Am I an antisocial roommate?
September 28, 2018 2:30 PM   Subscribe

I enjoy staying in my room, roommates don't like this. I feel like I'm breaking some kind of unwritten roommate code. Is it me that is being unreasonable? If so, how do I become a more social person to live with?

About 3 months ago I moved into an apartment with 2 other roommates, we're all around 30. When I am home, other than when making food or using the bathroom I am generally hanging out in my room.

A few times I have heard the roommates express that they are uncomfortable with/don't like the fact I spend a lot of time in my room.

I haven't really talked to them about it because I'm not sure if my behaviour is abnormal. I have googled and it seems like a lot of people agree that a roommate spending a lot of time in their room is a bad thing.

My use of the apartment is as follows:

First of all, I think I am a pretty good roommate in terms of being clean, not using other people's stuff, paying rent on time, etc.

When I'm in my room I generally leave the door wedged open slightly to show that I'm there and available, though I close it sometimes if I really want to be alone or if the room is super messy or something.

I do tend to be home a fair bit, but I also go out at least once a day, whether to work, meeting friends, running errands, going away travelling etc.

There is no living room, so the only real social area is the kitchen, and whenever I bump into one of the roommates I will obviously ask them how it's going and we will chat while we go about making food or whatnot. I like both roommates and enjoy chatting to them.

Hearing that my roommates don't like that I spend a lot of time in my room has sort of stressed me out by feeling like I'm a bad roommate or I'm making them uncomfortable.

Steps I have taken so far to be more sociable:

- try not to have my room door closed.
- occasionally sit in the kitchen with my laptop, rather than in my room, but this feels a bit forced and a lot of the time I will just be alone in there anyway.
- asked in the apartment whatsapp group if they wanted to go out for a drink (to be fair I only asked the one time...) but then again why does it have to be me that asks?

In conclusion, my question is a two-parter. Am I being unsociable? And if so, what steps can I take to be more social and a better roommate?
posted by iamsuper to Human Relations (29 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
Unless you're going into it with people you already know as friends, when you rent a place with roommates, you're doing so as a business arrangement. And I don't think "being sociable" is a reasonable expectation in this kind of business arrangement. I've had roommates who kept completely to themselves, and roommates who really wanted to be buddies. It was the latter who I found more troublesome.

It sounds like you are reserved, but so what?
posted by adamrice at 2:39 PM on September 28, 2018 [30 favorites]

i do not think you are being unsociable or in any way a bad roommate! you are adhering to the Roommate Code to which i myself adhere and to which i prefer my roommate(s) adhere. your behaviour is perfectly normal and fine and there is no need to change it and your roommates are the ones being weird.

did your roommates know each other / have a pre-existing friendship before becoming roommates? the only times i've had the kind of heavy socialising you're describing here is in a we-were-already-friends living scenario. it's kind of weird for them to hold you to this level of socialising.
posted by halation at 2:41 PM on September 28, 2018 [2 favorites]

This is not abnormal! There's a huge difference between a roommate who happens to spend a lot of time in their room and one who actively avoids others and is brusque or rude when having to interact with roommates. I'm totally someone who likes to spend a lot of time in my room and what you've written here pretty much describes me. This is more of a general personality issue between roommates and I encourage you to have a light-hearted conversation with them about it. You can say that it's easier to use your computer without distractions or you like the quiet to recharge from work or you prefer to sit on your bed to read/listen to music/play games rather than the couch - all completely valid things. There are plenty of people who only use their bedrooms for sleeping, getting dressed, or for when they need private time so they don't understand why someone wants to stay in their room for other reasons. Clear the air with a friendly conversation. Let them know that you are absolutely approachable and they should never feel weird about knocking on the door to ask a question, etc.

You don't say how well you know your roommates (and how well they know each other). Maybe take a bit of time on occasion to actually hang out with them so that they actually do know you and that you're less mysterious to them.
posted by acidnova at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2018 [2 favorites]

I've had scores of flatmates over the years, some spend their home time in their room, others in the social areas. There is no normal, only what you want to do, and what your flatmates want to do. Ideally everyone expresses at the time of moving in together roughly how they prefer to play it, either explicitly, or by implication ("Is it quite a sociable flat?").

Where different flatmates behave differently, the only question really is whether anyone involved has a problem with that difference. Or whether you care that they have a problem with your preference. To be honest in your situation I would just say "I have a busy time at work, I like my own space in the evenings" and continue to be cordial when we see each other, and if they don't like it that's their own problem to deal with. And maybe check things out a little more thoroughly ahead of time when moving in to my next flat (or when taking in new flatmates, depending where in the rotation you were).
posted by penguin pie at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2018 [2 favorites]

I can understand exactly where you're coming from - I'm an introvert and enjoy time by myself. It's okay to be an introvert - and that isn't the same as being anti-social. But I can see the situation possibly backfiring on you if your two roommates are - or become - friends, as this can change the dynamic in the apartment.

How about suggesting you all have a meal together once a week - either one that you cook together, or have delivered or go out to a restaurant. Then you'll have a chance to get to know one another better, within a defined social parameter.
posted by essexjan at 2:46 PM on September 28, 2018 [24 favorites]

This seems like different roommate styles/expectations to me. I'm like you, I'll spend most of my time in my room with the door open, and I've never had roommates who had a problem with that, because they did the same thing.

Some people tend to get annoyed if you're constantly at home, i.e., you work at home, you don't really leave for very long, etc., because a lot of people want at least some time where they've got the place to themselves.

Maybe they're more extroverted people who think you being in your room is an antisocial gesture. If so, just find some way to express that you're a homebody who likes to relax or chill after work or whatever, or to tell them generally what you're doing in there (i.e., "oh, I just zone out and watch some TV on my laptop after work!" or "I'm a big reader, I'm reading [insert book here] right now!"). Maybe try leaving your door wide open? I usually do when I'm at home, if only for the cross breeze and to feel less like I'm deliberately isolating myself. That can make a surprisingly big difference in their perception of your sociability.

If you actually do want to be more sociable, then sure, set up a weekly/biweekly dinner or something.
posted by yasaman at 2:51 PM on September 28, 2018 [6 favorites]

So I think part of what's going on here is that your roommates don't really know you well. Not just because you weren't already friends, but because if they're social, extroverted people, to live with someone for three months and still feel like you don't know them is off-putting: for some people (and I'm one of them), to share the intimacy of one's private living space with a stranger who seemingly strives to remain a stranger is jarring. Especially because, in a roommate situation, you're never truly alone: there's always a roommate who's probably (inadvertently and non-creepily, at least hopefully!) listening to me fart, or have sex, or talk on the phone to my mom. And for some people, comfortably sharing that kind of small-space intimacy demands building trust between one another that goes beyond "I know this person won't steal my laundry quarters" and nears something more fundamental.

I don't have any great solutions, but I would make an effort to hang out with them in chill, time-delimited ways. Like, "hey, I'm going to grab a coffee [at X shop two blocks away], wanna come?" or "I'm going to the grocery store, wanna come?" etc. Don't just make maybe-awkward chitchat in the kitchen; actually hang out together and have experiences together, even if they're really small ones.
posted by tapir-whorf at 2:59 PM on September 28, 2018 [35 favorites]

You're not being unreasonable and they're not being (altogether) unreasonable. People look for different things in roommate relationships and unfortunately it's hard to tell what you or the other person is looking for until you get there. It's tough not having a living room, too.

After a while it could be that both sides move a little closer to the middle here. If it isn't, hey, it's just mismatched expectations, and that happens sometimes. At least you're good bare-minimum roommates; it could be worse.
posted by Polycarp at 3:19 PM on September 28, 2018 [3 favorites]

Plus (to continue with my earlier comment), when I've had roommates who spent all their time in their room with the door cracked, especially if their room was right next to public space, when other housemates hung out in the living room talking or watching movies or doing whatever friendly folks do, and the roommate with the door cracked never interacted with us, it made the rest of us feel surveilled.

I don't want it to sound like I'm blaming you for this -- it seems like you just have different expectations of what a roommate situation "should" be like than I do. But one thing I've noticed is that extroverts and introverts both give and need different types of social cues. For example, if your door is cracked and you overhear casual conversation between your other roomies that you have something to say about (and that's clearly appropriate for you to butt in on), say it!
posted by tapir-whorf at 3:26 PM on September 28, 2018 [9 favorites]

I haven't really talked to them about it because I'm not sure if my behaviour is abnormal.

Honestly, every apartment has a different dynamic. I also spent a year or so as the recluse roommate in a party apartment, where my roommates liked to use the living room/kitchen as a social space and I preferred to be in my room. My recommendation is to try to find roommates who prefer to keep to themselves once your lease is up, since it will be a better fit for you. Postgraduate/law students are often good options!
posted by capricorn at 3:27 PM on September 28, 2018 [4 favorites]

I can't say that I endorse this step because I am a relatively content introvert, but having been in this situation before, with minimal shared living space, your roommates may be expecting to occasionally hang out in each others' bedrooms. It's up to you whether you feel comfortable with that. You can try leaving your door wide open occasionally or if you see THEIR doors open, pop your head in and say hi.
posted by acidic at 3:28 PM on September 28, 2018 [2 favorites]

I think one thing I’ve noticed about roommate expectations that has changed a lot over the last twenty years is kind of the sense of how economic necessities play into it? Like, when having roommates was just a thing you expected to be doing as a very short term thing, I feel like it was more acceptable to be somewhat brusque or more “I’m just here to sleep”, because the sense of it was always “I’m having roommates for X period and then I’m out” where X period was “going to school” or “trying to make it in the city.”

Now folks are having to have roommates for more years, and what I’m seeing is this kind of forced socializing as folks at least try to tell themselves they are rooming together because everyone is just so gosh darned fun! Nothing to do with economics, everyone LIKES this! And in that expectation, one person hiding out where they can have precious privacy kind of breaks the narrative and the suspension of disbelief.
posted by corb at 3:32 PM on September 28, 2018 [9 favorites]

Am I being unsociable? And if so, what steps can I take to be more social and a better roommate?

Well I think there are a few parts to this. Is staying in your room anti-social? I feel like it sort of is just in a strictly definitional way. You're not being sociable. Second question is more: does everyone have jobs? Because the issue might be more not just that you're in your room the whole time (which, I agree with others, might be fine or not fine depending on what the expectations are) but that you are home the whole time or not not-home on a regular basis and maybe they feel like you're always there?

I think being in the kitchen occasionally with laptop is a good idea. And yeah maybe they presume people will be in each other's rooms watching Netflix or whatever (especially if there is no living room) and so they assumed there would be more cross-pollination of spaces. So I guess I'd go back to the situation... did you all move in at the same time? Did you all choose each other or was this some sort of "I rented a room in a house and they also rented rooms in that house" sort of thing? Did you all talk about it? COuld you talk about it now?
posted by jessamyn at 3:38 PM on September 28, 2018 [1 favorite]

You wanting to spend most of your time at home in your room is completely valid and something a lot of roommates would prefer. I personally prefer a roommate who is moderately social, so I can see where your roommates are coming from.

This is really an issue of compatibility. They probably should have made that expectation clear from the beginning to ensure they got a compatible roommate - but you also could have said something at the beginning too. Now you know for future roommate situations.

For this one, I think it's worthwhile to bend a bit. You can still default to being alone in your room, but maybe leave the door all the way open sometimes? Or suggest a weekly roommate dinner, something like that?

FWIW, I think tapir_whorf is on the money. It's one thing to have a roommate who's more of an introvert. But for some people (including myself), it just feels sort of unsettling to share living space with a silent stranger. I think if you can find ways to get to know them better, that will help a lot.
posted by lunasol at 3:55 PM on September 28, 2018 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Not to threadsit but to answer a few questions:

I am the new person that moved in and they are the existing roommates.

I think it's definitely a good idea to suggest doing things together like grabbing a coffee, making dinner, and so on, I will definitely try that. I think I had sort of assumed that as they were more extroverted than I, they would be the ones to suggest things like this, and because they haven't, it was because they didn't want to. I guess I won't know unless I ask!

I also feel like I gave the impression I am more reclusive than I actually am. I don't just sit in my room in silence, I do make efforts to talk and interact and hang out with them in their rooms.

My having the door cracked isn't like a way of secretly listening to their conversations or anything like that, it's more so that we can see each other and whenever a roommate walks past we'll generally have a little hey-how's-it-going what-are-your-plans-for-the-day exchange. If I hear that both roommates are there, and if appropriate, I usually jump at the chance to come out and chat and try and be more involved!

I think those that have mentioned that the issue may be that I am spending too much time in the apartment might be on to something - will definitely think about that.

Thanks for all your answers!
posted by iamsuper at 3:57 PM on September 28, 2018

Clearly there's a mismatch in expectation between you and your roommates. I think you can lose the question about who's right or wrong universally, and think about what will make the house a better place for everyone.

Speaking to the social side, you aren't being proactively anti-social, but you aren't socializing. Your methods of engagement are mainly passive -- putting yourself in the position to be socialized with, not reaching out, and even when you do reach out it's in the lowest-risk way -- WhatsApp -- versus going to someone in person. You want to avoid coming across as checking off a list, but rather show an interest in them as people. I'm somebody who prefers friendships among roommates and this is what I would find nice -- specifying that you don't have to do any of this if you don't want to:

- Express interest in my life and day
- Learn basic info about what's happening in my life, and ask about it from time to time ("Hey, did you ever get that promotion?" "What happened with [random thing]?") The progression from here is that, eventually, they will volunteer this information and start conversations because they've learned that you care to know
- Come to my room, see if I have a minute to chat, and invite a conversation to get to know each other better; if it's a bad time for me, we can then set up a different time, like coffee or another day that week. "Hey, I can't believe how fast 3 months has passed. but I realized we don't know each other all that well! I would love to catch up. Is now a good time?"
- Make invitations, in person, to casual things. Try to do it a day in advance or earlier in the day so people have time to plan
- Do little gestures, like bringing home baked goods or mentioning that you like to cook and finding out when we will be available for a delicious meal -- things that don't require us to engage but show you're thinking of us
- Bring up a question you're pondering and ask my opinion; openly show a bit of emotion, a bit of a struggle, something a level deeper than "How are you / good how are you / fine / cool / bye"
- If you decline one invitation from me, try to make alternate plans or specify that you want to hang out a different time
- Conspire with one of the roommates to do something for the other, like celebrate a promotion or birthday
- Come up with other house stuff, like shopping for decorations together or a monthly "everyone cleans at the same time and then drinks wine"
- Invite other people into the home to socialize, or invite us out with your existing friends; this can help us get to know you (and you us) in a different setting

As context, I was someone who in college would leave my dorm door open, wait for the extroverts to engage me, and sit there wondering why people weren't taking advantage of my availability. I began to have more friends when I started organizing things myself and also taking small ways to get involved with people. Some extroverts may need to know that you're the kind of introvert who wants to be engaged. Now that I'm more extroverted I notice that my friends and I still rotate between who reaches out to initiate things.

In the future, I'd bring this up with potential roommates--what does everyone consider an ideal social environment? Are roommates friends or just sharing the space?
posted by ramenopres at 4:11 PM on September 28, 2018 [4 favorites]

Speaking as an introvert, this question makes me annoyed with your roommates. I mean, excuse me? You live there and have the right to relax as you please, and if that is in your room with the door closed, then so be it. If nothing else, there are two of them and one of you, and they knew each other first. This almost inevitably makes for a skewed dynamic. If you had come in to rent with a friend of yours, and there were four of you total, I doubt you'd feel the need to ask this question.

Am I being unsociable?


And if so, what steps can I take to be more social and a better roommate?

You sound like a great roommate to me. It isn't your job to serve as entertainment for your roommates. As long as you are courteous and pay your share of the rent, and aren't destroying the place, you are doing fine.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 4:37 PM on September 28, 2018 [10 favorites]

I do tend to be home a fair bit, but I also go out at least once a day, whether to work, meeting friends, running errands, going away travelling etc.

When I lived in an apartment with a roommate, I spent a lot of time in my own room, and I preferred us each to keep our personal stuff in our own rooms mostly and only have shared decor and shared kitchen stuff in the shared space, etc. That all was fine, but the thing my roommate ultimately found a bit bothersome was that I also was introverted to the point that I didn't leave the apartment a ton, so I was always in my room and always there, or at least that's how it felt to them. So that might be a thing to consider: If you're there a lot and you're not interacting with them a lot, and they were already existing roommates/friends, I can see from my own experience where that might have led to a disjunct in expectations that makes them a bit uncomfortable.

So I would try 1. trying to interact with them more when you are there—or even just spending time in the shared space on your laptop or phone or whatever, and showing that you're open to interaction—then 2. also leaving the space more to be other places for a while periodically, even if that means changing your routines a bit and forcing that a little. It will probably be good for you and for them to have a little more space every day and then to also be together a bit more when you all are there together.
posted by limeonaire at 5:38 PM on September 28, 2018 [4 favorites]

I lived in a 2-bedroom 4-person room in grad school. My roommate stayed in his room ALL the time. To drive me out, he would make annoying noises, like getting a styrofoam cup and a top with a straw run through it, pouring tiny sips of soda in the cup and then slurping every drop out. Maximum slurping.

Rather than confront him about it, I actually spent most of that year in the library--sometimes until 3 am. All I can remember from grad school at this point is sitting in cinderblock-lined study carrels. I realized, at that point, I didn't need to live on campus, and moved to a different (less expensive) location.

Another odd thing about that situation was that one of the roommates (fortunately not mine) was the constant invitation of people to stay in the common area, and the live-in girlfriend. That was not fun.

I would say if you are not doing the above, you are doing pretty well. Like others have said, it's a business arrangement. They can like it or lump it.
posted by metasunday at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2018 [3 favorites]

I'm definitely an introvert, but I have had lots of roommates/housemates over the years, and have come to realize (as said upthread) that some people are uncomfortable living in close quarters with someone they don't really know. I know I've tended to hide away with my roommates, and often that created a strain. If I could go back, I would make more gestures at socializing. I think that goes a long way- you spend a little time actively getting to know them/being friendly (doesn't need to be a lot at all- initiate small talk when you see them, invite for coffee sometimes, etc) , and then when you go back to your own space they may feel better knowing you more and knowing that you are a friendly person. I think it's probably not knowing much about you that makes them a little uncomfortable.
posted by bearette at 6:17 PM on September 28, 2018 [3 favorites]

So the line about expressing discomfort about you spending so much time in your room resonated with me because I've been that housemate who was frustrated before.

As in, I shared a house with someone who was ALWAYS there whenever I left or got home. They always seemed to be on the couch or locked away in their room and I felt like I never, ever got a chance to just relax and have space to myself y'know to take my time in the bathroom and walk around in my undies if I wanted... I eventually said something and they seemed to understand and I'm thankful that they made an effort to go out occasionally and I felt less crowded.

So maybe that's something they are feeling right now? I'd encourage you to incorporate more outside time into your schedule and perhaps invite them along to trips for coffee, groceries, etc (as long as you're comfortable and keen).
posted by latch24 at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2018 [2 favorites]

A few times I have heard the roommates express that they are uncomfortable with/don't like the fact I spend a lot of time in my room.

What are they doing? Do they just sit at the kitchen table and hang out, or are they in each others bedrooms?

The apartment has no living room, and the only shared space besides the bathroom is the kitchen? So I'm guessing no comfy place to sit at all, like a sofa or stuffed chairs? Like...the only places to sit are at a kitchen table unless you're in your bedroom? In that case I would definitely be hanging out in my bedroom.
posted by the webmistress at 7:45 PM on September 28, 2018 [1 favorite]

As an extreme example and probably not your case, I had a exfriend was upset about their housemate doing that even though he came out and socialized quite a bit and never avoided it - it turns out that they just wanted a captive audience and a convenient "friend" and had a lot of unaddressed issues with loneliness. Pay them no mind - spending time in my room is a great joy to me. I also live in an apartment with no living room - when me and my housemate are both home, we just chat in the hallway or in her room. But we both are rarely home at the same time.

Just make sure to gesture at friendship and hang out and chat and share a few things about yourself to build rapport - it's comforting to get to know your housemates and it can help a lot for building a happy relationship, plus it's nice they want to get to know you.
posted by yueliang at 10:28 PM on September 28, 2018

While there's a whole range of how much socializing different people like to do as roommates, one other thing that could be the issue is that it's very common for people to like to have some time at home when no roommates are there. (Or if your two roommates want time with just the two of them that's ok too)

This sometimes gets approached in indirect ways because people don't really want to discuss things like why they want this time -- because it's usually private stuff that they don't want to talk about. I'll give some examples because that probably sounds really strange. Bathroom habits, masturbation, boiling reusable menstral products, making private phone calls, any number of things that they just don't want to actually come right out and say I need time to do X.

One thing that helps with that is letting your roommates know if you'll be out for a while, in advance if you can, and about what time you'll be back. If you don't ever really do this, consider how you could work it in. Even if your budget won't cover movies or anything like that you can check into free events or go spend some time at the library or a museum. Some coffee shops are ok with you spending a few hours on your laptop with one beverage purchase if you go at non peak hours.
posted by yohko at 12:05 AM on September 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

It's also possible that these specific roomates want a lot of socializing and you are just a bad match in this way. This doesn't mean you are a bad roommate though!

You can still be roommates if you aren't matched well in this way, but in my experience a lot of the compromise here is on the part of the introvert giving more of themselves than they would like and the extrovert not realizing that you are putting in a lot of work -- hopefully other people have better advice than I.
posted by yohko at 12:12 AM on September 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

Hello fellow introvert here and I think your behaviours are just fine. I mean - you still socialize with your housemates when you see them in common areas. You pay rent on time. You are clean. I have lived with both introverts and extroverts before - I let them know that my social energy is depleted after work/social events and I need my time to chill in my room for my own sanity. I did make time to go out for dinner with them once in a while and we caught up if we bumped into each other in the common areas. We all had really busy lifestyle and nobody expects to be On mode the time at home.
posted by azalea at 6:20 AM on September 29, 2018 [2 favorites]

I don't think you're a bad roommate at all, but I suspect it's the combination of spending time in your room and going out very little that is making them a little uneasy. They might feel like you're always there, kind of ....lurking.... a lot. (I'm not saying this is an accurate or fair interpretation, just that this might be how it feels/looks from their perspective.) As yohko points out above, sometimes people really welcome having the place to themselves for a bit for whatever reason.

The advice to hang out in the kitchen with your laptop when you're home sometimes, and also to go out a bit more, and let them know how long you'll be gone, is good. Also, how did they react when you asked about drinks? If they accepted the invitation, and you had a good time when you were all together, maybe you could just raise the issue openly, along the lines of "hey, does it bug you guys that I spend a lot of time in my room? I don't mean to be antisocial, it's just that I like quiet time for writing, etc.." That will give you all a better sense of what's going on in each other's heads.

The bottom line is that you are not doing anything wrong, but if you like the place and the people, a few small tweaks in your behaviour could make things a lot easier and more enjoyable for all of you.
posted by rpfields at 9:06 AM on September 29, 2018 [1 favorite]

Even when I lived with a roommate who I was already friends with (waves at xingcat) I mostly hung out in my room! I don't think you're being unreasonable -- people need alone time, some more than others, and as long as you aren't giving your roommates the silent treatment or ignoring their very existence on Earth, you're fine.
posted by sarcasticah at 9:17 AM on September 29, 2018

Metafilter, being an internet place where people write asynchronous contributions to long, thoughtful conversations and/or read thousand-comment threads in their entirety, probably has a somewhat higher percentage of introverts than the general population, so in this metapond, introverted behaviour like staying in one's room in a shared house probably seems extremely normal. Heck, most Mefites are probably reading this thread alone in their rooms in shared houses right this second.

By contrast, in my personal life experience- which involves a lot of extroverts given that I studied in, lived on campus in, and now work in, an extrovert-dominated milieu- I will offer that that set of behaviours would probably make many of the people I know feel rather uncomfortable, yes.

That doesn't mean it's wrong, and it doesn't mean you should change your behaviour. It might mean you and they might at some point be happier with a different match.

Also, you say, A few times I have heard the roommates express that they are uncomfortable with/don't like the fact I spend a lot of time in my room.

It's unclear how this came up, but it flagged as possible bullying to me (like, did they mean you to overhear them say that, rather than bringing it up with you in a diplomatic or gently curious way, like "hey Lee, you seem to stay in your room a lot, just want to say, we want you to feel welcome here so please feel free to use the common space and hang out, we'd love to chat with you!")?

If it is some level of social bullying, you'll definitely be happier elsewhere, and elsewhere does exist. I'm pretty extroverted and I generally like living with introverts. It's not a personality flaw at all, so please don't let them make you feel bad about it.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:11 PM on September 29, 2018 [4 favorites]

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