Help me think about minimum standards for a relationship.
September 30, 2018 1:39 AM Subscribe
I was in a crappy marriage for so long that I think my expectations of how I should be treated are really low. I’ve now met someone who makes me really happy, but I realised the other day I am disproportionately happy that he does normal ‘good relationship’ things that actually should be a given or fundamental to any decent relationship. It made me realise that maybe I find him so incredible because I just don't expect that much. Help me think about what should be some of my minimum standards.
This is my first relationship since leaving my marriage of decades. New Guy is so lovely and makes me so happy. But I think a big part of it is because I'm idolising him when he does normal decent things. For instance, he likes talking to me and really listens. After years of being with someone who never, not even in the beginning, liked talking and didn’t really care that I loved and craved it, it makes me incredibly happy that New Guy is interested in what I have to say. With my husband, I always knew he wasn't a talker but for years I told myself I could give that up, that I could live without that kind of connection, even though I was always sad about it. New Guy likes to talk and asks questions and genuinely wants to know what I think and how I feel. And he remembers things I’ve told him. This is all new and exciting to me. But I think this kind of interest and consideration should actually be a minimum standard rather than something I find SO astounding and SO special.
I want to think about this because we’re about 6 months in and I am completely invested in him. I think he is amazing because he is thoughtful and caring and can communicate. We’ve had one fight and we resolved it in such a civilised manner that I actually enjoyed it. I enjoyed the process. It showed me how a fight can be talked through openly and kindly and that I didn’t have to be scared to voice my concerns. There was so much unhappiness I never spoke up about in my marriage because our fights usually disintegrated quickly into my husband shouting at me and/or storming off.
I think New Guy is so special that I too readily give up my own stuff for him, like I prioritise him over my friends and other commitments. Or I have, several times, rearranged my schedule to see him, not because he’s asked me to or its an emergency or anything, just because I feel like I don't want to miss an opportunity to see him. I can feel myself slipping away from the life I had before I met him, when I was an interesting independent woman with friends and hobbies. For a few years there, I lost my sense of self in my marriage. I don't want to lose myself, for a man, again.
What I do want to do is just re-centre myself. I’d like to see New Guy in a more objective way and learn that I am entitled to and deserve certain things so that I’m not so OHMYGODAMAZING when he remembers my birthday or dresses nice to see me. These are things I would give a partner with barely a thought so I don't know why I am so stunned and impressed when New Guy does these basic things for me.
I’m interested in thinking through what other things could be my minimum standards and I’d like to hear about yours to give me some ideas of what kinds of things to consider.
This is my first relationship since leaving my marriage of decades. New Guy is so lovely and makes me so happy. But I think a big part of it is because I'm idolising him when he does normal decent things. For instance, he likes talking to me and really listens. After years of being with someone who never, not even in the beginning, liked talking and didn’t really care that I loved and craved it, it makes me incredibly happy that New Guy is interested in what I have to say. With my husband, I always knew he wasn't a talker but for years I told myself I could give that up, that I could live without that kind of connection, even though I was always sad about it. New Guy likes to talk and asks questions and genuinely wants to know what I think and how I feel. And he remembers things I’ve told him. This is all new and exciting to me. But I think this kind of interest and consideration should actually be a minimum standard rather than something I find SO astounding and SO special.
I want to think about this because we’re about 6 months in and I am completely invested in him. I think he is amazing because he is thoughtful and caring and can communicate. We’ve had one fight and we resolved it in such a civilised manner that I actually enjoyed it. I enjoyed the process. It showed me how a fight can be talked through openly and kindly and that I didn’t have to be scared to voice my concerns. There was so much unhappiness I never spoke up about in my marriage because our fights usually disintegrated quickly into my husband shouting at me and/or storming off.
I think New Guy is so special that I too readily give up my own stuff for him, like I prioritise him over my friends and other commitments. Or I have, several times, rearranged my schedule to see him, not because he’s asked me to or its an emergency or anything, just because I feel like I don't want to miss an opportunity to see him. I can feel myself slipping away from the life I had before I met him, when I was an interesting independent woman with friends and hobbies. For a few years there, I lost my sense of self in my marriage. I don't want to lose myself, for a man, again.
What I do want to do is just re-centre myself. I’d like to see New Guy in a more objective way and learn that I am entitled to and deserve certain things so that I’m not so OHMYGODAMAZING when he remembers my birthday or dresses nice to see me. These are things I would give a partner with barely a thought so I don't know why I am so stunned and impressed when New Guy does these basic things for me.
I’m interested in thinking through what other things could be my minimum standards and I’d like to hear about yours to give me some ideas of what kinds of things to consider.
I'm a poly bi male, so grains of salt all round.
People who love each other tell each other that they do. "I love you" all the time for all kinds of reasons!
You should be getting offers of help with everything. "Can I take the plates and do the dishes?" "Do you need a ride to that eye appointment?" "We should talk through your feelings on this. (and then listens)"
It should be OK to talk about your feelings a lot. They should also talk about their feelings. They should be reacting with compassion and care to you all the time.
They should be checking in with you. Checking in during sex to make sure this is good for everyone. Checking in when you are having a tough time. Checking in for no reason at all, just to see how you are.
They should be good, giving, and game in the bedroom and everywhere.
A good partner wants to protect you but does not want to own you or control you.
You should be hanging with their friends and they should be hanging with yours. If some of their friends are difficult for you, say so.
Try out each other's favorite movies, books, hobbies, places, activities and everything. They don't have to like all your stuff, but they have to be willing to give it a go.
Don't forget, also, that this is supposed to be fun. Check in with yourself to see that you are both putting work in but also both enjoying each other.
Whoa. Sorry for the wall of text. Good luck and congratulations! I hope this works out.
posted by poe at 6:48 AM on September 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
People who love each other tell each other that they do. "I love you" all the time for all kinds of reasons!
You should be getting offers of help with everything. "Can I take the plates and do the dishes?" "Do you need a ride to that eye appointment?" "We should talk through your feelings on this. (and then listens)"
It should be OK to talk about your feelings a lot. They should also talk about their feelings. They should be reacting with compassion and care to you all the time.
They should be checking in with you. Checking in during sex to make sure this is good for everyone. Checking in when you are having a tough time. Checking in for no reason at all, just to see how you are.
They should be good, giving, and game in the bedroom and everywhere.
A good partner wants to protect you but does not want to own you or control you.
You should be hanging with their friends and they should be hanging with yours. If some of their friends are difficult for you, say so.
Try out each other's favorite movies, books, hobbies, places, activities and everything. They don't have to like all your stuff, but they have to be willing to give it a go.
Don't forget, also, that this is supposed to be fun. Check in with yourself to see that you are both putting work in but also both enjoying each other.
Whoa. Sorry for the wall of text. Good luck and congratulations! I hope this works out.
posted by poe at 6:48 AM on September 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
I've written about this before, here. I think there are seven important questions for any long-term relationship:
1. Do you feel a spark for your partner? In your mind, is your partner more special and unique than others?
2. Is your partner kind and honest and reliable?
3. Do you communicate well with your partner? If not, are you both willing to take specific steps to get better at it?
4. Does your partner assume your good faith? That is, does your partner treat ambiguous situations as if you were in fact acting kindly, honestly, and reliably?
5. When you don’t act kindly, honestly or reliably (because no one is perfect), does your partner forgive you after a short period of time?
6. Are you your best authentic self as a result of being with your partner?
7. Are your lives growing together? Do your long-term wishes coincide?
posted by ferdydurke at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2018 [17 favorites]
1. Do you feel a spark for your partner? In your mind, is your partner more special and unique than others?
2. Is your partner kind and honest and reliable?
3. Do you communicate well with your partner? If not, are you both willing to take specific steps to get better at it?
4. Does your partner assume your good faith? That is, does your partner treat ambiguous situations as if you were in fact acting kindly, honestly, and reliably?
5. When you don’t act kindly, honestly or reliably (because no one is perfect), does your partner forgive you after a short period of time?
6. Are you your best authentic self as a result of being with your partner?
7. Are your lives growing together? Do your long-term wishes coincide?
posted by ferdydurke at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2018 [17 favorites]
I think New Guy is so special that I too readily give up my own stuff for him, like I prioritise him over my friends and other commitments. Or I have, several times, rearranged my schedule to see him, not because he’s asked me to or its an emergency or anything, just because I feel like I don't want to miss an opportunity to see him. I can feel myself slipping away from the life I had before I met him, when I was an interesting independent woman with friends and hobbies. For a few years there, I lost my sense of self in my marriage. I don't want to lose myself, for a man, again.
It might be worth tackling this behaviorally -- rather than just working toward insight that New Guy maybe isn't as special as you're making him out to be (which may be a little hard, given how much you like him!), you could work on changing your behaviors and making sure you continue to do the things that are important to you that don't involve New Guy. If it were me, I'd focus on working toward continuing to do the non-New Guy things that were important to me, and especially on not pre-emptively rearranging my schedule for him (and I know that one very well! it's so easy to fall into the trap of wanting to be easy-breezy low-maintenance!). Even if my brain were telling me, "But it's not thaaaaaat big a deal to skip that class tonight..." or "Well, Jane will understand if I reschedule...." This would let me get back in the habit of being the person I wanted to be, as well as establish in the relationship that New Guy does not have control of all my scheduling. His reaction to not always being priority #1 may also prove instructive, in either good or bad ways.
posted by lazuli at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
It might be worth tackling this behaviorally -- rather than just working toward insight that New Guy maybe isn't as special as you're making him out to be (which may be a little hard, given how much you like him!), you could work on changing your behaviors and making sure you continue to do the things that are important to you that don't involve New Guy. If it were me, I'd focus on working toward continuing to do the non-New Guy things that were important to me, and especially on not pre-emptively rearranging my schedule for him (and I know that one very well! it's so easy to fall into the trap of wanting to be easy-breezy low-maintenance!). Even if my brain were telling me, "But it's not thaaaaaat big a deal to skip that class tonight..." or "Well, Jane will understand if I reschedule...." This would let me get back in the habit of being the person I wanted to be, as well as establish in the relationship that New Guy does not have control of all my scheduling. His reaction to not always being priority #1 may also prove instructive, in either good or bad ways.
posted by lazuli at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
...That is to say, a minimum standard for me would be that I don't give up my life for my partner, and that's within your own control, but it requires action rather than just insight.
posted by lazuli at 8:32 AM on September 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 8:32 AM on September 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
this kind of thing is frequently confusing because when people say such-and-such a thing is the bare minimum in relationships, it doesn't mean the bare minimum for a decent human being. it means the bare minimum for a decent human being who loves you. that is a very different thing. the bare minimum for a good person in love with you is actually objectively a lot, and really nice.
if you're in a serious relationship with a man who loves you, you could say you're entitled to have him show it and say it and behave accordingly. a man who loves you should be fascinated by you and hang on every word you say, give or take, let's say, a buffer zone of five words per day unhung-upon. just as if you grow a rosebush you're entitled to have it bloom real roses and not painted paper or even silk imitation flowers. you're not lucky and blessed just because your roses are real; they're supposed to be! but a rosebush is still a remarkable and wonderful thing to have, not everyone has one, and even if they did, nothing to take for granted.
you can be very happy to be with him and feel wonderful to have found a man you love who loves you back, without feeling grateful to him for being human and nice. the gratitude can be a sign of past abuse, distorted perception, low standards, can just feel (and be) degrading. but the happiness isn't.
the easiest way to measure how reasonable you are is to pay attention to whether he does for you about as much as you do for him, and whether you're both just as happy to give as to receive.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
if you're in a serious relationship with a man who loves you, you could say you're entitled to have him show it and say it and behave accordingly. a man who loves you should be fascinated by you and hang on every word you say, give or take, let's say, a buffer zone of five words per day unhung-upon. just as if you grow a rosebush you're entitled to have it bloom real roses and not painted paper or even silk imitation flowers. you're not lucky and blessed just because your roses are real; they're supposed to be! but a rosebush is still a remarkable and wonderful thing to have, not everyone has one, and even if they did, nothing to take for granted.
you can be very happy to be with him and feel wonderful to have found a man you love who loves you back, without feeling grateful to him for being human and nice. the gratitude can be a sign of past abuse, distorted perception, low standards, can just feel (and be) degrading. but the happiness isn't.
the easiest way to measure how reasonable you are is to pay attention to whether he does for you about as much as you do for him, and whether you're both just as happy to give as to receive.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well, I think you've identified at least one jumping-off point toward seeing whether this guy is worth going further with. What happens when you tell him that you really, really like him but that you're going to have to scale back your availability a little bit because there are some other parts of your life that you've been letting slide recently because you are just so very into him, and which you want to get back into again before it becomes too hard to pick them back up? Phrased like that, there's no way that a decent guy would be anything other than 100% understanding and supportive, both in the moment and also later when you have to sometimes turn down opportunities to spend time with him in favor of doing other stuff. If he's going to be your long-term partner, you're going to have to have a life outside of the relationship. The relationship can be the center around which the rest of your life revolves, but it can't be everything. If he's long-term-partner material, he'll be on board with that.
In general though I'd sort of caution against viewing relationship compatibility as a series of tests. The only test is whether you make each other feel good. It's not necessarily a great idea to be coming up with a list of standards and criteria that he has to meet or else he's not good enough—in my experience, human relationships just don't really work that way. They're much squishier than that. What matters is how you feel about yourself and your life with him in it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
In general though I'd sort of caution against viewing relationship compatibility as a series of tests. The only test is whether you make each other feel good. It's not necessarily a great idea to be coming up with a list of standards and criteria that he has to meet or else he's not good enough—in my experience, human relationships just don't really work that way. They're much squishier than that. What matters is how you feel about yourself and your life with him in it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
New Guy likes to talk and asks questions and genuinely wants to know what I think and how I feel. And he remembers things I’ve told him. This is all new and exciting to me. But I think this kind of interest and consideration should actually be a minimum standard rather than something I find SO astounding and SO special.
I have a similar history, and have thought about this same thing. Reading your post, though, I feel concerned you might not let yourself indulge the zippy butterflies of feeling that New Guy IS so special for the singular way he cares about you, listens to you, and remembers what you say. Yes, every partner should do these things, but you aren't having this experience with everyone, you're having it with this guy -- and it's feeling wonderful because these things ARE wonderful between people! If you didn't have the past baggage and weren't feeling you have to check yourself for accepting too little, I suspect, you'd allow yourself to be over the moon for the very ordinary things you list here. Yes, they are things you should expect from a man generally. AND yes, when you're falling in love, those very ordinary things become unique and super special and amazing not because no one else does them or you don't really deserve them, but because they are happening specifically between the two of you. An analogy: everyone has a body, but when lovers know each other's bodies they feel the other's body is the most amazing thing that ever fell to earth. Please don't let the experience of your unacceptable marriage made you swing so far into the other side of the pendulum that you have to be vigilant over feeling this is special. One thing to look for: is your guy also feeling YOU are so special for how you listen, talk, remember, and well, just how you are together? If so, I say give yourself permission to think each other are the most absolutely amazing people on the planet every time you say "hello" with a special smile. To me, being listened to is ordinary but it's much more important and special than someone buying me dozens of roses or taking a helicopter to Paris like some idea of "SPECIAL." You're talking about intimacy. It's fun!
posted by nantucket at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
I have a similar history, and have thought about this same thing. Reading your post, though, I feel concerned you might not let yourself indulge the zippy butterflies of feeling that New Guy IS so special for the singular way he cares about you, listens to you, and remembers what you say. Yes, every partner should do these things, but you aren't having this experience with everyone, you're having it with this guy -- and it's feeling wonderful because these things ARE wonderful between people! If you didn't have the past baggage and weren't feeling you have to check yourself for accepting too little, I suspect, you'd allow yourself to be over the moon for the very ordinary things you list here. Yes, they are things you should expect from a man generally. AND yes, when you're falling in love, those very ordinary things become unique and super special and amazing not because no one else does them or you don't really deserve them, but because they are happening specifically between the two of you. An analogy: everyone has a body, but when lovers know each other's bodies they feel the other's body is the most amazing thing that ever fell to earth. Please don't let the experience of your unacceptable marriage made you swing so far into the other side of the pendulum that you have to be vigilant over feeling this is special. One thing to look for: is your guy also feeling YOU are so special for how you listen, talk, remember, and well, just how you are together? If so, I say give yourself permission to think each other are the most absolutely amazing people on the planet every time you say "hello" with a special smile. To me, being listened to is ordinary but it's much more important and special than someone buying me dozens of roses or taking a helicopter to Paris like some idea of "SPECIAL." You're talking about intimacy. It's fun!
posted by nantucket at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
asks questions and genuinely wants to know what I think and how I feel. And he remembers things I’ve told him.
This is actually pretty rare in my experience with men. Feels good, doesn't it? Of course theoretically we're all entitled to be really listened to; but in fact, it's not so common, and it's ok for you to cherish that about him.
I think "are you your best self" with him - happy, confident, funny, clever, kind, generous -- is one of the biggest overarching questions. And for the nuts and bolts "does this relationship work" assessment, being able to have productive disagreements like you did that one time is really important.
It's not unusual to cocoon up with a great new relationship. Give yourself a break. Just be deliberate about making sure you're still making time for your other friendships. Hobbies... YMMV. In my experience these are generally not as important to quality of life as a great relationship and solid friendships are.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:19 AM on September 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is actually pretty rare in my experience with men. Feels good, doesn't it? Of course theoretically we're all entitled to be really listened to; but in fact, it's not so common, and it's ok for you to cherish that about him.
I think "are you your best self" with him - happy, confident, funny, clever, kind, generous -- is one of the biggest overarching questions. And for the nuts and bolts "does this relationship work" assessment, being able to have productive disagreements like you did that one time is really important.
It's not unusual to cocoon up with a great new relationship. Give yourself a break. Just be deliberate about making sure you're still making time for your other friendships. Hobbies... YMMV. In my experience these are generally not as important to quality of life as a great relationship and solid friendships are.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:19 AM on September 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Rather than feeling like you have to knock this guy down to just average, I think it is more fun to assume that he really is special and then ask yourself, how would it look like to be in a relationship where you could be fully yourself - the self you like best - who is an interesting independent woman with friends and hobbies.
You said you are in the habit of deny what you want in order to make the person happy. This sounds like a great relationship to test out this new, preferred way of being. It means pushing yourself to stay tuned into what you want and to make the choices that support the interesting, independent you, but if this guy is a keeper, he will be supporting and encouraging these choices (even if he is sometimes a little disappointed). The trick for you is not to cave just because he is a little disappointed (or you think he might be). Good relationship partners support each other in a kind of give and take. You want to see him sometimes giving by helping and sometime giving by giving you space you need. If when you can see something is really important to him, then it is your turn to give. But don't compromise a whole lot on your side just to avoid some small disappointment on his - that isn't the quality of relationship that you really want.
And have fun!!!!
posted by metahawk at 1:15 PM on September 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
You said you are in the habit of deny what you want in order to make the person happy. This sounds like a great relationship to test out this new, preferred way of being. It means pushing yourself to stay tuned into what you want and to make the choices that support the interesting, independent you, but if this guy is a keeper, he will be supporting and encouraging these choices (even if he is sometimes a little disappointed). The trick for you is not to cave just because he is a little disappointed (or you think he might be). Good relationship partners support each other in a kind of give and take. You want to see him sometimes giving by helping and sometime giving by giving you space you need. If when you can see something is really important to him, then it is your turn to give. But don't compromise a whole lot on your side just to avoid some small disappointment on his - that isn't the quality of relationship that you really want.
And have fun!!!!
posted by metahawk at 1:15 PM on September 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't think there is a definitive list of necessary behaviors (or perhaps I'm much lazier than the posters above). There is, rather, a constant litmus test: is this how I would want my loved ones to be treated? If so, thumbs up. That captures more or less all of the treatment that people deserve in good relationships. Do you want your friends' feelings respected? To receive apologies if someone upsets them? To be asked about their day and supported through difficulties? Yes, yes, yes. Etc.
But I really came in to say, don't dampen your enthusiasm for "basic good treatment!" It is sadly and surprisingly rare, and precious! You should be excited to be treated well, because it's no guarantee (which is different from saying one should ever put up with anything other than good treatment).
Finding balance between him and the rest of your life is a different question and process. Congratulations on leaving a poor relationships and finding what sounds like a good one.
posted by namesarehard at 1:43 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
But I really came in to say, don't dampen your enthusiasm for "basic good treatment!" It is sadly and surprisingly rare, and precious! You should be excited to be treated well, because it's no guarantee (which is different from saying one should ever put up with anything other than good treatment).
Finding balance between him and the rest of your life is a different question and process. Congratulations on leaving a poor relationships and finding what sounds like a good one.
posted by namesarehard at 1:43 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
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