How Do I Stop My Friend From Marrying the Wrong Person?
August 18, 2018 10:00 PM Subscribe
I know what you're going to say. Ultimately, that the popular answer to this question will be "You can't". Chased with a shot of perennial favorite "It's none of your damn business anyway." But hear me out. Because I feel like it's kind of my fault...
My friend and I met around the spring of '09 and we were fast friends from that time. We were so close that I'd even say we really were *best* friends for a while there. He struggles with social anxiety and depression as well as a history of addiction. He also didn't have the most extensive social circle/support system so he was always kind of a chronic underachiever. But make no mistake- he had a brilliant, vibrant mind. He was compassionate, funny and a total individual who never allowed himself to be swayed by what everyone else was doing.
Here's where I come into it:
He started going through a dark period a few years after I met him. After watching him really struggle, I suggested a slightly out of the way antidepressant that I had had good luck with years before. He asked his therapist and a few weeks later, after what had been *years* of angst, the clouds parted and he was his old self again. He started taking action and achieving things after after years of doing not much. Then he decided to start online dating. After a rocky beginning he met a nice girl and they started going out. We stopped talking as much but I understood and was happy for them.
This is where it started to go off the rails:
We don't really talk much now but for the first couple of years, he would still come to me seeking advice about this girl and disclose his ambiguity about their relationship. He's very romantic, in love with love. This girl was dealing with major health issues and I think he liked the idea of saving her more than he was really into her. There were times when he told me he wanted to leave in the beginning but he felt guilty and obligated to stay. He also intimated that he wasn't particularly attracted to her or really in love with her. But he did have warm feelings towards her and felt protective. I wasn't too worried and felt sure they'd break up soon.
But they didn't.
He called me again, right before he asked her to move in with him. Again he expressed ambiguity and said that she had been pushing pretty hard for this to happen, while trying to drag him to all her college friends weddings. He had also gotten closer with her family and they had been dropping not-so-subtle-hints to him that he needed to ask her to move in. I was noncommittal in my response-I hoped he'd figure it out for himself- and wished them luck.
Obviously they got really close when she moved in and it was just count down to when they'd get engaged. He finally asked her about 2 months ago and they were joking with me about the fact that she was about as subtle as a sledgehammer in the lead up to him asking. It didn't sit well with me but I know lots of girls who do this kind of thing in relationships. Who am I to judge?
While some good things have come out of her moving in, I started noticing lots of behavioral changes in him that I find distressing and basically center around that fact that, while nice, this girl was determined to be married. To anyone, I think. And now she TOTALLY wears the pants. He doesn't seem happy. More like comfortably lobotomized. He's basically disengaged from all of his friends. And old hobbies and interests. But it's not like he's got goo goo eyes for her either. He's just spacey, quiet, incoherent or checking his phone. He's a natural introvert and she's a huge extrovert and he's decided now to let her do all the talking in public while he just checks out. He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits. We went out to dinner the other night but he refused to order dinner for himself. He then proceeded to eat candy and ice cream. He's done this the last two times I've eaten out with him. This an adult we're talking about here. The troubling thing is that besides depression, I'm actually wondering about his financial situation (which has never been good) and I'm starting to think the not-eating-dinner-at-restaurants behavior is a manifestation of his fears about wedding costs. I know that sounds crazy but if you knew his situation, you'd know it's something he might do. Or at least think. Immediately after the engagement they had a related hiccup concerning finances which I won't get into for privacy reasons. But that kind of stuff has been in the air with them lately.
At dinner I was making conversation with him and said "So, what have you guys been up to lately?" and he said "Oh, well. The summer has been pretty good. We were up at her family's beach house in ______ about a a month ago." To which I immediately responded "I KNOW. I WENT THERE TO VISIT YOU. REMEMBER?!" "Oh yeah" he said and kind of tittered to himself weirdly and then went back to the phone.
Even his fiancee was taken aback that he had forgotten that one....
So my question is:
1.) Is there something I can actually say to him? Should I say something? Or do I need to accept that fact that he's made his choices and just move on?
2.) He's STILL on the generic version of the same antidepressant, all these years later. And now, what with his kind of numbed out flat affect, I'm worried it has damaged him somehow and I feel kind of responsible. Is there some way I can broach this with him or no?
3.) Is it wrong of me to want to possibly talk him out of this relationship when, for a variety of reasons, he doesn't have many prospects other than this girl? I think she does takes care of him in the real world, practical sense. I've never seen his apartment in all these years of knowing him but now they want to have 'company' over. So she does force him to get his act together- she's more like a Mom. And he doesn't really have any family and now he's about to marry into hers and I think that's a source of comfort for him. He spends more time with her family than he does with his friends. But it also seems like he's allowed himself to be trapped. And that he may be substituting comfort for real connection. I'm worried his longterm happiness and mental health is at stake. Thoughts? Help!
My friend and I met around the spring of '09 and we were fast friends from that time. We were so close that I'd even say we really were *best* friends for a while there. He struggles with social anxiety and depression as well as a history of addiction. He also didn't have the most extensive social circle/support system so he was always kind of a chronic underachiever. But make no mistake- he had a brilliant, vibrant mind. He was compassionate, funny and a total individual who never allowed himself to be swayed by what everyone else was doing.
Here's where I come into it:
He started going through a dark period a few years after I met him. After watching him really struggle, I suggested a slightly out of the way antidepressant that I had had good luck with years before. He asked his therapist and a few weeks later, after what had been *years* of angst, the clouds parted and he was his old self again. He started taking action and achieving things after after years of doing not much. Then he decided to start online dating. After a rocky beginning he met a nice girl and they started going out. We stopped talking as much but I understood and was happy for them.
This is where it started to go off the rails:
We don't really talk much now but for the first couple of years, he would still come to me seeking advice about this girl and disclose his ambiguity about their relationship. He's very romantic, in love with love. This girl was dealing with major health issues and I think he liked the idea of saving her more than he was really into her. There were times when he told me he wanted to leave in the beginning but he felt guilty and obligated to stay. He also intimated that he wasn't particularly attracted to her or really in love with her. But he did have warm feelings towards her and felt protective. I wasn't too worried and felt sure they'd break up soon.
But they didn't.
He called me again, right before he asked her to move in with him. Again he expressed ambiguity and said that she had been pushing pretty hard for this to happen, while trying to drag him to all her college friends weddings. He had also gotten closer with her family and they had been dropping not-so-subtle-hints to him that he needed to ask her to move in. I was noncommittal in my response-I hoped he'd figure it out for himself- and wished them luck.
Obviously they got really close when she moved in and it was just count down to when they'd get engaged. He finally asked her about 2 months ago and they were joking with me about the fact that she was about as subtle as a sledgehammer in the lead up to him asking. It didn't sit well with me but I know lots of girls who do this kind of thing in relationships. Who am I to judge?
While some good things have come out of her moving in, I started noticing lots of behavioral changes in him that I find distressing and basically center around that fact that, while nice, this girl was determined to be married. To anyone, I think. And now she TOTALLY wears the pants. He doesn't seem happy. More like comfortably lobotomized. He's basically disengaged from all of his friends. And old hobbies and interests. But it's not like he's got goo goo eyes for her either. He's just spacey, quiet, incoherent or checking his phone. He's a natural introvert and she's a huge extrovert and he's decided now to let her do all the talking in public while he just checks out. He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits. We went out to dinner the other night but he refused to order dinner for himself. He then proceeded to eat candy and ice cream. He's done this the last two times I've eaten out with him. This an adult we're talking about here. The troubling thing is that besides depression, I'm actually wondering about his financial situation (which has never been good) and I'm starting to think the not-eating-dinner-at-restaurants behavior is a manifestation of his fears about wedding costs. I know that sounds crazy but if you knew his situation, you'd know it's something he might do. Or at least think. Immediately after the engagement they had a related hiccup concerning finances which I won't get into for privacy reasons. But that kind of stuff has been in the air with them lately.
At dinner I was making conversation with him and said "So, what have you guys been up to lately?" and he said "Oh, well. The summer has been pretty good. We were up at her family's beach house in ______ about a a month ago." To which I immediately responded "I KNOW. I WENT THERE TO VISIT YOU. REMEMBER?!" "Oh yeah" he said and kind of tittered to himself weirdly and then went back to the phone.
Even his fiancee was taken aback that he had forgotten that one....
So my question is:
1.) Is there something I can actually say to him? Should I say something? Or do I need to accept that fact that he's made his choices and just move on?
2.) He's STILL on the generic version of the same antidepressant, all these years later. And now, what with his kind of numbed out flat affect, I'm worried it has damaged him somehow and I feel kind of responsible. Is there some way I can broach this with him or no?
3.) Is it wrong of me to want to possibly talk him out of this relationship when, for a variety of reasons, he doesn't have many prospects other than this girl? I think she does takes care of him in the real world, practical sense. I've never seen his apartment in all these years of knowing him but now they want to have 'company' over. So she does force him to get his act together- she's more like a Mom. And he doesn't really have any family and now he's about to marry into hers and I think that's a source of comfort for him. He spends more time with her family than he does with his friends. But it also seems like he's allowed himself to be trapped. And that he may be substituting comfort for real connection. I'm worried his longterm happiness and mental health is at stake. Thoughts? Help!
Agree that there's not a ton you can or really should do. Reading your post, it sounds like his health stuff is a much bigger potential problem than his relationship, which sounds kind of fine, at least not-terrible.
1. I think that, if you're worried about him, you should say that to him, in a loving, non-judgmental way. If you broach it, ask him how he's doing in a general way. But I think you should mostly leave his fiancee out of it. Except maybe to ask how he's feeling about the wedding and the relationship in general (you know, general friends checking in with each other stuff). In general, I'd say start by asking him how he's doing/feeling, rather than launching right into a lecture/intervention, which is unlikely to go well. He may really just need someone to talk to.
2. This seems like a stretch. He has a doctor, right? This is not your fault. Again, I think it's reasonable to bring it up with him if you want, but I'd so so more in terms of asking him how he's feeling, and maybe offering some low-key observations.
3. Ehhhhhhh, I think this gets into the territory of "different people want different things from relationships." Some people (especially a lot of men) want someone who will take care of them and essentially be their mom. To be honest, I've seen this exact dynamic play out in several relationships I know: reluctant dude, woman "wears him down" and gets commitment, and takes on the mom role. I agree that it seems like hell, but it is a very common model for hetero relationships and it does seem to work for a lot of people.
posted by lunasol at 10:58 PM on August 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
1. I think that, if you're worried about him, you should say that to him, in a loving, non-judgmental way. If you broach it, ask him how he's doing in a general way. But I think you should mostly leave his fiancee out of it. Except maybe to ask how he's feeling about the wedding and the relationship in general (you know, general friends checking in with each other stuff). In general, I'd say start by asking him how he's doing/feeling, rather than launching right into a lecture/intervention, which is unlikely to go well. He may really just need someone to talk to.
2. This seems like a stretch. He has a doctor, right? This is not your fault. Again, I think it's reasonable to bring it up with him if you want, but I'd so so more in terms of asking him how he's feeling, and maybe offering some low-key observations.
3. Ehhhhhhh, I think this gets into the territory of "different people want different things from relationships." Some people (especially a lot of men) want someone who will take care of them and essentially be their mom. To be honest, I've seen this exact dynamic play out in several relationships I know: reluctant dude, woman "wears him down" and gets commitment, and takes on the mom role. I agree that it seems like hell, but it is a very common model for hetero relationships and it does seem to work for a lot of people.
posted by lunasol at 10:58 PM on August 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
fact that she was about as subtle as a sledgehammer in the lead up to him asking. It didn't sit well with me but I know lots of girls who do this kind of thing in relationships.
if that didn't sit well with you, you must really disapprove of your friend for just coming right out and asking. letting a partner know you want to get married doesn't get any less subtle than that! how embarrassing for him. subtle as a wrecking ball.
And now she TOTALLY wears the pants.
is this for real
look, he is altering his brain chemistry in a way that you think is no longer good for him because you told him to. He went off and asked not for general pharmaceutical help, not for a specific class of drug, but for a actual named drug, because you liked it and you told him to try it. he is that easy to influence. Now you think maybe he's not doing so well mentally, what with the forgetfulness and the passivity and so on. this has exactly nothing to do with his fiancee and she is the least of his problems, if you must believe her to be a problem at all.
he's a pliable man. you didn't make him that way, but you were ok with it when you were the one whose advice he was following. so if you want to make up for something you feel is somehow your fault, tell him to go back to his medical team and look into changing antidepressants. you are not "responsible" for his med management or qualified to assess it, but you were comfortable talking to him about it and making suggestions before and it worked out, sort of. so why not now?
but you do not tell him that you think he needs to seize more power and trousers because of your firmly held ideas about the correct balance of those things in a hetero relationship. it's always nice to imagine someone can't say No to an assertive person you don't like, if you won't accept that they choose to say yes.
He's just spacey, quiet, incoherent or checking his phone. . He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time
this sounds nothing like bad relationship habits and everything like reactions to meds for other things besides depression
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:21 PM on August 18, 2018 [80 favorites]
if that didn't sit well with you, you must really disapprove of your friend for just coming right out and asking. letting a partner know you want to get married doesn't get any less subtle than that! how embarrassing for him. subtle as a wrecking ball.
And now she TOTALLY wears the pants.
is this for real
look, he is altering his brain chemistry in a way that you think is no longer good for him because you told him to. He went off and asked not for general pharmaceutical help, not for a specific class of drug, but for a actual named drug, because you liked it and you told him to try it. he is that easy to influence. Now you think maybe he's not doing so well mentally, what with the forgetfulness and the passivity and so on. this has exactly nothing to do with his fiancee and she is the least of his problems, if you must believe her to be a problem at all.
he's a pliable man. you didn't make him that way, but you were ok with it when you were the one whose advice he was following. so if you want to make up for something you feel is somehow your fault, tell him to go back to his medical team and look into changing antidepressants. you are not "responsible" for his med management or qualified to assess it, but you were comfortable talking to him about it and making suggestions before and it worked out, sort of. so why not now?
but you do not tell him that you think he needs to seize more power and trousers because of your firmly held ideas about the correct balance of those things in a hetero relationship. it's always nice to imagine someone can't say No to an assertive person you don't like, if you won't accept that they choose to say yes.
He's just spacey, quiet, incoherent or checking his phone. . He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time
this sounds nothing like bad relationship habits and everything like reactions to meds for other things besides depression
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:21 PM on August 18, 2018 [80 favorites]
I think this is a really well thought out question. I hope you pop back in to tell us what this medication is, because I’m super curious.
In general, the question does say a bit more about you than him. I can tell you that the sweets craving and financial issues are truly worrying and worth bringing up if you can. The rest is about you - AND THAT’S OK!
I can’t tell if you are male or female, and I’m not going to reread if you mentioned it or click on your profile to try and find out. It doesn’t matter. I will say that this may just be who he is, even if you want him to be the very best version of himself. Meanwhile, his soon to be wife is giving him her whole life. Her family, her intimacy, HER TRUST THAT HE WON’T FUCK UP HER FUTURE AND/OR ABUSE HER, and you’re sorta... denigrating all of that and her.
I’ve done this to women a lot in the past, and I’m female. It’s part of my cultural past and a feature of the generation I belong to. It’s hard to grok, until you do. Then you can’t unsee it in yourself and others.
Yes talk to him openly if you can because he seems unusually spacey and sugar addicted and that’s A Thing. It may be medication side effects or poor coping skills. Change is traumatic, major life changes are traumatic. This A Thing.
If you want advice, I STRONGLY urge you to watch every youtube video possible about non violent communication and use what you learn there about framing your concerns and conversation with your friend in the most positive and inspiring terms possible. There is always room to improve.
The best coping skill I know to pass on is to adopt a practice, something that includes exercise, heavy breathing or directed breath work + an aspect of meditation (ex: a meditative state is achieved.) For me this is yoga, for others surfing, hiking, jogging, lifting, cycling- it all works.
You could start a practice and ask him to join you occasionally.
That’s my advice.
posted by jbenben at 11:44 PM on August 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
In general, the question does say a bit more about you than him. I can tell you that the sweets craving and financial issues are truly worrying and worth bringing up if you can. The rest is about you - AND THAT’S OK!
I can’t tell if you are male or female, and I’m not going to reread if you mentioned it or click on your profile to try and find out. It doesn’t matter. I will say that this may just be who he is, even if you want him to be the very best version of himself. Meanwhile, his soon to be wife is giving him her whole life. Her family, her intimacy, HER TRUST THAT HE WON’T FUCK UP HER FUTURE AND/OR ABUSE HER, and you’re sorta... denigrating all of that and her.
I’ve done this to women a lot in the past, and I’m female. It’s part of my cultural past and a feature of the generation I belong to. It’s hard to grok, until you do. Then you can’t unsee it in yourself and others.
Yes talk to him openly if you can because he seems unusually spacey and sugar addicted and that’s A Thing. It may be medication side effects or poor coping skills. Change is traumatic, major life changes are traumatic. This A Thing.
If you want advice, I STRONGLY urge you to watch every youtube video possible about non violent communication and use what you learn there about framing your concerns and conversation with your friend in the most positive and inspiring terms possible. There is always room to improve.
The best coping skill I know to pass on is to adopt a practice, something that includes exercise, heavy breathing or directed breath work + an aspect of meditation (ex: a meditative state is achieved.) For me this is yoga, for others surfing, hiking, jogging, lifting, cycling- it all works.
You could start a practice and ask him to join you occasionally.
That’s my advice.
posted by jbenben at 11:44 PM on August 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
He needs her a lot more than she needs him.
If you did manage to break them up are you prepared to take care of him?
Because that's where he's going if he keeps going the way he is now.
In my opinion, she's the one who should be having second thoughts.
posted by jamjam at 12:09 AM on August 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
If you did manage to break them up are you prepared to take care of him?
Because that's where he's going if he keeps going the way he is now.
In my opinion, she's the one who should be having second thoughts.
posted by jamjam at 12:09 AM on August 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think it's your fault at all that he's marrying her. It seems like you feel somewhat at fault because you've had misgivings about her all along and never expressed those misgivings when he asked you, but that doesn't make his decision to marry her your fault. He's an adult and he has decided on his own.
Having said that, I don't think it would hurt to very gently ask how he's doing and express concerns about his health and concerns about his feelings (or lack thereof) for his partner. But I would bring it up once and then let it go unless he wants to discuss it further. It's his life, people want different relationship styles and different things out of relationships, and if he is happy to be marrying her then so be it.
posted by sunflower16 at 12:13 AM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Having said that, I don't think it would hurt to very gently ask how he's doing and express concerns about his health and concerns about his feelings (or lack thereof) for his partner. But I would bring it up once and then let it go unless he wants to discuss it further. It's his life, people want different relationship styles and different things out of relationships, and if he is happy to be marrying her then so be it.
posted by sunflower16 at 12:13 AM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
OK. So I've heard you out. And you can't, and it's none of your damn business anyway.
But it's not your fault.
posted by flabdablet at 2:33 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
But it's not your fault.
posted by flabdablet at 2:33 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
As others have said, it is not your fault that he is marrying someone. If you are concerned about his behaviour, it seems to me you follow sunflower16's very good script above. Or you can try some version of this:
Hello, old friend. May I ask you a question? (If he says no, accept it.) How are you? Truly? Because I have noticed some changes in you that worry me. May I tell you what I have noticed?
If you talk to your friend, be open minded. Be curious. Listen to what he says without judgment. Only if he agrees should you tell him about your concerns and, honestly, I wouldn't even mention his girlfriend and the wedding. I would mention his affect, his disordered eating, his memory lapses but not in a judgmental way, again, but simply in a curious way. If you love your friend, your job is not to control his life but to raise your concerns and then accept whatever he decides to do, which may well be nothing.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:13 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hello, old friend. May I ask you a question? (If he says no, accept it.) How are you? Truly? Because I have noticed some changes in you that worry me. May I tell you what I have noticed?
If you talk to your friend, be open minded. Be curious. Listen to what he says without judgment. Only if he agrees should you tell him about your concerns and, honestly, I wouldn't even mention his girlfriend and the wedding. I would mention his affect, his disordered eating, his memory lapses but not in a judgmental way, again, but simply in a curious way. If you love your friend, your job is not to control his life but to raise your concerns and then accept whatever he decides to do, which may well be nothing.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:13 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
He was going through a dark patch before he met her, remember? When he was with you and you were best friends. Using your logic, we should pin that on you and your influence. Why is it when he was going through that, it was due to a mental imbalance but now it’s due to her?
If you ask me, she’s the one thing he’s actually got going for him. He’s enjoying summer, she’s got a family he hangs out with, she gets him out of the house and forces him to get his act together. And yes, I see he clearly has some issues going on but I can’t see how they’re related to her.
He’s had depression before, it sounds like he may need another chat with a doctor. She seems like the one actual positive he’s got going on. I’d think very carefully before attempting to take that away from him, because right now he has someone who loves him, family and a support system and future to look forward to. After that, he’s just got you, and right now all you’re offering is criticism of his state of mind and life partner.
And yes, I do get that you’re concerned but it should be about the memory lapses, not your personal opinion of his bride.
posted by Jubey at 3:30 AM on August 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
If you ask me, she’s the one thing he’s actually got going for him. He’s enjoying summer, she’s got a family he hangs out with, she gets him out of the house and forces him to get his act together. And yes, I see he clearly has some issues going on but I can’t see how they’re related to her.
He’s had depression before, it sounds like he may need another chat with a doctor. She seems like the one actual positive he’s got going on. I’d think very carefully before attempting to take that away from him, because right now he has someone who loves him, family and a support system and future to look forward to. After that, he’s just got you, and right now all you’re offering is criticism of his state of mind and life partner.
And yes, I do get that you’re concerned but it should be about the memory lapses, not your personal opinion of his bride.
posted by Jubey at 3:30 AM on August 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
You've noticed a change in his behavior that you're concerned about, but just because it seems to have coincided with the timeline of his relationship doesn't mean the relationship caused it. You don't know the cause and effect here--his lack of enthusiasm for the relationship could be caused by his depression, not the other way around.
You've discussed depression and mental health with him in the past so of course you can discuss it with him now. Your concerns about the medication he is on and his depression seem valid; people's bodies change, circumstances change and the same medication doesn't always work forever. That is what you can talk to him about. I would leave the relationship out of it unless he brings it up.
posted by Polychrome at 4:30 AM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
You've discussed depression and mental health with him in the past so of course you can discuss it with him now. Your concerns about the medication he is on and his depression seem valid; people's bodies change, circumstances change and the same medication doesn't always work forever. That is what you can talk to him about. I would leave the relationship out of it unless he brings it up.
posted by Polychrome at 4:30 AM on August 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think you should definitely talk to him about the concerning changes you are seeing while leaving the engagement out of it. You can tell him you've been worried, that he seems checked out and not very happy, etc. If he's willing to talk about that with you, fine. If not, you can gently press him to talk to his doc/therapist about this stuff.
If you do try to talk to him about the engagement you could say something like this "I remember you being pretty ambivalent about dating X and now that you're engaged you don't seem very happy - you seem checked out and disengaged. Is this marriage what you really want?"
Do not say anything at all negative about the fiance. Be prepared for bringing it up to have an impact on your relationship. Be prepared for him to ignore your concerns and get married anyway.
Regardless, his decisions are not in any way your fault and you cannot take responsibility for them.
posted by bunderful at 5:12 AM on August 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you do try to talk to him about the engagement you could say something like this "I remember you being pretty ambivalent about dating X and now that you're engaged you don't seem very happy - you seem checked out and disengaged. Is this marriage what you really want?"
Do not say anything at all negative about the fiance. Be prepared for bringing it up to have an impact on your relationship. Be prepared for him to ignore your concerns and get married anyway.
Regardless, his decisions are not in any way your fault and you cannot take responsibility for them.
posted by bunderful at 5:12 AM on August 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think that, if you do decide to discuss this with him, you’ll get more traction if you stop referring to a grown-ass woman as “a girl” and erase misogynist phrases like “wears the pants” from your vocabulary. Those things might seem small, but they very much give the impression that you look down women in general and this one in particular, which will automatically put your friend on the defensive.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:27 AM on August 19, 2018 [58 favorites]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:27 AM on August 19, 2018 [58 favorites]
These are the parts that worry me:
He's basically disengaged from all of his friends. And old hobbies and interests.
and
He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits.
When I've been in bad relationships, I've stopped making art. It's a huge warning sign. This I would want to talk to him about. See if you can get coffee or a beer or something sometime and just be like, "hey, I'm really happy for you that things are going so well with [partner], but there's something I'm concerned about and I wanted to check in with you..." and then talk about how you know things change for people in relationships but you miss hanging out with him and you know he always loved [hobby] and you're concerned about how he's doing. This will let you segue into checking in about his mental health and the level of sugar consumption.
You can't tell him who to marry, but you can support him to be mentally healthy and try to hang out a little more.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:50 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
He's basically disengaged from all of his friends. And old hobbies and interests.
and
He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits.
When I've been in bad relationships, I've stopped making art. It's a huge warning sign. This I would want to talk to him about. See if you can get coffee or a beer or something sometime and just be like, "hey, I'm really happy for you that things are going so well with [partner], but there's something I'm concerned about and I wanted to check in with you..." and then talk about how you know things change for people in relationships but you miss hanging out with him and you know he always loved [hobby] and you're concerned about how he's doing. This will let you segue into checking in about his mental health and the level of sugar consumption.
You can't tell him who to marry, but you can support him to be mentally healthy and try to hang out a little more.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:50 AM on August 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have a friend, and for a long time I regarded his relationship as you regard your friend's - they're a bad match, she's wedding and baby crazy and he doesn't want kids, they spend a lot of time with her family...
A lot of that was that my friend was working out some personal stuff, some within the relationship, some just kinda at the same time. He is so much happier now, almost a decade into his relationship with his now-wife. I got to know his wife a bit better and she's fantastic. I was just getting the negative stuff because I was a safe person to tell it to, their relationship also contained a lot of good that I didn't see as much of until recently.
posted by momus_window at 10:26 AM on August 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
A lot of that was that my friend was working out some personal stuff, some within the relationship, some just kinda at the same time. He is so much happier now, almost a decade into his relationship with his now-wife. I got to know his wife a bit better and she's fantastic. I was just getting the negative stuff because I was a safe person to tell it to, their relationship also contained a lot of good that I didn't see as much of until recently.
posted by momus_window at 10:26 AM on August 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
I suggested a slightly out of the way antidepressant that I had had good luck with years before. . . .
...
He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits. We went out to dinner the other night but he refused to order dinner for himself. He then proceeded to eat candy and ice cream.
Among the atypical antipsychotics, Seroquel at least is notorious for causing people to gain weight and crave sweets, and you might point that out to him if it's relevant -- but really, you should tell her, and maybe the two of you working together could help him more effectively than either one alone.
posted by jamjam at 10:57 AM on August 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
...
He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time and has resumed his old disordered eating habits. We went out to dinner the other night but he refused to order dinner for himself. He then proceeded to eat candy and ice cream.
Among the atypical antipsychotics, Seroquel at least is notorious for causing people to gain weight and crave sweets, and you might point that out to him if it's relevant -- but really, you should tell her, and maybe the two of you working together could help him more effectively than either one alone.
posted by jamjam at 10:57 AM on August 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: So it seemed that I kinda pushed a button with this question which wasn't my intention. Or at least it wasn't the button I intended to push! While I really appreciate the sensible and sympathetic answers, I'm going to try to write more here to clarify a bit. Because people have questions and I don't want you to be left with the wrong impression of me, him or her. So here goes:
1.) I'm female. I'm also a feminist but I don't think one should use that term to cover all manner of sins. Manipulation is manipulation- no matter the genders involved.
2.) Speaking of which, this scenario just happens to contain a strong woman and a sensitive, passive guy. But it could just as easily be reversed- strong guy who's baby crazy and arty, submissive girl. Or two guys. Or two girls. Of varying levels of dominance, submission and more importantly introversion and extroversion. Feel free to imagine whatever makes you more comfortable. But if you think this is about gender, I think you're missing the point.
3.) I am not trying to break them up. In retrospect, I realize the title was a bit click-baity. But if you read the post, you'll see that I'm trying to do little more than broach a conversation to make sure that he's thought it all through. Because he doesn't seem to be doing much thinking lately.
4.) I did not make him take any medication. As some of you rightly pointed out, I don't have the qualifications to do that. That's why he was under the care of a psychiatrist while all this was going on. Presumably they then had a conversation about it that did not include me and in her medical estimation, she still thought it was worth trying. I have already asked him about how he's doing on the medication and he thinks it's fine. He doesn't make the connection between the med + the brain fog, sugar cravings, weight gain + flat affect. Neither does his fiancee.
5.) The reason many of you feel sympathetic towards his fiancee is that she is not unsympathetic. She's not the villain of the piece. There are no villains. I described her as being nice (she is), acknowledged that she takes him of his practical needs well (she does), all while dealing with her own serious health issues. But that doesn't mean that they're necessarily right for each other.
6.) I'm not sure if the medication, the depression and the engagement are related or are just running on parallel tracks but ultimately not connected. That's why I asked. It's tricky.
7.) I didn't want to get into the medication but I guess it's worth it if someone can definitively
tell me what the longterm neuro chemical implications are so.....it's Wellbutrin XL generic. From the cursory Googling I've done, people seem to do really well on it, even many years on. So again, confusing.
8.) Because I'm already here and it's really bugging me, I want to say that in my original post I used the term 'ambiguous'. Twice. What I meant to say was ambivalent. Whoops! (I was tired.)
posted by ChickenBear at 2:31 PM on August 19, 2018
1.) I'm female. I'm also a feminist but I don't think one should use that term to cover all manner of sins. Manipulation is manipulation- no matter the genders involved.
2.) Speaking of which, this scenario just happens to contain a strong woman and a sensitive, passive guy. But it could just as easily be reversed- strong guy who's baby crazy and arty, submissive girl. Or two guys. Or two girls. Of varying levels of dominance, submission and more importantly introversion and extroversion. Feel free to imagine whatever makes you more comfortable. But if you think this is about gender, I think you're missing the point.
3.) I am not trying to break them up. In retrospect, I realize the title was a bit click-baity. But if you read the post, you'll see that I'm trying to do little more than broach a conversation to make sure that he's thought it all through. Because he doesn't seem to be doing much thinking lately.
4.) I did not make him take any medication. As some of you rightly pointed out, I don't have the qualifications to do that. That's why he was under the care of a psychiatrist while all this was going on. Presumably they then had a conversation about it that did not include me and in her medical estimation, she still thought it was worth trying. I have already asked him about how he's doing on the medication and he thinks it's fine. He doesn't make the connection between the med + the brain fog, sugar cravings, weight gain + flat affect. Neither does his fiancee.
5.) The reason many of you feel sympathetic towards his fiancee is that she is not unsympathetic. She's not the villain of the piece. There are no villains. I described her as being nice (she is), acknowledged that she takes him of his practical needs well (she does), all while dealing with her own serious health issues. But that doesn't mean that they're necessarily right for each other.
6.) I'm not sure if the medication, the depression and the engagement are related or are just running on parallel tracks but ultimately not connected. That's why I asked. It's tricky.
7.) I didn't want to get into the medication but I guess it's worth it if someone can definitively
tell me what the longterm neuro chemical implications are so.....it's Wellbutrin XL generic. From the cursory Googling I've done, people seem to do really well on it, even many years on. So again, confusing.
8.) Because I'm already here and it's really bugging me, I want to say that in my original post I used the term 'ambiguous'. Twice. What I meant to say was ambivalent. Whoops! (I was tired.)
posted by ChickenBear at 2:31 PM on August 19, 2018
I’m female... But if you think this is about gender, I think you're missing the point.
Your gender is irrelevant. Women are just as capable as men of feeling insidious misogyny. Don’t use your own gender to justify nastiness like “a girl” and “wears the pants.”
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:34 PM on August 19, 2018 [25 favorites]
Your gender is irrelevant. Women are just as capable as men of feeling insidious misogyny. Don’t use your own gender to justify nastiness like “a girl” and “wears the pants.”
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:34 PM on August 19, 2018 [25 favorites]
I'd be more worried about the affect and the weight gain than the woman. In fact I'd mention these concerns to the woman; if she is indeed so in charge of him, then she's probably the one with the influence to get him back to the doctor. Sometimes meds need changing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:03 PM on August 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:03 PM on August 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think all this talk about the girl and the marriage is bollocks.
The guy has a history of depression which leaves us with two cases:
1) His depression is not being successfully treated. In this case someone needs to make sure his support structure knows this. That can be as simple as saying "You seem depressed, have you talked to your psychiatrist lately?"
2) His depression is being successfully treated. In this case he is just making decisions that you think are incorrect. As a friend you are allowed to tell him that, but as others have said you’re best off saying things once and then shutting your mouth forever after.
Also: I have two different college friends — both of whom I love dearly — who I never hear from unless relationship crap is going down. I used to think it was flattering that they felt we still had this deep connection, but in fact what I offer is a lack of connection to their current life. I’m a safe outlet.
So I wouldn’t be too certain that you have the inside skinny of what your friend is thinking. If you have also been an outlet you’ll have a very skewed view of things.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:10 PM on August 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
The guy has a history of depression which leaves us with two cases:
1) His depression is not being successfully treated. In this case someone needs to make sure his support structure knows this. That can be as simple as saying "You seem depressed, have you talked to your psychiatrist lately?"
2) His depression is being successfully treated. In this case he is just making decisions that you think are incorrect. As a friend you are allowed to tell him that, but as others have said you’re best off saying things once and then shutting your mouth forever after.
Also: I have two different college friends — both of whom I love dearly — who I never hear from unless relationship crap is going down. I used to think it was flattering that they felt we still had this deep connection, but in fact what I offer is a lack of connection to their current life. I’m a safe outlet.
So I wouldn’t be too certain that you have the inside skinny of what your friend is thinking. If you have also been an outlet you’ll have a very skewed view of things.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:10 PM on August 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
It sounds like there are two separate situations; one of which you may not be able to do anything about, but one that you can. And the one that you can is:
"...Hey, buddy, you've seemed a little out of it lately. Sometimes meds can stop working that well, have you considered talking to your doctor about checking things out there?"
I'd leave the marriage thing alone. Be there if it falls down and goes boom, of course, but stand back. The concern about the spacey/out of it/flat affect is a separate thing, and one that you are within your rights to express concern over; let him choose how to handle that one too, but it wouldn't be as much of an overstep, I think, to say something about it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
"...Hey, buddy, you've seemed a little out of it lately. Sometimes meds can stop working that well, have you considered talking to your doctor about checking things out there?"
I'd leave the marriage thing alone. Be there if it falls down and goes boom, of course, but stand back. The concern about the spacey/out of it/flat affect is a separate thing, and one that you are within your rights to express concern over; let him choose how to handle that one too, but it wouldn't be as much of an overstep, I think, to say something about it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on August 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
He's gained a lot of weight and is craving sugar and sweets all the time
I didn't want to get into the medication but I guess it's worth it if someone can definitively tell me what the longterm neuro chemical implications are so.....it's Wellbutrin XL generic.
All antidepressant medications can stop working, due to tolerance to the drug over time or other factors. The "Prozac poop-out" is a well known occurrence. Wellbutrin can also stop working.
The generic version of Wellbutrin XL has long-standing problems with accurate time-release of the active ingredient.
Anecdotally, I took Wellbutrin XL for depression for about 2 years. I encountered the following problems which are eerily similar to some of your friend's issues:
1. The generic version of XL caused problems with inconsistent delivery, resulting in alternating episodes of lethargy and speediness. I asked my doctor to put me back on the brand-name version even though it was more expensive, and the brand-name worked perfectly.
2. Until it didn't: the Wellbutrin dramatically stopped working about 1.5 years in. I also had insane cravings for sweets, especially candy, and I gained about 15 lbs over the last 6 months I was on the drug.
I researched online extensively why the Wellbutrin stopped working, and found a theory that the initial boost a person receives from Wellbutrin is because Wellbutrin inhibits reuptake and recycling of dopamine and norepinephrine, which means that these "feel-good" chemicals stay in the bloodstream in elevated levels, resulting in the lift out of depression. However, as one stays on the drug, the dopamine and norepinephrine molecules age and break down, and since they have not been recycled through the reuptake process, there is a rebound effect of lowered dopamine and norepinephrine, leading back into depression. As this happens, a sugar or carb craving is not uncommon, as the body tries to gain the basic building blocks needed for these neurotransmitters.
(Sorry I have no cites - I can't re-find the research right away - it was obscure.)
posted by Ardea alba at 12:48 PM on August 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
I didn't want to get into the medication but I guess it's worth it if someone can definitively tell me what the longterm neuro chemical implications are so.....it's Wellbutrin XL generic.
All antidepressant medications can stop working, due to tolerance to the drug over time or other factors. The "Prozac poop-out" is a well known occurrence. Wellbutrin can also stop working.
The generic version of Wellbutrin XL has long-standing problems with accurate time-release of the active ingredient.
Anecdotally, I took Wellbutrin XL for depression for about 2 years. I encountered the following problems which are eerily similar to some of your friend's issues:
1. The generic version of XL caused problems with inconsistent delivery, resulting in alternating episodes of lethargy and speediness. I asked my doctor to put me back on the brand-name version even though it was more expensive, and the brand-name worked perfectly.
2. Until it didn't: the Wellbutrin dramatically stopped working about 1.5 years in. I also had insane cravings for sweets, especially candy, and I gained about 15 lbs over the last 6 months I was on the drug.
I researched online extensively why the Wellbutrin stopped working, and found a theory that the initial boost a person receives from Wellbutrin is because Wellbutrin inhibits reuptake and recycling of dopamine and norepinephrine, which means that these "feel-good" chemicals stay in the bloodstream in elevated levels, resulting in the lift out of depression. However, as one stays on the drug, the dopamine and norepinephrine molecules age and break down, and since they have not been recycled through the reuptake process, there is a rebound effect of lowered dopamine and norepinephrine, leading back into depression. As this happens, a sugar or carb craving is not uncommon, as the body tries to gain the basic building blocks needed for these neurotransmitters.
(Sorry I have no cites - I can't re-find the research right away - it was obscure.)
posted by Ardea alba at 12:48 PM on August 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
You're overthinking this.
If you're concerned about his well-being reach out to him in some way--preferrably by phone or text asking if he can get lunch--and then ask if he's okay. Tell him he's seemed off lately and say that you just wanted to check in. Cue conversation. If he says he's fine make it clear that if he needs anything you're there for him, and then go on your merry little way.
This is all you can do. The other details are not relevant.
posted by Amy93 at 1:35 PM on August 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you're concerned about his well-being reach out to him in some way--preferrably by phone or text asking if he can get lunch--and then ask if he's okay. Tell him he's seemed off lately and say that you just wanted to check in. Cue conversation. If he says he's fine make it clear that if he needs anything you're there for him, and then go on your merry little way.
This is all you can do. The other details are not relevant.
posted by Amy93 at 1:35 PM on August 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
please share anything else you learn about generic wellbutrin xl. I am currently taking it with no plans to stop.
posted by scose at 3:06 AM on August 21, 2018
posted by scose at 3:06 AM on August 21, 2018
scose, not all generics are the same on buproprion (generic Wellbutrin). They don't know exactly why, but it is thought to be the filler ingredients that mess with the time release. I had this happen to me when my online pharmacy switched to one that did not work for me. The FDA has pulled various generic Wellbutrin's over the years, you can google those.
https://consumer.healthday.com/mental-health-information-25/depression-news-176/fda-pulls-one-generic-form-of-wellbutrin-off-the-market-671354.html
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:47 AM on August 21, 2018
https://consumer.healthday.com/mental-health-information-25/depression-news-176/fda-pulls-one-generic-form-of-wellbutrin-off-the-market-671354.html
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:47 AM on August 21, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by The otter lady at 10:14 PM on August 18, 2018 [17 favorites]