Don't hold back
February 15, 2006 12:45 AM   Subscribe

How do you learn not to hold back?

In several areas of my life, I've found myself holding back despite my best intentions. I really became aware of it when I finally started taking fencing lessons last year, something I'd always wanted to do. I've found that not only am I almost always on the defensive rather than the offensive, but when I actually do attempt an attack I end up pulling back most of the time thinking I won't get through. The points I score are almost always ripostes. I figured that if I went into a bout determined to follow through or attempt an attack even just once, regardless of the outcome, I could start to push past this, but it didn't work. Even consciously thinking about it I can't do it.

The more I thought about it the more I realized this wasn't just a fencing problem. I hold back in conversation, I hold back when I want to try something new, I hold back when I should be asserting myself, I hold back at work, I hold back in relationships, and on and on. I think what I'm most afraid of is failure. I don't want to lose what ground I have, and I don't want to come off looking incompetent or foolish. The end result is that I end up feeling very anxious in one of these situations, and I miss out on opportunities that could have been great if they succeeded. I know most of these things won't matter in 10, 20, 100 years, but in the meantime I feel like I'm keeping myself from fully experiencing life and giving it everything I've got. I've tried to approach some of these things in the same "baby steps" way as my attempts to improve my fencing, but in the heat of the moment I often do the exact same thing I did before.

I have dealt with a couple of major "failures" in my life already (both personal and professional) - things that actually will matter years later, because they changed the course of my entire life. These were very hard for me, but each time I eventually managed to pick myself up and rebuild. I learned a lot from these experiences, and I don't think I'll make the same mistakes again. That said, I still think I failed, and it still bothers me. I know it's ok to fail and that it's even good to fail from time to time (how else are we going to learn anything?), but I haven't managed to internalize it yet.

I want to learn to overcome this. You've all had some great advice for other people, so I thought you might have some tips for me. How have you overcome your fear of failure and/or learned to not hold back? May or may not be relevant: I'm in my late 20's, and I'm already in therapy, diagnosed with major depression, and on medication, and I do discuss this with my therapist. I'm just looking for different perspectives and things that have been useful for other people.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (35 answers total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
I was watching a Battlestar Galactica episode last night and a young lady Viper pilot said to a reporter that they are trained to think that they are already dead each time they go into combat.

That seems to me like a good way not to hold back.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:13 AM on February 15, 2006

I think a large portion of the people who spend as much time on the internet as we do are more of the quiet, brooding type. I, too, feel like I've been cursed with an excess of empathy and thoughtfulness, which has made it difficult to pull the trigger on certain occasions.

Some of the most successful people won't necessarily come off as the brightest. So, comparatively, after looking at their success it is easy to become envious and realize the major discrepency between the two personality types: boldness. Sangfroid. Assertiveness. Strength. Whatever.

The thing is, this caution will stunt you, but I don't believe it puts an upper limit on your growth as an individual unless you fail to apply yourself altogether. Think about how you learned to type. Personally, I couldn't stand mistakes on the screen. I don't think I honed my ability in a typing tutor, but I did my share of them. While they indicated to continue, despite mistakes, to reach the highest WPM, I would become frustrated and dismiss the lessons instead of doing them my own way. Now that I look at it, had I just gone back and corrected the mistakes, doing the lessons in my own way, I would not have given up and would be able to post markedly increased scores.

Maybe you didn't learn to type by meticulously striking each key and gaining speed from there, and I just completely missed the mark, but I think that what is more important than doing something without abandon is just doing the thing at all. Make the first step. Show up (which is half of it, or 90%, or something). Etc.

Be patient with yourself, and realize that your learning process is familiarization with your own mistakes. You will be more effective in striking your opponent if you better understand what it is you shouldn't be doing, as much as it is what you should be doing. Shortcutting with a transient attitude will likely not yield results that your more permanent personality will be happy with.

Also, confidence is important. Mine fluctuates greatly, but it is such an external variable that I am constantly frustrated by it, especially due to the fact that is so weighty in what we try. I would say focus on this the most, how to get the most confidence for your buck. Approach things knowing that you did in fact calculate your decision beforehand, and let that give you confidence. Also, address the issues that sap your confidence rather than ignoring/supressing them.

I think what I'm saying is don't be someone else to reach the higher level, just be a better you. If you want to be more aggressive, do that through your own personality. IANAP and I can't offer concrete first steps to this personal edification, but I do think it is important that you don't just attribute your shortcomings to a lack of being reckless.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 1:45 AM on February 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

One thing that helps me is to think long and hard about the absolute worst thing that could happen to me as a result of the choice I'm facing, realise that whatever happens I will survive and I will carry on. Sometimes I'll dwell for maybe 10 minutes on a chain of all the worst scenarios.
posted by godawful at 1:51 AM on February 15, 2006

(Usually in the scenarios I end up jobless and blackballed in my industry, with fewer friends, living back at my parents etc. But think about it - in that case you'd take 6 months to learn a new skill and you'd start again. You would survive.)
posted by godawful at 1:55 AM on February 15, 2006

When I was growing up, I kinda realised that me being overtly cautious led to me being totally ignored by everyone in a total wallflower situation. Not that it matters, but not being white didn't help either - I was always stereotyped as the quiet Chinese kid in the corner who was bound to be an accountant.

So I started ignoring my internal filters - saying what I wanted in the heat of the moment etc. -- but instead, I'm now stereotyped as the loud Chinese kid in the corner, and my mouth gets me into *far* too much trouble with the people I love.

If you don't want to hold back, then ignore the natural hesitation that comes before any action you decide to make. It does soon become second nature. But I'd be careful of what you wish for...
posted by badlydubbedboy at 2:02 AM on February 15, 2006

Two things I've read that inspire me:
1. Whatever life throws at me i can handle because I've already handled everything so far.
2. Fear feeds on itself so desensitise yourself by actively doing small things you fear and work upwards.
posted by b33j at 4:38 AM on February 15, 2006

Practice. Practice. Practice.

Find ways within your sphere of control in which you can force yourself to not hold back.

Do the doable today. Tomorrow there will be a new doable. Just do it.


Never give up.
posted by ewkpates at 4:48 AM on February 15, 2006

i recently had a look at this book and thought that it's actually quite good in dealing with al types of question one can have about him/herself.
posted by mailhans at 5:00 AM on February 15, 2006

I was watching a Battlestar Galactica episode last night and a young lady Viper pilot said to a reporter that they are trained to think that they are already dead each time they go into combat.

That seems to me like a good way not to hold back.

From Hagakure, the book of Samurai warrior code:
Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily. Every day when one’s body and mind are at peace, one should meditate upon being ripped apart by arrows, muskets, spears and swords, being carried away by surging waves, being thrown into the midst of a great fire, being struck by lightning, being shaken to death by a great earthquake, falling from thousand-foot cliffs, dying of disease or committing seppuku at the death of one’s master. And every day without fail one should consider himself as dead.
posted by Jairus at 5:19 AM on February 15, 2006

As a former fencer, I highly suggest that you practice fleshing. When you flesh, you basically run at your opponent, usually after parrying first. You can also flesh from a defensive position. I think that this might help you be more aggressive on the strip and off.
posted by JuliaKM at 5:44 AM on February 15, 2006

I think GooseOnTheLoose hit the nail directly on the head. Confidence is extremely important to keep from holding back. I've noticed in myself that I'm often hesitant to say or do things because of the thought of failure, but if I'm thinking about some kind of past success (even a small one), I don't exhibit those tendencies nearly as much and I'm able to do/say things I wouldn't normally do/say. This in turn gives me even more confidence, and it creates a kind of snowball effect mentally where I'm able to function without any fear of failure.

I'd recommend thinking about instances where what you've said or done has made you feel good about yourself. Reflect on what about it made you feel that way, and attempt to recreate that feeling in yourself. Before your next fencing practice, just think about your past successes and why/how they became successes. Then attack, even if it's just once. Build on it. It doesn't have to be at that same practice, but let your success of going on the attack put another layer on your snowball, and at some point in a practice attack twice.

The most important thing to remember is that you're not going to just wake up one morning and be confident. You have to build up your confidence, slowly. Work on making that first step, and then build from there.
posted by educatedslacker at 5:53 AM on February 15, 2006

Get sick of losing or being passed over. Takes time to build up and then integrate into your personality, but if you stop accepting retreat, eventually your system will utterly reject the behavior. Sounds like you're already on this track. Keep on it.
posted by scarabic at 7:54 AM on February 15, 2006

You're making the first step -- becoming aware of your actions (or lack thereof) and your propensity to back off.

I learned the same way you did - by taking up a hobby. For me it was Poker. I realized I was being bullied around all the time - always looking for a reason to fold, rather than a reason to raise. This came directly out of a generally pessimistic world view and a lack of confidence.

Basically, as cliche and cheesy as it sounds, you need to visualize yourself doing the right thing - going on the offensive and winning. Then you need to act out that visualization. Athletes do this all the time, and you can do it in regular life, too.

This goes beyond just a matter of self confidence, though I agree that's a huge factor. It is highly likely that you have a generally pessimistic world view. This does not mean "when thinking about world events, you are negative". This means that in situations where you are faced with a decision or forced into immediate action - you are playing the game of life "not to lose", rather than to win. You are likely looking for safety, and are vigilant - maybe even hypervigilant about finding signs that things will go wrong so you can avoid them. You are likely risk averse.

These are not necessarily negative things - they're just natural reactions to your environment and what is possibly a genetic predisposition to being risk averse and perhaps introverted.

Now that you're aware that you're backing off, you need to start forcing yourself not to, despite the fact that it will be uncomfortable. In time, and after practice, you will gain confidence and find yourself doing this less and less, but you have to stick to it which is hard since it brings you out of your comfort zone.

I'm still working on this exact thing myself.
posted by twiggy at 8:12 AM on February 15, 2006

My most meaningful strategy has been this:

Fake It Till You Make It

I cannot say enough about what this statement has done for my life. If I ever want to change myself, I simply fake it till I make it. If you spend enough time faking being something, you will be that thing.

Some cautions are that you can't fake some things, like for instance you can't fake having a Ph.D. I am rather talking about personality traits and things like that. You can fake being confident, outgoing, decisive. Just try it and see what I mean.
posted by zhivota at 8:29 AM on February 15, 2006

Take up a martial art, specifically tae kwon do. If you want to be more aggressive, confident, and more willing to endure pain then nothing else is better short of bootcamp. You might also pick up some hobbies that allow you to get more comfortable with taking calculated risks. This is a habit-thing, not a therapy thing. You need to habituate yourself to being comfortable with risk, being comfortable with pain, and understanding your own strengths and weaknesses.
posted by nixerman at 8:37 AM on February 15, 2006

I guess what it comes down to for me is: don't fear mistakes. In life, in sports, in whatever, nobody's perfect; how you recover, learn, and grow from those mistakes helps define how you are.

In your case, this would translate as "don't fear doing something all the way because of the possible outcome" - I know nothing about fencing, but it seems that, as in any other sport, the more aggressive you are the more you will succeed.

To load you up with some pithy metaphors that might help:

1. Success is a poor teacher
2. The best way to gain the approval of others is not to need it
3. No matter if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right

I don't mean to make what you want to do sound easy, because it's not, but it's a worthwhile goal; as you make this journey, be sure to give yourself credit for hitting milestones along the way, no matter how minor they may seem, and build on them. incremental progress is important to recognize.

Good luck!
posted by pdb at 9:10 AM on February 15, 2006

Take up a martial art

he already has - just a european one instead of an asian one.

I agree that meditation and reflection on your attitude is important, and habit is what will ultimately change the way you behave. so you're on the right track; I'd give yourself some specific, attainable goals and a timeframe to achieve them within to work on next (eg, must work in x offensives in the next fencing match; must make x bold suggestions at work; must ask out x people on dates / etc). These kinds of concrete goals help me to actually take steps that I am only thinking about abstractly, and also help clarify what exactly needs to be done right now.
posted by mdn at 9:13 AM on February 15, 2006

I play basketball and was always a little timid to shoot, despite having a decent shot. Eventually, I just got into the mindset where, if I have a good opportunity, I automatically shoot, regardless of whether I've missed earlier.

I think what let me start doing that was realizing that OTHER people seem to remember the makes more than the misses. I can shoot 4 for 10, but if the 4 looked good and the 6 didn't look awful, people will say something like, "Good shooting!" after the game. Previously, I would beat myself up and stop shooting if I missed one or two.

As a benefit, my shot has improved a lot from the extra in-game practice. People on opposing teams actually warn each other, "Be careful! He's a shooter." (i.e. "He can shoot.") This I could never have predicted.
posted by callmejay at 9:46 AM on February 15, 2006

posted by rxrfrx at 9:49 AM on February 15, 2006

One more idea.

I think that a lot of being courageous is developing a kind of purposeful tunnel vision. To go back to basketball, it takes some courage to take a shot with perfect form knowing you're going to be fouled right as you release. I've learned somehow to simply ignore the sensory data of large men running towards me by focusing my attention on the hoop. Similarly, when I'm attacking the King in fast chess, I mostly ignore the rest of the board, trusting that my attack will make losses elsewhere irrelevant.

Perhaps you can somehow black out everything except the target when you're going for an offensive maneuver. If you're scared of being hit when you're trying to hit, you'll be distracted and, consequently, less likely to succeed.
posted by callmejay at 9:52 AM on February 15, 2006

Confidence is the key. Tough to acquire, tougher to keep (sometimes). But imperative to have.

How you build your confidence is up to you, but there many ways to do this (based on whether we are still discussing fencing, or a more broad/diverse topic). Some good suggestions above.

Believe in yourself, no matter what happens, and your confidence will roll along with you.
posted by noahv at 10:40 AM on February 15, 2006

1) I'm in zhivota's "Fake it till you Make it" camp.

2) Before a match (or a test or an interview) listen to something aggressive to psyche yourself up.

I hesitate, prevaricate, and second guess myself constantly. It's been a revelation to see how much better I do on exams and presentations when I psyche myself up on Rob Zombie first.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:20 AM on February 15, 2006

Some of the advice in here tends toward the "just do it" or "think differently" schools of thought, but personally I wouldn't find that practical. When it comes down to the actual situation where you want to do something but hesitate, once you've thought about the decision, you've already lost. Stuck in the anxiety, you're not going to Do It if there's even an option not to.

So don't give yourself that option. To hell with baby steps -- throw yourself into a new situation where there is no escape and you have to do something scary out of your comfort zone (but ultimately inconsequential). The first step to get yourself into this mess should be a no-brainer (think Neo and the red pill). Like getting on a bus that you don't know where it goes, or showing up at an event you would never go to, or starting a conversation with someone you wouldn't normally. Sign up for, I dunno, a metalworking class. Stepping out of your usual context can break safe old habits. Don't go in with expectations, just run with it: afterwards you'll think, "that's weird, nothing bad happened. In fact, it was really cool and I surprised myself." (If something does go amiss: it's inconsequential, remember? Do it again better tomorrow.) Eventually you'll be so busy moving forward that you forget to think about the idea of failure.

Similarly, you "don't want to lose what ground you have," so go somewhere you have no ground and nothing to lose. Go on a trip where you're anonymous, and then "fake it til you make it." It's easier when there's nobody there who knows you or expects anything of you. And then logically you can only come out ahead with new experience & confidence & hopefully the knowledge that you can be whoever you want to be.

Also remember: everyone is faking it.
posted by Xelf at 11:21 AM on February 15, 2006

PS. After seeing ruminant's comment, I realize I need to second the music: some strong, upbeat tunes can make a huge difference. In fact, go read this neat post by loquacious about one of the best destroyers of inhibitions and makers of confidence there is, IMO. Dunno how I forgot about that.
posted by Xelf at 11:41 AM on February 15, 2006

I'm in the "fake it till you make it" camp too, but I think of it slightly differently. I tell myself I'm acting a part - playing the part of someone really outgoing, confident, self-assured, etc. This technique has helped me develop a public speaking part of my career which scared the bejeebers out of me when I first began, and now public speaking doesn't worry me at all.
posted by andraste at 12:05 PM on February 15, 2006

It might help a bit to change the way you phrase things about yourself. You haven't held back, for example -- you've succeeded in taking fencing lessons! Something you've always wanted to do! That's a good thing, not something to keep beating yourself up about!

I do the same thing. For years I've told myself, and other people, that I hate and avoid change. I finally realized several months ago that change-avoidant me had moved across the country twice, pulled myself out of a bad relationship, re-examined a lot of the relationships in my life, and apparently gained a reputation among my friends as someone who's "always trying new things," all within a 12-month period. And yet, I still often hear myself using the "hate change" excuse to stay stuck in situations I don't like. My main goal right now is just to excise that phrase from my head, because it's reasonably obvious that it's false.

It's obvious that you can successfully go for things -- you've done it. So start focusing on those things you've accomplished rather than just on how you're not stacking up. ("Look at me! I'm fencing! I've always wanted to fence! This is awesome!") It won't solve the problem, but it might give you a clearer mind to tackle it.
posted by occhiblu at 12:55 PM on February 15, 2006

(I should add: The fact that *thinking about* doing all those things made me anxious and unhappy before I did them, and so I did them maybe later than I would have otherwise, was what made me think that I somehow had failed. But... they happened, in the end, and that's what important.)
posted by occhiblu at 12:59 PM on February 15, 2006

This is an issue I've thought alot about recently. 2005 was one of the worst years of my life, and I've made some drastic changes recently to make things better -- taken steps that are terrifying, in a way, and which the me of a few years ago may never have been able to make.

For the first time in my life, I quit a job without anything else lined up, and no idea where I would be or what I would be doing in a month's time. Since, I have picked up and moved across the country to live in a city that, up until I interviewed up here, I had never spent a night in in my life.

Is it scary? Hell yes. Is part of me afraid I'm going to flop on my face, and be left needing to crawl home to my parents in a few months, or a year, or however long? Yep. But I did what I did anyway for two reasons.

The first is because someone very special to me lives up here, and I was bound and determined to get closer to her. The second is because I'd already pretty much hit rock bottom where I was -- I was already looking at the prospect of returning to my parents home on the coast and... restarting my life. It was just about the worst, most humiliating, thing I could think of happening to me.

But now, for the first time in many, many years, I feel like I'm on the right track. I'm still a bit scared at times, but I'm happy, and confident, and I think that whatever happens to happen, I can handle it -- and, for perhaps the first time in my 26 years, I feel like a real grown up.

Since people are slinging about pithy phrases and quotes in this thread, I'll summarize my new life philosophy in two of my favorite Palahniuk quotes:

1) It's only after we've lost everything that we are free to do anything.
2) Find out what you're afraid of, and go live there.

Every journey of 1000 miles begins with a first step. Do you want to learn to take risks and do the things that scare you? Start today. Do something new. As suggested above -- step on a bus that you've never been on before. Or, perhaps, go to the library, walk down a random shelf, pick a random book without looking, check it out, and read it, front to back. Walk up to a random person on the street and strike up a conversation with them -- and try to get them to converse back, however hesitant they may be. Do something that pushes your comfort zone, and do it knowingly and mindfully.

And when you expand your comfort zone, keep pushing. Do something every day that scares the shit out of you.

"Find out what you're afraid of, and go live there."

The worst loss I can think of, the most dismal failure I can imagine, is to lay on your death bed full of regrets.
posted by jammer at 1:39 PM on February 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

As suggested, read the Hagakure.
When 'getting my bottle up' I tell myself I've got nothing to lose and mean it. If I find something scares me, I try to figure out why and then conquer that fear. Sometimes that means flailing about until something works, but it's better than nothing!
posted by black8 at 2:13 PM on February 15, 2006

he already has - just a european one instead of an asian one.

Eh, fencing is nice and all but it doesn't compare. The asker is interested in being more aggressive than yeah, a martial art where there's a strong element of pain will help a lot. This is how you habituate people to be more aggressive: you provide strong, instaneous negative feedback (e.g. concussions) in those moments when they're not aggressive. Fencing doesn't provide that.
posted by nixerman at 2:55 PM on February 15, 2006

As a former fencer, I highly suggest that you practice fleshing. When you flesh, you basically run at your opponent, usually after parrying first.

I think you're talking about a "fleche", not "flesh". I wouldn't go about advising fencers to go "fleshing". And you don't just run at your opponent, the crossover required is now illegal in sabre, far too risky in epee, and only works in foil if you time it right, much more precise than basically running at your opponent.

Eh, fencing is nice and all but it doesn't compare. The asker is interested in being more aggressive than yeah, a martial art where there's a strong element of pain will help a lot. This is how you habituate people to be more aggressive: you provide strong, instaneous negative feedback (e.g. concussions) in those moments when they're not aggressive. Fencing doesn't provide that.

If you're being provided concussions, all that's doing is making you stupider and slower, brutality is not the path to confidence. If you stayed on the defensive in my salle, you're going home with stripes up your arm and back, courtesy of a maitre d'armes that wanted active, not reactive fencers. Painful, but not damaging, and highly effective. Not to mention the extra running, pushups and situps you'd get. I've trained in western fencing, kendo and martial arts, and the knocks are different, but with a good instructor the results are the same.

To the writer, at least in your bouts, remember that the purpose of training is to learn. You don't have to be perfect every bout. Set a goal about what you want to learn for that bout, for example, go for a hit to the weapon side shoulder by feinting to the non-weapon side, reacting to the parry with a disengage and making your strike. If you hit non-target area (I'm assuming foil here) every time, or get picked up and lose the bout on ripostes, fine, you've practiced and tested a maneuver. Set a new goal for your next bout. Try this for a few of your bouts for the night and gradually get more aggressive. How to apply this in your life, I don't know. In time you may just get tired of being an observer and decide to be more in the game. It may be a confidence that you'll develop with a little bit more age, but the fact that you can recognize this about yourself and acknowledge that you don't like it is obviously a big deal, so think about why you do it, what are you afraid of, what is at risk, etc. Good luck!
posted by tetsuo at 4:48 PM on February 15, 2006

I'm with the "Fake it till you make it" crowd also.

Some people are more beta, some more alpha. Some aggressive some not. Often smart people tend be more passive because they over-think things. This natural predilection can be difficult to over come but not impossible.

When I first started boxing and martial arts I was definitely very passive. I was not naturally athletic so I was afraid of looking stupid. I was afraid of hurting people. Yet I am very competitive. It took me a while to realize I wasn't small or weak. That as I trained I was getting better, stronger and faster. My metric was off because everybody else was getting better, too.

I got over it by faking it for a long time. By letting myself lose to smaller people. By making mistakes. By making GOOD mistakes.

One thing that helped was I had a coach that had me do what he called "Ape-shit" drills. He directed me to go to the gym when nobody was there, set a timer for fifteen minutes - and hit the bag as hard as I could. With little concern for form - just hard with a straight right. Yell and scream. Just beat the shit out of that bag - with one type of basic punch - non stop until the timer rang then walk away. I'm sure it would look insane. And it hurt at first. But it really helped me command my aggression and not be afraid of it.

I say drill your basic most aggressive advance attack by your self. Non stop for a short period of time a couple of times per week. Yell. Scream. Let your self feel stupid. Let your self get over it.
posted by tkchrist at 5:55 PM on February 15, 2006

separate who you are from what you do. in other words, remind yourself that failing to do something does not mean that you are a failure.

also check yourself, do you categorize someone who makes an occasional mistake as an idiot? if you're too strict a perfectionist you'll have a hard time doing things that you might not do well.
posted by mirileh at 5:38 AM on February 16, 2006

play your neuroses against each other: fear of failure vs. future regret.

when i'm afraid of asserting myself (like asking a girl out, for instance) i weigh that fear against the future regret of doing nothing. i know that sounds rather obvious, but i can clearly visualize how long i'm going to brood and beat myself up before letting it go. (obsessing being another bad habit)...

this vision is often so unattractive that i'll go ahead and ask her out. and if i crash and burn, i'm pissed, but that sting fades much more quickly than wondering what would have happened.

bottom line: mentally changing yourself is difficult (if not impossible)... better living through emotional brinksmanship :-)
posted by cgs at 1:17 PM on February 16, 2006

All things can be practised in the mind. And as many times as you want to. This allows you to do it almost automatically when the time comes. Unfortunately fear does sometimes come into the picture. So... Work out in your mind beforehand what to do if fear gets in the way.

Also... Sometimes a lack of motivation comes into play. My best advice is to try to do something about it each time you are frustrated about a lack of motivation. Just one action. If it feels good then you have no reason to stop until your tired, bored or the job is done. Eventually one should reach a point where the task is an enjoyable part of everyday life and not a chore. I think...

I must also add that some of the best experiences in life involve being very afraid. Take bungee jumping as an example. Everybody is afraid the first time. And most are probably still a little afraid the hundredth time they do it. But it's such fun :)
posted by Arno at 4:07 AM on March 29, 2006

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