In this situation, who was insensitive? (NSFW situation ahead)
October 7, 2018 8:28 PM Subscribe
Please help me come to grips (pun intended) with this situation with an ex that still causes me guilt. My ex-girlfriend would wake herself up nearly every morning by masturbating. It bothered me mainly because it woke me up an hour or two before my alarm and I had a hard time falling asleep afterward. I'm not particularly into morning sex and she also didn't seem to expect/want any participation on my part so it felt strange to lay there while the bed shook.
She never brought it up to me, it was something I noticed after we moved in together. When my schedule changed and made getting enough sleep more of a priority, I talked to her about it, explaining how it was waking me up. She shut down the conversation, claiming I was shaming her for something totally normal. I explained that masturbation didn't bother me but it did make me feel awkward because I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do (apparently not wake up). However, I do feel like masturbation is a solo activity unless otherwise agreed upon with the other person.
FWIW, I'm a lesbian who was enjoyed many a mutual masturbation session with partners. It remained a sore spot in our relationship which was (obviously) riddled with a lot of other communication issues.
I'd like to gain a better understanding of whether this is a common/normal thing and if I was insensitive to bring it up. This relationship warped my sense of normalcy in a lot of ways — I don't feel comfortable talking to friends about it and I'm not sure how to bring it up in therapy. (Note I'm not in contact with this ex and don't plan to be, this is just for my own growth.) What say you, mefites?
She never brought it up to me, it was something I noticed after we moved in together. When my schedule changed and made getting enough sleep more of a priority, I talked to her about it, explaining how it was waking me up. She shut down the conversation, claiming I was shaming her for something totally normal. I explained that masturbation didn't bother me but it did make me feel awkward because I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do (apparently not wake up). However, I do feel like masturbation is a solo activity unless otherwise agreed upon with the other person.
FWIW, I'm a lesbian who was enjoyed many a mutual masturbation session with partners. It remained a sore spot in our relationship which was (obviously) riddled with a lot of other communication issues.
I'd like to gain a better understanding of whether this is a common/normal thing and if I was insensitive to bring it up. This relationship warped my sense of normalcy in a lot of ways — I don't feel comfortable talking to friends about it and I'm not sure how to bring it up in therapy. (Note I'm not in contact with this ex and don't plan to be, this is just for my own growth.) What say you, mefites?
Best answer: It is absolutely not okay to engage in sexual stuff with another person present - even if they're sleeping - without their consent. And I think that the fact that your partner tried to shut you down when you wanted to talk about it was also a huge red flag. The problem in this relationship was not a sexual one, it was a problem of boundaries. What your partner did was not ok and I'm sorry that happened to you.
posted by sockermom at 8:36 PM on October 7, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 8:36 PM on October 7, 2018 [31 favorites]
Best answer: I'd be fine with this and I don't see it as an absolute boundary issue. Of course, the problem is that you brought it up and didn't get an opportunity to discuss and find a solution and got shut-down instead. That's not an acceptable way to communicate with a partner. I'd be especially upset about my reasonable attempt to bring it up being framed as shaming.
posted by quince at 8:43 PM on October 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by quince at 8:43 PM on October 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think it’s rude to wake someone up who you presumably like having in your bed by doing loud or jostling things when they are sleeping. If someone did that to me more than once I’d think they were trying to send some kind of passive aggressive message. Like they want you to wake up and entertain them, maybe? Beating off near someone without their permission seems generally transgressive. So much so that I’d wonder about their cognitive makeup if I was inclined to feel charitable or I’d worry about what other boundaries they intended to push. Of course to push back on you when you brought it up seems to point to either a them issue or a relationship issue. Obviously, people can differ on this. But, really, let a sleeping person sleep!
posted by amanda at 9:01 PM on October 7, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by amanda at 9:01 PM on October 7, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: As an extremely light sleeper who takes a while to fall asleep, needs medication, earplugs, and occasionally white noise to get through the night this would have been a deal breaker to me. Good sleep is essential to good health and the fact that your partner summarily dismissed you shows a profound disregard for your health and well-being.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with masturbation, but that's an optional activity that can take place at different times and in different places. Sleep isn't optional and given human beings' circadian rhythms there is only so much variation in time it can occur. As the person who wanted to engage in this optional activity she should have opted to do it elsewhere.
It is not normal, or more importantly, not kind, to dismiss a loved one's issues without an attempt to work out a solution. Surely with some discussion a reasonable solution could have been worked out, but she wouldn't even entertain that. This made her in the wrong for a second time.
posted by brookeb at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
Of course, there's nothing wrong with masturbation, but that's an optional activity that can take place at different times and in different places. Sleep isn't optional and given human beings' circadian rhythms there is only so much variation in time it can occur. As the person who wanted to engage in this optional activity she should have opted to do it elsewhere.
It is not normal, or more importantly, not kind, to dismiss a loved one's issues without an attempt to work out a solution. Surely with some discussion a reasonable solution could have been worked out, but she wouldn't even entertain that. This made her in the wrong for a second time.
posted by brookeb at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I agree it’s a violation for someone to do something sexual with you in the room, but without your consent.
I am very sexually adventurous and have had lots of regular partners, many many casual encounters. This would upset me in a committed relationship or in the morning after a night of fun with a new person. It’s a violation.
If it felt violating, that’s enough. You don’t need anyone’s permission to feel how you feel.
But yeah, I can see exactly why you are upset + how there may have been other not great things in that relationship. Short term therapy or some journaling mught not be a bad idea here. You deserve to be heard.
posted by jbenben at 9:48 PM on October 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am very sexually adventurous and have had lots of regular partners, many many casual encounters. This would upset me in a committed relationship or in the morning after a night of fun with a new person. It’s a violation.
If it felt violating, that’s enough. You don’t need anyone’s permission to feel how you feel.
But yeah, I can see exactly why you are upset + how there may have been other not great things in that relationship. Short term therapy or some journaling mught not be a bad idea here. You deserve to be heard.
posted by jbenben at 9:48 PM on October 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I get VERY cranky if I'm woken up an hour or two before my alarm, for any reason. That's the time frame where you're lucky if you fall back asleep and even if you do it won't be very restful (at least with the way my REM cycles seem to work). You were NOT inappropriate to find this annoying. There are other places in the home to go get that stuff done.
posted by joan_holloway at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by joan_holloway at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Hey - I just want to clarify a bit because you said in principal you were OK with the masturbation to an extent, but when you talked to her about it she shut you down + continued doing it - if I understand correctly?
You indicated Thing was a problem for you for Reasons, then your partner continued doing Thing, anyway.
That’s the dynamic that is a violation. But also, it’s not cool for someone to do something sexual in the same room with you without your consent. You withdrew consent, she ignored your stated boundary.
posted by jbenben at 10:29 PM on October 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
You indicated Thing was a problem for you for Reasons, then your partner continued doing Thing, anyway.
That’s the dynamic that is a violation. But also, it’s not cool for someone to do something sexual in the same room with you without your consent. You withdrew consent, she ignored your stated boundary.
posted by jbenben at 10:29 PM on October 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Masturbating while the other was asleep wouldn't have raised an eye in any of my relationships (especially once we were living together) but doing something that woke the other would have been an issue.
posted by Candleman at 10:31 PM on October 7, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 10:31 PM on October 7, 2018 [22 favorites]
Best answer: She might feel awkward knowing you've been awake when she thought you were asleep. It sounds like this is a very strong habit, but you should be allowed to sleep; perhaps she could go in the other room.
posted by theora55 at 11:29 PM on October 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 11:29 PM on October 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Completely on your side here. The only correct response in her case would have been something like, "oh no, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you!"
(Even then, somewhat sketchy, at least assuming this wasn't like, high school. But at least specifically in my case, if I got the correct response, and the behavior wasn't part of a larger pattern of poor boundaries, it would probably be something I would be able to move past. It's the aggressive, gaslight-y response -- like, nobody said it wasn't "natural" to masturbate, ffs! -- that definitively pushes this into "wtf absolutely not cool" territory for me.)
posted by en forme de poire at 11:37 PM on October 7, 2018
(Even then, somewhat sketchy, at least assuming this wasn't like, high school. But at least specifically in my case, if I got the correct response, and the behavior wasn't part of a larger pattern of poor boundaries, it would probably be something I would be able to move past. It's the aggressive, gaslight-y response -- like, nobody said it wasn't "natural" to masturbate, ffs! -- that definitively pushes this into "wtf absolutely not cool" territory for me.)
posted by en forme de poire at 11:37 PM on October 7, 2018
Best answer: I talked to her about it, explaining how it was waking me up. She shut down the conversation, claiming I was shaming her for something totally normal.
Sounds to me like she was the one with masturbation shame, not you, and that she was completely overcompensating for that by conflating your totally reasonable desire not to be gratuitously woken early every. fucking. day! with her own internal shaming.
I can't think of a single reason why it remains in any way appropriate for you to beat yourself up over this.
posted by flabdablet at 11:54 PM on October 7, 2018 [13 favorites]
Sounds to me like she was the one with masturbation shame, not you, and that she was completely overcompensating for that by conflating your totally reasonable desire not to be gratuitously woken early every. fucking. day! with her own internal shaming.
I can't think of a single reason why it remains in any way appropriate for you to beat yourself up over this.
posted by flabdablet at 11:54 PM on October 7, 2018 [13 favorites]
Best answer: For me sex has nothing to do with it. She could be over there making cookies and if she was waking me up there would be a problem.
Getting good sleep has a huge effect on quality of life. Sleep in separate beds before sleeping with someone who jeopardizes that for you.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:09 AM on October 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
Getting good sleep has a huge effect on quality of life. Sleep in separate beds before sleeping with someone who jeopardizes that for you.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:09 AM on October 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
Best answer: Being in a relationship does NOT negate the need for consent for sexual activity with OR near someone. (Or physical touch, etc.) You did not consent. When you tried to make it clear you don't consent, you got ignored.* That is not okay. And agreed that a huge issue here is that it's waking you up. Any relationship means compromise- NOT doing whatever you want and making the other person deal with it. Snoring can also be "normal" but if one partner is kept awake you better find some sort of solution.
*Personally my spouse and I have agreed we have ongoing consent to touch/sexual activity until someone withdraws consent. It's as simple as "not right now" or "I don't want to be touched."
posted by Crystalinne at 1:33 AM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
*Personally my spouse and I have agreed we have ongoing consent to touch/sexual activity until someone withdraws consent. It's as simple as "not right now" or "I don't want to be touched."
posted by Crystalinne at 1:33 AM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Sleep is sacred. Whether it’s giggling from reading something funny, mastubating, or doing stretches in bed, it is NOT okay to wake me up, on purpose, an hour or two before I need to awaken. I’d be cranky as all hell. Same for my partner if I did something like that. It’s one thing to wake me up bc of a cough or something else partner can’t help. But a purposeful activity that can be engaged elsewhere ? Not cool!
The fact that your ex would be so indifferent to your needs is really disturbing. I’m glad you’re not in that relationship anymore.
posted by Neekee at 4:17 AM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
The fact that your ex would be so indifferent to your needs is really disturbing. I’m glad you’re not in that relationship anymore.
posted by Neekee at 4:17 AM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I do it all the time while my husband is sleeping, but I’m very very careful to not disturb him. It had never even crossed my mind that it would be a problem, less of all an issue of consent, but rather courtesy. I’m the one who sleeps lightly though and masturbating actually helps me lessen my insomnia.
If it was ever an issue I would obviously stop immediately but he sleeps right through it. In my opinion, your ex violated your boundaries when she explicitly refused to stop a behavior that was bothering you for perfectly legitimate reasons (awkwardness, sleep disturbance, a sense of violation). You are right to be upset.
posted by lydhre at 4:56 AM on October 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
If it was ever an issue I would obviously stop immediately but he sleeps right through it. In my opinion, your ex violated your boundaries when she explicitly refused to stop a behavior that was bothering you for perfectly legitimate reasons (awkwardness, sleep disturbance, a sense of violation). You are right to be upset.
posted by lydhre at 4:56 AM on October 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: As the answers are showing, opinion on the appropriateness of masturbating in a partner's presence without their knowledge varies wildly. I have trauma related to this (if you are wondering if some people weaponize this practice as part of a pattern of abuse, the answer is definitely yes, so feel validated if you were getting the feeling that's what was going on) so it's a hard no for me regardless of whether or not my sleep is being interrupted, but I've met a lot of other people who don't care, you (literally) do you. BUUUUT, the sleep disruption thing is rude as hell regardless of your position on the consent issues. Super unacceptable and dismissive of your needs.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:42 AM on October 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:42 AM on October 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I wouldn't be bothered about a partner masturbating in bed next to me without pre-existing consent for that specific activity, but I WOULD be bothered by them refusing to accommodate my needs in shared bed space.
posted by spindrifter at 7:35 AM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 7:35 AM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, for future reference, in my book it is totally, 100% appropriate to address this kind of thing right away in the moment. "Hey, I'm trying to sleep, can you go somewhere else?" It doesn't have to be a big sit-down conversation. It sounds like y'all had some deeper communication issues that made this more complex, but it doesn't have to be that way.
posted by muddgirl at 9:04 AM on October 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:04 AM on October 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: it has never been an issue in any of my live in relationships that i masturbate in bed while my partner is sleeping. i'm honestly surprised how hardline many are in the thread about this, but we all get to make our own lines. disrupting your sleep and refusing to discuss it is rude as hell. to me it wouldn't matter what the activity was with that being the response to your totally appropriate issue.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:35 AM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:35 AM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Your partner was wrong. Waking someone up isn't cool. She could and should absolutely have walked 15 feet to the sofa for her morning fun.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2018
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:46 AM on October 8, 2018
Yeah, I'm also piping in to say this doesn't necessarily need to be about consent and sexual violation to be inappropriate. Disrupting your partner's health by disrupting their sleep is sufficiently inappropriate. In my relationship, there is presumed consent for my husband to masturbate while I sleep, but I would be pretty pissed if he regularly cost me hours of sleep.
posted by namesarehard at 2:04 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by namesarehard at 2:04 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would not be okay with this either. Of course there's no problem with it if its consensual, but it was rude of her to dismiss it because it woke you up. Same as it would be rude if in the morning she enjoyed listening to a podcast in bed with the volume too high, or decided to do a morning yoga routine on the floor of the bedroom, bumping and moving around. She has every right to do those things, away from a person who is still trying to sleep! She was definitely in the wrong.
posted by belliceNH at 9:58 PM on October 8, 2018
posted by belliceNH at 9:58 PM on October 8, 2018
Best answer: The reason to take a hard line on the consent issue is this: However, I do feel like masturbation is a solo activity unless otherwise agreed upon with the other person.
That is why this is a consent problem (and by extension, a boundary problem). I don't think that it's necessarily wrong to masturbate in bed while one's partner is sleeping, but it is absolutely wrong to do so if your partner isn't okay with it without consenting - "agreed upon with the other person" is basically the definition of consent. You never had the chance to agree. And you were shut down when you did try to talk about it - that's a huge problem. Your partner was telling you that she did not care if you consented to that sexual activity. And the way she told you, in this case, was very questionable and raises all kinds of red flags: shutting you down and saying that you were wrong for bringing it up, that you were shaming her for bringing it up? That's not great. At all.
Consent is contextual. You've asked whether or not it was okay for you to feel uncomfortable with a sexual activity. Your reasons for feeling uncomfortable with it were mostly not related to the fact that it was sexual, but the fact remains that the answer to that question is always yes. It is also not insensitive to discuss the type of sexual activity you are and are not comfortable with with your partner. You were not insensitive for trying to discuss this. That is how consent is managed in a relationship. You were not wrong to try to do this.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
posted by sockermom at 10:01 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
That is why this is a consent problem (and by extension, a boundary problem). I don't think that it's necessarily wrong to masturbate in bed while one's partner is sleeping, but it is absolutely wrong to do so if your partner isn't okay with it without consenting - "agreed upon with the other person" is basically the definition of consent. You never had the chance to agree. And you were shut down when you did try to talk about it - that's a huge problem. Your partner was telling you that she did not care if you consented to that sexual activity. And the way she told you, in this case, was very questionable and raises all kinds of red flags: shutting you down and saying that you were wrong for bringing it up, that you were shaming her for bringing it up? That's not great. At all.
Consent is contextual. You've asked whether or not it was okay for you to feel uncomfortable with a sexual activity. Your reasons for feeling uncomfortable with it were mostly not related to the fact that it was sexual, but the fact remains that the answer to that question is always yes. It is also not insensitive to discuss the type of sexual activity you are and are not comfortable with with your partner. You were not insensitive for trying to discuss this. That is how consent is managed in a relationship. You were not wrong to try to do this.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
posted by sockermom at 10:01 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yeah, I think it goes a little beyond just being inconsiderate. I mean, her response essentially boils down to "you have to let me masturbate in front of you and I don't care that it makes you uncomfortable." When you look at the position she actually seems to be taking, there's an element of sexual aggression that wouldn't be there if she were "just" waking you up with her loud calisthenics routine. Which would still, to be clear, be an inconsiderate way to treat a partner.
Again, I wouldn't personally perceive a partner masturbating next to me as aggressive in all circumstances; for me it would really depend on context (were they trying not to wake me? did we have an implicit understanding? etc.), and on how they reacted if I brought it up. But in this case, you unambiguously withdrew consent and it sounds like she didn't honor that.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:20 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Again, I wouldn't personally perceive a partner masturbating next to me as aggressive in all circumstances; for me it would really depend on context (were they trying not to wake me? did we have an implicit understanding? etc.), and on how they reacted if I brought it up. But in this case, you unambiguously withdrew consent and it sounds like she didn't honor that.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:20 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: You are all wonderful. Thank you for giving my mind ease about this thing from an old relationship that occasionally comes back to haunt me. I've talked about this in therapy and didn't get this kind of insight! Every answer (unheard of!) here was helpful for me but I marked as best answers the ones that either gave me a lightbulb moment or ones I found to be especially compassionate.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 5:29 PM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 5:29 PM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by muddgirl at 8:34 PM on October 7, 2018 [30 favorites]