Difficult friend situation
July 16, 2018 5:24 AM Subscribe
One of my friends just married a self-proclaimed Nazi. I'm not sure what to do with the friendship after this - help, please?
I have this friend I met online around ten years ago because we were both writing fanfiction for the same series. We're both German and in our twenties (she's two years younger than me) with master's degrees, although I have spent around half of my twenties so far abroad and not in Germany. We're from different cities and only met in person once, but keep in contact online, although less than we used to.
We have always gotten along very well because we were both late bloomers and loved reading and writing, although there was the occasional fight about things. I have a memory of her telling me over chat that she was sick of all the education on the holocaust in Germany and if the Jews couldn't let it rest now, but I've been going through our chat lot and can't find that message anymore, so I'm not 100% sure I didn't make it up. (Although why would I?) None of my German friends know that I had a Jewish grandfather who barely survived Auschwitz, because I grew up scared of telling people (not quite unfounded it seems).
Her first boyfriend was abusive, and when she got out of that relationship, she went on a date with a new guy, who according to her had told her on their first date that he was "a bit of a Nazi". I asked if she had gotten up and left, and she said he meant it as a joke. I don't think people who aren't Nazis joke that they are on first dates (or ever), but I admit I'm not unbiased in that regard, obviously. Over the course of the relationship she told me that the guy also had some problems with substance abuse and driving or something similar.
Reader, she married him last weekend. I didn't send any message congratulating them (nor for her birthday a few days later) and she's now messaging me, asking how I am, because I'm sure she's wondering what's up. I haven't replied to her yet and my non-Aryan husband says I should just ignore her, but I feel bad because... I think I at least owe her an explanation? Or maybe I'm hoping if I make it clear that she's losing friends because of him, she'll think about it? But she's already married him, and a part of me thinks that if she was okay with dating a self-proclaimed Nazi, it says something about her own beliefs. I know she's had a rough life, but so have many other who don't turn to xenophobia.
We may have just grown apart over the years, or - and this sounds really arrogant - I grew and she didn't. She's still writing, although not fanfiction anymore, and she's still writing women other than the protagonist the same way she used to when we were ten years younger, like the mean girls who wronged her in high school: they're all kind of "slutty" (not my choice of words) and superficial, and I wonder if that's what she thinks about me. (She once said I slept with my now-husband too early. I was 24 and had known him for three months.) This probably isn't anything I'd mention in my message to her, but it has been bothering me a little. I'm also kind of sad about losing one of my friends, but at this point we're probably not great friends anymore.
What do you all think I should do here? If I owe her a message, and I feel like I do, what should I write? I need your help.
I have this friend I met online around ten years ago because we were both writing fanfiction for the same series. We're both German and in our twenties (she's two years younger than me) with master's degrees, although I have spent around half of my twenties so far abroad and not in Germany. We're from different cities and only met in person once, but keep in contact online, although less than we used to.
We have always gotten along very well because we were both late bloomers and loved reading and writing, although there was the occasional fight about things. I have a memory of her telling me over chat that she was sick of all the education on the holocaust in Germany and if the Jews couldn't let it rest now, but I've been going through our chat lot and can't find that message anymore, so I'm not 100% sure I didn't make it up. (Although why would I?) None of my German friends know that I had a Jewish grandfather who barely survived Auschwitz, because I grew up scared of telling people (not quite unfounded it seems).
Her first boyfriend was abusive, and when she got out of that relationship, she went on a date with a new guy, who according to her had told her on their first date that he was "a bit of a Nazi". I asked if she had gotten up and left, and she said he meant it as a joke. I don't think people who aren't Nazis joke that they are on first dates (or ever), but I admit I'm not unbiased in that regard, obviously. Over the course of the relationship she told me that the guy also had some problems with substance abuse and driving or something similar.
Reader, she married him last weekend. I didn't send any message congratulating them (nor for her birthday a few days later) and she's now messaging me, asking how I am, because I'm sure she's wondering what's up. I haven't replied to her yet and my non-Aryan husband says I should just ignore her, but I feel bad because... I think I at least owe her an explanation? Or maybe I'm hoping if I make it clear that she's losing friends because of him, she'll think about it? But she's already married him, and a part of me thinks that if she was okay with dating a self-proclaimed Nazi, it says something about her own beliefs. I know she's had a rough life, but so have many other who don't turn to xenophobia.
We may have just grown apart over the years, or - and this sounds really arrogant - I grew and she didn't. She's still writing, although not fanfiction anymore, and she's still writing women other than the protagonist the same way she used to when we were ten years younger, like the mean girls who wronged her in high school: they're all kind of "slutty" (not my choice of words) and superficial, and I wonder if that's what she thinks about me. (She once said I slept with my now-husband too early. I was 24 and had known him for three months.) This probably isn't anything I'd mention in my message to her, but it has been bothering me a little. I'm also kind of sad about losing one of my friends, but at this point we're probably not great friends anymore.
What do you all think I should do here? If I owe her a message, and I feel like I do, what should I write? I need your help.
No, fuck her. She can go to hell. You owe her nothing.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:57 AM on July 16, 2018 [47 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:57 AM on July 16, 2018 [47 favorites]
Best answer: Hold on. The only evidence you have that she married a Nazi is a comment he made on their first date, which she said was a joke? You could easily be missing context and it could’ve actually been a joke. It would be a shame to jump to a conclusion about something as important as this based on one comment that was possibly a joke. In all likelihood, he didn’t actually literally mean he was a Nazi. (And if he really is a Nazi, would he describe himself as “a bit of” one?)
What do you have to lose by talking to your friend to get the whole story? If you find out her / her husband’s beliefs are as you fear, you can still end the friendship and you won’t wonder “what if”.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:06 AM on July 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
What do you have to lose by talking to your friend to get the whole story? If you find out her / her husband’s beliefs are as you fear, you can still end the friendship and you won’t wonder “what if”.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:06 AM on July 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
Why not talk to your friend? You said that you remember her telling you her now-husband joked about being a Nazi on the first date, but
now can't find evidence of that and are not sure it happened. Isn't this worth confirming? I think even joking about being a Nazi is unacceptable, but you might want to make sure there's evidence of that happening. Also, i had a friend in an abusive relationship with a guy who turned out to be racist and misogynistic. She eventually got out, and appreciated tbe suppprt of friends. Just something to consider although you aren't under obligation to remain friends.
posted by bearette at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
now can't find evidence of that and are not sure it happened. Isn't this worth confirming? I think even joking about being a Nazi is unacceptable, but you might want to make sure there's evidence of that happening. Also, i had a friend in an abusive relationship with a guy who turned out to be racist and misogynistic. She eventually got out, and appreciated tbe suppprt of friends. Just something to consider although you aren't under obligation to remain friends.
posted by bearette at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: People who aren't Nazis don't joke about being Nazis. I'm also going to argue that good people don't complain about how Jewish people should just ~let it go~ about the Holocaust. She sounds toxic and kind of awful, even apart from her choice of partner--who also sounds toxic and awful. I don't think that you owe her a damn thing.
If you wanted to respond with an 'Oh gosh, so busy, sorry!' and never get back to her, you could, but I think that you're well within your rights to block her and move on.
I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this.
posted by mishafletch at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
If you wanted to respond with an 'Oh gosh, so busy, sorry!' and never get back to her, you could, but I think that you're well within your rights to block her and move on.
I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this.
posted by mishafletch at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
It sounds like you are casual friends with a Holocaust denier who married a like-minded person. People don't drop tidbits like "well, the first date was nice... we talked about our cats and our years at school, and oh he mentioned something about the extermination of all lesser races," unless it's something they're OK with. Unless you want to support her in her Nazi-ing, you need to DTMFA. You can message her about your decision if you like, though I've found that friend-breakups generate a ton of drama when done explicitly over the internet. Unless you feel strongly that you owe her an explanation, it's probably best to just not reply to the message, and let her infer what she will.
posted by Mayor West at 6:15 AM on July 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 6:15 AM on July 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: a part of me thinks that if she was okay with dating a self-proclaimed Nazi, it says something about her own beliefs.
Listen to that part of you. I would reply with "You married a NAZI?!", as I think it's past time for people to start saying things like "You married a NAZI?!" to people who marry Nazis. But you owe her nothing; it sounds like the friendship was naturally dying off anyway.
posted by headnsouth at 6:16 AM on July 16, 2018 [25 favorites]
Listen to that part of you. I would reply with "You married a NAZI?!", as I think it's past time for people to start saying things like "You married a NAZI?!" to people who marry Nazis. But you owe her nothing; it sounds like the friendship was naturally dying off anyway.
posted by headnsouth at 6:16 AM on July 16, 2018 [25 favorites]
The associations in Germany are undoubtedly different, but in the US there is a satirical usage of the word "Nazi" to mean someone who is overly strict and punitive about things that aren't actually important. See, for example, the Soup Nazi.
I wouldn't break off contact based on this one comment, which you heard second-hand and which was described as a joke. I also don't think it's fair for you to describe her husband as a "self-proclaimed Nazi" based on this one second-hand comment. You don't know him at all. You don't know her in RL.
If you value the friendship, I think it's fine for you to maintain contact with her and learn more about her current life and husband. If it turns out that he really is, in truth, a Nazi, you can break things off then.
But I say all this as an American. Your mileage as Germans may be different.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:18 AM on July 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I wouldn't break off contact based on this one comment, which you heard second-hand and which was described as a joke. I also don't think it's fair for you to describe her husband as a "self-proclaimed Nazi" based on this one second-hand comment. You don't know him at all. You don't know her in RL.
If you value the friendship, I think it's fine for you to maintain contact with her and learn more about her current life and husband. If it turns out that he really is, in truth, a Nazi, you can break things off then.
But I say all this as an American. Your mileage as Germans may be different.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:18 AM on July 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
You owe it to yourself to give her a message. You're better than someone who won't have a difficult conversation with someone because you're afraid of conflict when it's over a life and death matter like being a Nazi. If people don't get feedback when they do messed up stuff like marrying a Nazi it gets normalised. You're better than someone who will put their head in the sand over this.
posted by Mistress at 6:21 AM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Mistress at 6:21 AM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Agree that you don’t know what he meant. It could have been a stupid, tasteless joke about being a control freak. (I am not German, but I could see an immature American kid saying this as a joke. In the US, people use terms like “grammar Nazi”. It is simply not true that decent Americans don’t use Nazi as a joke.) On preview, as Winnie the Proust says.
I think that if you have any interest in being friends, you have to ask.
posted by FencingGal at 6:22 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think that if you have any interest in being friends, you have to ask.
posted by FencingGal at 6:22 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: To clarify: I can't find the comment about Jewish history anymore, but I definitely found the one where he "joked" about being a Nazi. (And in Germany, we don't use it like "grammar Nazi", which frankly I think is pretty offensive anyway.)
I wrote back at that time saying that he didn't sound right for her, and she told me that he was actually really nice, just had "bad friends", regretted that "joke", and even after some time came around to supporting her depression (yeah?), but still drank too much and drove drunk, and apparently still can't keep a job, obviously through no fault of his own. I've never met the guy, so who knows. (Maybe he said some iffy things at work?)
I am definitely someone who speaks out against this kind of thing, but it feels weird to do it now after I was pretty passive about the marriage (although I only commented on her dress, not on the groom) and I also think that she probably won't react like I want her to.
posted by LoonyLovegood at 6:23 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wrote back at that time saying that he didn't sound right for her, and she told me that he was actually really nice, just had "bad friends", regretted that "joke", and even after some time came around to supporting her depression (yeah?), but still drank too much and drove drunk, and apparently still can't keep a job, obviously through no fault of his own. I've never met the guy, so who knows. (Maybe he said some iffy things at work?)
I am definitely someone who speaks out against this kind of thing, but it feels weird to do it now after I was pretty passive about the marriage (although I only commented on her dress, not on the groom) and I also think that she probably won't react like I want her to.
posted by LoonyLovegood at 6:23 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ugh - my initial reaction based on the headline was closer to chesty_a_arthur - before i read below the fold.
The core problem is that you have second hand evidence that the person she married holds white nationalist beliefs. You have first hand evidence that she's said shitty things about Jewish people in the past, but can't be sure it was her. Her inability to write strong or interesting female characters is evidence that she's might not have the best history with balanced relationship dynamics.
Look - there's a lot of people in this world. You can either clarify her beliefs by communicating with her, or assume the evidence you have is enough and walk away. I'd say that the two red flags would be enough for me to steer clear, but I'm not you.
If you want to gather more evidence to confirm your belief, have her out for coffee and tell her that the things she said have grated on you, and you need to know for sure.
It is OK to grow apart and not 'save' everyone, and focus on your own self improvement and current relationships, and not reply to her mail.
Else - what's your best possible outcome here?
That said, this is a tough situation and I hope you find peace in the resolution. Best luck.
posted by enfa at 6:28 AM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
The core problem is that you have second hand evidence that the person she married holds white nationalist beliefs. You have first hand evidence that she's said shitty things about Jewish people in the past, but can't be sure it was her. Her inability to write strong or interesting female characters is evidence that she's might not have the best history with balanced relationship dynamics.
Look - there's a lot of people in this world. You can either clarify her beliefs by communicating with her, or assume the evidence you have is enough and walk away. I'd say that the two red flags would be enough for me to steer clear, but I'm not you.
If you want to gather more evidence to confirm your belief, have her out for coffee and tell her that the things she said have grated on you, and you need to know for sure.
It is OK to grow apart and not 'save' everyone, and focus on your own self improvement and current relationships, and not reply to her mail.
Else - what's your best possible outcome here?
That said, this is a tough situation and I hope you find peace in the resolution. Best luck.
posted by enfa at 6:28 AM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
You've only met once and it doesn't even look like you were invited to her wedding, so I wouldn't call her a friend.
Just ghost her by responding to one message in three, then in one in five... she'll get the hint. But whatever you do, you don't owe her an explanation.
posted by Kwadeng at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just ghost her by responding to one message in three, then in one in five... she'll get the hint. But whatever you do, you don't owe her an explanation.
posted by Kwadeng at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Last one, I promise!
I was invited to the wedding, but couldn't go due to logistics. And, frankly, not wanting to expose my Japanese husband to the "bad friends".
posted by LoonyLovegood at 6:32 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was invited to the wedding, but couldn't go due to logistics. And, frankly, not wanting to expose my Japanese husband to the "bad friends".
posted by LoonyLovegood at 6:32 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, if you're German people don't joke about being a nazi. Hell, I can't imagine a single instance where "I'm a bit of a nazi" is a joke - unless it's in the context of, say, "when collecting invoices" (which is very poor taste, but less disturbing) which I'm sure both she and you would have written if that was the actual context.
However, she is not going to re-think her life choices based on your reaction to her description of her first date, you know? You're not going to reach her. I would let this go, I don't think anything you say to her is going to make *you* feel better, which is the only reason to do so.
Personally I'd either block her or just go with something like "I'm sorry, I think we've grown apart."
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:33 AM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
However, she is not going to re-think her life choices based on your reaction to her description of her first date, you know? You're not going to reach her. I would let this go, I don't think anything you say to her is going to make *you* feel better, which is the only reason to do so.
Personally I'd either block her or just go with something like "I'm sorry, I think we've grown apart."
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:33 AM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Look, I think you're awesome and I only know you through mefi activity. I want you to only spend your time and energy on other awesome people who aren't fucking Nazis or fucking Nazi apologists or fucking goddamn holocaust deniers. That seems... not unreasonable, no?
Ghost her if you're comfortable with that - it might be the way with the least friction and is entirely common with online friends. If you can't ghost her, send her a line about having a hard time keeping in touch because of nonspecific lifestyle changes (hers? yours? who cares!) and be conspicuously bad at replying in a timely manner until she stops contacting you.
posted by Mizu at 6:42 AM on July 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
Ghost her if you're comfortable with that - it might be the way with the least friction and is entirely common with online friends. If you can't ghost her, send her a line about having a hard time keeping in touch because of nonspecific lifestyle changes (hers? yours? who cares!) and be conspicuously bad at replying in a timely manner until she stops contacting you.
posted by Mizu at 6:42 AM on July 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Have you considered disclosing your family story about Auschwitz to this person? If she cares about you, it might eventually make her reconsider her casual cruelty about the Holocaust. Of course, if she doesn’t care about you you’ll find that out in short order - so you’ll have to consider whether it’s worth the hurt (and whether it’s even safe for you! I can’t tell if these people are the sort to, like, mail you a pipe bomb). But a ten year friendship does give you an opportunity.
I might be tempted to put the information in an email parting ways. “Friend, I’ve been quiet since your wedding because something you once told me about your husband gave me pause. I remember when you first started dating he said he was ‘a little bit of a Nazi.’ I know you said he was joking but I’ve never known another German to joke about that. I’ve never told you this, because I don’t tell many people, but my grandfather was Jewish and he was at Auschwitz, and nearly died there. So even if your husband was truly joking, it’s not ever going to be a laughing matter to me or something I can treat lightly. I can’t congratulate you on marriage to a man who sympathizes with the regime that tried to murder my family. I’ve given this a lot of thought and I think it is best that we part ways.”
posted by eirias at 6:52 AM on July 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
I might be tempted to put the information in an email parting ways. “Friend, I’ve been quiet since your wedding because something you once told me about your husband gave me pause. I remember when you first started dating he said he was ‘a little bit of a Nazi.’ I know you said he was joking but I’ve never known another German to joke about that. I’ve never told you this, because I don’t tell many people, but my grandfather was Jewish and he was at Auschwitz, and nearly died there. So even if your husband was truly joking, it’s not ever going to be a laughing matter to me or something I can treat lightly. I can’t congratulate you on marriage to a man who sympathizes with the regime that tried to murder my family. I’ve given this a lot of thought and I think it is best that we part ways.”
posted by eirias at 6:52 AM on July 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
Best answer: She once stated to you that she thinks the Holocaust is something Jews should get over.
She judged you openly for having sex with your significant other 'too quickly.'
She married someone who joked about being a Nazi/is possibly a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer.
She married someone who drives drunk.
She married someone who has 'bad friends' and you stated you feel uncomfortable introducing your Japanese husband to them.
I don't know why you want to consider this person your friend?
Drop her and the shitty people she associates with, you're better than all of this.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:24 AM on July 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
She judged you openly for having sex with your significant other 'too quickly.'
She married someone who joked about being a Nazi/is possibly a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer.
She married someone who drives drunk.
She married someone who has 'bad friends' and you stated you feel uncomfortable introducing your Japanese husband to them.
I don't know why you want to consider this person your friend?
Drop her and the shitty people she associates with, you're better than all of this.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:24 AM on July 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
(I read below the fold and stand by my position with respect to your friend, her fiancé, and the fascist-ass horse they rode in on.)
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:29 AM on July 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:29 AM on July 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Ghost her very carefully because you don't want to make yourself in any way vulnerable online to someone who may have nazi sympathies. Those people are dangerous and spiteful, please make sure your online anonymity is preserved as far as possible.
posted by glasseyes at 7:31 AM on July 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by glasseyes at 7:31 AM on July 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
I also think that she probably won't react like I want her to.
With your clarification, this does seem like someone you should just drop. If you want to mention your personal history, it might eventually do her some good, but I think you're right that a discussion is not going to be satisfying for you in any way right now.
posted by FencingGal at 7:48 AM on July 16, 2018
With your clarification, this does seem like someone you should just drop. If you want to mention your personal history, it might eventually do her some good, but I think you're right that a discussion is not going to be satisfying for you in any way right now.
posted by FencingGal at 7:48 AM on July 16, 2018
Best answer: Yes, I would specifically avoid telling her that you had a Jewish grandfather, but in general concern for your safety (online and off) makes me very hesitant to recommend telling her any particulars at all. This is the kind of advice, frankly, that people who haven't grown up Jewish would give to someone. You have no obligation to her and every obligation to protect yourself and your family.
posted by Mizu at 7:50 AM on July 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 7:50 AM on July 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
If this only ever came up once I would be worried I was misinterpreting things. But, it definitely sounds like there are a number of things about this friendship that aren’t working for you. For me, even if a lot has changed and there are a number of things bothering me, it’s still hard to end a relationship for without some kind of breaking point. Marrying a nazi is a great breaking point, but you don't need to be 100% sure of that fact in order to stop being her friend. Plenty of other stuff has already shown that this relationship is in decline. You don't owe her a message or explanation. You are already drifting apart - just let it happen.
posted by Garm at 8:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Garm at 8:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You have no obligations to her. I understand the impulse to feel like you have to explain why you're cutting a friendship loose, and I often think that it's worth doing so you can feel okay about leaving on your own terms, however unlikely that the other person will respond well. But not when it could endanger your own safety, and in this case it could. If you do decide to say something, for your and your family's safety, I would leave your heritage out of it; don't make a Nazi angry at the same time you also tell them about your Jewish heritage.
That said, I don't think Nazis or Nazi sympathizers (and look, someone who complains about Holocaust education and marries someone who jokes about being a Nazi is at least a sympathizer) are unaware that people do not find their views sympathetic. I don't think there's anything you could tell her about how Being A Nazi Is Bad that she doesn't already know.
If a stranger's blessing would help: I absolve you completely of whatever it would take for you to either block and walk away, or do a vague slow fade.
Two caveats:
1) I am an American, so I'm sure there's nuance I'm missing. I'm also queer and of Jewish heritage, and would likely choose to just walk away from a former-friend who'd turned Nazi vs. go into that with them, so am giving you that same advice.
2) Sometimes, maybe, it's worth leaving a single door open if you think the person is being badly influenced or abused by a terrible partner, in a "I can't be part of the life choices you're making now, but if you ever want to leave your Nazi husband and need help getting away, reach out to me then and I will help you leave" way. In this case it sure sounds like she was a sympathizer long before this marriage and so I'm not sure that's relevant, but I'll throw out the possibility if you want to consider it.
posted by Stacey at 8:06 AM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
That said, I don't think Nazis or Nazi sympathizers (and look, someone who complains about Holocaust education and marries someone who jokes about being a Nazi is at least a sympathizer) are unaware that people do not find their views sympathetic. I don't think there's anything you could tell her about how Being A Nazi Is Bad that she doesn't already know.
If a stranger's blessing would help: I absolve you completely of whatever it would take for you to either block and walk away, or do a vague slow fade.
Two caveats:
1) I am an American, so I'm sure there's nuance I'm missing. I'm also queer and of Jewish heritage, and would likely choose to just walk away from a former-friend who'd turned Nazi vs. go into that with them, so am giving you that same advice.
2) Sometimes, maybe, it's worth leaving a single door open if you think the person is being badly influenced or abused by a terrible partner, in a "I can't be part of the life choices you're making now, but if you ever want to leave your Nazi husband and need help getting away, reach out to me then and I will help you leave" way. In this case it sure sounds like she was a sympathizer long before this marriage and so I'm not sure that's relevant, but I'll throw out the possibility if you want to consider it.
posted by Stacey at 8:06 AM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I also think that she probably won't react like I want her to.
That's okay, because your goal shouldn't be to get the right reaction or make her do anything, because that's obviously outside your power. Your goal is to plant a seed. Your goal should be to remove the possibility that when she tries to reassure herself of all the people who like her and that makes her a good person, you are not on that roster.
Hearts and minds change slowly for some people.
It does sound like he's generically bad for her as well as possibly being a Nazi. It also sounds like you're prepared for this relationship to be over, which means you don't have much to lose, so this is the scenario in which you can leave her one last message that you care about her well-being and want better for her without needing to stick around if she doesn't like it. "I have to tell you that even though 100% of the information I have about your partner has come from you, he still ends up sounding bad for you and not particularly good for the world either. On top of that, it has come to sound as if he or both of you and your social circle are Nazis, which is not only abhorrent to me but unsafe for my family, which is one of the reasons I couldn't attend, much less condone, your wedding. I am sad for you, and I hope you overcome all this some day, but we literally can't be friends under these circumstances and I can't see why you would even want to. The company you choose to keep defines your character, and one bad choice can't be balanced out by a dozen good ones, not at this scale. That applies to your choices, and to mine."
She'll get mad, probably. But you have left a crack in the door there so that if one day she needs help getting out she might be willing to reach out to you.
But you can also just walk away. You're under no obligation to do this service.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:09 AM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's okay, because your goal shouldn't be to get the right reaction or make her do anything, because that's obviously outside your power. Your goal is to plant a seed. Your goal should be to remove the possibility that when she tries to reassure herself of all the people who like her and that makes her a good person, you are not on that roster.
Hearts and minds change slowly for some people.
It does sound like he's generically bad for her as well as possibly being a Nazi. It also sounds like you're prepared for this relationship to be over, which means you don't have much to lose, so this is the scenario in which you can leave her one last message that you care about her well-being and want better for her without needing to stick around if she doesn't like it. "I have to tell you that even though 100% of the information I have about your partner has come from you, he still ends up sounding bad for you and not particularly good for the world either. On top of that, it has come to sound as if he or both of you and your social circle are Nazis, which is not only abhorrent to me but unsafe for my family, which is one of the reasons I couldn't attend, much less condone, your wedding. I am sad for you, and I hope you overcome all this some day, but we literally can't be friends under these circumstances and I can't see why you would even want to. The company you choose to keep defines your character, and one bad choice can't be balanced out by a dozen good ones, not at this scale. That applies to your choices, and to mine."
She'll get mad, probably. But you have left a crack in the door there so that if one day she needs help getting out she might be willing to reach out to you.
But you can also just walk away. You're under no obligation to do this service.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:09 AM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: — I am also Jewish (American) with grandparents who were in the camps. I’m aware of how much more serious a taboo Naziism is in Germany than elsewhere in the world and my eyebrows went up when you told both the “get over it” and the “bit of a Nazi” stories.
— I’m a longtime fandom person and I know what you mean about the way people expose their ugly beliefs and power fantasies— like the deep, simmering hatred for other women you’re describing—through the stories they write in safely pseudonymous spaces where those opinions don’t feel like they matter. I know people who aren’t a part of this subculture will think “she writes fanfiction about these intense fantasies of hating and punishing every woman that isn’t her” sounds like a petty way to judge someone’s character. It is not. Sometimes these creative spaces are a place for people to explore the dark parts of their psyche is in a safe way, but if you’re getting that gut feeling of “this is who she really is, this is what she really thinks of me,” don’t ignore it because it’s ~just fanfiction.
I agree with the people upthread your fandom friend is a Holocaust denier who dislikes other women and who found a Nazi husband. These are not views that are going to get better in this political climate. I’m sorry it went this way, but you have my complete permission to ghost her.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:19 AM on July 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
— I’m a longtime fandom person and I know what you mean about the way people expose their ugly beliefs and power fantasies— like the deep, simmering hatred for other women you’re describing—through the stories they write in safely pseudonymous spaces where those opinions don’t feel like they matter. I know people who aren’t a part of this subculture will think “she writes fanfiction about these intense fantasies of hating and punishing every woman that isn’t her” sounds like a petty way to judge someone’s character. It is not. Sometimes these creative spaces are a place for people to explore the dark parts of their psyche is in a safe way, but if you’re getting that gut feeling of “this is who she really is, this is what she really thinks of me,” don’t ignore it because it’s ~just fanfiction.
I agree with the people upthread your fandom friend is a Holocaust denier who dislikes other women and who found a Nazi husband. These are not views that are going to get better in this political climate. I’m sorry it went this way, but you have my complete permission to ghost her.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:19 AM on July 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
This seems like a thing where you have a chance to either keep this friendship at its current level (she doesn't know you that well, you don't like her life choices and actively choose not to see her in person, but you still appreciate your fandom ties even though you are not that active in the fandom anymore) or you end your friendship.
When it came to cutting ties with the abusive/toxic person in my life (the one time I have done this) ghosting really worked for me. The relief of not having to worry about their behaviours, beliefs, reactions, their existence anymore has been revelatory. You may find a similar relief when you cut her out of your life. I don't think she sounds like someone you can talk out of being a holocaust denier/Nazi-adjacent. It's not your job.
On preview, agreed with moonlight on vermont above about fandom. She has been writing her worldview for a long time and you can believe what she has been telling you about herself.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 9:26 AM on July 16, 2018
When it came to cutting ties with the abusive/toxic person in my life (the one time I have done this) ghosting really worked for me. The relief of not having to worry about their behaviours, beliefs, reactions, their existence anymore has been revelatory. You may find a similar relief when you cut her out of your life. I don't think she sounds like someone you can talk out of being a holocaust denier/Nazi-adjacent. It's not your job.
On preview, agreed with moonlight on vermont above about fandom. She has been writing her worldview for a long time and you can believe what she has been telling you about herself.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 9:26 AM on July 16, 2018
I would tell her that it's clear that you don't share the same values and that you've grown apart. Done. You don't owe her endless processing of the situation. Say goodbye.
posted by quince at 9:55 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by quince at 9:55 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I like eirias' email suggestion. Personally, I think it's rude to ghost people with no explanation; if you prefer just to say you've grown apart and can't keep up the friendship, that's fine too, but it's better to say something than nothing. After that, I think it's okay to ignore further emails or block her.
posted by pinochiette at 10:02 AM on July 16, 2018
posted by pinochiette at 10:02 AM on July 16, 2018
Best answer: I should amend my suggestion above to emphasize that your personal safety has to come first here - several others have pointed out that someone raised Jewish is unlikely to suggest being frank about this, and it’s true that I wasn’t and may not have a good sense of the risks to you. So please, don’t feel obliged to risk your own safety for a move that almost surely won’t pay off directly for you (but might benefit others in the future, by making the social costs of Nazism to this friend very clear and personal). Ghosting a long time friend isn’t awesome, but being a Nazi is a lot worse than that. If you do say something, don’t do it solely out of obligation to her.
posted by eirias at 10:13 AM on July 16, 2018
posted by eirias at 10:13 AM on July 16, 2018
What do you want to do here? Do you want to stay low-key friends and just check in twice a year, or do you want to end the friendship completely? Do you want to tell her how you feel about her Nazi husband?
If you want to stay friends, just keep everything light. "sorry I haven't been in touch. Hope you're well, congrats on the wedding, sorry I missed your birthday. How are things?"
If you want to talk to her about the husband's Nazism, be careful. You could say, "Your husband mentioned being a Nazi, has he said anything since then?" I dunno if it's worth going there because you could hear things you might really dislike, and not just about Nazism.
If you do hear unsavoury things, then say, maybe some time later, "I've thought about it and don't think we should continue this friendship. I think we've grown apart. I'm sorry and wish you well." She will be hurt, that's inevitable. But you'll both deal and move on.
posted by foxjacket at 10:32 AM on July 16, 2018
If you want to stay friends, just keep everything light. "sorry I haven't been in touch. Hope you're well, congrats on the wedding, sorry I missed your birthday. How are things?"
If you want to talk to her about the husband's Nazism, be careful. You could say, "Your husband mentioned being a Nazi, has he said anything since then?" I dunno if it's worth going there because you could hear things you might really dislike, and not just about Nazism.
If you do hear unsavoury things, then say, maybe some time later, "I've thought about it and don't think we should continue this friendship. I think we've grown apart. I'm sorry and wish you well." She will be hurt, that's inevitable. But you'll both deal and move on.
posted by foxjacket at 10:32 AM on July 16, 2018
I ended a 4-year friendship with a white queer friend of mine - we have mostly similar political views, but hey, they disrespected and humiliated me publicly and yelled the shit out of me! That's not a friend!
Decide who your friends are, and then draw the line. I don't think you want to say "I have a Nazi sympathiser for a friend," and I think we're just helping you give yourself permission to let go.
posted by yueliang at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Decide who your friends are, and then draw the line. I don't think you want to say "I have a Nazi sympathiser for a friend," and I think we're just helping you give yourself permission to let go.
posted by yueliang at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't think people who aren't Nazis joke that they are on first dates (or ever)I have to disagree. On my first date with my spouse, we literally toasted genocide. My spouse's grandmother watched her father die at Auschwitz and barely survived herself. I'd recently been arrested several times at anti-racist direct action events. We're both so far on the "douse Nazis, fascists, and white supremacists with gasoline and set them on fire" side of the political spectrum that it makes our leftist friends deeply uncomfortable. But, in context, in private, and knowing what we knew about each other, it was genuinely funny.
The question is, is this woman actually sympathetic to Nazis? If you have any interesting in maintaining the friendship, I'd ask her. "Do you think the contemporary story of the Holocaust is misleading? Are Jewish people and gentiles different? What rights should immigrants and 'Gypsies' have in Germany today?" If she equivocates, cut her loose and move on. If she's steadfastly anti-racist, have a conversation about how confusing and troubling her communication has been.
But, perhaps, the first question should be, "do you want to be her friend even if the Nazi thing went away?" It's not entirely clear from your post. Having been someone's friend doesn't obligate you to remain so. People change.
posted by eotvos at 11:55 AM on July 16, 2018
Best answer: I also think that she probably won't react like I want her to = what are you hoping for, exactly? Any time someone's choice of partner is questioned, it's going to go badly. Assuming that her saying 'gosh, I married an idiot, what was I thinking, thanks for pointing that out' is off the table, how can she respond that would help your friendship?
You tell her you're uncomfortable with things she's told you about how her now-husband said racist things. She can then:
- explain how you misunderstood and he's not really racist (and you probably won't believe her)
- say that you're right, he's not great, but she's putting up with him for other reasons (and you won't respect her)
- agree that he does believe those things but deny that they're racist (and you run like heck)
I don't really see a good outcome here.
posted by aimedwander at 1:04 PM on July 16, 2018
You tell her you're uncomfortable with things she's told you about how her now-husband said racist things. She can then:
- explain how you misunderstood and he's not really racist (and you probably won't believe her)
- say that you're right, he's not great, but she's putting up with him for other reasons (and you won't respect her)
- agree that he does believe those things but deny that they're racist (and you run like heck)
I don't really see a good outcome here.
posted by aimedwander at 1:04 PM on July 16, 2018
I think you mourn the lost friendship, remember how things were ten years ago and just let it go.
I agree with you, no one makes jokes like that if they are not a Nazi. On a first date someone says that and you excuse yourself as soon as you can (with consideration to personal safety). Most certainly no decent person spouts off that nonsense about Holocaust, could she be more offensive? I think she's probably always felt this way and meeting someone else who does has allowed her to be open. Online friendships are wonderful but they do isolate you from the person's broader social context and things can stay hidden.
Ghosting is the best. Raising these things with her won't go well and will be more upsetting in the long run.
posted by kitten magic at 3:01 PM on July 16, 2018
I agree with you, no one makes jokes like that if they are not a Nazi. On a first date someone says that and you excuse yourself as soon as you can (with consideration to personal safety). Most certainly no decent person spouts off that nonsense about Holocaust, could she be more offensive? I think she's probably always felt this way and meeting someone else who does has allowed her to be open. Online friendships are wonderful but they do isolate you from the person's broader social context and things can stay hidden.
Ghosting is the best. Raising these things with her won't go well and will be more upsetting in the long run.
posted by kitten magic at 3:01 PM on July 16, 2018
Best answer: The one good thing to come out of the hellish political situation Americans find ourselves in right now is that I've been able to cull my friend circles of racists, xenophobes, homophobes, enablers, excusers, and other a**holes as they out themselves based on remarks the likes of "Jews should get over the Holocaust", or "Blacks should get over slavery", or "Screw immigrants who enter illegally."
In a country where Nazism is considered illegal, the fact that he joked about being "a bit of one" is very telling. I'd say your "friend" (in quotes because I wouldn't refer to someone who openly criticized and judged my sexual behavior a friend) made this decision easy for you.
posted by Everydayville at 3:38 PM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
In a country where Nazism is considered illegal, the fact that he joked about being "a bit of one" is very telling. I'd say your "friend" (in quotes because I wouldn't refer to someone who openly criticized and judged my sexual behavior a friend) made this decision easy for you.
posted by Everydayville at 3:38 PM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah no. He doesn‘t have to be an actual, literal, swastika bearing Nazi. To me „bit of a Nazi“ mens a giggling admittance that he believes things that are considered unacceptably nationalist and racist by mainstream Germany and that he‘s a holocaust denier.
Drop her, please. These people are very real dangers.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:59 PM on July 16, 2018
Drop her, please. These people are very real dangers.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:59 PM on July 16, 2018
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Since she didn't listen to you when she first went out with her husband, it's sadly even more doubtful that she'd listen to you now, when she's married to him and it would be an even bigger deal for her to confront him or leave him. I don't think that you owe her or society a message about your reasons for ending the friendship. I suspect that if you do, at best, she'd ignore you, and at worst, she'd lash out at you. You don't deserve to have her lash out at you after what you've already endured listening to her toxic comments about Jewish people and women.
posted by Psychology Hearts at 5:39 AM on July 16, 2018 [7 favorites]