Contractor problems, I've got them

June 20, 2018 3:32 PM

I hired the contractor from my previous post to do some work on my first house. Even though his bid was twice as high as another bid, he seemed so much more professional and experienced. My problem is that he keeps trying to talk me out of having certain items on the permit. (I want everything on the permit).

He talked me into having some items left off the original permit application because he made it sound like including everything could cause a delay, and I did want to make sure work started on the bathroom ASAP. (I am an idiot, I should not have fallen for this). He said we could easily add those items on later. This at least seems true, you can add things easily.

I went with him for the first permit application meeting, but there were some things that needed correcting and he went back by himself for the final submission. I just went back to the office today to check what he submitted and found that he removed MORE stuff for the final submission without consulting me.

This is stuff that is on the permit:
- complete remodel of an old bathroom replacing all the plumbing, electrical, everything down to the studs
- replace dining room chandelier
- repainting some rooms
- new wood flooring

This is stuff that he is trying to keep off the permit:
- add air conditioning. heating is currently forced air and it is wired for the condenser already.
- add grounding to some old ungrounded outlets
- replacing insulation in the attic
- adding an automatic seismic gas shutoff valve, which he already did, even though this is not currently on the permit. arrrggghhhh.

I have been persistently but politely insisting that everything be added to the permit, but all I get are weaselly responses. Sometimes that stuff "does not need to be on the permit/inspected," sometimes that it will cost me more money if it is, sometimes that we will have to bring things up to a higher standard (we want things like the electrical brought up to the current higher standard, that is the point). I heard one of the subcontractors tell him he should keep the air conditioner off the permit because it will require sealing the ducts to meet energy efficiency standards (we want to meet energy efficiency standards).

I want to call this person and scream at him, but I think that is probably counterproductive.

What I want to happen is for all the stuff to be added to the permit and then the work completed. I don't want someone overseeing work on my house who hates me, so I am trying to stay calm and polite but persistent. I don't really want to fire this guy because hiring any contractor at all is extremely difficult in my area. I want to finish this project and move on with my life.

I have considered just going to the permit office and adding these items myself, but my husband thinks this would be counterproductively aggressive.

Help?

posted by insoluble uncertainty to Home & Garden (9 answers total)

Did his bid include everything that you want on the permit, or just some of it?
posted by danceswithlight at 4:25 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

Is there a reason you need everything on the permit? Sometimes there are valid reasons why you do not include items on a permit (They aren't required to be, adding just raises flags/ may be expected as a course of business regardless of if it is on the permit (your seismic has shutoff example, or grounding outlets) etc.)

Seconding to review your signed contract, is the other stuff you want to add to the permit in the contract? The items he took off, is he still planning on doing them?

I would not go around the contractors back to add things to the permit, but I would ask him to walk you though his rationale politely at the start of the next day. As you suspect, yelling at contractor helps no one, and it does seem that he is generally doing the right things.
posted by larthegreat at 4:40 PM on June 20, 2018 [2 favorites]

I have a relative who is a contractor. He may be acting in your best interests, and I'd follow the advice of larthegreat.

You want to make sure the work gets done, and I'd have a meeting with him to ask about it. He may have a very good reason for it.

Getting stuff done to code is what you want. I got stuff done to code, but maybe all of it wasn't on the permit. But I trusted my relative to make it safe for me and my family. So there's a certain amount of trust here, talk to him and ask him why and let him spell it out for you.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:54 PM on June 20, 2018

Hmm, there is what is technically required to be permitted, and what is the custom in the area? For example, in our CA city, almost everything, even minor like for like replacements, is supposed to have a permit, but for smaller things no one ever pulls them. Out of curiosity I looked at the permit history for houses in our neighborhood recently sold or up for sale, most of which had a fair amount of bathroom/kitchen remodeling done, and no permits had been pulled. Roofs, additions, all windows being replaced, significant changes to floor plan, those all seemed to have permits.

Before we knew the local custom, we insisted our contractor get a permit for replacing a window (they agreed but were reluctant). The inspector who eventually showed up was confused and irritated, though he did sign off on the permit.

So, I would separate out the permitting issues from the issue of whether the contractor is doing things according to your desires and up to code (e.g. sealing ducts).
posted by Wavelet at 5:24 PM on June 20, 2018

Response by poster: Yes all of this work is already in the contract. The contract also says that I will pay all the permitting fees, so if the work is truly up to code the extra inspection should cost him nothing. I can understand skipping permits if you have someone you trust doing the work and you are knowledgeable enough to know whether things are being done correctly, but leaving electrical work out of the permit while including things like painting seems like a red flag to me. This person hasn't earned my trust yet, and I am not knowledgeable enough to check what they are doing, so I am relying on the permit office to be my backup.
posted by insoluble uncertainty at 5:29 PM on June 20, 2018 [3 favorites]

Inspections are a pain for the contractor (work needs to often stop mid-project while you're waiting for the inspector to sign off on something, the contractors guys are left sitting around on the clock, etc.) and the contractor may know that certain local inspectors can be difficult and like to throw their weight around. Also, once an inspector is in an area of a house, they may notice other building code violations and the scope of work may spiral. Some building codes are overkill and will result in hassles for you. (For example, some municipalities require 'arc-fault' circuit breakers for bedroom circuits. These can often suffer from nuisance tripping. 90% of the buildings out there don't have them, and it's not like thousands of people are dying from electrical fires as a result.) I'm not all "building codes are just the man trying to stick it to you" but I wouldn't assume that because work passes an inspection that it's necessarily safe, and I also wouldn't assume that because something is not inspected (or not up to code) that it's terrible and presents an imminent danger. If you are concerned about your contractors work, hire a good independent home inspector to look it over.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 6:19 PM on June 20, 2018

if the work is truly up to code the extra inspection should cost him nothing

Aside from time for scheduling and waiting for possibly an additional inspection.

It all varies by city and state, but the only thing on your list that in my experience should definitely be added to the permit is the AC just because of the additional energy load (so it'll affect your energy efficiency, which was required to be reviewed in California when I worked on such things there). But, if it's already wired for AC and was in the panel it might already be figured in, so even that's not certain. The insulation might be a thing too - if the old insulation isn't up to current code (highly likely), removing it will require you to replace it with up-to-code insulation, not just replace what was there, and that could cause some issues that could get very expensive if you don't have the room to install that much insulation. It may also be that he only bid replacement, not upgrade. Adding the AC may trigger some kind of building envelope review where you'd have to increase insulation anyway (in your walls and roof), so the insulation and AC not being permitted may be the same thing in his mind.

Grounding your existing outlets is just your preference, not something that's required.

But, yeah, the suggestion to have him walk you through the reasoning on why he doesn't want to permit these things sounds like the best option to me.
posted by LionIndex at 6:22 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm going to guess this is your first experience working with a contractor. It's definitely a learning experience and while I think your instincts are good, your execution is off because you clearly don't trust this man. Did he come with references? Were they positive? Would people hire him again?

Possibly the most difficult part of the remodeling process is learning to let go. By going to the permit office several times, once behind the contractor's back, and by clearly stressing about his decisions and work process, you are going to make yourself a terrible stressball. You can't micromanage every aspect of a remodel; that's literally why you're paying a contractor.

But what you can do is insist upon explanations until you're satisfied since you're paying for both work and communication. It's clear you don't get his reasoning for the permits. Have him explain all of this to you. In moving forward, keep having him explain the process instead of getting stressed about why he's doing things. You don't need to scream at him; you just need to ask him.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:16 AM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]

Just a homeowner, but as I understand it in California every whole home AC or furnace install needs HERS testing (by a third party) to verify the efficient operation of the system and get your permit. That's what our HVAC contractor did and what the inspector signed off on.
posted by wnissen at 2:44 PM on June 21, 2018