Dating in real life, with complications
May 18, 2018 7:25 PM Subscribe
Explain this to me like I'm five. More details than anyone needs below le fold.
I moved to a new city this year and met this guy really soon after I came here, like a couple days. As soon as I saw him I liked him a lot. I don't want to blow this into some love-at-first-sight kind of thing, because that's not what it was, but I will say it was jarring to me how much I liked him and how quickly it happened.
Except then, as I was going to confess my feelings to some of my friends, Drama ensued, because one of my friends (let's call her D) went on a date with him, and he never followed up with her. She felt rejected and because she's a high conflict/high drama kind of person, she basically decided she hated him. To complicate matters, he asked out another one of our friends soon after (let's call her L), which upset D, and then D got even more upset because L hung out with him as friends and D somehow thought this was being dishonest so she cut her out over it. It's all very ridiculous and high school, I know, and I've since mostly cut these friends out of my life because oh my gosh. But, basically, I never acted on my feelings because I didn't want to ruin my friendship with D. In spite of the very high drama, and trust me I know how utterly ridiculous this sounds (we are all in our 20s, though they are both younger than me) D could be a good friend to me and I didn't want to alienate her or ruin the friendship over a guy.
So I've been low key avoiding this guy since I met him, which was last August. I talk to him if I see him, but I really couldn't bare to be around him because oh damn do I like him. We would talk some, and he was always very receptive and funny and interesting etc and he even made some comments about us hanging out a couple times (once about skiing, and another about going out on my birthday with me and some other people). But I also feel like he's kept some distance from me. I tried taking to him on messenger once and he barely reciprocated. But I was also dating someone else at the time (I wasn't trying to get with him by talking to him; we're going to the same place on vacation and I wanted to know when he was going) and he actually met my ex so who knows.
The point is I could drive myself crazy trying to read all these signals and figure out how he feels and I don't want to do that. Life is short and I've liked this guy a long time and I want to see if he feels the same way. He called me sunshine last week; he saw me walking up and said "hey there sunshine" with a big shit-eating grin on his stupid face and I just.... I can't not try. But it's been a long time and my feelings have had time to grow. So how do I do this? What do I say? I really, really don't want to make him uncomfortable. I met him through a meetup that he now helps run so I'm going to keep seeing him either way, and I don't want it to be weird for either of us. I just really don't want him to feel like I'm putting him on the spot.
So how? I was thinking of saying something to the effect of "hey, you've always seemed cool and I'd like to get to know you more; would you like to [do a thing]?" Is that ok? Would it be better to try and hang out with him more in a group first and then ask later? I can invite him out with some other people, too. That may seem more natural? I really don't know? I don't have his number and I only ever see him in a big group, so it would be hard to do it in person. I'm just used to online, y'all. I can do online for days. But real life is a whole new frontier.
I just want to do this in a way that feels as natural as possible and reduce any discomfort if he doesn't feel the same way as much as possible. Ad it's hard when it's been almost a year of us never hanging out just with each other, and now suddenly I'm asking him out.
So how would you do this?
I moved to a new city this year and met this guy really soon after I came here, like a couple days. As soon as I saw him I liked him a lot. I don't want to blow this into some love-at-first-sight kind of thing, because that's not what it was, but I will say it was jarring to me how much I liked him and how quickly it happened.
Except then, as I was going to confess my feelings to some of my friends, Drama ensued, because one of my friends (let's call her D) went on a date with him, and he never followed up with her. She felt rejected and because she's a high conflict/high drama kind of person, she basically decided she hated him. To complicate matters, he asked out another one of our friends soon after (let's call her L), which upset D, and then D got even more upset because L hung out with him as friends and D somehow thought this was being dishonest so she cut her out over it. It's all very ridiculous and high school, I know, and I've since mostly cut these friends out of my life because oh my gosh. But, basically, I never acted on my feelings because I didn't want to ruin my friendship with D. In spite of the very high drama, and trust me I know how utterly ridiculous this sounds (we are all in our 20s, though they are both younger than me) D could be a good friend to me and I didn't want to alienate her or ruin the friendship over a guy.
So I've been low key avoiding this guy since I met him, which was last August. I talk to him if I see him, but I really couldn't bare to be around him because oh damn do I like him. We would talk some, and he was always very receptive and funny and interesting etc and he even made some comments about us hanging out a couple times (once about skiing, and another about going out on my birthday with me and some other people). But I also feel like he's kept some distance from me. I tried taking to him on messenger once and he barely reciprocated. But I was also dating someone else at the time (I wasn't trying to get with him by talking to him; we're going to the same place on vacation and I wanted to know when he was going) and he actually met my ex so who knows.
The point is I could drive myself crazy trying to read all these signals and figure out how he feels and I don't want to do that. Life is short and I've liked this guy a long time and I want to see if he feels the same way. He called me sunshine last week; he saw me walking up and said "hey there sunshine" with a big shit-eating grin on his stupid face and I just.... I can't not try. But it's been a long time and my feelings have had time to grow. So how do I do this? What do I say? I really, really don't want to make him uncomfortable. I met him through a meetup that he now helps run so I'm going to keep seeing him either way, and I don't want it to be weird for either of us. I just really don't want him to feel like I'm putting him on the spot.
So how? I was thinking of saying something to the effect of "hey, you've always seemed cool and I'd like to get to know you more; would you like to [do a thing]?" Is that ok? Would it be better to try and hang out with him more in a group first and then ask later? I can invite him out with some other people, too. That may seem more natural? I really don't know? I don't have his number and I only ever see him in a big group, so it would be hard to do it in person. I'm just used to online, y'all. I can do online for days. But real life is a whole new frontier.
I just want to do this in a way that feels as natural as possible and reduce any discomfort if he doesn't feel the same way as much as possible. Ad it's hard when it's been almost a year of us never hanging out just with each other, and now suddenly I'm asking him out.
So how would you do this?
Short answer: He created the high drama by ghosting one friend in the group and then pursuing another woman in the same group. Yuck.
Longer answer: From your description he sounds like a charmer, user, or narcissist. I'm sorry, they make you feel so energized and special, right? I mean, it's possible some people like this don't know they are being shitty, but yep, they are ultimately hurtful and toxic.
If you want to sleep with him, ask him out the next time you see him. If you think you can keep it casual I'm sure his company is fun.
For the record, I think he likes flirting with you, but for reasons that are likely in your favor (you're probably a nice person that's not easy to take advantage of) he probably won't ask you out. I think he's keeping you an option, but he's not really interested.
He was unethical and hurtful towards other women you know. He's not a great catch. Grok that he's super unattractive by focusing in on how unkind he was to other women you know. Absolutely don't make excuses for him. If you don't want to be treated poorly, definitely don't date this guy.
posted by jbenben at 7:42 PM on May 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
Longer answer: From your description he sounds like a charmer, user, or narcissist. I'm sorry, they make you feel so energized and special, right? I mean, it's possible some people like this don't know they are being shitty, but yep, they are ultimately hurtful and toxic.
If you want to sleep with him, ask him out the next time you see him. If you think you can keep it casual I'm sure his company is fun.
For the record, I think he likes flirting with you, but for reasons that are likely in your favor (you're probably a nice person that's not easy to take advantage of) he probably won't ask you out. I think he's keeping you an option, but he's not really interested.
He was unethical and hurtful towards other women you know. He's not a great catch. Grok that he's super unattractive by focusing in on how unkind he was to other women you know. Absolutely don't make excuses for him. If you don't want to be treated poorly, definitely don't date this guy.
posted by jbenben at 7:42 PM on May 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: To be clear, he didn't ghost her, he just didn't ask her for another date. He would still talk to her and be friendly and stuff. It was some weeks before he asked out our other friend, and none of us were that close; this is all happening in a meetup group with dozens of people.
I mean, not trying to say you're wrong, but I don't want to give off the impression that he completely stopped speaking to my friend and then immediately started trying to bang our other best friend, because that couldn't be more incorrect. This friend is also inexplicably toxic and high drama and I have to take her impression with a severe grain of salt.
posted by Amy93 at 8:02 PM on May 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I mean, not trying to say you're wrong, but I don't want to give off the impression that he completely stopped speaking to my friend and then immediately started trying to bang our other best friend, because that couldn't be more incorrect. This friend is also inexplicably toxic and high drama and I have to take her impression with a severe grain of salt.
posted by Amy93 at 8:02 PM on May 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I only have one question. If you put yourself out there, go on a date and it doesn’t pan out in much the same way as the other women, will you be ok with this? If you’re fine with having a date or fling that fizzles out, go for it. If you can’t handle being part of the same group or all of your friend drama extending to you after this, then maybe this guy isn’t for you.
posted by Jubey at 8:58 PM on May 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 8:58 PM on May 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I could drive myself crazy trying to read all these signals
There aren't any signals. If you'd like to see if there's any real chemistry here, ask him out as above. But he's not really throwing anything out here, so there's nothing to 'read.' Asking him out is just about the only way to know if he has any interest. And there's no reason to worry about this junk with the other friends. Chances are he is a charismatic, nonserious flirter who likes attention and likes to keep a lot of women on the line. Anyway, there's no reason not to ask him out, so give it a try.
posted by Miko at 9:34 PM on May 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
There aren't any signals. If you'd like to see if there's any real chemistry here, ask him out as above. But he's not really throwing anything out here, so there's nothing to 'read.' Asking him out is just about the only way to know if he has any interest. And there's no reason to worry about this junk with the other friends. Chances are he is a charismatic, nonserious flirter who likes attention and likes to keep a lot of women on the line. Anyway, there's no reason not to ask him out, so give it a try.
posted by Miko at 9:34 PM on May 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
First off, set D and her ridiculous drama aside; it's not relevant to you. Stick to the "I've since mostly cut these friends out of my life because oh my gosh," because, yeah, oh my gosh. The "D could be a good friend to me" thing really wants a Ron Howard "Narrator: she couldn't" after it.
If you're interested in the guy, ask him out on a date. It really is that simple. It is not possible to ask someone out without putting them on the spot; that's just how it is. Trying to sidle up to it by "hanging out with him in a group" (hint: you already are) or "inviting him out with other people" is just sending ambiguous signals. Be clear.
You already have evidence that he's capable of dating someone, having it not work out, and then remaining friendly with them afterwards. And you already have evidence that he enjoys your company. So this all seems pretty low-risk.
posted by ook at 7:13 AM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you're interested in the guy, ask him out on a date. It really is that simple. It is not possible to ask someone out without putting them on the spot; that's just how it is. Trying to sidle up to it by "hanging out with him in a group" (hint: you already are) or "inviting him out with other people" is just sending ambiguous signals. Be clear.
You already have evidence that he's capable of dating someone, having it not work out, and then remaining friendly with them afterwards. And you already have evidence that he enjoys your company. So this all seems pretty low-risk.
posted by ook at 7:13 AM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Your friend that you describe as high drama has likely suffered in the past, you don't have to get up close and personal with people like that, but the way they wear past trauma is not "inexplicable." Hold compassion for this person and try not to describe her in disparaging terms, especially in your own head where no one else can hear.
You spend almost as much time talking about her as you do him, it looks like you are trying to talk us (and yourself) into not caring about her. Or the other friend in the group he dated.
I agree w/ others there are no signals and he's a charmer/flirt who likes the attention. He also might be a user or narcissist, or at least have those tendencies. Either way, he won't ask you out, so you will have to ask him out.
posted by jbenben at 7:57 AM on May 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
You spend almost as much time talking about her as you do him, it looks like you are trying to talk us (and yourself) into not caring about her. Or the other friend in the group he dated.
I agree w/ others there are no signals and he's a charmer/flirt who likes the attention. He also might be a user or narcissist, or at least have those tendencies. Either way, he won't ask you out, so you will have to ask him out.
posted by jbenben at 7:57 AM on May 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
On a personal note, I want to add that one of the ways I spot narcissists now that I am old and have lots of life experience, is I look for the effect they have on me. If I barely know them and yet they tend to dominate my thoughts and feel extra, that's usually a tip off a relationship with them won't be an equal exchange, win/win, mutually fulfilling, etc, etc.. It's important that people give back as much as you give them.
posted by jbenben at 8:02 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jbenben at 8:02 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I'd really prefer that we not focus on my friend here. I'm not looking for advice on her and thats not what the question is supposed to be about. I probably shouldnt have mentioned her; i just wanted to give some context. But its not like he was awful to her and I'm blaming her for it and excusing him even though hes at fault. Please take me at my word for this. I only mentioned it because i don't know if my low key avoiding of him would make it weird for me to suddenly ask him out.
Thanks.
posted by Amy93 at 9:10 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thanks.
posted by Amy93 at 9:10 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
How would I ask him out? Well, directly. I wouldn't beat around the bush. He may find it weird of you to be direct, if he is the type who finds directness rude, or he may find it charming. But you won't know until you ask him.
He sounds like a normal charmer-type guy though, and not all of these types are automatically narcissistic users out to get you. He sounds like a flirt, and he may continue to enjoy flirting with many rather than just you alone, and hopefully, if that is so, he'll be honest about it. If not, this guy is bad news, and now you have your answer and can move on.
posted by Crystal Fox at 12:07 PM on May 19, 2018
He sounds like a normal charmer-type guy though, and not all of these types are automatically narcissistic users out to get you. He sounds like a flirt, and he may continue to enjoy flirting with many rather than just you alone, and hopefully, if that is so, he'll be honest about it. If not, this guy is bad news, and now you have your answer and can move on.
posted by Crystal Fox at 12:07 PM on May 19, 2018
I'm sorry but I agree with jbenben. This guy doesn't sound like a great guy. When I was reading your post I flashed back to my only (very unpleasant!) experience with a narcissistic man. I could have written the whole thing about him.
I may be projecting but I would personally avoid this guy.
posted by thereader at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I may be projecting but I would personally avoid this guy.
posted by thereader at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't think he sounds very interested in you specifically and he does sound like he has a short attention span. You could try asking him out but man, I'd have low expectations of him if I tried. Those flirty charming guys may just be like that by default and you may not be special/bringing it out extra in him. If you tend to cling/attach easily and/or not have too many love interests, this might not be the guy to try to cling to. If you are "easy come, easy go," eh, you might as well try him if you won't be crushed if he flakes.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 PM on May 19, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 PM on May 19, 2018
Put on your big girl panties and go straight for the kill. "Would you like to go on a date, my treat?" Have a date in mind to mention if he says yes. IF he says no, that sucks but at least you can move on with closure and no ambiguity about whether a one on one hang out was a date in his mind too.
Also if you really really feel like you can't do that in person, i think it would be ok to do in online messaging conversation because you're still explicitly asking for a date.
And remember, rejection is a part of life. IT's ok and normal to be hurt, but don't let it drive you to avoidance or blanket prejudice etc.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:37 AM on May 21, 2018
Also if you really really feel like you can't do that in person, i think it would be ok to do in online messaging conversation because you're still explicitly asking for a date.
And remember, rejection is a part of life. IT's ok and normal to be hurt, but don't let it drive you to avoidance or blanket prejudice etc.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:37 AM on May 21, 2018
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Like-- "hey just saw a new veggie place is having an opening party. we have no meetup planned but I wondered if you might want to go with me".
and if he says "hey, can't" without suggesting another appointment, then I would drop it and just hang out with him when you see him.
Or, you could just leave it as a fun crush and use it as a good reason to use the special conditioner the day before the meetups. Crushes are fun, and they don't always need to go anywhere.
posted by frumiousb at 7:36 PM on May 18, 2018 [1 favorite]