All apologies
October 2, 2018 6:39 PM Subscribe
My partner hates apologies. I probably over apologize and expect such. I am at my wits end. Help me rationalize and come out healthier.
The above effectively captures it, but unless prompted my partner does not apologize. Ever. Today, for example, our house was broken into because he forgot to lock our back doors. Clearly he did not mean to do that but he did all the same. It did not even remotely occur to him to express regret or mild responsibility. It was simply an accident not worth remarking on. It genuinely does not seem like his brain functions even somewhat like mine and that is fascinating if bizarre.
I am the opposite in every possible way. I apologize and feel better and more secure when others apologize. I’m willing to create a better and more accommodating framework for us - preferably one where we both learn something but I’ll be resigned if just me has to swallow my pride here. Advice, resources, personal stories welcome. Thank you.
The above effectively captures it, but unless prompted my partner does not apologize. Ever. Today, for example, our house was broken into because he forgot to lock our back doors. Clearly he did not mean to do that but he did all the same. It did not even remotely occur to him to express regret or mild responsibility. It was simply an accident not worth remarking on. It genuinely does not seem like his brain functions even somewhat like mine and that is fascinating if bizarre.
I am the opposite in every possible way. I apologize and feel better and more secure when others apologize. I’m willing to create a better and more accommodating framework for us - preferably one where we both learn something but I’ll be resigned if just me has to swallow my pride here. Advice, resources, personal stories welcome. Thank you.
You haven't given us an example that illustrates why you feel you "over apologize" or something where you apologized and your partner felt your apology was unwarranted. The situation you've illustrated is one that IMO would require some contrition, or simply an expressed vow not fuck up like that again. So far it looks like your partner is some combination of clueless and callous and you're asking how to deal with that.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:03 PM on October 2, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:03 PM on October 2, 2018 [20 favorites]
If you're describing this accurately it sounds like an unhealthy dynamic that may even be abusive, with your partner never apologizing for anything and you apologizing for everything. Does he expect apologies from you? If he just doesn't get the point of anybody apologizing ever that's kind of weird, but if he never apologizes but expects apologies from you that's real bad news.
If you leave a door unlocked and the house gets broken into, you apologize to your partner for making a costly mistake. It's not the worst mistake ever made, it happens, but acting like you're blameless in the break-in is... just weird, and asshole-y. If you're looking for compromises and your partner just won't budge, I think immediate couples counseling is in order. But even then, I'm afraid I wouldn't be very optimistic.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:04 PM on October 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
If you leave a door unlocked and the house gets broken into, you apologize to your partner for making a costly mistake. It's not the worst mistake ever made, it happens, but acting like you're blameless in the break-in is... just weird, and asshole-y. If you're looking for compromises and your partner just won't budge, I think immediate couples counseling is in order. But even then, I'm afraid I wouldn't be very optimistic.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:04 PM on October 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Good question in first two responses - I’m trying to think of an explicit example of potentially over apologizing, and I’m not coming up with one that won’t be rather like a novel But, it usually results in my partner accusing me of martyr-like behavior (less because of fact of apology and more due to my desire to ‘make up’ for whatever event drove it). I resist the martyr characterizAtioN but dramatic acts of making up/contrition are not crazy for me. He does NOT expect apologies from me.
posted by xaire at 7:09 PM on October 2, 2018
posted by xaire at 7:09 PM on October 2, 2018
Is he apologetic in other, more socially-defined situations?
Another thing to think about might be whether there's a distinction between an apology and acknowledging responsibility in his mind. You say that he doesn't do either, though, and that doesn't sound good to me - regardless of your different ways of expressing apologies (or lack thereof), accepting responsibility should probably be a baseline.
posted by sagc at 7:15 PM on October 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Another thing to think about might be whether there's a distinction between an apology and acknowledging responsibility in his mind. You say that he doesn't do either, though, and that doesn't sound good to me - regardless of your different ways of expressing apologies (or lack thereof), accepting responsibility should probably be a baseline.
posted by sagc at 7:15 PM on October 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry to be not answering the question you asked, but I really get the sense that the bigger question here is why he's not apologizing for contributing to something so awful. That doesn't have any idea to do with how much you apologize or over-apologize. Again, sorry to answer a different question, but it's totally okay to just be pissed at him and not frame it in relation to your own apology habits.
I'm so sorry all of this is happening. I was robbed once and it messed me up for a while.
posted by mermaidcafe at 7:18 PM on October 2, 2018 [16 favorites]
I'm so sorry all of this is happening. I was robbed once and it messed me up for a while.
posted by mermaidcafe at 7:18 PM on October 2, 2018 [16 favorites]
Hunh. Personally, I think there are both practical and philosophical reasons for not bothering to think about moral fault in many everyday circumstances, but at a minimum, a couple of things would bug me in a partner never apologizing over ordinary (i.e. non-abusive) interpersonal upsets: the lack of consideration shown by not acknowledging my concerns and the failure to signal that different options/behaviors/outcomes would be weighted more strongly in the future. If those things could still happen without technically using the word sorry, I dunno--I think I'd still have questions--but for sure some sort of communication would mean a lot to me.
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:18 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:18 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know people like this. They berate others and never apologize, while extracting apologies from everyone else. It comes down to a power dynamic. They like to maintain an aura of infallibility. These people are usually emotionally immature. They are uncomfortable with their emotions, so they shut down rather than dealing with them—like a grown-up child. There is a metaphorical child rocking, head in knees, within them, trying to process their emotions. Their coping mechanism is ignorance. Dealing with parents like this is especially challenging. Read “The Adult Children if Emotionally Immature Parents.” An enlightening book.
posted by metasunday at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by metasunday at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Nope, I'm gonna say he's being an asshole. Doesn't matter if he doesn't expect apologies from you. Apologizing for causing another harm is the norm. Often the person violating social norms will justify it by saying it would be fine with them if you did so too. This is 100% bullshit and should be recognized as such.
"Advice, resources, personal stories welcome." I'm ending my marriage of several decades in large part because of my husband's total inability to apologize or admit even the tiniest bit of fault. This is not the kind of thing that gets easier to live with over time.
posted by HotToddy at 7:20 PM on October 2, 2018 [44 favorites]
"Advice, resources, personal stories welcome." I'm ending my marriage of several decades in large part because of my husband's total inability to apologize or admit even the tiniest bit of fault. This is not the kind of thing that gets easier to live with over time.
posted by HotToddy at 7:20 PM on October 2, 2018 [44 favorites]
My father never apologized--well I heard him apologize to pets sometimes--and my mother apologizes just to try to smooth over rough situations. I think the gender divide usually works that way.
posted by mermaidcafe at 7:20 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by mermaidcafe at 7:20 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Can you believe him when he says he accepts an apology? That means you don't keep apologizing or trying to make up for it.
Can he believe and hear you if you let him know you'd like an apology? And can he believe and hear you if you request something to affirm that the apology is accepted (like a hug or a phrase you agree on)? That would look like him honoring you by offering those two things.
You may both need to do things just on the basis of the other one asking for it, trusting that the other knows what they need and will ask for it.
posted by ramenopres at 7:23 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Can he believe and hear you if you let him know you'd like an apology? And can he believe and hear you if you request something to affirm that the apology is accepted (like a hug or a phrase you agree on)? That would look like him honoring you by offering those two things.
You may both need to do things just on the basis of the other one asking for it, trusting that the other knows what they need and will ask for it.
posted by ramenopres at 7:23 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I rarely expect an apology for anything other than a major issue. I have learned to apologize for leaving the door unlocked in situations like you described, but, to be honest, I am not sure how sincere they are.
Would you prefer your partner gave a perfunctory apology that may not have been sincere or no apology? I think you can convince him to say the words I am sorry if it helps by telling him it would mean a lot to you, but how sincere it would be is in question.
If he does apologize, do you accept it and move on, or do you continue to talk about it and maybe harbor some ongoing ill feelings? I get frustrated when I acknowledge my error, apologize and it is not good enough.
posted by AugustWest at 7:27 PM on October 2, 2018
Would you prefer your partner gave a perfunctory apology that may not have been sincere or no apology? I think you can convince him to say the words I am sorry if it helps by telling him it would mean a lot to you, but how sincere it would be is in question.
If he does apologize, do you accept it and move on, or do you continue to talk about it and maybe harbor some ongoing ill feelings? I get frustrated when I acknowledge my error, apologize and it is not good enough.
posted by AugustWest at 7:27 PM on October 2, 2018
I mean, there's a happy medium in between over-apologizing and going on and on and prostrating yourself (which IS annoying in part because it eventually puts the emotional labor on the apologee to reassure the apologizer, and the apologizer becomes the focus), and NEVER apologizing. Like...does he apologize if he steps on your foot and hurts you? Does he apologize if he accidentally dings your car? Does he apologize if he forgets to bring you the ice cream from the store that you specifically asked him to get? Does he apologize if he hurts your feelings? I assume by your question that the answer is no -- and that's not okay, either. Of course you don't have to swallow your pride and just accept that this dude will never say he's sorry -- sometimes an apology is required and not apologizing EVER is really rude. (Does he at least say things like, "wow, I made a huge mistake!" or is not apologizing part of a pattern where he cannot admit being wrong?)
I feel like maybe you two need to talk about how to meet in the middle. He can learn the habit of saying "I'm sorry" when he does something wrong, and you can learn how to make a succinct and sincere apology and then leave it.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:29 PM on October 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I feel like maybe you two need to talk about how to meet in the middle. He can learn the habit of saying "I'm sorry" when he does something wrong, and you can learn how to make a succinct and sincere apology and then leave it.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:29 PM on October 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m willing to create a better and more accommodating framework for us - preferably one where we both learn something but I’ll be resigned if just me has to swallow my pride here.
This is raising all kinds of red flags for me. This is not how a good relationship works, or a good partnership. You are willing to do things to create a more accommodating framework, but what is he doing? Calling you names. You deserve way better. If nothing else, your communication and interaction styles don't sound compatible, but this really doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 7:32 PM on October 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
This is raising all kinds of red flags for me. This is not how a good relationship works, or a good partnership. You are willing to do things to create a more accommodating framework, but what is he doing? Calling you names. You deserve way better. If nothing else, your communication and interaction styles don't sound compatible, but this really doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 7:32 PM on October 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
Apologizing for leaving the doors unlocked seems normal, but not apologizing for it seems equally normal to me. Why do you want him to apologize? To show that he understands he made a mistake? To show that he understands he should try not to do it again? To show that he understands the impact it had on you and feels bad about that? If you really believed he was a decent, responsible person, wouldn't you simply assume all those things were true? Do you think it's possible that he doesn't realize he made a mistake or that he doesn't feel it was an important mistake? Do you feel like he doesn't understand or care how upset you are about the incident?
Would you expect him to apologize if he accidentally dropped a glass and broke it? If he slipped on the stairs and broke his leg and that meant you had to cancel a trip you had planned? (Are those things you would apologize for? If so, maybe you're right about being an over-apologizer.) People inevitably have accidents and make mistakes and if you care about them you generally want them not to feel guilty and upset about those things. Insisting (or expecting) they apologize is sort of the opposite of that.
To me, the point of an apology is to let the other person know that you take responsibility for what happened, that you either didn't mean to do it or now regret doing it, and that you feel bad about the impact on them. I think there are plenty of situations where none of that is in doubt and so there's little point in apologizing. Breaking a glass, for instance. You drop it, you say, "Damn it!" and then you get the broom and sweep up the glass and if you're in a normal healthy relationship you assume the other person realizes you didn't mean to drop it and wish it hadn't broken and doesn't want you to get upset about it. I wouldn't be happy living with someone who expected me to apologize for breaking a glass. (If I knew that particular glass was special to my partner, I would apologize, though. I would want to let them know I understood how bad they must feel and cared about their feelings.)
To me, leaving the door unlocked is very much like accidentally dropping a glass. Of course he didn't mean to do it and wishes it hadn't happened. And it's his house, too, so he was as affected by it as you were. Does he really need to say out loud that he did something wrong and wishes it hadn't happened? Why?
posted by Redstart at 7:39 PM on October 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Would you expect him to apologize if he accidentally dropped a glass and broke it? If he slipped on the stairs and broke his leg and that meant you had to cancel a trip you had planned? (Are those things you would apologize for? If so, maybe you're right about being an over-apologizer.) People inevitably have accidents and make mistakes and if you care about them you generally want them not to feel guilty and upset about those things. Insisting (or expecting) they apologize is sort of the opposite of that.
To me, the point of an apology is to let the other person know that you take responsibility for what happened, that you either didn't mean to do it or now regret doing it, and that you feel bad about the impact on them. I think there are plenty of situations where none of that is in doubt and so there's little point in apologizing. Breaking a glass, for instance. You drop it, you say, "Damn it!" and then you get the broom and sweep up the glass and if you're in a normal healthy relationship you assume the other person realizes you didn't mean to drop it and wish it hadn't broken and doesn't want you to get upset about it. I wouldn't be happy living with someone who expected me to apologize for breaking a glass. (If I knew that particular glass was special to my partner, I would apologize, though. I would want to let them know I understood how bad they must feel and cared about their feelings.)
To me, leaving the door unlocked is very much like accidentally dropping a glass. Of course he didn't mean to do it and wishes it hadn't happened. And it's his house, too, so he was as affected by it as you were. Does he really need to say out loud that he did something wrong and wishes it hadn't happened? Why?
posted by Redstart at 7:39 PM on October 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
I had a partner who never apologized or took responsibility for anything (somehow everything was my fault). I managed to extract a few apologies from him and quickly realized how worthless an insincere apology is. I am grateful he is no longer my partner.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 7:46 PM on October 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by bighappyhairydog at 7:46 PM on October 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
So--- There can be many reasons for this, but it can be a real red flag and a pointer to Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People with this disorder never apologize or take responsibility for things and will often gaslight it to make it seem like it's your fault. Of course there are also many other traits that come with the disorder, not just that one. You don't give much detail about him so this is just a shot in the dark suggestion in case you haven't thought about it. It usually goes undiagnosed in people and they are emotional vampires and all you can really do is break up with them and cut them out of your life. I've known two people in my life that were NPD and they are terrible energy vampires. There is no cure so even a professional will tell the partner in such cases to just save themselves and leave.
NPD is the worst case scenerio here. Best case is that your partner is just a d-bag.
posted by fantasticness at 8:41 PM on October 2, 2018
NPD is the worst case scenerio here. Best case is that your partner is just a d-bag.
posted by fantasticness at 8:41 PM on October 2, 2018
Best answer: Apologies are vastly under-rated in my opinion. Apologies demonstrate that you value and care for the person to whom you are apologizing when your actions warrant one. Leaving the door unlocked, which caused the theft of your belongings, begs for an apology. Accidents happen, but expressing regret for contributing to the harm caused is what decent human beings do. I found this thread on apologies interesting— you might to!
posted by murrey at 8:42 PM on October 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by murrey at 8:42 PM on October 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
Ugh....I can’t figure out how to link to a previous thread. Search for an ask metafilter thread titled “ I’m sorry” — it gives some great insights into the value of apologies.
posted by murrey at 8:45 PM on October 2, 2018
posted by murrey at 8:45 PM on October 2, 2018
Best answer: My partner and I used to have this dynamic. There’s hope! We’re good now.
We had a lot of conversation about this, and how apologizing was difficult for him. He felt that “apologizing feels false” (to which I repeatedly said, “but it literally is what I need from you to feel acknowledged and loved”) and that he “doesn’t like to be asked to apologize, because it feels infantilizing” (to which I said, “I fucking hate asking. Please just apologize before it’s been so long that I start to assume you don’t care that I’m hurt.”) and yeah, well, he learned to apologize. I don’t think I changed too much. Early on I started to positively thank him when he did apologize promptly and easily. We also had a few conversations that I started, where I just generally acknowledged his growth as he helped me feel more trusting that he would apologize if he did something (even accidentally) that hurt. And he’s great about it now.
Early in our relationship we had talked a lot about how he was the younger brother, and part of surviving sibling torment was to use evasion to just avoid blame for anything. We also talked about how apologizing for an accident always made him feel worse because he didn’t feel he was to “blame.” It took him until his twenties to process that apologies aren’t about him, or about “blame” - they’re about acknowledging the other person’s suffering and the role you played. When he didn’t apologize for his role in stuff that hurt me, he was actively hurting our relationship.
I also think that apologizing for him required more vulnerability than he was willing to share at that time in his life. To apologize properly, you need to accept your own weakness. This was hard for him. He’s still the strongest man I know, and even stronger now that he can apologize when shit goes south, so that we can pick up the pieces together.
NB: these apology incidents were for mostly minor things, like being late, or forgetting something, or once leaving my car parked in a tow away zone accidentally. I believe any reasonable person would apologize for not locking your door, especially if it facilitated a burglary.
posted by samthemander at 8:49 PM on October 2, 2018 [33 favorites]
We had a lot of conversation about this, and how apologizing was difficult for him. He felt that “apologizing feels false” (to which I repeatedly said, “but it literally is what I need from you to feel acknowledged and loved”) and that he “doesn’t like to be asked to apologize, because it feels infantilizing” (to which I said, “I fucking hate asking. Please just apologize before it’s been so long that I start to assume you don’t care that I’m hurt.”) and yeah, well, he learned to apologize. I don’t think I changed too much. Early on I started to positively thank him when he did apologize promptly and easily. We also had a few conversations that I started, where I just generally acknowledged his growth as he helped me feel more trusting that he would apologize if he did something (even accidentally) that hurt. And he’s great about it now.
Early in our relationship we had talked a lot about how he was the younger brother, and part of surviving sibling torment was to use evasion to just avoid blame for anything. We also talked about how apologizing for an accident always made him feel worse because he didn’t feel he was to “blame.” It took him until his twenties to process that apologies aren’t about him, or about “blame” - they’re about acknowledging the other person’s suffering and the role you played. When he didn’t apologize for his role in stuff that hurt me, he was actively hurting our relationship.
I also think that apologizing for him required more vulnerability than he was willing to share at that time in his life. To apologize properly, you need to accept your own weakness. This was hard for him. He’s still the strongest man I know, and even stronger now that he can apologize when shit goes south, so that we can pick up the pieces together.
NB: these apology incidents were for mostly minor things, like being late, or forgetting something, or once leaving my car parked in a tow away zone accidentally. I believe any reasonable person would apologize for not locking your door, especially if it facilitated a burglary.
posted by samthemander at 8:49 PM on October 2, 2018 [33 favorites]
I honestly don't know how a person could get along in human society without ever apologizing. We all do stupid, thoughtless shit that hurts other people, and apologizing is the oil that keeps human relationships running more or less smoothly.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
I honestly can't remember the last time I said "sorry" and genuinely meant it in the sense of "I feel bad about the thing that I did". It has been so long that I occasionally wonder if I'm capable of doing it. I do sometimes use it to mean "I see how I could have done that better and will endeavor to do so in the future", but most of the time I just thank the person for bringing to my attention how I could do better or for their patience with me while I realize on my own how I could do better and then focus on actually doing better.
There have been people in my life who used "sorry" to mean that they felt bad about the thing that they did but never actually did the work of doing better. I don't want people to feel bad; I want them to do better. Someone who apologizes all the time is someone who either messes up all the time and uses apologies to cover for that or someone who reflexively apologizes for things that don't require apologies.
Your boyfriend left the back door unlocked. He could have done better, but at the same time I'm not sure why regret or taking responsibility for the break-in is his fault. With most other crimes MetaFilter is a place where we assign responsibility entirely to the perpetrator; I don't see this situation as being particularly different.
I don't see either of you as being in the moral wrong here, but you might just have different needs and you definitely have different communication styles. That's something that both of you can work on as a couple if you're both willing to work towards it.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:51 PM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
There have been people in my life who used "sorry" to mean that they felt bad about the thing that they did but never actually did the work of doing better. I don't want people to feel bad; I want them to do better. Someone who apologizes all the time is someone who either messes up all the time and uses apologies to cover for that or someone who reflexively apologizes for things that don't require apologies.
Your boyfriend left the back door unlocked. He could have done better, but at the same time I'm not sure why regret or taking responsibility for the break-in is his fault. With most other crimes MetaFilter is a place where we assign responsibility entirely to the perpetrator; I don't see this situation as being particularly different.
I don't see either of you as being in the moral wrong here, but you might just have different needs and you definitely have different communication styles. That's something that both of you can work on as a couple if you're both willing to work towards it.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:51 PM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he apologized, then he would have to admit his was wrong. Does he ever admit he was wrong?
posted by Toddles at 10:52 PM on October 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 10:52 PM on October 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Parasite Unseen - I get your point logically. However I would struggle with that response from a friend or intimate partner. Call me crazy or illogical, but I do believe that certain words/ideas have weight beyond their original scope. For example, the phrase “I love you” has a literal meaning of affection and support, but carries a lot of emotional weight and implies deep connection, and a special relationship. “I’m sorry” has a surface meaning of regret for a mistake, but it can also carry an emotional meaning of acknowledgement of someone else’s suffering. I mean, both phrases can be used in ways that ring false, and I don’t think there’s any emotional weight expressed if someone accidentally bumps into your shopping cart and apologizes. But for me, when my partner does some dumbass thing and I’m mad/hurt/disrupted, I emotionally feel better/safer/acknowledged when he says he’s sorry. The emotional impact of the apology is separate from the logic of it - I logically already know he loves me and didn’t mean to hurt me, and he shows me through words and actions that he will Do Better next time. So yeah, I’m not saying apologies are magic, but our culture has taught me to really appreciate/feel the emotional impact of an apology.
(Obligatory note - I keep saying my partner is the derp in these scenarios, so let me clarify that I also perpetrate my fair share of dumbass decisions, and I also work at apologizing in a way that fulfills HIS emotional needs.)
posted by samthemander at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
(Obligatory note - I keep saying my partner is the derp in these scenarios, so let me clarify that I also perpetrate my fair share of dumbass decisions, and I also work at apologizing in a way that fulfills HIS emotional needs.)
posted by samthemander at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
This is what I call a "courtesy apology," when someone just has to acknowledge that they made you feel bad without necessarily admitting they are in the wrong.
"Sorry I'm late, but the bus broke down/I couldn't find my keys/was waiting for my phone to charge" does a lot to smooth a situation. It's just a social nicety, and I fear it may well be gendered.
My ex sounds a lot like your partner -- he saw any kind of apology as admitting guilt and being caught out as the bad guy. It's one of the many reasons he is my ex now.
posted by vickyverky at 2:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
"Sorry I'm late, but the bus broke down/I couldn't find my keys/was waiting for my phone to charge" does a lot to smooth a situation. It's just a social nicety, and I fear it may well be gendered.
My ex sounds a lot like your partner -- he saw any kind of apology as admitting guilt and being caught out as the bad guy. It's one of the many reasons he is my ex now.
posted by vickyverky at 2:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m willing to create a better and more accommodating framework for us - preferably one where we both learn something but I’ll be resigned if just me has to swallow my pride here.
You could pretty much file this under 'dictionary definition of emotional labour'. Both options seem to require you to do all the work/absorb all the pain here.
I'd agree with most posters above that it sounds like he's the one who's behaviour is out of order wrt the basic norms of human consideration. So he should be contributing at least half of the effort towards sorting this out. You shouldn't have to exhaust yourself doing it single-handed.
posted by penguin pie at 4:39 AM on October 3, 2018 [16 favorites]
You could pretty much file this under 'dictionary definition of emotional labour'. Both options seem to require you to do all the work/absorb all the pain here.
I'd agree with most posters above that it sounds like he's the one who's behaviour is out of order wrt the basic norms of human consideration. So he should be contributing at least half of the effort towards sorting this out. You shouldn't have to exhaust yourself doing it single-handed.
posted by penguin pie at 4:39 AM on October 3, 2018 [16 favorites]
I feel like this is one of those questions where the responses would be very different if the genders in the question were reversed. If a man were complaining that his female partner never apologized and gave the specific example of not apologizing for accidentally leaving the door unlocked, I think a lot of people would see it as domineering and infantilizing for him to try to make her admit that she had made a mistake and promise never to do it again. (As if she were a child. As if he couldn't be sure she took the whole thing seriously and realized she had messed up.) I think people would be pointing out that he was expecting her to do the emotional labor of comforting him for his distress while he ignored any distress she might be feeling, both about the break-in and about the fact that her mistake had caused it.
posted by Redstart at 5:31 AM on October 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 5:31 AM on October 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would tell anybody who said that their partner had no regard for the fact that they left the door unlocked and got their house robbed that something was weird about that scenario. The issue is not that he didn't literally say the words I'm sorry.
The fact that one person seems to be doing all the accommodating and another person seems to be completely disregarding their space or feelings - and calling names - is the issue. Gender aside, it sounds like there is bad communication and some fundamental disconnection that makes the relationship unhealthy and untenable.
posted by sockermom at 5:42 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
The fact that one person seems to be doing all the accommodating and another person seems to be completely disregarding their space or feelings - and calling names - is the issue. Gender aside, it sounds like there is bad communication and some fundamental disconnection that makes the relationship unhealthy and untenable.
posted by sockermom at 5:42 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for so many thoughtful replies. This has given me a new vocabulary to think about what apologies mean to both of us. The comments about some people equating apologies with blame and shame really resonated - my sense is that’s how my partner feels, on top of also not feeling the need to apologize sincerely for things that were genuine mistakes. I think what’s missing for both of us is a better way to acknowledge something bad happened, it had impact, we may need to do something different in the future, and we won’t want the other to feel badly. Apologies for me are a sort of shorthand for that but the discussions don’t need to go that way. Anyway, thanks!
posted by xaire at 5:59 AM on October 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by xaire at 5:59 AM on October 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe this is coming from me being Canadian, but I cannot apologize enough. It's not forced. It's always sincere (I don't give insincere apologies) and it feels like salve on a wound or a bridge across a gulf. I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who doesn't appreciate the social value of an apology, no matter how small.
it usually results in my partner accusing me of martyr-like behavior
Wow. Drop this gaslighter. The act of apologizing is not manipulative in the way that he thinks, and the fact that his reading is immature and ungenerous is hugely offputting.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:02 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
it usually results in my partner accusing me of martyr-like behavior
Wow. Drop this gaslighter. The act of apologizing is not manipulative in the way that he thinks, and the fact that his reading is immature and ungenerous is hugely offputting.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:02 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
Does he really need to say out loud that he did something wrong and wishes it hadn't happened? Why?Because it's what people do to signal they understand what's happened, acknowledge the mistake, and that they value the other person.
posted by uberchet at 6:33 AM on October 3, 2018 [27 favorites]
Is this person otherwise kind and considerate of your feelings?
Because I have to tell you, what you're describing here doesn't sound like a kind, considerate person. He sounds mean, unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions, and emotionally aggressive.
I've known people who were over-apologizers, and it IS annoying, and if you're doing that, it's fair for you to think about that and adjust. So he may have a point about your behavior, we have no way of telling. But separately, I just can't imagine someone reasonable not acknowledging their part in a significant hit to your well being like a burglary, even if it was a "kinda" one like "aw crap, the one time I forget to lock the door, wouldntchaknowit. I'm sorry they got your stuff."
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:15 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Because I have to tell you, what you're describing here doesn't sound like a kind, considerate person. He sounds mean, unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions, and emotionally aggressive.
I've known people who were over-apologizers, and it IS annoying, and if you're doing that, it's fair for you to think about that and adjust. So he may have a point about your behavior, we have no way of telling. But separately, I just can't imagine someone reasonable not acknowledging their part in a significant hit to your well being like a burglary, even if it was a "kinda" one like "aw crap, the one time I forget to lock the door, wouldntchaknowit. I'm sorry they got your stuff."
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:15 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I want an apology as acknowledgement that the person hurt me or otherwise fucked up in a way that caused me inconvenience and damage. Intent is not magic. No one means to leave their house unlocked so it gets broken into. And yet that was the outcome, so the responsibility should be acknowledged. This does not require wearing a hair shirt.
By the way, who dealt with the aftermath - police report, cleanup, calling insurance company, replacement of stolen or damaged items?
posted by rtha at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [14 favorites]
By the way, who dealt with the aftermath - police report, cleanup, calling insurance company, replacement of stolen or damaged items?
posted by rtha at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [14 favorites]
Oh my god. I can't stand this kind of deliberate churlishness. Part of society is that you apologise when you screw up or hurt someone.
Nobody likes to apologise. It's for the person recieving the apology.
People who dig their heels in and refuse to accept that it's valid and normal for social animals to want and need treatment in line with social convention which has been designed by their society to facilitate social relationships, are being straight up jerks. It's entitled nonsense.
There are legitimate reasons to challenge social conventions, but this is not one of those situations. This is not a noble stand against injustice or cruelty, this is some jerk refusing to apologise when he screws up.
We apologise to respect boundaries, acknowledge the effect of our actions on others, and facilitate greater intimacy. Refusing, particularly when it is 100% indisputable that you, personally, are actively at fault, is selfish and disrespectful.
And if he is actually incapable of feeling remorse I would GTFO. Remorse is important.
posted by windykites at 8:49 AM on October 3, 2018 [16 favorites]
Nobody likes to apologise. It's for the person recieving the apology.
People who dig their heels in and refuse to accept that it's valid and normal for social animals to want and need treatment in line with social convention which has been designed by their society to facilitate social relationships, are being straight up jerks. It's entitled nonsense.
There are legitimate reasons to challenge social conventions, but this is not one of those situations. This is not a noble stand against injustice or cruelty, this is some jerk refusing to apologise when he screws up.
We apologise to respect boundaries, acknowledge the effect of our actions on others, and facilitate greater intimacy. Refusing, particularly when it is 100% indisputable that you, personally, are actively at fault, is selfish and disrespectful.
And if he is actually incapable of feeling remorse I would GTFO. Remorse is important.
posted by windykites at 8:49 AM on October 3, 2018 [16 favorites]
It did not even remotely occur to him to express regret or mild responsibility. [...] preferably one where we both learn something but I’ll be resigned if just me has to swallow my pride here.
This made me raise my eyebrows. Being careless in a way that directly leads to the house being robbed isn't the kind of thing you just swallow your "pride" about. This isn't about pride, it's about a serious dangerous situation your partner caused, and that he seems to be conditioning you to ignore. Can you imagine saying that your partner accidentally fishtailed the car off the highway because he was texting rather than paying attention to the road and refuses to apologize or "express regret or mild responsibility" because obviously, he didn't mean to do it, but maybe you just have really different social standards about apologies so you're resigned to just swallowing your pride? It sounds like his pride is the problem here, not yours-- he is asking you to completely ignore dangerously irresponsible behavior with real consequences because he can't bear to lose face and express regret. This sounds like gaslighting, but it also just sounds like a dangerous situation to be in, full stop. Also, gently, the kind of detachment of saying that your partner putting you (and apparently a toddler?) at risk in this way is to think of him as "fascinating but bizarre" is worrying. Have there been any other dangerous things he has refused to apologize or accept responsibility for?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:51 AM on October 3, 2018 [19 favorites]
This made me raise my eyebrows. Being careless in a way that directly leads to the house being robbed isn't the kind of thing you just swallow your "pride" about. This isn't about pride, it's about a serious dangerous situation your partner caused, and that he seems to be conditioning you to ignore. Can you imagine saying that your partner accidentally fishtailed the car off the highway because he was texting rather than paying attention to the road and refuses to apologize or "express regret or mild responsibility" because obviously, he didn't mean to do it, but maybe you just have really different social standards about apologies so you're resigned to just swallowing your pride? It sounds like his pride is the problem here, not yours-- he is asking you to completely ignore dangerously irresponsible behavior with real consequences because he can't bear to lose face and express regret. This sounds like gaslighting, but it also just sounds like a dangerous situation to be in, full stop. Also, gently, the kind of detachment of saying that your partner putting you (and apparently a toddler?) at risk in this way is to think of him as "fascinating but bizarre" is worrying. Have there been any other dangerous things he has refused to apologize or accept responsibility for?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:51 AM on October 3, 2018 [19 favorites]
To add to your datapoints: there is a particular subset of culture where they believe that apologizing if it's not something you can guarantee you won't do again is insincere - that the actual apology is to just change your ways, and if you can't do it, then your apology would have been worthless anyway, and if you can, then that's the apology.
I...pretty much hate this dynamic, but it's one I've seen in more reserved cultures.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
I...pretty much hate this dynamic, but it's one I've seen in more reserved cultures.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
With most other crimes MetaFilter is a place where we assign responsibility entirely to the perpetrator; I don't see this situation as being particularly different.
This reaction sounds like “I’m not going to apologize because it’s not my fault someone broke in and I should be able to leave the door unlocked and I will do that whenever I want”. This is actually the attitude I would be afraid to find behind a lack of apology, and why it would be worth clarifying if he isn’t apologizing because he’s weird, or because he thinks it’s ok to leave the door unlocked and will keep doing so.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:17 PM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
This reaction sounds like “I’m not going to apologize because it’s not my fault someone broke in and I should be able to leave the door unlocked and I will do that whenever I want”. This is actually the attitude I would be afraid to find behind a lack of apology, and why it would be worth clarifying if he isn’t apologizing because he’s weird, or because he thinks it’s ok to leave the door unlocked and will keep doing so.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:17 PM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I honestly can't remember the last time I said "sorry" and genuinely meant it in the sense of "I feel bad about the thing that I did".
Anyone who can say this and actually mean it is either a saint or a sociopath.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:50 PM on October 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Anyone who can say this and actually mean it is either a saint or a sociopath.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:50 PM on October 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
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posted by eirias at 7:01 PM on October 2, 2018 [5 favorites]