Teenager wants to spend a month in Las Vegas
May 19, 2018 1:09 PM Subscribe
My son, who will turn 18 in July, plans to move to Las Vegas for the month of August before going to college in September. I think this is a terrible idea because (a) I'd prefer that he spend more of the summer working, and (b) if he's not going to be doing anything productive, I think there are places to travel he'd find a lot more rewarding/ enjoyable. How would you approach conversations about this with him?
*I know that I can't legally stop him.
*He is working part-time now but would be going into debt for this (in addition to taking out college loans).
*His father and I are going to be paying most of his college bills, and neither of us are wealthy, so I'm irked that he feels entitled to take off for a month... if his father or I did that, he wouldn't be able to go to college in the fall.
*He has not been able to provide any reason for why he chose Las Vegas (we live in the Northeast). The reason he wants to go is "for fun." He's not a worldly kid and I think he's bought into LV marketing as a party town, and doesn't understand that it wouldn't be a ton of fun for someone under 21.
*He'd be going alone.
*He has Asperger's, including social skills deficits.
*Like many teenagers, he is consistently overconfident about his abilities but often underperforms.
*I'd be fine with him taking two weeks of vacation on his own in addition to travel with family over the summer.
*I know that I can't legally stop him.
*He is working part-time now but would be going into debt for this (in addition to taking out college loans).
*His father and I are going to be paying most of his college bills, and neither of us are wealthy, so I'm irked that he feels entitled to take off for a month... if his father or I did that, he wouldn't be able to go to college in the fall.
*He has not been able to provide any reason for why he chose Las Vegas (we live in the Northeast). The reason he wants to go is "for fun." He's not a worldly kid and I think he's bought into LV marketing as a party town, and doesn't understand that it wouldn't be a ton of fun for someone under 21.
*He'd be going alone.
*He has Asperger's, including social skills deficits.
*Like many teenagers, he is consistently overconfident about his abilities but often underperforms.
*I'd be fine with him taking two weeks of vacation on his own in addition to travel with family over the summer.
I guess one obvious question is: is he even financially capable of taking this extended vacation in Vegas? You say that he would be going into debt for this -- but who is going to lend this 18-year-old the money? If he has credit cards, are you or his father on them and hence would be incurring the debt yourselves? That you can and should stop.
My guess is that he isn't actually financially capable of taking this trip, and that you have no need to set yourself up as the bad guy -- just let the world stop him.
posted by crazy with stars at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2018 [24 favorites]
My guess is that he isn't actually financially capable of taking this trip, and that you have no need to set yourself up as the bad guy -- just let the world stop him.
posted by crazy with stars at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2018 [24 favorites]
Alternate thought -- it just occurred to me that DEF CON is happening in August. Any chance he'd want to be going for that?
posted by halation at 1:29 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by halation at 1:29 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
How would you approach conversations about this with him?
I'd start by choosing one consistent tack. Teenagers often can't appreciate the nuance of, "I'd prefer you work; but if you're going to party, then I'd prefer you party differently." Your complaint about college payments and debt is reasonable, but it's difficult to take that stand while also saying it's fine if he wants to bum around Miami or Rome or wherever.
Personally, I'd tell him that he needs to work. Part of the deal of Mom and Dad paying for college is that he isn't simultaneously tossing money out the window. But you can go the other direction and explain that Vegas is an industry, it's not trying to compete with Disney anymore, and nowadays it's an industry that simply isn't aimed at his demographic. The world is full of places to bum around that are designed for people in his bracket. Do them now, while they'll be fun. Do Vegas later, when it'll be fun.Work Play smart, not hard.
posted by cribcage at 1:45 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'd start by choosing one consistent tack. Teenagers often can't appreciate the nuance of, "I'd prefer you work; but if you're going to party, then I'd prefer you party differently." Your complaint about college payments and debt is reasonable, but it's difficult to take that stand while also saying it's fine if he wants to bum around Miami or Rome or wherever.
Personally, I'd tell him that he needs to work. Part of the deal of Mom and Dad paying for college is that he isn't simultaneously tossing money out the window. But you can go the other direction and explain that Vegas is an industry, it's not trying to compete with Disney anymore, and nowadays it's an industry that simply isn't aimed at his demographic. The world is full of places to bum around that are designed for people in his bracket. Do them now, while they'll be fun. Do Vegas later, when it'll be fun.
posted by cribcage at 1:45 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm pretty sure he isn't thinking about any specific events there. He does not have any friends there. I agree that it would not actually be a fun trip for him but he won't hear that from me.
I have asked him to put a budget together to see if it's realistic and he says "he has it under control." I'm sure he has not looked at costs carefully but am also not sure how to get him to. He tells me airfares that don't include taxes/fees, the monthly cost of an apartment that would require a year's lease, etc.
From working, he may have enough savings to pull off the trip... or at least to fly out there and then run out of money. (In which case, I'll want advice on consequences for rescuing him!) He thinks he'll be able to get a credit card to help; I don't know if that's actually realistic these days. His savings were supposed to pay for books, spending money, and fronting the amount he's supposed to make through work-study. His grandparents are offering to contribute enough to tuition so he doesn't have to take out unsubsidized loans this year, and I suspect he would subvert their intentions and take out those loans anyway to cover that missing money.
posted by metasarah at 1:48 PM on May 19, 2018
I have asked him to put a budget together to see if it's realistic and he says "he has it under control." I'm sure he has not looked at costs carefully but am also not sure how to get him to. He tells me airfares that don't include taxes/fees, the monthly cost of an apartment that would require a year's lease, etc.
From working, he may have enough savings to pull off the trip... or at least to fly out there and then run out of money. (In which case, I'll want advice on consequences for rescuing him!) He thinks he'll be able to get a credit card to help; I don't know if that's actually realistic these days. His savings were supposed to pay for books, spending money, and fronting the amount he's supposed to make through work-study. His grandparents are offering to contribute enough to tuition so he doesn't have to take out unsubsidized loans this year, and I suspect he would subvert their intentions and take out those loans anyway to cover that missing money.
posted by metasarah at 1:48 PM on May 19, 2018
Any chance you can take him there for a weekend? With any luck he'll be bored out of his skull in no time.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:54 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:54 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Cribcage, thusfar I have been focused on telling him he needs to work. But the only power I have over him to enforce that would be to withhold tuition money, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stop him, and I DO want him to go to college in the fall.
posted by metasarah at 1:55 PM on May 19, 2018
posted by metasarah at 1:55 PM on May 19, 2018
It sounds like your kid has little real life experience with money. Maybe in June, you let him in on all the real life way money works? Like he keeps a spending journal and you let him see your household monthly and annual budget? You could also spend some time planning his getaway financially, tell him as his parents you have to know his real budget. Call the apartment he has identified and ask about a month long lease. Call the airline and try to buy a ticket with no tax. Look up his credit score and use the terms of a card he could get, and count up how much it would cost to charge a month in Vegas and for how long he would be paying it down. Compare this to other experiences you know he wants. A month in Vegas...or being able to lease a car for a year, or going on spring break with new friends in college.
It seems like some basic financial literacy coupled with some real life costs might help him make a better decision for how to have a fun vacation this summer , whether a month in Vegas or 2 weeks camping or whatever.
posted by holyrood at 2:14 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
It seems like some basic financial literacy coupled with some real life costs might help him make a better decision for how to have a fun vacation this summer , whether a month in Vegas or 2 weeks camping or whatever.
posted by holyrood at 2:14 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
He probably is just bored out of his mind. I think I spent the three months before college just playing the Sims 2, mostly because I was already aware that I was so bored that I couldn't get any excitement from a single place I go to anyways. I ended up getting diagnosed for clinical depression and anxiety a few years later.
A part of me is wondering what his deeper reasoning is and how self aware he is emotionally, and whether he just wants some sort of excitement or risk to experience something.
If you can emotionally handle it, I would just let him go and let him crash and burn and come back and realize some hard truths. If he has any sense, he will want to come back. Otherwise, just say no and keep explaining the realities that he will experience.
posted by yueliang at 2:18 PM on May 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
A part of me is wondering what his deeper reasoning is and how self aware he is emotionally, and whether he just wants some sort of excitement or risk to experience something.
If you can emotionally handle it, I would just let him go and let him crash and burn and come back and realize some hard truths. If he has any sense, he will want to come back. Otherwise, just say no and keep explaining the realities that he will experience.
posted by yueliang at 2:18 PM on May 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not sure I agree that withholding tuition is the only power you wield. Disapproval and shame are powerful tools. I realize gender stereotypes aren't a very popular subject around MetaFilter, but I think they tend to be pretty powerful with people in general and specifically with teenaged boys. The idea of bumming shiftlessly around Vegas while your hardworking mommy and daddy pay your college bills isn't very manly, which is a concept that—for better or worse—holds sway for most 17-year-old American boys.
Maybe that's not true for him. Or maybe you aren't comfortable using those tools. (Obviously I'd frame them more gently and diplomatically.) If that's the case, that's fine, but at some point you have to accept that you're boxing yourself in and yielding the battle.
I have asked him to put a budget together to see if it's realistic and he says "he has it under control." I'm sure he has not looked at costs carefully but am also not sure how to get him to.
Well, what background does he have, for this stuff? For instance, let's turn to the flip side of the discussion, tuition. Does he have an understanding of just how much college is going to cost, where that money is going—and more importantly, how easy or hard it will be for you and his dad to earn it? If you've never sat him down and talked candidly and analytically about finances, then it's small wonder if he doesn't have a realistic plan.
Maybe frame the issue this way for your conversation with him: "Either your finances are our business, or they're not. We plan on paying for your college tuition. That makes your finances—what you're able to pay, and for what—our business. If you'd like us out of your business, we can do that instead. But in that case, you'll be on your own for tuition." I get that you want him to go to college. Maybe some part of this conversation with him is realizing that a cake-and-eat-it-too moment needs to happen for you both. Good luck.
posted by cribcage at 2:23 PM on May 19, 2018 [21 favorites]
Maybe that's not true for him. Or maybe you aren't comfortable using those tools. (Obviously I'd frame them more gently and diplomatically.) If that's the case, that's fine, but at some point you have to accept that you're boxing yourself in and yielding the battle.
I have asked him to put a budget together to see if it's realistic and he says "he has it under control." I'm sure he has not looked at costs carefully but am also not sure how to get him to.
Well, what background does he have, for this stuff? For instance, let's turn to the flip side of the discussion, tuition. Does he have an understanding of just how much college is going to cost, where that money is going—and more importantly, how easy or hard it will be for you and his dad to earn it? If you've never sat him down and talked candidly and analytically about finances, then it's small wonder if he doesn't have a realistic plan.
Maybe frame the issue this way for your conversation with him: "Either your finances are our business, or they're not. We plan on paying for your college tuition. That makes your finances—what you're able to pay, and for what—our business. If you'd like us out of your business, we can do that instead. But in that case, you'll be on your own for tuition." I get that you want him to go to college. Maybe some part of this conversation with him is realizing that a cake-and-eat-it-too moment needs to happen for you both. Good luck.
posted by cribcage at 2:23 PM on May 19, 2018 [21 favorites]
I agree with crazy with stars that this scheme sort of sounds like a fantasy that will, with some luck, quietly dissolve once it comes in contact with reality - once he tries to rent the 1-year lease place for a month and is laughed off the phone, or goes to pay for his plane ticket and realizes it's double the cost with taxes/fees... If/when this happens, don't make too big of a deal about it and try to refrain "I told you so", which might cause him to dig his heels in and make some poor decisions to prove you wrong - something more like "gee, too bad that didn't work out. Your dad and I are planning on [more sensible thing], what do you think?" might let him backtrack while saving face.
posted by btfreek at 2:36 PM on May 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by btfreek at 2:36 PM on May 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
I have asked him to put a budget together to see if it's realistic and he says "he has it under control." I'm sure he has not looked at costs carefully but am also not sure how to get him to. He tells me airfares that don't include taxes/fees, the monthly cost of an apartment that would require a year's lease, etc.
Well, that's not under control, is it, and it speaks to magical and immature thinking. If he wants to go, then he needs to make a budget and a spreadsheet and have actual costs and finances planned out.
Getting a credit card (if he even could) to cover debt for an 18 year old is an extraordinarily bad idea, and as his parent, you can absolutely tell him that's not going to happen. I'm a big fan of allowing real world consequences for my kids' decisions, but this isn't a good idea. He can't even plan for it, he definitely can't afford it, he has no friends or family or prospects in Vegas, and he's going to return and then head off to college? This would be dopey for neurotypical teens--for a kid on the spectrum this could be disastrous.
I think you know this is a pretty immature idea, and I think you know it speaks to typical teen wanderlust and life changes. He's looking to have an adventure and act like a grownup before he goes to college. You need to figure out how to let him have that.
Having said all of this, if I had $10 for every exciting trip my three kids planned and never took (week on the Cape! roadtrip across the US! bus to Coachella! hosteling across Europe!), I would have at least $100. And I'm not minimizing my kids at all--it's important to dream and plan and in that planning, realize some things will not work, but other things will.
Depending on how close you are to him, I think it's fine to cut to the chase and explain you understand his need to fly and you want to support that, but it's needs to be something he can actually afford financially but also mentally. This Vegas trip is not it, but maybe he can keep thinking and find something else. Be supportive but be honest.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:37 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
Well, that's not under control, is it, and it speaks to magical and immature thinking. If he wants to go, then he needs to make a budget and a spreadsheet and have actual costs and finances planned out.
Getting a credit card (if he even could) to cover debt for an 18 year old is an extraordinarily bad idea, and as his parent, you can absolutely tell him that's not going to happen. I'm a big fan of allowing real world consequences for my kids' decisions, but this isn't a good idea. He can't even plan for it, he definitely can't afford it, he has no friends or family or prospects in Vegas, and he's going to return and then head off to college? This would be dopey for neurotypical teens--for a kid on the spectrum this could be disastrous.
I think you know this is a pretty immature idea, and I think you know it speaks to typical teen wanderlust and life changes. He's looking to have an adventure and act like a grownup before he goes to college. You need to figure out how to let him have that.
Having said all of this, if I had $10 for every exciting trip my three kids planned and never took (week on the Cape! roadtrip across the US! bus to Coachella! hosteling across Europe!), I would have at least $100. And I'm not minimizing my kids at all--it's important to dream and plan and in that planning, realize some things will not work, but other things will.
Depending on how close you are to him, I think it's fine to cut to the chase and explain you understand his need to fly and you want to support that, but it's needs to be something he can actually afford financially but also mentally. This Vegas trip is not it, but maybe he can keep thinking and find something else. Be supportive but be honest.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:37 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
Dude, like, no.
"If you can't give me a good reason why you're going to Vegas, budget on how you're going to manage this without me bailing you out, and how you're going to pay living expenses in college in 3 months, well - then I'm not paying your college."
You say Asperger's.. so does he have a therapist? Have him talk it through there.
I have 2 in college and one more to go. Sorry - but fuck that. You want to be a grown up and go party? Then go pay the bills.
Not only that, but the month of August? Are you kidding me? Most colleges have move in last week of August (except one of my son's school which is labor day - ugh) . But Freshman usually are even earlier.
Packing? Prep? All the other stuff? And he's not even home? Yeah, that's a non-starter right there.
Forget money - just practicality of it all. I'm cool with my kids and try to be diplomatic.. but even though 2 are way over 18, I don't take shit from them when I'm paying the dime. Legally, no you can't stop him. But practically every other way you can.
Joint account? Take all the funds out. Credit card you sponsored? Gone. Car rise to school and help moving in? Nope. Ride to the airport to go to Vegas? No. Oh, buying an airplane ticket? Go ahead on your own.
I know the Asperger's has a bit of a twist on this, but, in the end - legal isn't the issue. But if he's making a dumb fuck decision, you need to be up front. He wants to be an adult? Treat him like one and just say - stupid idea. I'm not doing it.
posted by rich at 2:38 PM on May 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
"If you can't give me a good reason why you're going to Vegas, budget on how you're going to manage this without me bailing you out, and how you're going to pay living expenses in college in 3 months, well - then I'm not paying your college."
You say Asperger's.. so does he have a therapist? Have him talk it through there.
I have 2 in college and one more to go. Sorry - but fuck that. You want to be a grown up and go party? Then go pay the bills.
Not only that, but the month of August? Are you kidding me? Most colleges have move in last week of August (except one of my son's school which is labor day - ugh) . But Freshman usually are even earlier.
Packing? Prep? All the other stuff? And he's not even home? Yeah, that's a non-starter right there.
Forget money - just practicality of it all. I'm cool with my kids and try to be diplomatic.. but even though 2 are way over 18, I don't take shit from them when I'm paying the dime. Legally, no you can't stop him. But practically every other way you can.
Joint account? Take all the funds out. Credit card you sponsored? Gone. Car rise to school and help moving in? Nope. Ride to the airport to go to Vegas? No. Oh, buying an airplane ticket? Go ahead on your own.
I know the Asperger's has a bit of a twist on this, but, in the end - legal isn't the issue. But if he's making a dumb fuck decision, you need to be up front. He wants to be an adult? Treat him like one and just say - stupid idea. I'm not doing it.
posted by rich at 2:38 PM on May 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
Two things that are missing from this post: what are his attitudes towards gambling and prostitution?
Because I know teenagers who went to Vegas around his age (without their friends) in order to live out sexual fantasies they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.
Also know young men who think they know how to beat the system, and go to Vegas or Atlantic City to test their theory.
posted by egeanin at 2:57 PM on May 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
Because I know teenagers who went to Vegas around his age (without their friends) in order to live out sexual fantasies they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.
Also know young men who think they know how to beat the system, and go to Vegas or Atlantic City to test their theory.
posted by egeanin at 2:57 PM on May 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
My guess is he's been vague and evasive about his plans because the purpose of the trip is to lose his virginity in a legal brothel.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:05 PM on May 19, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 3:05 PM on May 19, 2018 [40 favorites]
Where is Dad in all this? Banking off cribcage's point about gender roles, is it possible he would pay attention to a "man-to-man" talk about realistic budgeting and the fact that LV is really not going to be much fun for someone too young to drink and gamble?
posted by soundguy99 at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2018
posted by soundguy99 at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2018
My mother would have said, "If you're old enough and responsible enough to do this, then you're old enough and responsible enough to take care of college yourself."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:54 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:54 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
The timing is interesting. Could he be looking to do something that will elevate him in the eyes of potential peers when he starts college? Vegas associations for non-worldly teens are likely to be idealised notions of a fast-track into 'adult' domains via sex or gambling. In which case he'll never tell you, so don't hedge, just flat out say no.
Maybe he could plan to go next summer instead - as long as he pays for it himself and takes a friend. That'll give him some currency to take to college. And if he hasn't lost the motivation by then he'll be older and presumably a bit less green, making it less of a risk.
posted by freya_lamb at 4:06 PM on May 19, 2018
Maybe he could plan to go next summer instead - as long as he pays for it himself and takes a friend. That'll give him some currency to take to college. And if he hasn't lost the motivation by then he'll be older and presumably a bit less green, making it less of a risk.
posted by freya_lamb at 4:06 PM on May 19, 2018
However, you approach this conversation, it has to include presenting him with a choice: either he goes to Vegas for a month, or he gets help from you with tuition. But you simply cannot allow him to take this stupid, stupid trip while also going ahead with helping him financially with university. He wants to be a big boy? Force him to make a big boy choice.
posted by fso at 5:09 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by fso at 5:09 PM on May 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
So one other power you have is your relationship.
When he says "Don't worry, I've got it taken care of", I've had luck with a response that says
"You may have it taken care of. But I am really worried about whether you can afford this trip and still have enough money to pay for your college expenses in the fall."
Kid: "Mom, don't worry"
Me: "I'm your mother. I love you and I'm worried. If you don't want me to worry, you need to give me enough information so that I can see it is fine."
And then push on "I need to know that this is really OK - please convince me so I can stop worrying you"
When he has partial information, continue with the stance that you can't be OK with him going until you know that he has finances worked out. You should make sure that you and he look at his college expenses carefully and in detail so he can understand what is expected him and what the implications would be if he doesn't have enough money.
If he flat says "FU I'm going anyway" then you can have a conversation about what you do for him and what the consequences might be but if he isn't prone to be that rebellious then hopefully, the combination of being pushed to really figure out the costs of the trip and a better understanding what else he needs money for will help him see the light. He won't ever say you were right but maybe the plans will just fade away.
posted by metahawk at 5:41 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
When he says "Don't worry, I've got it taken care of", I've had luck with a response that says
"You may have it taken care of. But I am really worried about whether you can afford this trip and still have enough money to pay for your college expenses in the fall."
Kid: "Mom, don't worry"
Me: "I'm your mother. I love you and I'm worried. If you don't want me to worry, you need to give me enough information so that I can see it is fine."
And then push on "I need to know that this is really OK - please convince me so I can stop worrying you"
When he has partial information, continue with the stance that you can't be OK with him going until you know that he has finances worked out. You should make sure that you and he look at his college expenses carefully and in detail so he can understand what is expected him and what the implications would be if he doesn't have enough money.
If he flat says "FU I'm going anyway" then you can have a conversation about what you do for him and what the consequences might be but if he isn't prone to be that rebellious then hopefully, the combination of being pushed to really figure out the costs of the trip and a better understanding what else he needs money for will help him see the light. He won't ever say you were right but maybe the plans will just fade away.
posted by metahawk at 5:41 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
He thinks he'll be able to get a credit card to help
What does that even mean? What would his plan be for paying it back?
His savings were supposed to pay for books, spending money, and fronting the amount he's supposed to make through work-study. His grandparents are offering to contribute enough to tuition so he doesn't have to take out unsubsidized loans this year, and I suspect he would subvert their intentions and take out those loans anyway to cover that missing money.
Can he actually take out loans without a cosigner?
I don't know, he sounds like a kid who has never had to worry about money and has no idea how to think about it or understand its impact. Is he someone who would listen to "you can do this next year, after you've spent a year using your own money for absolutely everything beyond tuition, dorm fees, and travel costs for coming home"? (You don't say if you're paying for his meals. Maybe you shouldn't?)
It just seems really problematic that his answer to possible shortage is to borrow. Is he okay at math? Does he know how to calculate the way interest rates accumulate? Does he understand how much he'd be screwing over his (not so) future self?
Also, I don't know much about Vegas, but apart from the shows, which I assume he cannot come near affording a month of... what's left really is gambling, bars and legal prostitution, right? Unless Vegas is a hub for affordable attractions I'm not aware of. That seems like an elephant in the room, where the first two speak a lot about responsibility, and the last about potentially problematic attitudes or fears about women and sex.
posted by trig at 6:53 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
What does that even mean? What would his plan be for paying it back?
His savings were supposed to pay for books, spending money, and fronting the amount he's supposed to make through work-study. His grandparents are offering to contribute enough to tuition so he doesn't have to take out unsubsidized loans this year, and I suspect he would subvert their intentions and take out those loans anyway to cover that missing money.
Can he actually take out loans without a cosigner?
I don't know, he sounds like a kid who has never had to worry about money and has no idea how to think about it or understand its impact. Is he someone who would listen to "you can do this next year, after you've spent a year using your own money for absolutely everything beyond tuition, dorm fees, and travel costs for coming home"? (You don't say if you're paying for his meals. Maybe you shouldn't?)
It just seems really problematic that his answer to possible shortage is to borrow. Is he okay at math? Does he know how to calculate the way interest rates accumulate? Does he understand how much he'd be screwing over his (not so) future self?
Also, I don't know much about Vegas, but apart from the shows, which I assume he cannot come near affording a month of... what's left really is gambling, bars and legal prostitution, right? Unless Vegas is a hub for affordable attractions I'm not aware of. That seems like an elephant in the room, where the first two speak a lot about responsibility, and the last about potentially problematic attitudes or fears about women and sex.
posted by trig at 6:53 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are plenty of reasons discussed above why this trip isn't a good idea. I think it's important though to separate the problems with this trip and your feelings about him taking some time off in general. There are two somewhat related issues here: one is that you want him to work more, and the second is that this specific trip doesn't sound like it will turn out great.
He's just finishing high school, is about to start another school, and the idea of some kind of "for fun" independent activity to celebrate his accomplishment and prepare for the next step is, on its face, a reasonable desire. That desire doesn't overrule the logistical and financial constraints that make this trip problematic—welcome to being an adult—, but if your main focus is telling him he needs to work, the main message he's getting is nagging about responsibility rather than the idea that there's still something he can do within the practical constraints.
Would he be at all open to working with you to find some kind of fun (actually fun, not underage Vegas for a month "fun") way to commemorate this transition that's less problematic?
posted by zachlipton at 8:17 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
He's just finishing high school, is about to start another school, and the idea of some kind of "for fun" independent activity to celebrate his accomplishment and prepare for the next step is, on its face, a reasonable desire. That desire doesn't overrule the logistical and financial constraints that make this trip problematic—welcome to being an adult—, but if your main focus is telling him he needs to work, the main message he's getting is nagging about responsibility rather than the idea that there's still something he can do within the practical constraints.
Would he be at all open to working with you to find some kind of fun (actually fun, not underage Vegas for a month "fun") way to commemorate this transition that's less problematic?
posted by zachlipton at 8:17 PM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
When you’re covering all your own bills, tuition and standing on your own two feet, then you get to tell your parents, “Don’t worry about it, I’m fine”and expect them to respect the answer. But as long as he’s a dependant, spending your money on tuition, living under your roof and having the expectation that when he’s stranded somewhere or has ruined his credit, you’ll cover him, he’s lost the right to tell you to mind your own business when you ask him what his plans are.
If he’s so grown up he doesn’t need you, I guess he’s adult enough to pay for college, if he’s still a dependant though, he doesn’t get to blow wads of cash in a gambling town while kicking back and having Mummy and Daddy run themselves ragged picking up the check for his lifestyle.
This is a chance to teach him respect. You can either lay down the law and tell him no or let him go, learn the hard way about budgeting and allow him to bear whatever consequences there are from his actions without saving him. Like any other adult.
posted by Jubey at 10:10 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
If he’s so grown up he doesn’t need you, I guess he’s adult enough to pay for college, if he’s still a dependant though, he doesn’t get to blow wads of cash in a gambling town while kicking back and having Mummy and Daddy run themselves ragged picking up the check for his lifestyle.
This is a chance to teach him respect. You can either lay down the law and tell him no or let him go, learn the hard way about budgeting and allow him to bear whatever consequences there are from his actions without saving him. Like any other adult.
posted by Jubey at 10:10 PM on May 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Ideally, there would be some kind of less radical summer adventure possible to suggest. Say, if there was a town nearby with a great beach where he could get a summer job and share a place with another young man doing the same thing. Or if you were someplace with a lot of small amusement parks, like in central Pennsylvania, where he could drive around for a week checking out the coasters.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:28 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:28 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he’s so grown up he doesn’t need you, I guess he’s adult enough to pay for college,
I think the problem with all this excellent advice is that OP is (probably) not willing to sacrifice the college plans. What if he decides „eh, I can handle Vegas AND college. Whatever.“ We all know he can‘t but he doesn‘t seem to understand the first thing about money. And it‘s well possible that he doesn‘t care as much about college as OP does in the first place.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:02 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think the problem with all this excellent advice is that OP is (probably) not willing to sacrifice the college plans. What if he decides „eh, I can handle Vegas AND college. Whatever.“ We all know he can‘t but he doesn‘t seem to understand the first thing about money. And it‘s well possible that he doesn‘t care as much about college as OP does in the first place.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:02 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can and should forbid him from a month long trip to Vegas paid for by credit. If he's that desperate to go maybe allow it for 4 or 5 days, tops. After he works enough earlier in the summer to pay for it in full.
posted by emd3737 at 5:43 AM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 5:43 AM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all. One of the things that makes this strange is that in the past he HAS had good conceptions of how money and budgeting work. We live in a place where most people have a lot more money than us, and he's had control over his own personal spending since he was 8, and pays for his own phone/ car insurance/ entertainment/ etc. What's clearly missing is the understanding that prices he sees on Craigslist are not likely to be available to him, and a holistic view of expenses.
Being flat-out told he may not do this is the most likely way for him to dig in his heels and do it come hell or high water.
I have been seriously considering withholding tuition if he does, and already told him that a couple months ago, but that is a VERY difficult choice for me. (He was talking about this then and eventually stopped, which I thought was because he'd realized it wasn't going to work, but apparently not since it came up again yesterday.)
I've also offered him a more local (NYC or another driving-distance city of his choice) short-term trip as a graduation present but he hasn't been enthusiastic.
posted by metasarah at 7:08 AM on May 20, 2018
Being flat-out told he may not do this is the most likely way for him to dig in his heels and do it come hell or high water.
I have been seriously considering withholding tuition if he does, and already told him that a couple months ago, but that is a VERY difficult choice for me. (He was talking about this then and eventually stopped, which I thought was because he'd realized it wasn't going to work, but apparently not since it came up again yesterday.)
I've also offered him a more local (NYC or another driving-distance city of his choice) short-term trip as a graduation present but he hasn't been enthusiastic.
posted by metasarah at 7:08 AM on May 20, 2018
If it helps, the first limit on my own (post-CARD-act) student credit card was around $700; my friends all had similar experiences when they chose to get them. If he’s not inclined toward lying or fraud, that will help mitigate the damage that can be done.
posted by mosst at 7:10 AM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mosst at 7:10 AM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
If the main concern is money, would he be responsive to a more "project" related approach? "Honey when I tell my boss, my expenses are under control, it means the controller and I have set the budget and determined which lines the money is coming from, including flights, hotels, meals and incidentals such as taxi and uber/lyft and client entertainment, and that I am resposible for costs outside over that. When your dad and I tell you, we have it under control for our vacation budgets, that means he and I have had a similar conversation including having emergency funds. I now need to have that discussion with you prior to agreeing to this."
Also, you comment he has social skills issues. Vegas is a hot spot for problems with teens (trafficking, run aways, etc) - if he can't present himself well, he many be challenged for use of the cards, etc. How would he cope with that?
posted by beaning at 7:27 AM on May 20, 2018
Also, you comment he has social skills issues. Vegas is a hot spot for problems with teens (trafficking, run aways, etc) - if he can't present himself well, he many be challenged for use of the cards, etc. How would he cope with that?
posted by beaning at 7:27 AM on May 20, 2018
For college, will he be living at home or moving to campus? If moving, will he be in dorms or some form of off-campus housing? A conversation about how housing and leases work -- not specific to his Vegas trip, but a more general conversation about living away from home -- may get him realising that a lot of the Vegas Craigslist places, even the month-to-month ones, will be asking for things like proof of income and will generally prefer longer-term leases over a single-month sublet.
posted by halation at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2018
posted by halation at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2018
The dangers of running up debt in college are well documented. There are lots of people living with the consequences of that years, and indeed decades, later. You have some help from the CARD act, as alluded to above. For his future well being, this is really something to concentrate on, I think. You may be able to talk him out of this trip, but he needs to be disabused of this whole credit card notion.
As far as the trip, what if you-- or another friend or family member-- were to take him to Las Vegas for a few days? I'm with others here; it sounds an awful lot like he's met someone online or there's some other agenda. Las Vegas itself is not going to be what he expects and maybe you can find a controlled way to let him find out.
posted by BibiRose at 9:12 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
As far as the trip, what if you-- or another friend or family member-- were to take him to Las Vegas for a few days? I'm with others here; it sounds an awful lot like he's met someone online or there's some other agenda. Las Vegas itself is not going to be what he expects and maybe you can find a controlled way to let him find out.
posted by BibiRose at 9:12 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's not much to do in Vegas if you're not 21 - you can't legally gamble, or drink. I guess you could play the slot machines in the Kwiki Mart or whatever, but the casinos don't want you there. The legal prostitution in Nevada is all rural - it's not allowed in the cities and I think you would need a car to access the rural brothels. There's illegal prostitution in Vegas of course, same as anywhere, although maybe more.
So you're left with walking around the for the free shows, tons of tacky gift stores, and riding the roller coasters. They don't even have the Star Trek attraction anymore!
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:26 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
So you're left with walking around the for the free shows, tons of tacky gift stores, and riding the roller coasters. They don't even have the Star Trek attraction anymore!
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:26 AM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m super curious how he intends to pay for this, including how he would take out debt. Finding housing without a job or a good credit score is already really tough. Even staying in a cheap hotel seems like it would bust an 18 year old’s credit line.
I’m wondering if he met someone online or something like that and he expects to be able to stay with them?
posted by forkisbetter at 10:18 AM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m wondering if he met someone online or something like that and he expects to be able to stay with them?
posted by forkisbetter at 10:18 AM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
As a certain type of mother, I would also feel very uncomfortable withholding tuition over this - it seems like it would take one bad decision and turn into a hugely bad one. (A bad decision about going to Las Vegas should not mean forfeiting college if he is otherwise a sensible kid.) I would look for a more natural consequence - he spends his money, he needs to eat rice and beans next quarter. And then I would be quietly praying that the plans fall through.
I would also be mentally prepared to offer a plane ticket home if it turns out to be needed. Again, I want the kid to learn the lesson without getting themselves into a really dangerous spot. Depending on how they reacted, I might set up a system for getting paid back (hopefully by me not paying something I would usually cover so I don't get into a power struggle collecting it) or, if they seemed to have figured out that the trip really was a bad idea, I might treat it as a lesson in how family can as a safety net for each other because that's what families do in hard times.
posted by metahawk at 11:22 AM on May 20, 2018
I would also be mentally prepared to offer a plane ticket home if it turns out to be needed. Again, I want the kid to learn the lesson without getting themselves into a really dangerous spot. Depending on how they reacted, I might set up a system for getting paid back (hopefully by me not paying something I would usually cover so I don't get into a power struggle collecting it) or, if they seemed to have figured out that the trip really was a bad idea, I might treat it as a lesson in how family can as a safety net for each other because that's what families do in hard times.
posted by metahawk at 11:22 AM on May 20, 2018
ps.I assume grandparents will paying tuition directly to the college - at this point I wouldn't trust him with the money.
posted by metahawk at 11:24 AM on May 20, 2018
posted by metahawk at 11:24 AM on May 20, 2018
This sounds like it will peter out well before he gets anywhere near a plane as long as you take any money out of any joint accounts, cancel any existing joint cards, and make sure nobody (dad? Grandparents?) would co-sign a card for him.
Even if he defied you and got his own credit card and paid for a flight to Vegas with it, what then? He won't be able to get into clubs. Everything in Las Vegas is very expensive. He can't really rent an apartment for a month. He will get a hotel room, wander around for three days and come home.
Tell him that you understand the LV marketing is extremely seductive, and is in fact designed to try to part folks from their common sense, and that you hope he can reach that understanding that the easy way by doing the budget and sparing you all this nonsense, but that if he can't, you'll see him when he gets back.
You might freeze your own credit, just to make sure he doesn't forge your sig on something.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:49 PM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Even if he defied you and got his own credit card and paid for a flight to Vegas with it, what then? He won't be able to get into clubs. Everything in Las Vegas is very expensive. He can't really rent an apartment for a month. He will get a hotel room, wander around for three days and come home.
Tell him that you understand the LV marketing is extremely seductive, and is in fact designed to try to part folks from their common sense, and that you hope he can reach that understanding that the easy way by doing the budget and sparing you all this nonsense, but that if he can't, you'll see him when he gets back.
You might freeze your own credit, just to make sure he doesn't forge your sig on something.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:49 PM on May 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
He’s going to meet up with an internet friend.
posted by LoveHam at 7:32 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by LoveHam at 7:32 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm on team let him go.
Assuming he has his own money that is not yours and a credit line that is not backed by you...its his choice, he might learn a hard lesson, but a <5>
Plus, once he's away at college, he might just go on trips an not even tell you until he's at the airport.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:32 PM on May 21, 2018
Assuming he has his own money that is not yours and a credit line that is not backed by you...its his choice, he might learn a hard lesson, but a <5>
Plus, once he's away at college, he might just go on trips an not even tell you until he's at the airport.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:32 PM on May 21, 2018
I would make him give you the funds for the return flight (and taxis) up front as a "bond". Then if/when it goes wrong he calls you and you book the return flight. And, obviously, no loans or credit cards from you
posted by tillsbury at 9:06 PM on May 21, 2018
posted by tillsbury at 9:06 PM on May 21, 2018
Honestly, my biggest problem with this is timing. You need the whole of August to prep for first semester as a freshman, from orientation, to getting everything you need for the dorm, to getting everything you need for classes, to packing, and then move-in is typically last week of August.. I mean.. whatever about the money, but this is about timing and responsibility - who cares that it's Las Vegas.
I'd like to see a schedule of how he's going to get everything done for college before he goes off on a lark. And Craiglisting Las Vegas? Alone with no backup? That's just, um... yeah, not bright.
But I'd focus on the first thing. People totally underestimate getting ready for school. We didn't, and we still spent half a day in Target after getting the first one moved in because we forgot a bunch of stuff.
posted by rich at 3:06 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd like to see a schedule of how he's going to get everything done for college before he goes off on a lark. And Craiglisting Las Vegas? Alone with no backup? That's just, um... yeah, not bright.
But I'd focus on the first thing. People totally underestimate getting ready for school. We didn't, and we still spent half a day in Target after getting the first one moved in because we forgot a bunch of stuff.
posted by rich at 3:06 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Maybe he'd settle for a long weekend in Vegas, after taking some time to plan out activities and budget. Or, if he drives and has access to a car, maybe you could suggest a summer road trip that involves a stop in Vegas along with a tour of the Southwest? The Hoover Dam is pretty rad and there's a lot of other cool stuff to see, too.
posted by halation at 1:26 PM on May 19, 2018 [13 favorites]