Need more help on my non-relationship, please!
July 8, 2018 4:35 AM   Subscribe

So, this was me, three months ago. Unfortunately, the situation is still ongoing, and I'm back for some more MeFi wisdom. Thanks in advance.

To summarize the situation described in the previous post (which you are welcome to read for more detail, of course):

I met someone on a major online dating site in January. We're both in our 30s and both want marriage and children. Although we live 6 hours apart, he messaged me and we clicked quite quickly. We have an incredible amount in common, including a fairly unique conservative cultural and religious background. We took the conversation off the site to email and exchanged some long emails. We met up in February in an equidistant city and chatted for many hours. The conversation was fun and smooth. After that meet-up we began texting, and our level of contact has stayed roughly the same since then (until a few weeks ago - more on that later). We have typically texted roughly daily since our first meet-up. Maybe 1-2 days a week, we don't text at all, most days it's perhaps just once or twice a day, and then some days it's been dozens of messages and pictures. He would sometimes text me things like "wish you were here", "thinking of you", or good night or good morning. We also send short emails (mainly forwarding on news pieces with some commentary) one or two times a week, and Skype one or two times a week for several hours each time. I would consider this a fairly high level of contact (as in, I don't have this level of contact with anyone else in my life). After meeting up in February, he suggested an overnight together in March in the same equidistant city. We spent about 24 hours together and the whole time felt really comfortable and natural - both the conversation, and the being together in person. However we stayed in a room with two beds (his suggestion, although I agreed) and he didn't make any sort of physical advances - even holding hands or going in for a kiss. We are both religious conservatives, and especially conservative about premarital sex, so this isn't as odd as it might sound to most MeFites.

The situation since my previous post:


We then decided that I would visit him for a weekend in April (this was our third in-person meet-up). I spent 2.5 days with him and the whole time was magical, really. We really clicked even more than we had on previous meetings. We probably chatted for 20 hours that weekend - it was basically nonstop. Each day was like a 16-hour date: he showed me around his city, with chatting punctuated by seeing all the sights. It was easy and natural, and we laughed a lot and I at least got a strong flirty vibe (of course that is subjective). We also talked about a lot of serious and emotional things in our past - he told me things that he said that he hasn't shared with anyone before. By the end of this weekend, I felt like I was really falling in love with him, and it clinched it for me that I wanted a serious relationship with him (I wanted that with him before that weekend, but I was absolutely convinced by the end of the weekend). It seemed to me that he felt the same way, based on his body language, what he said, and how he acted. But he didn't make any physical advances during that weekend, and didn't initiate any talk about us. So I decided to do so myself. I told him I wanted to talk about what we were. This was in April. During that conversation, he said that he had feelings for me but he was having trouble figuring out exactly what they were. He said that his reservation was that things felt "logical rather than passionate". He said that he thought that things seemed "promising" for a relationship between us but that I "seem further along than he is", and that he wanted to spend more time together in person, which seemed reasonable to me. We decided to try to spend the summer together. He offered to come spend the summer in my city (his work is semi-remote), but my work is flexible too and I was able to find basically a pet-sitting gig in his city which provided free housing, so we decided that I would come there for the summer. For the next couple of months while we were still apart, we had about the same levels of contact that we had had previously. Sometimes he seemed to be more in contact (daily emails about his day, "Wish you were here to enjoy it with me!", etc.), sometimes he seemed less engaged and I didn't hear from him for a bit. He was really sick (enough to go to Urgent Care) and I was the first person he called to ask what he should do, so I think I am an important person in his life - I just don't know in what capacity.

Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I arrived in his city for the summer. Since then we've met up for 2-3 hours on most days - walks, coffee, drinks, dinner, etc. - mostly initiated by him. Unlike previously, he has insisted on paying most of the time. He has asked to take me on "a proper date" - dressing up, etc. The conversation has been alternately deep, lively, teasing, etc. But I also feel like he is less emotionally engaged than before, he still hasn't made any move to touch me at all (and in fact, seems scrupulously to avoid physical contact with me, even accidental brushing against each other), and he has talked about the future a few times with the explicit assumption that he will be single in a year (which seems to me a bit odd as something to say to a woman if you wanted a serious relationship with her). I was unsure for a long time but by this point I'm pretty certain he finds me quite physically attractive, even if I'm not necessarily his "type" (and I'm not sure that I'm not, I'm just assuming). While I really enjoy spending time with him, it's beginning to give me a whole lot of anxiety for a few reasons:
(1) I feel like I'm on audition for the position of girlfriend, with no definite end date for a decision, which feels like it puts pressure on me during our meet-ups in a way that I find unpleasant.
(2) Also, while I have many male friends, I like to have a high degree of clarity about exactly which box a man is in: this guy is now one of my best friends, but the situation isn't clearly platonic nor is it an official romantic relationship, and lingering so long in that gray area makes me really uncomfortable and confused.
(3) Also, I stopped dating other people after he and I had that conversation back in April where we decided to give it a go this summer, but I saw that a couple of weeks ago, shortly after I arrived in his city, after we'd met up for a few hours in person and had a great time, he actually updated the text of his bio on the dating site. I was really hurt by this because it seemed to me to suggest that he isn't serious about giving this a real shot - rather, he's thinking about how to advertise himself to other women.
(4) Part of me thinks: he's known me for going on 6 months now. Sure, most of it has been virtual, but we've now spent a fair amount of it in person. That should be long enough to decide whether or not he wants to have an exclusive relationship with me, including physical contact. If he doesn't know by now, I fear he will never know. At this point, what else could he possibly hope will inform him further either way?

Possibly also relevant: during our long deep chats about things, it came out that he was previously engaged and was dumped in a drawn-out and heartbreaking way, six years ago. He found this incredibly traumatic, sounds like he's not over it from the way he described it (even just bumping into her now throws him off kilter for months), and he has not had a relationship in the 6 years since (before that, he had had a few serious relationships with maybe 6 months to a year between them). From what he's said it sounds like he's had trouble feeling much of anything since the end of that relationship. I'm wondering whether this is the missing piece of the puzzle, in the sense that it emotionally broke him and now he won't/can't be emotionally present or committed. Maybe this is why he seems so hot and cold with me. I'm also wondering whether it explains his "logical, not passionate" comment - which I didn't understand at the time because what we have seems fun and flirty and deep, and could easily be passionate if we incorporated a physical element. It's hard for me to imagine that after all the contact that he and I have had, he doesn't feel emotionally engaged or clear that he has feelings for me that he wants to move forward with, but maybe it has to do with this. Or maybe he's just not into me personally? Is this at all typical for six months into having met someone on a dating site and having a fairly high level of contact with them? Ideas on what is going on here?

I'm here until mid-August in his city. My question is what to do. I could either keep things going as they currently are, in the hope that he makes a decision himself on his own timeline. Or I can have a conversation with him about his current feelings. And/or tell him that I can't take being kept on the hook like this, and that I can still see him but need to also date other people if he's not prepared to move forward with a relationship with me. Or I can simply bail on the whole thing, writing it off as a bad idea because he will never be able to be invested in this and present in the way that I need, and therefore turn him into a friend and date other people. Help?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (32 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Have a conversation about your feelings. Are you happy with the way things are going? Would you be content to keep dating non-exclusively?

You don't have to game out all your next steps depending on his answer - you can see what he says and take some time to think about it and decide what you want to do.

Good luck!
posted by bunderful at 4:46 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]


Don't ever invest yourself in a relationship with a person with whom you cannot discuss mutual feelings about investment in the relationship. Talk to him. Insist that he talk to you. You are willing to bail so you have nothing to lose with radical honesty.

Also, I'm sorry adulting is hard and he got his feefees hurt during a breakup almost a decade ago, but Jesus Christ: grow a pair. We all go through that. That is not an excuse to treat others in the utterly selfish way he's treating you.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:09 AM on July 8 [37 favorites]


He updated his online dating profile after you moved to his city?!? And talks about himself as a single person in a year (the biggest red flag of all imo)! Personally, I wouldn’t even want to stay friends with him!

I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to have a conversation where you explicitly say what you are looking for, and how you need things to change NOW. If you haven’t already. Or you can just walk away. But I definitely wouldn’t wait for things to evolve on his timeline.

Don’t fall further into the trap of thinking just you are auditioning to be his partner. If dating is an audition, he is auditioning too, and it sounds like he is completely bombing the auditon. And the audition idea is a little off in general imo... I like to think of dating as existing together and see if if you are compatible. Not just trying to prove your worth to each other. A relationship is not a reward, and not only for good enough people, and it’s often only the woman partner who is approaching it with this idea that you have to prove your worth anyway.

At a certain level, it doesn’t matter WHY he’s doing what he is (engagement etc). It only matters that it’s not acceptable to you, or the vast majority of people. It’s not clear if he’s not interested in you or not able to have a relationship at all. But that doesn’t matter either... you’re not going to get a relationship from him either way.
posted by sometamegazelle at 5:19 AM on July 8 [46 favorites]


Honestly, if you were one of my friends, I'd say he's most likely trying to come to terms with something in himself. A guy who has a history of lots of long, drawn-out relationships where nothing happens, religious background, doesn't even try for physical contact, the "logical, not passionate" thing....there's no way to tell what is going on in his own head, but it sounds like at least for this relationship, you've tried and he's just going through the motions.

Finish out the summer in the place you are, but I'd say stop trying with this guy and find someone who'll be both great to talk to and who wants a relationship with you in other ways, too.
posted by xingcat at 5:21 AM on July 8 [21 favorites]


it sounds like at least for this relationship, you've tried and he's just going through the motions.

That's exactly what went through my head, xingcat summed it up perfectly.

It's not just the lack of physical contact (although coming from a conservative background myself, not even holding hands sounds pretty weird to me at this stage).
It's the discrepancy between spending hours every day together and yet seemingly not feeling a strong enough connection / attraction.

Kiss, or get off the pot, my grandma would say.
posted by M. at 5:37 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]


Ugh. WHYYYYYYYYY put yourself through this????????? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Literally NO. ONE. should endure one SECOND of drama like this over anyone. Seriously.

Does he know where to find you? Is he a grown-ass man? Can he ambulate on his own?

Say anything you feel like saying. Or... don't. It probably makes no difference. But speak if you need to.

Then MOVE ON and live your life. He can do the work. JFC, this is more than a body can take on a Sunday morning.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:18 AM on July 8 [45 favorites]


If he’s not initiating any sexual contact with you, referring to himself as a single person, and keeping his dating profile active and updated, telling you that a relationship looks good on paper but not acting toward having one, then I would logically assume that he’s not feeling any chemistry where you’re concerned and has moved on. Apparently he can’t bring himself to TELL you that and is leaving you to figure it out for yourself.

He’s not into you. Not because of anything anybody did wrong, or he wouldn’t spend time talking and hanging out with you, but it’s not doing it for him and nothing anybody does will force a spark.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:20 AM on July 8 [10 favorites]


Sounds like he's not that into you.

Option A: he's a nice guy who likes you and wants to be friends but can't think of a nice way to tell you that he's not into you.

Option B: he's stringing you along while he waits to see if something better comes along.

You deserve better. Have a conversation with him where you say that it seems like if he was interested in you there'd be something happening along those lines by now (at least discussion of how to move the relationship along and where you were going), he wouldn't be talking about himself as a long-term single person (or he at least would have said something about how he hoped you'd be in the picture in a year), and people looking to develop being in a relationship do not update their dating profiles.. Enjoy the rest of your time in this city. Get on with your life. This is way too much drama and hard work for someone who seems to be making little to no effort in return. Being alone is better than this nonsense.
posted by biscotti at 6:30 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]


This is not because of your shared conservative cultural background. This is because he is not over his ex, and what he’s feeling for you isn’t what he felt for his ex, and so he’s afraid or unwilling to trust it.

There are emotionally available guys out there, and you can find them. He is not one of them.
posted by corb at 6:52 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]


Piggybacking on biscotti’s answer above, I would suggest that perhaps there’s an Option C: he’s gay, but because of the conservative religious background you share he doesn’t feel able to accept this fact and so has spent his life trying to force himself into hetero relationships. And now, what, he’s spent a long stretch of time celibate because of a “drawn out and heartbreaking” dumping? Is that past engagement a real thing or a fictional rationalization this guy has created to avoid physical intimacy? It might be impossible for you to know for sure.

Have you met any of his friends or coworkers or family members, now that you’re living in his city? Other than texting you and inviting you on very chaste “dates,” has he done anything to include you in the day to day aspects of his life? I share the opinion of others that he doesn’t seem very interested in moving forward with a serious relationship, and I’m sorry you’ve spent so much time and effort trying to make it work. I could be wrong about this guy but something about your description of his behaviors makes me suspect this is a sexuality problem. It’s not you, it’s him. You can feel compassion for him or try to maintain a friendship or whatever you want to do, but I recommend moving on with your search for a partner.
posted by little mouth at 6:56 AM on July 8 [11 favorites]


He is emotionally unavailable and he is using you for companionship. He can't process his deeper feelings. He will make a terrible husband and AWFUL parent.

Dump him. Enjoy the rest of your summer. Get on a new dating site. Do not fall for anything he says if he comes crawling back BECAUSE THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST RELATIONSHIP STORIES I HAVE EVER READ ON ASKME.

I know he seems like a great pal, but he has (and enjoys) all of your time and affection, he won't even commit enough after 6 months to casually bump shoulders with you in a grocery aisle, he won't hold your hand. Or hug you hello or goodbye as far as I can tell.

RUN.
posted by jbenben at 7:12 AM on July 8 [20 favorites]


I was also about to suggest Option C like Little Mouth. It's possible that he's just not into you because he's just not into women. ( I mean... avoiding even brushing up against you? Really? )
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:23 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]


It doesn’t necessarily read as “I’m gay but can’t admit it” to me, but it definitely reads as, “I am extremely uninterested in being romantically involved with you.” He could be gay, or he could just be one of those people who likes the attention and company while he looks for someone he actually wants to be with. There are unfortunately tons of those people around.

Frankly, if someone goes out of their way to never touch you and tells you to your face that they plan to be single, I think that really says it all. And after 6 months, if he’s so conflict-avoidant that he can’t just honestly explain, “I really value you as a person but there’s just no spark for me, sorry, but I’d like to stay friends,” then I would not be inclined to conclude that he DID value you as a person.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:34 AM on July 8 [4 favorites]


Another possible reason he is unavailable is that he is already in another relationship.

One thing that stuck out to me was that you moved to his city for the summer but only see him 2-3 hours a day? What are you/he doing for the rest of the day? Do you know where he lives and do you visit him there?

Regardless of why he is unavailable (could also be other reasons people suggested) it just doesn't sound like he's available. I think you'd do best to continue living your life (maybe moving back home?) and keep seeing others, at the very least.

It doesn't sound like a fun experience, best of luck.
posted by bearette at 7:35 AM on July 8 [4 favorites]


All things considered, if I knew someone was analyzing my every word and gesture for possible expressions of interest—and I mean this in the nicest way, but OP is definitely doing that—I too would scrupulously avoid even the possibility of giving that impression. Which this dude is, unfortunately, also definitely doing.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:43 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]


OP, this guy is completely taking you for granted. He knows that you'll be there to talk about his day, that you'll answer his Urgent Care call, and that you'll move to his city in order to be close to him. What has he done for you? What clear steps has he taken to demonstrate his interest and affection?

The time has come for a mature, no games conversation where he answers this question: Are you truly interested in pursuing this relationship? If the answer is anything but yes, it's time to move on. While you're rearranging your life for this guy, he's out living his without you. You deserve so much better.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 7:44 AM on July 8 [13 favorites]


People who act like this dude have no right to take space in your head and the time for conversations is over. It was over in April when he was super clear he didn't want anything serious and waved at least a dozen red flags in your face.

Updating his bio in his online dating profile once you moved to his city is beyond the pale--chat time is over, we could hypothesize whether he's gay or married or ambiguous or just super childlike or whatever--none of this matters. He is literally signaling to you that he is interested in people who are not you.

Please don't try to talk about this with him. You're just going to get more stupid ambiguous answers that will keep you coming back for the entire summer.

Just end it with this guy, wish him well and get to enjoy a summer in a new city.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 8:25 AM on July 8 [24 favorites]


Oh honey. He doesn't want a romantic relationship with you. He barely wants to be a decent friend but knows that women are super handy for all that emotional labor and he wants some of that for himself without having to do LITERALLY ANYTHING for you. Move back home. Get back on the dating site or into a hobby. Don't waste your time on men who can't communicate and are fully grown adults. It's not your job to raise a husband before you can marry him!

You deserve better. Way better. This guy is not a good partner or friend.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:44 AM on July 8 [14 favorites]


This guy is a tool. I'm so sorry. This is not ever going to make you happy. I suspect you might end up dating if you keep hanging around, but this guy is using you. He is not going to marry you.

I doubt you'll take this advice, because I've been the one hanging on too, and I know people won't hear it until they're ready, but maybe when you are ready looking back and seeing this will be comforting. I empathize.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:45 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]


The purpose of dating is like trying on shoes: keep going until you find a pair that is comfortable.

This guy sounds like some really cool high heels, or maybe some funky suede boots. Nice to look at, yet they pinch your toes, or hurt your feet.

Can you imagine wearing uncomfortable shoes every day of your life? Does it sound like fun?

We've all done it (with both shoes and men). Would you keep wearing those shoes with the hope that one day, maybe today, they will be comfortable? No. You made a bad investment, a mistake, take them back and try on some more shoes until you find a pair that's comfortable and makes you happy.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 10:50 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]


He's doing what works for him. And in his mind, he's not sending any mixed messages because he's scrupulously avoiding crossing certain lines (e.g., no physical contact) and taking actions that send a clear signal (e.g., the dating site profile).

So, follow his example and do what works for you. Don't worry about his feelings, his time, his expectations, etc. any more than he's worrying about yours.

Just make sure that you base your decision about what to do on what is *actually* happening. Not on what you think could happen in the future or want to happen or believe could happen if he could just transcend his deep inner conflicts.
posted by socialjusticeworrier at 11:33 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]


Can you clarify why it’s a “negative” that he hasn’t made a “move” or tried anything physical when he knows you wouldn’t respond unless you were “exclusive/serious”?
posted by tristeza at 12:32 PM on July 8 [3 favorites]


You have stopped dating other people (though in your first post you said you wouldn't do this unless you were exclusive) and have moved to this guy's city. You might have flexible work but what about your life in your own city? Your friends, interests, routines? Presumably you left all that behind.

You are investing a huge amount into something that, from an outsider's point of view, does not look promising at all. He has told you his feelings already. That thing about being single in a year? Listen to that.

If I were you I wouldnt bother with a conversation, I would just go home and cut my losses.
posted by thereader at 12:50 PM on July 8 [12 favorites]


It sounds like you really like him and he really likes you, but that he doesn't reciprocate your romantic feelings in a serious way. Whether that's because of his traumatic dumping experience, he's gay, you're not his type -- none of that matters -- the point is that he isn't acting like a person who wants to be in a relationship with you, and six months is long enough to know.

If you are emotionally able to keep him as a friend, I'd do that, and bail on the romantic part.
posted by hungrytiger at 12:58 PM on July 8 [2 favorites]


I'm also wondering whether it explains his "logical, not passionate" comment - which I didn't understand at the time

you didn't understand it because you feel passionate, not logical, about him. but he was speaking from his own perspective, describing his own feelings. If someone said that to me, I would have taken it as a very painful but crystal clear explanation that he liked me but was not in love with me or attracted to me. I don't know why he then agreed to spend more time with you, but he said what he said and it means what it means. Ask him if he still feels that way, why not. but if he still feels only that it is "logical" to be with you, he means he likes you and enjoys your company, so why not date you, it's pleasant. That's it. that's all. anything else you would like him to feel, you are not going to get.

If he is the kind of person who values quiet harmony and abstract compatibility highly enough, and fears heartbreak badly enough, he might actually intend to get serious with you some day -- for logical, not passionate reasons. do not let this happen if it would hurt you. it would hurt most people.

but by this point I'm pretty certain he finds me quite physically attractive

With respect, and with the understanding that this says nothing at all about you, he almost certainly does not. If he did, but for religious reasons wouldn't make a move until married, he would have proposed marriage by now. If he did, but wasn't in love with you and didn't want to lead you on, he wouldn't have gone along with your temporary move to his city, because that is also leading you on. If he has said that he is attracted to you in so many explicit words, and you have always found him to be truthful, then sure, he is. otherwise, this sounds like nothing but a wish.

he sounds like he likes you a lot and likes to spend time with you. he does not sound like he is in love with you or passionately attracted to you, or ever will be.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:45 PM on July 8 [5 favorites]


Who even knows what is going on with him, but he is not here and I actually don't care terribly much about what is going on in his head. I would only be guessing and I'd probably be wrong.

Let's think about you and what's going on in your head instead. How does this feel? This is a lot of text. It's a lot of time you've spent ruminating on this man. Lots and lots and lots of really precious time, my friend, has been devoted to this other human who is not you.

What would happen in your life if you turned that time and attention inward towards yourself? I have to wonder. I think it would be vastly more fruitful and fulfilling than whatever is going on in this unending dishwasher cycle of nonsense this man has you spinning around in forever.

So the question I might ask is: What are you getting out of this? What is this letting you look away from? Whatever is going on with this guy, his house is not clean and he is not ready for visitors. Full stop. Whatever it is, he isn't ready to date and he is not a suitable candidate for your dating attention. So: why are you directing your limited attention and time towards someone who is not a suitable candidate? I'd encourage you to take a good hard look at yourself and what you may be gaining from this in order to work through and past it. You deserve to be in a full relationship with a person who is one-hundred percent enthusiastic and gung-ho about dating you. What's attracting you to someone who is not?

Best of luck and please take care.
posted by sockermom at 4:17 PM on July 8 [8 favorites]


This sounds like a complete waste of time. He's yanking you around while he figures out his problems, you're handing him the leash. Move on.
posted by Miko at 9:03 PM on July 8 [2 favorites]


This guy likes you and clearly enjoys your company but he feels no spark. And he’s told you so.

I have been there: once tried a relationship where I felt no spark, hoping to fall in love in the process, because the other person had so many qualities and we got along so well (... and I had enough of the ‘no good’ types I kept falling for...). Well, it didn’t end well because the spark never came. 20 years later, we’re close friends but that’s all we should have been from the beginning.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:09 PM on July 8


This whole thing kind of breaks my heart. You are a thoughtful, kind, genuine human being and you are wasting these beautiful qualities on someone who barely deserves the word goodbye.
posted by jesourie at 10:49 PM on July 8 [4 favorites]


I'm with the camp that he might be closeted. At best he is closeted and in denial about it. Otherwise, he is not partner material and has treated you very shoddily. I'm sorry, you've given it your best shot.
posted by like_neon at 2:15 AM on July 9 [1 favorite]


You deserve better than waiting for months to figure out if someone is "ready" for you. You deserve to be with someone who is clear with you about their intentions.

Even if he told you tomorrow, "I've made up my mind; I want you!" is this the type of person that you really want to do life with? Someone who you have to constantly make inferences about his love and desire for you? Someone who you have to "figure out" constantly?
posted by orangesky4 at 6:29 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]


I also want to put in a vote for potentially gay. He may be grappling with it himself and unable to admit it to himself. His lack of physical/romantic affection is a big cue, and that is unusual even for very religious men. I have a good friend who was raised in a religious environment and remained closeted until the age of 30 or so. He dated women the entire time. He tried to want to be attracted to them - he never felt it deeply. Meanwhile, a few were strung along for a year or more, because the relationship never progressed but also neither could find - or at least openly speak about - a reason for breaking it off. Note too that there was sincere friendly affection and love there - even sometimes confused with gestures toward the romantic - but it could never progress to actual romantic/sexual love. It all became clearer once he was able to admit to himself that he was attracted to men primarily.

This is something to consider. If it is the case, only time will make it clear, whether that time happens with you there or after you're moved on. But this doesn't even need to be the case for you to decide not to waste any further time.
posted by Miko at 7:26 AM on July 14


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