of people have panicked and stopped taking simple meds for that worked for them. And so now there are a lot of people who are taking drugs that are just as anticholinergic as the ones they replaced but aren't aware of it, because they got it from a doctor and didn't do any research. And people who are just a bit more miserable because they've decided that one observational study on a select population is the gospel truth. It reminds me of the vaccinations might cause autism scare.
As I see it, anticholinergics might be a problem in the future and if taking them is an issue I'll be open to alternatives, but if you can't sleep everything is bad now and it probably isn't going to magically improve in the future if you haven't slept or haven't felt as if you've slept for years.
posted by monopas at 10:35 PM on November 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
I take vitamin D3, and a 500mg calcium, magnesium pill most nights. I noticed the nights I take these I dream amazingly. I wear non binding sleep attire. I make sure I am tired when I go to bed. No cafffeine after 2:00 in the afternoon. I do not eat after 5:00 PM, I will drink water, but not within an hour of bedtime. I keep my phone in another room from where I sleep. I make sure all the little blinking lights from computers, and so forth are off. My place is curtained to decrease changes in light ambiance from neighbor's trouble lights, and passing cars. I get at least an hour of exercise most days. I don't watch TV, but if I did, I would not watch things that offer unresolved trauma near bedtime, nor would I watch the news. Friends who visited recently were appalled at the noise levels in my neighborhood, Within two small city blocks, I have a trauma center with ambulances, and helicopters, a fire station, and busy train tracks, an airport within a mile and so forth.
The exercise, brisk walking, and some calisthenics helps with breathing and natural tiredness. I have a commitment to sleep, regardless of what else plagues me. It is a deal I made with myself, and I push a lot of other things back, to facilitate it. It is a part of a good, respectful, relationship with my physical self.
posted by Oyéah at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
The exercise, brisk walking, and some calisthenics helps with breathing and natural tiredness. I have a commitment to sleep, regardless of what else plagues me. It is a deal I made with myself, and I push a lot of other things back, to facilitate it. It is a part of a good, respectful, relationship with my physical self.
posted by Oyéah at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
monopas, I'm glad you have something that works for the IC overnight. The most effective, possibly-same-maker generic Benadryl I'd found was Kirkland's, at $6 for 600 tablets in-warehouse; also available via Amazon at $9 for 600.
Like some of the others, I've also taken magnesium, in ZMA (with zinc and B6), in other formulations with calcium, and I've also tried applying topical magnesium oil before bed. Right now I'm experimenting with phosphatidylserine, as PS-100, too.
MMMD, if it's possible the sleeplessness is tied to frequent urination, that would be another reason to see a doctor - nocturia is symptom, and your current insomnia may have different underpinnings than it did prior to 2010. Also, if you're a vitamin-and-supplement enthusiast during the day, make sure you're dosing and timing correctly for you. (Some people experience issues taking vitamin D, some B vitamins, and fish oil too late in the day.)
Because I don't see it mentioned: lower levels of iron or b12 can wake you by triggering subtle muscle cramping, and - like the urination thing - this can be hard to recognize when you're resentfully, blearily awake and restless anyway.
As for historical bi-phasic sleep - I'm not sure modern-age you could get to bed early enough most days to make that work, or make it work in general since you share a bed with your wife.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:26 AM on November 16, 2018
Like some of the others, I've also taken magnesium, in ZMA (with zinc and B6), in other formulations with calcium, and I've also tried applying topical magnesium oil before bed. Right now I'm experimenting with phosphatidylserine, as PS-100, too.
MMMD, if it's possible the sleeplessness is tied to frequent urination, that would be another reason to see a doctor - nocturia is symptom, and your current insomnia may have different underpinnings than it did prior to 2010. Also, if you're a vitamin-and-supplement enthusiast during the day, make sure you're dosing and timing correctly for you. (Some people experience issues taking vitamin D, some B vitamins, and fish oil too late in the day.)
Because I don't see it mentioned: lower levels of iron or b12 can wake you by triggering subtle muscle cramping, and - like the urination thing - this can be hard to recognize when you're resentfully, blearily awake and restless anyway.
As for historical bi-phasic sleep - I'm not sure modern-age you could get to bed early enough most days to make that work, or make it work in general since you share a bed with your wife.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:26 AM on November 16, 2018
Less benadryl is probably better than more, so before going cold turkey, you may also want to try titrating the dose to the absolute minimum. Benadryl is my in-case-of-emergency-break-glass sedative, as melatonin usually works for me (if the issue is going to sleep, which it's not in your case). But I've found that a tiny amount of benadryl goes a long way - ymmv, but after a half a pill, i wake up the next morning not knowing what year it is.
posted by condour75 at 5:14 PM on November 16, 2018
posted by condour75 at 5:14 PM on November 16, 2018
Response by poster: Hello again!
I wanted to circle back around on this for a few reasons.
First, thank you ALL for your amazing and thoughtful answers, I really hope that this thread will be of service to someone in the future, when they are having sleep issues. There is some great advice here!
Second, one answer that was small, but stood out, was the mention of Steve Gibson and his Healthy Sleep Formula. After reading the link, I decided to try it out. I couldn't find all the exact ingredients, so I decided to come close with LiftMode and Niacinamide.
I figured that I could escalate the Niacinamide easily if I needed to, with that small of a dose.
LiftMode had the Melatonin and Oleamide.
First night I took two LiftModes and one Niacinamide - out like a light, as usual, didn't wake up until midnight, quickly back out, woke up again at 3, again, quickly back out until my wrist started vibrating with my Garmin alarm.
SUCH A BIG IMPROVEMENT!
I'll continue tweaking and experimenting, but just wanted to say thank you again, I appreciate it.
- Bill
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 4:58 AM on November 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
I wanted to circle back around on this for a few reasons.
First, thank you ALL for your amazing and thoughtful answers, I really hope that this thread will be of service to someone in the future, when they are having sleep issues. There is some great advice here!
Second, one answer that was small, but stood out, was the mention of Steve Gibson and his Healthy Sleep Formula. After reading the link, I decided to try it out. I couldn't find all the exact ingredients, so I decided to come close with LiftMode and Niacinamide.
I figured that I could escalate the Niacinamide easily if I needed to, with that small of a dose.
LiftMode had the Melatonin and Oleamide.
First night I took two LiftModes and one Niacinamide - out like a light, as usual, didn't wake up until midnight, quickly back out, woke up again at 3, again, quickly back out until my wrist started vibrating with my Garmin alarm.
SUCH A BIG IMPROVEMENT!
I'll continue tweaking and experimenting, but just wanted to say thank you again, I appreciate it.
- Bill
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 4:58 AM on November 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
That's terrific -- thanks so much for providing an update!
Please consider adding the "insomnia" tag, for that future someone?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:31 AM on November 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Please consider adding the "insomnia" tag, for that future someone?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:31 AM on November 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:45 AM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]