We need to break up. It's not you, it's us. But... it's actually you.
June 27, 2018 11:18 AM Subscribe
My condominium association needs to fire our property management company for being really, really bad at what they do. We could probably fire for-cause but it is unlikely we will do so. The meeting is tomorrow and I'm unprepared and feeling slightly panicked - I need to say things at the meeting and, probably, give 60 days notice per our contract. Can you help me/us be professional?
I am a member of a condominium association board in Wisconsin. We have experienced two years of ongoing problems with our current property management company’s performance -- dubious use of funds, unexplained expenses without insight/proof, lack of timely notification of monthly financials, negligence to obtain board approvals for all items >$500 as per our contact. They have not followed our bylaws to have unmoved cars towed – i.e. a van has been there, unmoved, for six years. Each time we've attempted to address the issue they give some new hoop that has to be jumped through, many words but no action.
They have neglected to heed our specific request that they bid out and hire a professional company to have parking lots re-striped. Instead, they had one of their maintenance staff paint the stripes (remarkably unprofessional job, substandard materials, looked like crap within a couple months) and the mgmt. company pocketed those funds intended for a professional company. They took down accessible parking signs in the lot during the illegal painting which have not yet been re-mounted, so residents who do not have disabilities are now parking in that spot “cuz why not?”
Three members of the previous board + mgmt. company secretly met and took $165,000 out of our interest-bearing Vanguard account, moving it instead into our HOA checking account, purportedly to “catch” one of the board volunteers stealing money that he was not, in fact, stealing. Technically, it was our prev. board who did not follow the appropriate steps to call an actual emergency meeting (because there was no real emergency), but the mgmt.co was in cahoots and equally wrong to meet and remove funds without full approval.
They do not respond to emergency calls in a timely manner. They hired a pest control company to set a live trap on a roof of one of our bldgs to catch a raccoon family living in the attic. The management company did not tell the board the name of the company, the company did not check the trap at all over the Memorial Day holiday weekend (5 days record-setting heat wave) and a raccoon died an absolutely gruesome death that all residents, including children, had to witness since none of us could climb three stories to rescue it. Our city’s animal control dept. called the management company – animal control never got a call back. Our management company has not performed services as requested (supposed to clean gutters in one bldg – did another bldg by mistake and then never did clean the original bldg as requested). THIS is what we're dealing with.
Our new/current board on which I sit was elected a few months ago. Despite repeated contact attempts by several board members, we have been given no explanations for any of these problems. They do not respond to emails and appear to be keeping us as far away as possible at this point.
We have called a meeting with the management company tomorrow to let them know we have voted to part ways with them. We very likely could fire them for-cause, but we suspect the company will be shitheads about that and challenge our claim, want to fight in court, etc.etc.etc. Because of this and our desperate need for actual services from a responsible company we will ask them to voluntarily step down so we can hire a new property management company. If they are unwilling to step down voluntarily we will immediately hand them a 60-day notice, as per our contract.
I was asked by the board president to make some remarks at the beginning of tomorrow’s meeting. It would not be prudent for me to say what I genuinely WANT to say, and I do not like public speaking in uncomfortable situations such as this. I could really use some help crafting a few sentences to summarize all this ridiculousness in as little an inflammatory way as possible.
Also, I was asked to write the 60 days’ notice letter. I have no experience with contracts and verbiage, and I’m feeling panicked about the letter. My sense is that a lot balances on the notice and I want to do everything properly so we can just be done with them. We have interviewed several other companies and intend to hire one, who has said once their contact (which we all have seen and approve of) is signed, they can start within 24 hours. That part is set, we’re just struggling with cutting the current ties/current property management company.
I’d be so grateful for any advice or smart words to help us be rid of a bad property management company.
I am a member of a condominium association board in Wisconsin. We have experienced two years of ongoing problems with our current property management company’s performance -- dubious use of funds, unexplained expenses without insight/proof, lack of timely notification of monthly financials, negligence to obtain board approvals for all items >$500 as per our contact. They have not followed our bylaws to have unmoved cars towed – i.e. a van has been there, unmoved, for six years. Each time we've attempted to address the issue they give some new hoop that has to be jumped through, many words but no action.
They have neglected to heed our specific request that they bid out and hire a professional company to have parking lots re-striped. Instead, they had one of their maintenance staff paint the stripes (remarkably unprofessional job, substandard materials, looked like crap within a couple months) and the mgmt. company pocketed those funds intended for a professional company. They took down accessible parking signs in the lot during the illegal painting which have not yet been re-mounted, so residents who do not have disabilities are now parking in that spot “cuz why not?”
Three members of the previous board + mgmt. company secretly met and took $165,000 out of our interest-bearing Vanguard account, moving it instead into our HOA checking account, purportedly to “catch” one of the board volunteers stealing money that he was not, in fact, stealing. Technically, it was our prev. board who did not follow the appropriate steps to call an actual emergency meeting (because there was no real emergency), but the mgmt.co was in cahoots and equally wrong to meet and remove funds without full approval.
They do not respond to emergency calls in a timely manner. They hired a pest control company to set a live trap on a roof of one of our bldgs to catch a raccoon family living in the attic. The management company did not tell the board the name of the company, the company did not check the trap at all over the Memorial Day holiday weekend (5 days record-setting heat wave) and a raccoon died an absolutely gruesome death that all residents, including children, had to witness since none of us could climb three stories to rescue it. Our city’s animal control dept. called the management company – animal control never got a call back. Our management company has not performed services as requested (supposed to clean gutters in one bldg – did another bldg by mistake and then never did clean the original bldg as requested). THIS is what we're dealing with.
Our new/current board on which I sit was elected a few months ago. Despite repeated contact attempts by several board members, we have been given no explanations for any of these problems. They do not respond to emails and appear to be keeping us as far away as possible at this point.
We have called a meeting with the management company tomorrow to let them know we have voted to part ways with them. We very likely could fire them for-cause, but we suspect the company will be shitheads about that and challenge our claim, want to fight in court, etc.etc.etc. Because of this and our desperate need for actual services from a responsible company we will ask them to voluntarily step down so we can hire a new property management company. If they are unwilling to step down voluntarily we will immediately hand them a 60-day notice, as per our contract.
I was asked by the board president to make some remarks at the beginning of tomorrow’s meeting. It would not be prudent for me to say what I genuinely WANT to say, and I do not like public speaking in uncomfortable situations such as this. I could really use some help crafting a few sentences to summarize all this ridiculousness in as little an inflammatory way as possible.
Also, I was asked to write the 60 days’ notice letter. I have no experience with contracts and verbiage, and I’m feeling panicked about the letter. My sense is that a lot balances on the notice and I want to do everything properly so we can just be done with them. We have interviewed several other companies and intend to hire one, who has said once their contact (which we all have seen and approve of) is signed, they can start within 24 hours. That part is set, we’re just struggling with cutting the current ties/current property management company.
I’d be so grateful for any advice or smart words to help us be rid of a bad property management company.
This makes no sense. Is it a fixed term contract? What does it say about termination? If it has a 60 day notice clause, then the letter literally need to be:
Dear Shitheels:
Per our contract with Shitheel Property Management, I hereby give 60 days termination notice on behalf of the GoFuckYourself Condo Board.
A member of the Board will be at your office at 12 noon on (60 days from now) to collect all keys, passes and whatevers in your posession, a partial list of which is attached.
Sincerely,
Your Name
GoFuckYourself Condo Board
I mean, it's a termination. They don't need to like it, or be given a reason, or agree to it unless your contract says they do. What does the contract say about termination?
posted by DarlingBri at 11:30 AM on June 27, 2018 [20 favorites]
Dear Shitheels:
Per our contract with Shitheel Property Management, I hereby give 60 days termination notice on behalf of the GoFuckYourself Condo Board.
A member of the Board will be at your office at 12 noon on (60 days from now) to collect all keys, passes and whatevers in your posession, a partial list of which is attached.
Sincerely,
Your Name
GoFuckYourself Condo Board
I mean, it's a termination. They don't need to like it, or be given a reason, or agree to it unless your contract says they do. What does the contract say about termination?
posted by DarlingBri at 11:30 AM on June 27, 2018 [20 favorites]
Maybe this wasn't germane to your question about jettisoning the old company, but have you contacted/received bids from potential new management cos? Are you entirely sure that 60 days is enough to find and hire a replacement?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Absolutely do not draft the letter without a lawyer. Do not do ANYTHING in this regard without a lawyer. And, sigh, make sure all the locks are changed.
Also, I wouldn't trust them to not abscond with the funds, so I suggest someone meet with the bank and talk about blocking them from making any transfers or non-scheduled payments without prior authorization of the board. The bank would not want to get caught in a legal kerfuffle.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:45 AM on June 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
Also, I wouldn't trust them to not abscond with the funds, so I suggest someone meet with the bank and talk about blocking them from making any transfers or non-scheduled payments without prior authorization of the board. The bank would not want to get caught in a legal kerfuffle.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:45 AM on June 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
If your contract says that you can terminate with 60 days notice for any reason, then simply say "In accordance with Article X, Paragraph Y of the Contract to Provide Blah Blah, we are exercising our right to terminate this contract with 60 days notice. Notice is hereby given that the contract will be terminated on $TODAY+60. Thank you." Don't say more.
Obviously if notice needs to be made in writing, or signed in blood, or whatever, then do that.
posted by adamrice at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Obviously if notice needs to be made in writing, or signed in blood, or whatever, then do that.
posted by adamrice at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
This does not sound like a situation where you should "ask them to voluntarily step down" in a face to face meeting.
This sounds like a situation where your lawyer should send a very threatening letter that implies you are about to fire them for cause and sue them to recover all of the money they have received over the last X months while they were failing to do the job, but you are maybe willing to negotiate down to just firing them, if they are very nice about it.
Don't start by negotiating against yourself. You have been wronged. Fight. (Of course, if you can't convince the board to adopt this approach then...never mind.)
posted by allegedly at 11:56 AM on June 27, 2018 [27 favorites]
This sounds like a situation where your lawyer should send a very threatening letter that implies you are about to fire them for cause and sue them to recover all of the money they have received over the last X months while they were failing to do the job, but you are maybe willing to negotiate down to just firing them, if they are very nice about it.
Don't start by negotiating against yourself. You have been wronged. Fight. (Of course, if you can't convince the board to adopt this approach then...never mind.)
posted by allegedly at 11:56 AM on June 27, 2018 [27 favorites]
Yeah, it sounds like they have breached your contract in ways that may give YOU the ability to pursue damages. More importantly, depending on the condo association formation docs, your board may be obligated to at least explore pursuing claims for damages on behalf of the association. You need to know whether you have a claim and whether you have an obligation to pursue legal action if you do have a claim before you do anything else here. I am not your lawyer, I am not a Wisconsin lawyer, and this is not legal advice, but you should find a Wisconsin lawyer and talk to them about this situation immediately and definitely before you make any statements to the management company or the association as a whole.
posted by suncages at 12:05 PM on June 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by suncages at 12:05 PM on June 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
IANYL but everything Suncages said. You do not want to be in a position where your lack of correct action can be held against you. Talking to a lawyer in your jusisdiction familiar with this area of law should be your first step before you do anything.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was prepared for this to just be them being kind of bleh at being a management company, in which case I'd agree with keeping the letter as spare as humanly possible and not discussing it with them more than the bare minimum. But with everything else you've described, this is just... so far outside the range of polite dismissal, in particular because prior members of your board are also involved. IANAL, etc, but if the rest of the board did not agree to a lawyer in this situation, I would seriously be considering consulting a lawyer individually about whether anything needed to be done to protect myself from liability, but I definitely would not put myself into the middle of this. Wow.
posted by Sequence at 12:58 PM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Sequence at 12:58 PM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
If they have 60 days to continue "managing" with access to funds and authorization to hire contractors, then they have pleanty of time to do a lot of shady things that will cost you a lot. Yes, talk to a lawyer, but I think the plan should be to totally freeze them out the moment you give them notice. You may have to pay them for 2 months for doing nothing, but that may be cheaper than waiting.
posted by Sophont at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Sophont at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Cancel the meeting.
Get an INDEPENDENT new lawyer.
You guys have been fleeced, the board is being especially naive by not getting a lawyer. It sounds like they have stolen from you AND I SUGGEST STRONGLY THE MOVEMENT OF $165k WAS ACTUALLY DONE TO COVER-UP THEIR STEALING.
No meeting. Stop communicating with them. Get a lawyer, get a forensic accountant to assess your accounts.
Do this NOW.
posted by jbenben at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
Get an INDEPENDENT new lawyer.
You guys have been fleeced, the board is being especially naive by not getting a lawyer. It sounds like they have stolen from you AND I SUGGEST STRONGLY THE MOVEMENT OF $165k WAS ACTUALLY DONE TO COVER-UP THEIR STEALING.
No meeting. Stop communicating with them. Get a lawyer, get a forensic accountant to assess your accounts.
Do this NOW.
posted by jbenben at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
BONUS: When you get documentation of their willful stealing (apparently past board members are involved, too) I want you to contact your state's Attorney General and press charges. Your lawyer can do it, you can do it on your own. Simply turn over the evidence. You don't need permission from anyone else anywhere as a citizen and stakeholder to report a crime. This is almost assuredly a crime. It's enough $$ to be a felony and suing for reimbursement in civil court is an easy prove and win once there's a criminal conviction.
Have courage. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
Have courage. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh, hey. I'm a little less freaked out now about your narrative, and I wanted to add a few things...
Oh, no. Wait. I want to say I was super confused by the fact that your group's response to malfeasance from these folks was to call a meeting with them, rather than doing the bare minimum of reviewing the situation with a lawyer BEFORE contacting the management company for a meeting. There's a lot of money and liability and a contract and laws at play. You all have an interest in formulating the most professional response possible for yourselves, so do that.
I agree with other comments that:
- Freezing them out of your accounts and paying for the 60 days of unused service is the cheapest easiest immediate way out IF your lawyer agrees. (Ask your new lawyer.)
- This can all be handled via mail, no meeting required.
What else is going on here that taking reasonable steps to insure the legal and financial interests of your building wasn't the first step? There is no other step to take, who wants an unnecessary confrontation? Do they lack basic professional business experience, or is there something else going on?
Low drama, reducing harm and legal or financial exposure is the only goal. Thanks for writing everything out. I know you were only looking for a script for the meeting, the only script you need to follow is the one your independent legal representation spells out for you.
posted by jbenben at 2:39 PM on June 27, 2018
Oh, no. Wait. I want to say I was super confused by the fact that your group's response to malfeasance from these folks was to call a meeting with them, rather than doing the bare minimum of reviewing the situation with a lawyer BEFORE contacting the management company for a meeting. There's a lot of money and liability and a contract and laws at play. You all have an interest in formulating the most professional response possible for yourselves, so do that.
I agree with other comments that:
- Freezing them out of your accounts and paying for the 60 days of unused service is the cheapest easiest immediate way out IF your lawyer agrees. (Ask your new lawyer.)
- This can all be handled via mail, no meeting required.
What else is going on here that taking reasonable steps to insure the legal and financial interests of your building wasn't the first step? There is no other step to take, who wants an unnecessary confrontation? Do they lack basic professional business experience, or is there something else going on?
Low drama, reducing harm and legal or financial exposure is the only goal. Thanks for writing everything out. I know you were only looking for a script for the meeting, the only script you need to follow is the one your independent legal representation spells out for you.
posted by jbenben at 2:39 PM on June 27, 2018
And what Sequence says. If your board isn't interested in getting a lawyer involved before taking action, get your own lawyer to guide you through resigning from the board and protecting yourself against future lawsuits. I have seen real estate situations like this before and there's a near zero chance embezzlement isn't involved. If the board collectively won't take reasonable steps to act in the best interests of your building, resign in a respectful way that also protects you from future litigation.
Sorry I freaked out on your behalf, the part of your story where they transferred such a large sum of money was alarming. I alarmed.
posted by jbenben at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry I freaked out on your behalf, the part of your story where they transferred such a large sum of money was alarming. I alarmed.
posted by jbenben at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you so much for the feedback!
Quick background - Our HOA consists almost entirely of Habitat for Humanity homeowners. Usually HfH builds freestanding single-family homes, but in this case they were able to get a deal on slummed-out apartment properties and bought them cheap 23 years ago, fix them up, then sold the units as condominiums to low-income families (us). Unit owners have very little education, experience with serving on a HOA board, and significantly less interest in doing Important Official Things, so having a HOA board with a string of crappy management companies has been a significant challenge over the years. Two years ago we finally were able to convince non-involved unit owners to participate on the board so we burned-out people could have a break. It was the new blood elected to the board two years ago that set off the latest string of unfortunate events. Habitat for Humanity's local office lived in three of the units, until a couple months ago when they built brand-new offices and moved out. HfH's attorney has provided our HOA pro bono assistance. We're not at the top of his list but he does help us look over documents, send letters, etc., so there is someone we can go to for guidance.
In January, when the HOA elected a new board we were not able to have an official vote to fire our management company, but they did conduct an unofficial vote, which resulted in an overwhelming majority of residents in favor of firing the management company. The management company was present at the meeting, and residents were given an opportunity to provide the company feedback about issues we are dissatisfied with and gave them the opportunity to make good. They haven't.
I have shared with our HOA board president the information and suggestions you all so kindly offered yesterday and suggested we cancel today's meeting. She disagrees. She is intent on firing for-cause and wants to give them a max of 1 month, reportedly to give us time to hire the new property management company and get those affairs in order, and time for the current to get all our documents and whatnot to the new company. Personally, I would prefer to end the relationship with the property management company immediately if we're firing for-cause, or just giving them the 60 days notice and watch them do nothing for two months so we can then be done with them, but my sense of the situation is that she is not comfortable just ending services immediately w/out having the replacement company in place and I suspect she will quit if we have to wait any longer than 30 days, and nobody at all will voluntarily take over role of president, of this I am certain, so it's a rock/hard space sorta deal.
We already interviewed and have, as a board, unanimously committed to hiring a specific new company, whose contract we have read and approve of.
Board president explained that she's already been in touch with the atty specifically about what we need to do and how we need to do it. I only recently returned to board service (again) and knew about some of board contact with the attorney, though other bits I'm not fully caught up on. President reported the attorney looked over the list of reasons for which we we wish to fire the management company. The attorney that if we want to fire for case we can do so, just to be aware of the possible ramifications (ie if the current management company fights back). It will take some time to gather all the information but we absolutely can prove our claims. He has advised that for for-cause firing we do not need to have atty letterhead to do that, and he provided other technical advice to the president. The attorney himself will not attend tonight's meeting, but the COO for HfH will be joining us and I have great confidence in her knowledge, experience, and ability to help steer the meeting.
Real limited on time right now so I have to post and run - apologies that I didn't answer all the questions but I really do appreciate your feedback and help, and I will hop in here after the meeting with an update.
posted by mcbeth at 6:56 AM on June 28, 2018
Quick background - Our HOA consists almost entirely of Habitat for Humanity homeowners. Usually HfH builds freestanding single-family homes, but in this case they were able to get a deal on slummed-out apartment properties and bought them cheap 23 years ago, fix them up, then sold the units as condominiums to low-income families (us). Unit owners have very little education, experience with serving on a HOA board, and significantly less interest in doing Important Official Things, so having a HOA board with a string of crappy management companies has been a significant challenge over the years. Two years ago we finally were able to convince non-involved unit owners to participate on the board so we burned-out people could have a break. It was the new blood elected to the board two years ago that set off the latest string of unfortunate events. Habitat for Humanity's local office lived in three of the units, until a couple months ago when they built brand-new offices and moved out. HfH's attorney has provided our HOA pro bono assistance. We're not at the top of his list but he does help us look over documents, send letters, etc., so there is someone we can go to for guidance.
In January, when the HOA elected a new board we were not able to have an official vote to fire our management company, but they did conduct an unofficial vote, which resulted in an overwhelming majority of residents in favor of firing the management company. The management company was present at the meeting, and residents were given an opportunity to provide the company feedback about issues we are dissatisfied with and gave them the opportunity to make good. They haven't.
I have shared with our HOA board president the information and suggestions you all so kindly offered yesterday and suggested we cancel today's meeting. She disagrees. She is intent on firing for-cause and wants to give them a max of 1 month, reportedly to give us time to hire the new property management company and get those affairs in order, and time for the current to get all our documents and whatnot to the new company. Personally, I would prefer to end the relationship with the property management company immediately if we're firing for-cause, or just giving them the 60 days notice and watch them do nothing for two months so we can then be done with them, but my sense of the situation is that she is not comfortable just ending services immediately w/out having the replacement company in place and I suspect she will quit if we have to wait any longer than 30 days, and nobody at all will voluntarily take over role of president, of this I am certain, so it's a rock/hard space sorta deal.
We already interviewed and have, as a board, unanimously committed to hiring a specific new company, whose contract we have read and approve of.
Board president explained that she's already been in touch with the atty specifically about what we need to do and how we need to do it. I only recently returned to board service (again) and knew about some of board contact with the attorney, though other bits I'm not fully caught up on. President reported the attorney looked over the list of reasons for which we we wish to fire the management company. The attorney that if we want to fire for case we can do so, just to be aware of the possible ramifications (ie if the current management company fights back). It will take some time to gather all the information but we absolutely can prove our claims. He has advised that for for-cause firing we do not need to have atty letterhead to do that, and he provided other technical advice to the president. The attorney himself will not attend tonight's meeting, but the COO for HfH will be joining us and I have great confidence in her knowledge, experience, and ability to help steer the meeting.
Real limited on time right now so I have to post and run - apologies that I didn't answer all the questions but I really do appreciate your feedback and help, and I will hop in here after the meeting with an update.
posted by mcbeth at 6:56 AM on June 28, 2018
Ah! That makes a lot more sense now!
I wish you the best of luck! It's not ideal that the atty advice has been relayed and is not direct. Anywho...
What did the attorney say about the management company's access to the building's money during the interim period, between now and whenever the contact ends? I don't need the answer, I just hope you get a reasonable answer.
I hope it all goes smoothly!
posted by jbenben at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2018
I wish you the best of luck! It's not ideal that the atty advice has been relayed and is not direct. Anywho...
What did the attorney say about the management company's access to the building's money during the interim period, between now and whenever the contact ends? I don't need the answer, I just hope you get a reasonable answer.
I hope it all goes smoothly!
posted by jbenben at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by pinochiette at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2018 [10 favorites]