I need to consult a particular kind of expert.
July 8, 2018 2:27 PM Subscribe
Is there a respected expert on the way women function in the workplace and how they fail to make the same kinds of alliances as men?
I’m about to retire from a field that has continued to stunt the success of women. Even though some of the people in decision making positions are women. I have noticed that I’ve been helped 90% of the time by male bosses. These women are perfectly decent women. But I feel that we need to shine a light on inherent sexism that continually leads to the bar being lowered for men and raised for women. I want to understand why women do this, why women dont form the kinds of alliances men do and then work on strategies to raise awareness about this and offer a plan or solution for how to proceed. I’m starting at zero. I’m in the research phase. I don’t even know what field of study this would be in. Nor what the title of such an expert would be. I have the reputation and connections to achieve something before I retire. I have nothing left to lose so I can speak the truth. I’m trying to unblock the plug that stems the advancement of brilliant women for this next generation. I just don’t know where to start. Any information anyone can provide will help me begin this journey. PS: Men, I f**king adore you. No negative feelings at all I just want to make things more fair.
I’m about to retire from a field that has continued to stunt the success of women. Even though some of the people in decision making positions are women. I have noticed that I’ve been helped 90% of the time by male bosses. These women are perfectly decent women. But I feel that we need to shine a light on inherent sexism that continually leads to the bar being lowered for men and raised for women. I want to understand why women do this, why women dont form the kinds of alliances men do and then work on strategies to raise awareness about this and offer a plan or solution for how to proceed. I’m starting at zero. I’m in the research phase. I don’t even know what field of study this would be in. Nor what the title of such an expert would be. I have the reputation and connections to achieve something before I retire. I have nothing left to lose so I can speak the truth. I’m trying to unblock the plug that stems the advancement of brilliant women for this next generation. I just don’t know where to start. Any information anyone can provide will help me begin this journey. PS: Men, I f**king adore you. No negative feelings at all I just want to make things more fair.
Best answer: You might look into the concept of "sponsorship" which is something that men often given one another (as distinct from "mentorship"). Here's an HBR article on the topic, perhaps one of the authors or links could help you find that expert.
posted by ch1x0r at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2018
posted by ch1x0r at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2018
Best answer: Have you listened to the podcast, The Broad Experience? There's so much ground that is covered in that show and I encourage you to look through the archives. The experts she brings on often mention their research or books or studies that they have either participated in, reviewed or have knowledge of and I almost always find great references when I listen.
I've thought about this issue a lot because it comes up all the time and I also had a rather devastating experience of lobbying hard to work for a senior woman and then finding out that she was not going to be any kind of ally, mentor, or supporter of me in my career and in fact seemed threatened by me and then undermined me when given the opportunity. I've really wrestled with whether that was a fair expectation on my part (that she would boost me) or whether that says anything about women in general (I happen to think it does not). There's just so many confounding issues at play:
1. There are more men in senior roles (generally) so of course your odds of encountering men that will boost you is greater. The numbers are there. If there's only one woman you can turn to in a senior role, your odds of getting someone who isn't good at boosting or mentoring younger women is higher. She can't be all things to all comers, you know?
2. Women are less comfortable in their positions. Study after study show that women are penalized harsher for everyday job-related mistakes, that they are less likely to win at negotiating and more likely to be reviewed unfavorably for nebulous "personality" issues that simply do not devil men. So, she has a more tenuous hold on her success and may not feel like she has capital to burn on mentoring or pulling up a protégé.
3. Women receive less training and mentorship in general. If they don't have someone with capital to burn who mentors them and if they don't receive the leadership opportunities that others receive (including the opportunity to fail and not lose their career track) then they simply aren't as equipped to do that kind of work for others. I see this as a sickness among men, as well, in that many men are promoted to leadership positions based on their potential and not on any aptitude and are often not given appropriate training either. So you see them making a hash of their leadership responsibilities because they are just supposed to figure it out. However, they are usually given much more latitude to do so.
Maybe looking into the symptoms of the issue will be fruitful for finding the right research to point toward positive solutions.
posted by amanda at 2:45 PM on July 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
I've thought about this issue a lot because it comes up all the time and I also had a rather devastating experience of lobbying hard to work for a senior woman and then finding out that she was not going to be any kind of ally, mentor, or supporter of me in my career and in fact seemed threatened by me and then undermined me when given the opportunity. I've really wrestled with whether that was a fair expectation on my part (that she would boost me) or whether that says anything about women in general (I happen to think it does not). There's just so many confounding issues at play:
1. There are more men in senior roles (generally) so of course your odds of encountering men that will boost you is greater. The numbers are there. If there's only one woman you can turn to in a senior role, your odds of getting someone who isn't good at boosting or mentoring younger women is higher. She can't be all things to all comers, you know?
2. Women are less comfortable in their positions. Study after study show that women are penalized harsher for everyday job-related mistakes, that they are less likely to win at negotiating and more likely to be reviewed unfavorably for nebulous "personality" issues that simply do not devil men. So, she has a more tenuous hold on her success and may not feel like she has capital to burn on mentoring or pulling up a protégé.
3. Women receive less training and mentorship in general. If they don't have someone with capital to burn who mentors them and if they don't receive the leadership opportunities that others receive (including the opportunity to fail and not lose their career track) then they simply aren't as equipped to do that kind of work for others. I see this as a sickness among men, as well, in that many men are promoted to leadership positions based on their potential and not on any aptitude and are often not given appropriate training either. So you see them making a hash of their leadership responsibilities because they are just supposed to figure it out. However, they are usually given much more latitude to do so.
Maybe looking into the symptoms of the issue will be fruitful for finding the right research to point toward positive solutions.
posted by amanda at 2:45 PM on July 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
It's a sociological problem.
As a male employee I'm not aware of myself ever forming alliances with other men, i mean other than the standard contractual one of showing up, doing my work and getting paid!
Unless you're black, as a man you are born into an alliance. Workplace alliances are more rare among women because we are raised to view one another as competitors. We meet one another with suspicion rather than camaraderie. Workplaces themselves can nurture cultures that mitigate against this and nurture female alliance in the workplace, but it isn't common.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:46 PM on July 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
As a male employee I'm not aware of myself ever forming alliances with other men, i mean other than the standard contractual one of showing up, doing my work and getting paid!
Unless you're black, as a man you are born into an alliance. Workplace alliances are more rare among women because we are raised to view one another as competitors. We meet one another with suspicion rather than camaraderie. Workplaces themselves can nurture cultures that mitigate against this and nurture female alliance in the workplace, but it isn't common.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:46 PM on July 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
Here's an episode of the Broad Experience called "Working with Other Women," scroll down on that page for the women she speaks with and their other endeavors.
posted by amanda at 3:08 PM on July 8, 2018
posted by amanda at 3:08 PM on July 8, 2018
Felice Batlan has researched women secretaries in law firms, and why on average they feel it's more beneficial to work for lawyers who are men. The reasoning was similar to the numbered points in amanda's comment above. More specifically, a lawyer who is a man is more likely to have more clout than he needs for himself, and is willing to burn some of his own clout getting his secretary the extra days off she requested or whatever it may be; the woman lawyer is constantly feeling she might not have the clout needed to hold onto her own place. And on average, the lawyer who is a woman is going to stress over everything being perfect, not just typical lawyer perfectionism, but beyond the beyond, and that stress is contagious, and the second-guessing and triple-checking affects the secretary's workload.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:08 PM on July 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:08 PM on July 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is currently on my reading list: Brotopia - Breaking Up the Boys Club of Silicon Valley, by Emily Chang. It’s extensively researched, she’s a Bloomberg journalist.
There’s lots in there about how men escalate competition amongst themselves. One of the areas she talks about is how a lot of business networking still takes place in traditionally male environments: golf clubs, strip clubs, sports VIP zones etc, which although ostensibly now open to all, can still be hostile to women. As such many men can appear magnanimous towards women at work, because they don’t consider them competition. It’s insidious.
posted by freya_lamb at 3:27 PM on July 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
There’s lots in there about how men escalate competition amongst themselves. One of the areas she talks about is how a lot of business networking still takes place in traditionally male environments: golf clubs, strip clubs, sports VIP zones etc, which although ostensibly now open to all, can still be hostile to women. As such many men can appear magnanimous towards women at work, because they don’t consider them competition. It’s insidious.
posted by freya_lamb at 3:27 PM on July 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Workforces are influential spaces in which gender-inequitable norms and behaviours may be enforced, or challenged. At work, gender inequalities are produced and sustained by a variety of processes, including men's and women's internalization of privilege and disadvantage; gendered constructions of particular occupations and of management and leadership; men's interactive performances or accomplishment of gender and dominance; men's collective social relations (including segregation, exclusion and male-focused networking) and men's use of women's presence to construct masculinities and men's privilege.
- Flood & Pease, Undoing Men’s Privilege and Advancing Gender Equality in Public Sector Institutions
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:34 PM on July 8, 2018
- Flood & Pease, Undoing Men’s Privilege and Advancing Gender Equality in Public Sector Institutions
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:34 PM on July 8, 2018
Even though some of the people in decision making positions are women. I have noticed that I’ve been helped 90% of the time by male bosses. These women are perfectly decent women. But I feel that we need to shine a light on inherent sexism that continually leads to the bar being lowered for men and raised for women. I want to understand why women do this, why women dont form the kinds of alliances men do and then work on strategies to raise awareness about this and offer a plan or solution for how to proceed. I’m starting at zero. I’m in the research phase.
Research has to start with the question what before why. because your idea of what does happen between women at work is not mine, and while I'm sure yours is accurate to your experience, I don't agree that it is correct as a statement about women more broadly. I don't mean you have to start from zero and prove that women have less money, power, and security than men. but if you start with the answer that what women have done for you, specifically, is all women ever do for other women, and that women's difficulties derive from what women do, not what men do, and that because men have helped you personally, men don't preferentially help men over women in the workplace -- well, you're not guaranteed to be wrong.
but you are speaking as someone who has concluded an investigation with exactly one subject: yourself. (and as long as you're starting with yourself, why not ask the question you can answer independently: why have you helped or not helped other women, over the course of your career? that one, you can answer without any research at all.)
but either to find or to do your own worthwhile studies you'd have to take several steps and several assumptions backward. what is "help" in the sense you mean it? what does a boss risk when helping someone whose performance will reflect on them -- will they be given credit if the beneficiary performs well and blame if she performs badly? just one or just the other? Is their grip on power secure or precarious? How did they get there themselves, with help or without, and what kind? How visible are alliances, seen from the outside by non-members? Is it helpful or dangerous for women's alliances to be known about by those not in them? [*] Official, formalized professional women's organizations exist in all kinds of industries; do those not count as alliances and why not?
[*] if professional women's industry orgs strike you as too stodgy or formal or distant to have much effect, look up Moira Donegan and the media men list for one example of how brave and risky it is to form an active covert alliance with other women that attempts to actually give women power. but she did it anyway, women in all industries do things like this, as well as the ordinary standard public stuff of suggesting candidates for promotions and giving them career advice. and when it's found out, there are consequences.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:09 PM on July 8, 2018 [12 favorites]
Research has to start with the question what before why. because your idea of what does happen between women at work is not mine, and while I'm sure yours is accurate to your experience, I don't agree that it is correct as a statement about women more broadly. I don't mean you have to start from zero and prove that women have less money, power, and security than men. but if you start with the answer that what women have done for you, specifically, is all women ever do for other women, and that women's difficulties derive from what women do, not what men do, and that because men have helped you personally, men don't preferentially help men over women in the workplace -- well, you're not guaranteed to be wrong.
but you are speaking as someone who has concluded an investigation with exactly one subject: yourself. (and as long as you're starting with yourself, why not ask the question you can answer independently: why have you helped or not helped other women, over the course of your career? that one, you can answer without any research at all.)
but either to find or to do your own worthwhile studies you'd have to take several steps and several assumptions backward. what is "help" in the sense you mean it? what does a boss risk when helping someone whose performance will reflect on them -- will they be given credit if the beneficiary performs well and blame if she performs badly? just one or just the other? Is their grip on power secure or precarious? How did they get there themselves, with help or without, and what kind? How visible are alliances, seen from the outside by non-members? Is it helpful or dangerous for women's alliances to be known about by those not in them? [*] Official, formalized professional women's organizations exist in all kinds of industries; do those not count as alliances and why not?
[*] if professional women's industry orgs strike you as too stodgy or formal or distant to have much effect, look up Moira Donegan and the media men list for one example of how brave and risky it is to form an active covert alliance with other women that attempts to actually give women power. but she did it anyway, women in all industries do things like this, as well as the ordinary standard public stuff of suggesting candidates for promotions and giving them career advice. and when it's found out, there are consequences.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:09 PM on July 8, 2018 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: queenofbithynia, first, I'm talking about the entertainment business, in particular, TV writing.
I believe the why has been outlined clearly above. That women do not have the clout to extend favors. I know this is true for myself. I can only do so much. I've been fired a few times for speaking up against some pretty vile shit, and at a certain point, I had to take care of myself and my own career.
I want the kind of help that every single guy I trained got from the men above me. They all went on to be in charge and have great success. I have remained basically the same as have innumerable other women. So, help is: SOCIALIZING WITH women in power, and forming an alliance so that we can truly push more women through the pipeline of success.
I think "WHY" is the perfect question. We need to understand why it's HARDER for women to form the kinds of alliances that result in greenlighting more shows written by women, or having more women hired on shows. If we understand what underlies this tendency, then we can work to change it.
posted by generic230 at 4:42 PM on July 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I believe the why has been outlined clearly above. That women do not have the clout to extend favors. I know this is true for myself. I can only do so much. I've been fired a few times for speaking up against some pretty vile shit, and at a certain point, I had to take care of myself and my own career.
I want the kind of help that every single guy I trained got from the men above me. They all went on to be in charge and have great success. I have remained basically the same as have innumerable other women. So, help is: SOCIALIZING WITH women in power, and forming an alliance so that we can truly push more women through the pipeline of success.
I think "WHY" is the perfect question. We need to understand why it's HARDER for women to form the kinds of alliances that result in greenlighting more shows written by women, or having more women hired on shows. If we understand what underlies this tendency, then we can work to change it.
posted by generic230 at 4:42 PM on July 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Workplace alliances are more rare among women because we are raised to view one another as competitors. We meet one another with suspicion rather than camaraderie.
People who let it be known that they believe this kind of backbiting catfighting mentality to be true of women in general, whether or not they excuse it on the grounds that women are socialized into it and can't help it, are not likely to form useful alliances with women who can help them. if you can't see women cooperating and strategically allying with each other all around you, you won't see it. plus of course, one thing successful men in the workplace are never accused of is being insufficiently competitive or aggressive. that's clearly, clearly not holding a whole gender back, or men would be the ones making cents on our dollar.
people may believe such things about women and keep it to themselves, of course. I'll never know how many women I thought were friendly co-workers actually believed that we were mutually suspicious of one another. but they see what they want to see, and so do I.
I have never knowingly been "nurtured" in the workplace and I can't imagine allowing it. but I have been very well treated by every female boss I ever had, including the one I hated and didn't respect. I have had competent male bosses, but none of them have ever been so consumed with fairness and rewarding initiative as the women have. this was wise of the men, because always looking out for other women and speaking up for them when they're treated unfairly is exhausting and it distracts you from your own ambition. it slows you down.
looking out for women takes more labor than looking out for men, because women are subject to more petty mistreatment, harassment, overlooking, and general abuse. it's a harder job. women at the higher levels have many more female subordinates than female peers, and "alliances" are therefore more of a one-way drain on them than they are for those of us in the middle levels. they are still, as a group, devoted to mentorship in a way I can't really understand because I'm not that great or selfless a person.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:47 PM on July 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
People who let it be known that they believe this kind of backbiting catfighting mentality to be true of women in general, whether or not they excuse it on the grounds that women are socialized into it and can't help it, are not likely to form useful alliances with women who can help them. if you can't see women cooperating and strategically allying with each other all around you, you won't see it. plus of course, one thing successful men in the workplace are never accused of is being insufficiently competitive or aggressive. that's clearly, clearly not holding a whole gender back, or men would be the ones making cents on our dollar.
people may believe such things about women and keep it to themselves, of course. I'll never know how many women I thought were friendly co-workers actually believed that we were mutually suspicious of one another. but they see what they want to see, and so do I.
I have never knowingly been "nurtured" in the workplace and I can't imagine allowing it. but I have been very well treated by every female boss I ever had, including the one I hated and didn't respect. I have had competent male bosses, but none of them have ever been so consumed with fairness and rewarding initiative as the women have. this was wise of the men, because always looking out for other women and speaking up for them when they're treated unfairly is exhausting and it distracts you from your own ambition. it slows you down.
looking out for women takes more labor than looking out for men, because women are subject to more petty mistreatment, harassment, overlooking, and general abuse. it's a harder job. women at the higher levels have many more female subordinates than female peers, and "alliances" are therefore more of a one-way drain on them than they are for those of us in the middle levels. they are still, as a group, devoted to mentorship in a way I can't really understand because I'm not that great or selfless a person.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:47 PM on July 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: I have never had any sense of competition from women. I know this is an absolute myth. I'm smart. I'm an OG feminist from the late 60s, early 70s, I've been doing this for 40 years.
The problem goes much deeper. Of all the info above, I'm shocked that that's the one you chose to highlight. When the truest reason is: WOMEN DO NOT HAVE THE EXTRA LEEWAY TO GO OUT ON A LIMB FOR ANOTHER WOMAN. The second one that made sense is: women are different, we interact differently. Wwell, guess what? It isn't working. So I want to know a new way to achieve what we need to.
posted by generic230 at 5:03 PM on July 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
The problem goes much deeper. Of all the info above, I'm shocked that that's the one you chose to highlight. When the truest reason is: WOMEN DO NOT HAVE THE EXTRA LEEWAY TO GO OUT ON A LIMB FOR ANOTHER WOMAN. The second one that made sense is: women are different, we interact differently. Wwell, guess what? It isn't working. So I want to know a new way to achieve what we need to.
posted by generic230 at 5:03 PM on July 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: In answer to your question, you might want to look into experts on organizational behaviour/psychology for people who study the behaviour of various groups in the workplace. Your local business administration and psychology or sociology programs might be a good source of contacts, along with human resources consultants and the big networking organizations in your field. One person I am aware of who looks at this is Professor in the Faculty of Management.
I'm very glad to read the tone of your question and your subsequent responses and see that you are not focussing on "blaming" senior women for not helping more. There are so many unacknowledged factors that make this kind of thing difficult, as outlined above. That's not an excuse for doing better, though, and I'm also glad the zeitgeist has shifted towards looking at all these kinds of systemic issues.
posted by rpfields at 5:52 PM on July 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm very glad to read the tone of your question and your subsequent responses and see that you are not focussing on "blaming" senior women for not helping more. There are so many unacknowledged factors that make this kind of thing difficult, as outlined above. That's not an excuse for doing better, though, and I'm also glad the zeitgeist has shifted towards looking at all these kinds of systemic issues.
posted by rpfields at 5:52 PM on July 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all so much!! You gave me the info I needed to proceed. I have a ton of stuff to read.
posted by generic230 at 6:59 PM on July 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by generic230 at 6:59 PM on July 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have never had any sense of competition from women. I know this is an absolute myth.
Your experience is not universal. (But thank you for dismissing mine.) There are in fact many, many studies of competition among women, specifically in the workplace. Here's one. There are hundreds.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:03 AM on July 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Your experience is not universal. (But thank you for dismissing mine.) There are in fact many, many studies of competition among women, specifically in the workplace. Here's one. There are hundreds.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:03 AM on July 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have never had any sense of competition from women. I know this is an absolute myth.
A woman literally told me once that she was competing with me in the workplace and would not help me in any way whatsoever, even though she was supposed to be training me. She told me that if she helped me, I would get better at the job than she was and I would get a promotion faster and she wasn't going to let that happen.
At a different workplace, our male boss intentionally set us against each other (all women) in some sort of disgusting power move. Half of us thought it was shit, the other half played right along and sabotaged the rest of us and each other.
So yeah. It totally exists. I'm glad it's never happened to you because it really, really sucks.
posted by cooker girl at 6:06 AM on July 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
A woman literally told me once that she was competing with me in the workplace and would not help me in any way whatsoever, even though she was supposed to be training me. She told me that if she helped me, I would get better at the job than she was and I would get a promotion faster and she wasn't going to let that happen.
At a different workplace, our male boss intentionally set us against each other (all women) in some sort of disgusting power move. Half of us thought it was shit, the other half played right along and sabotaged the rest of us and each other.
So yeah. It totally exists. I'm glad it's never happened to you because it really, really sucks.
posted by cooker girl at 6:06 AM on July 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Plus the bar raising/lowering - lots of companies have diversity initiatives but they're all clear that they don't want to change the hiring bar based on gender or other attributes - that sounds rather problematic.
posted by JonB at 2:36 PM on July 8, 2018