Explaining the importance of basic cleanliness
May 4, 2018 5:57 AM Subscribe
How do I get my husband to understand that things like washing his hands and picking up after himself are important?
Married for three years to a great guy. One of the things that bonded us is that we're both HORRIBLE with picking up and keeping things clean. I'm talking clothes and papers hiding the floor, boxes everywhere, clutter above all.
Late last year and early this year, we spent a lot of time and several thousand dollars decluttering and finding a home for everything. Since then, I've been doing okay enough for me. I'm never going to win househusband of the year, but I mostly put things where I think they should be, take care of paperwork reasonably timely, and pick up my things. I get that there's a tradeoff between how clean our place can be and the amount of time I spend on getting it clean, and I think I've found a reasonable balance.
Hubby, however, has gone right back to his cluttering ways. Trash on the floor, food takeout bags on the table for days or weeks at a time, constant wandering around to find things he's misplaced. Things came to a head this morning when I found a flyer on the floor of our front closet, when literally all he had to do was turn 180 degrees, stretch out his arm, and drop the flyer in the kitchen trash can. A really small thing, but it tells me he has no interest in improving.
I've also recently found out that he doesn't wash his hands after using the bathroom or before cooking. That repulses me physically. That repulses me intellectually. (Did you not learn this in freaking kindergarten? You're in your thirties now!) I've even tried showing him the CDC's website about the importance of washing your hands and stopping the spread of disease, and he just dismissed it as me being condescending to him.
I can't control what he does, only my own actions and feelings, so I get that part. So what do I do?
1) Just be responsible for my own stuff, and have him be responsible for his? I pretty much already tell him, "I have no idea what you do with your things, honey," when he asks for my help in finding things he's misplaced, which is admittedly dismissive and yet feels justified.
2) Figure out how to have him want to change his ways, then support him in doing so. But if he doesn't get it now, I have to assume he never will.
3) Some other arrangement we both can live with.
Married for three years to a great guy. One of the things that bonded us is that we're both HORRIBLE with picking up and keeping things clean. I'm talking clothes and papers hiding the floor, boxes everywhere, clutter above all.
Late last year and early this year, we spent a lot of time and several thousand dollars decluttering and finding a home for everything. Since then, I've been doing okay enough for me. I'm never going to win househusband of the year, but I mostly put things where I think they should be, take care of paperwork reasonably timely, and pick up my things. I get that there's a tradeoff between how clean our place can be and the amount of time I spend on getting it clean, and I think I've found a reasonable balance.
Hubby, however, has gone right back to his cluttering ways. Trash on the floor, food takeout bags on the table for days or weeks at a time, constant wandering around to find things he's misplaced. Things came to a head this morning when I found a flyer on the floor of our front closet, when literally all he had to do was turn 180 degrees, stretch out his arm, and drop the flyer in the kitchen trash can. A really small thing, but it tells me he has no interest in improving.
I've also recently found out that he doesn't wash his hands after using the bathroom or before cooking. That repulses me physically. That repulses me intellectually. (Did you not learn this in freaking kindergarten? You're in your thirties now!) I've even tried showing him the CDC's website about the importance of washing your hands and stopping the spread of disease, and he just dismissed it as me being condescending to him.
I can't control what he does, only my own actions and feelings, so I get that part. So what do I do?
1) Just be responsible for my own stuff, and have him be responsible for his? I pretty much already tell him, "I have no idea what you do with your things, honey," when he asks for my help in finding things he's misplaced, which is admittedly dismissive and yet feels justified.
2) Figure out how to have him want to change his ways, then support him in doing so. But if he doesn't get it now, I have to assume he never will.
3) Some other arrangement we both can live with.
He is unwilling to change his behavior. You can try some behavior modification What Shamu Taught Me About a Happy Marriage, and I would focus on the hand washing, which is nasty, but I would hire a cleaner.
posted by theora55 at 6:06 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 6:06 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
The clutter thing isn’t objectively ‘important’ the way hand washing is (per CDC etc.). Some people are totally happy to live with clutter and mess, and that’s fine.
But the thing is, being less cluttered is important to you, his spouse. And when he doesn’t respect your basic requests for maintaining a reasonable standard of living, it’s reasonable for you to feel like he’s disrespecting you.
You get to decide what you will and will not tolerate in a husband, you may get some traction from explaining that leaving shit laying around is bad for you and bad for your marriage, and you may not always accept him putting his own laziness over your happiness.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:08 AM on May 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
But the thing is, being less cluttered is important to you, his spouse. And when he doesn’t respect your basic requests for maintaining a reasonable standard of living, it’s reasonable for you to feel like he’s disrespecting you.
You get to decide what you will and will not tolerate in a husband, you may get some traction from explaining that leaving shit laying around is bad for you and bad for your marriage, and you may not always accept him putting his own laziness over your happiness.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:08 AM on May 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
So, I used to be the messy spouse. What you say your husband is doing sounds very much like me, back in the day (except for the handwashing, which, EW, you are 100% allowed to put your foot down on that issue). My husband and I had many, many arguments about my messiness and nothing changed for me until I decided that he was important enough to me for me to change my behaviors.
I forget where I heard this, but it's been pretty useful for us in 20+years of marriage: some "fights" need to be assigned a number value. For my husband, not having clutter and mess is pretty close to a 10 on a 1-10 scale. Probably more like 11. Or 100. For me, keeping the umbrellas in the cars EVERY DAY even if it's not going to rain is close to a 10. So I help keep the house uncluttered and unmessy and he leaves the umbrellas in the cars.
One compromise we made was my chair in the bedroom. I used to just leave clothes EVERYWHERE, which naturally drove him crazy, so he got me a small armchair and that's where my clothes live until I either put them away or get them to the laundry basket. It's a small thing but it helps me for some reason I can't even parse, and it keeps my clothes off the floor and bed and dressers.
How do you get him to understand you? You have to tell him, point blank.
posted by cooker girl at 6:38 AM on May 4, 2018 [23 favorites]
I forget where I heard this, but it's been pretty useful for us in 20+years of marriage: some "fights" need to be assigned a number value. For my husband, not having clutter and mess is pretty close to a 10 on a 1-10 scale. Probably more like 11. Or 100. For me, keeping the umbrellas in the cars EVERY DAY even if it's not going to rain is close to a 10. So I help keep the house uncluttered and unmessy and he leaves the umbrellas in the cars.
One compromise we made was my chair in the bedroom. I used to just leave clothes EVERYWHERE, which naturally drove him crazy, so he got me a small armchair and that's where my clothes live until I either put them away or get them to the laundry basket. It's a small thing but it helps me for some reason I can't even parse, and it keeps my clothes off the floor and bed and dressers.
How do you get him to understand you? You have to tell him, point blank.
posted by cooker girl at 6:38 AM on May 4, 2018 [23 favorites]
I am a clutter bug (a clean clutter bug, but a clutter bug nonetheless). My husband is a neat freak.
What this means, in practical terms, is that our shared spaces are immaculate and WE BOTH work to keep them that way. My office is my domain and I can have as many papers stacked on my desk as I wish and I take no shit from him for it. Something like that might work for you guys too.
However. The hand washing thing is a HUGE DEAL and I would not abide it. No. Wash your hands, dude, it's gross. I don't care if he'd find it condescending, "don't touch me until you've washed your hands" is a completely acceptable response.
posted by lydhre at 6:39 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
What this means, in practical terms, is that our shared spaces are immaculate and WE BOTH work to keep them that way. My office is my domain and I can have as many papers stacked on my desk as I wish and I take no shit from him for it. Something like that might work for you guys too.
However. The hand washing thing is a HUGE DEAL and I would not abide it. No. Wash your hands, dude, it's gross. I don't care if he'd find it condescending, "don't touch me until you've washed your hands" is a completely acceptable response.
posted by lydhre at 6:39 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
What seems to have helped in my situation is to make sure my partner can see me picking up after her. Sometimes I make a little show of it and emit a sigh as I do so.
posted by exogenous at 6:40 AM on May 4, 2018
posted by exogenous at 6:40 AM on May 4, 2018
This is about building new habits. So it's not that the flyer proves he doesn't have interest in changing (though he might not); it means that he doesn't have the habit of "put things directly where they go" (e.g., in the trash). He could build those habits, of course. But yeah, he'd have to want to, and it might take awhile.
posted by salvia at 6:43 AM on May 4, 2018
posted by salvia at 6:43 AM on May 4, 2018
I live with people who will literally step over garbage for weeks - I play chicken with them sometimes. I've never won yet. I don't know that there is a way to do this: you cannot force someone to care about something they don't care about. You can make ultimatums (and in case of the handwashing you should), and you can explain to them that leaving disorder around feels disrespectful to you and to the life you share, but you simply cannot make them see or think about the mess if they don't want to meet you halfway.
One thing that has helped is for me to loudly and pointedly state all the cleaning tasks I'm going to have to do when I get home, and sometimes that gets through and I will be helped, but more often I have to ask directly for it, which is exhausting. C'est la vie with messy people who don't desire change.
posted by Nyx at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
One thing that has helped is for me to loudly and pointedly state all the cleaning tasks I'm going to have to do when I get home, and sometimes that gets through and I will be helped, but more often I have to ask directly for it, which is exhausting. C'est la vie with messy people who don't desire change.
posted by Nyx at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
What seems to have helped in my situation is to make sure my partner can see me picking up after her. Sometimes I make a little show of it and emit a sigh as I do so.
Oh lordy, DO NOT DO THIS. That is passive agression at its highest. At best, your partner will pick up after themselves only when you're present and watching, and leave a mess behind every other time.
At worst, they will tune you out completely, and when you eventually blow up and say "Why aren't you doing X?" they'll have a legitimate response in saying "Because you were doing it, I never asked you to!" and they will be 100% correct.
Speak your preferences kindly but clearly. Treat your partner like an adult, and the flipside of this is you have the right to expect adult behaviour from them.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:11 AM on May 4, 2018 [34 favorites]
Oh lordy, DO NOT DO THIS. That is passive agression at its highest. At best, your partner will pick up after themselves only when you're present and watching, and leave a mess behind every other time.
At worst, they will tune you out completely, and when you eventually blow up and say "Why aren't you doing X?" they'll have a legitimate response in saying "Because you were doing it, I never asked you to!" and they will be 100% correct.
Speak your preferences kindly but clearly. Treat your partner like an adult, and the flipside of this is you have the right to expect adult behaviour from them.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:11 AM on May 4, 2018 [34 favorites]
At best, your partner will pick up after themselves only when you're present and watching, and leave a mess behind every other time.
Honestly, I think this is just as likely to be the outcome from trying to crack down on his hand-washing, too. Sure, it's gross and everyone should be washing their hands. But he's in his 30s and he's managed to stay alive with his current habits until now, so it's going to be difficult to convince him this should be a priority if he doesn't already believe it. Make him wash his hands if he's preparing food for you, but otherwise I would try to let this one go. He knows how you feel, he surely knows the conventional wisdom and recommendations by the CDC, etc. What else can you do?
As for cleaning up after himself - my husband is the messier one in our relationship and the situation has become a non-issue since he's been able to have his own room (office/studio/project area) to keep as much of a disaster as he likes. I don't go in there; I pretend it's not a part of the house. This still does require some compromise and effort on his part (and I also think as he's grown older and lived with me for twenty years, he sees the benefit of a generally clean and tidy house), but having his own space helps so much. At the very least it's a place to dump all the crap he doesn't feel like actually putting away.
posted by something something at 7:26 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I think this is just as likely to be the outcome from trying to crack down on his hand-washing, too. Sure, it's gross and everyone should be washing their hands. But he's in his 30s and he's managed to stay alive with his current habits until now, so it's going to be difficult to convince him this should be a priority if he doesn't already believe it. Make him wash his hands if he's preparing food for you, but otherwise I would try to let this one go. He knows how you feel, he surely knows the conventional wisdom and recommendations by the CDC, etc. What else can you do?
As for cleaning up after himself - my husband is the messier one in our relationship and the situation has become a non-issue since he's been able to have his own room (office/studio/project area) to keep as much of a disaster as he likes. I don't go in there; I pretend it's not a part of the house. This still does require some compromise and effort on his part (and I also think as he's grown older and lived with me for twenty years, he sees the benefit of a generally clean and tidy house), but having his own space helps so much. At the very least it's a place to dump all the crap he doesn't feel like actually putting away.
posted by something something at 7:26 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
What worked for my husband and I is having the shared spaces in the house be neat and tidy with no clutter. We both share the responsibility of removing clutter, though I do the actual cleaning (ie vacuuming/dusting) in those spaces. Then he gets to keep his office and workshop in any condition he wants. If this ever stopped working it might be the end of us, because I can't think or function well in messy cluttered rooms. I made that clear in the beginning of our relationship. So he compromises by making the effort to pick up after himself and I compromise by taking on all of the cleaning beyond that. It may not be a perfect system but it's worked for us for 15-ish years. The handwashing thing would be a dealbreaker for me though. Along with any other lack of good, basic, dental/personal hygene habits.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 7:27 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 7:27 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, I would add: It will help a lot if you can figure out how to not have resentment over the fact that he's messy. I think when people live with someone like this you can sometimes start to feel like they're being messy at you. He isn't, though; he just doesn't really care about it on an innate level, and maybe through a lot of work you can make him care about it more than he does now, but in the end he might still leave papers lying around on the floor sometimes. Just pick them up and throw them away.
posted by something something at 7:29 AM on May 4, 2018
posted by something something at 7:29 AM on May 4, 2018
That is passive agression at its highest.
Passive Aggression would be if the OP had never spoken to his husband about cleaning and just did it all and sighed every time. Husband knows that OP wants him to clean more, so the Passive part is not there.
Paying another person to clean is great and it may open his eyes about how much can be done in such a small time and how nice it is when things are actually clean. It can also show people how much they were taking the cleaning partner for granted. Containing his clutter will also help keep you sane and allow the cleaner to be more efficient. He was on board with the previous decluttering, so it sounds like there is hope.
posted by soelo at 7:31 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Passive Aggression would be if the OP had never spoken to his husband about cleaning and just did it all and sighed every time. Husband knows that OP wants him to clean more, so the Passive part is not there.
Paying another person to clean is great and it may open his eyes about how much can be done in such a small time and how nice it is when things are actually clean. It can also show people how much they were taking the cleaning partner for granted. Containing his clutter will also help keep you sane and allow the cleaner to be more efficient. He was on board with the previous decluttering, so it sounds like there is hope.
posted by soelo at 7:31 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
My husband and I have kind of four agreements about cleaning:
1. He has an office space that is as cluttered as he likes and I too pretend it is not part of the house.
2. We tidy the rest of the house once a week. We do it in three phases: 1. Garbage fling; one of us walks through each room and tosses all obvious garbage, plus empties the cans. 2. We each take X rooms (the kids do too) and spend 20-30 min tidying those spaces, blasting tunes. 3. Anything that doesn’t have a home at that point goes in a basket and frankly I deal with that.
3. We “swish and swipe” the bathroom every night and dishes/counters are done every night.
4. From there it can get dicey. Cleaners would be a great solution here.
I think asking him for 15 minutes in the kitchen each day, to wipe down the sink and toilet, and 30 min once a weekend is not a whole lot even if you once bonded over not making these kinds of bourgois demands. It’s an investment in your relationship.
For the hand washing I really don’t know.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:39 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
1. He has an office space that is as cluttered as he likes and I too pretend it is not part of the house.
2. We tidy the rest of the house once a week. We do it in three phases: 1. Garbage fling; one of us walks through each room and tosses all obvious garbage, plus empties the cans. 2. We each take X rooms (the kids do too) and spend 20-30 min tidying those spaces, blasting tunes. 3. Anything that doesn’t have a home at that point goes in a basket and frankly I deal with that.
3. We “swish and swipe” the bathroom every night and dishes/counters are done every night.
4. From there it can get dicey. Cleaners would be a great solution here.
I think asking him for 15 minutes in the kitchen each day, to wipe down the sink and toilet, and 30 min once a weekend is not a whole lot even if you once bonded over not making these kinds of bourgois demands. It’s an investment in your relationship.
For the hand washing I really don’t know.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:39 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was going to say something along the lines of cooker girl. I don't think the approach is to make him understand the importance of cleanliness full stop, but the importance of cleanliness to you. That's the goal here. You're not asking him to become Martha Stewart, but you need to have your own shared standards for shared areas, because you love each other and understand that it's important to your mental wellbeing and health of the relationship.
It might be useful to have simple rules and just get into a habit: Nothing on the floor that doesn't belong on the floor. Garbage goes in the garbage bin. Spend 5 mins in one room together to just sort the floor and garbage situation. Set a timer so everyone knows when it's over (for now).
Hygiene is a non-negotiable. Wash. The. Hands. Of course you're being condescending. He's being immature and gross af.
posted by like_neon at 7:40 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
It might be useful to have simple rules and just get into a habit: Nothing on the floor that doesn't belong on the floor. Garbage goes in the garbage bin. Spend 5 mins in one room together to just sort the floor and garbage situation. Set a timer so everyone knows when it's over (for now).
Hygiene is a non-negotiable. Wash. The. Hands. Of course you're being condescending. He's being immature and gross af.
posted by like_neon at 7:40 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh and keep doing 1) I pretty much already tell him, "I have no idea what you do with your things, honey," when he asks for my help in finding things he's misplaced*.
This is how most adults learn to adult.
*Unless it's something important and you actually know where it is.
posted by like_neon at 7:44 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is how most adults learn to adult.
*Unless it's something important and you actually know where it is.
posted by like_neon at 7:44 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
For the handwashing thing, he has to want to form the habit first. I don't think citing health guidelines is going to do that. You could frame it as a thing he can do to make you happy, but maybe what would be more enduring is getting him to see it as a form of self respect. Is he so terrible that he deserves poopy hands? That the food he cooks should be contaminated? No, you love him and married him etc, he deserves clean hands and food he can safely share.
Then he'll have to become okay with failure, since he will often forget as he is consciously trying to form the habit. As a very messy perfectionist this is a big issue for me - when I don't manage a thing I say I will, my first reaction is "fuck it all entirely because I wasn't perfect the first time". So like, he's gonna do a lot of walking out of the bathroom, noticing he didn't wash his hands, and feeling shameful. Which is not a good system of positive reinforcement, you know? I'm trying to think of ways this can be mitigated. I feel like having a lot of hand wipes and sanitizers just dotted around the house might help, as he can go "oops, forgot" and grab a wipe wherever he is. Maybe also there's some kind of sensory issue going on that hasn't been consciously noticed, like he hates cold water or the feeling of a particular soap or whatever, stuff that can be tweaked so his hand washing experiences become more frictionless.
Honestly I would straight up regularly ask him if he's washed his hands, like, all the time, as well as telling him to do so, like if he's about to go cook dinner say "please decant that wine for us and also wash your hands", if he's just come from the bathroom say "welcome back, washed your hands?" Keep your tone really simple, like you're commenting on the weather or asking him to pass you the salt. The goal is for hand washing to become as rote as remembering to bring your phone with you when going out - sometimes you forget but it's usually automatic and very simple.
Focus on one thing at a time. I think washing his hands is more important that forming tidiness habits, and also it's a much more concrete, singular, unchanging thing that he can choose to focus on and feel pride when he accomplishes it.
posted by Mizu at 8:06 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Then he'll have to become okay with failure, since he will often forget as he is consciously trying to form the habit. As a very messy perfectionist this is a big issue for me - when I don't manage a thing I say I will, my first reaction is "fuck it all entirely because I wasn't perfect the first time". So like, he's gonna do a lot of walking out of the bathroom, noticing he didn't wash his hands, and feeling shameful. Which is not a good system of positive reinforcement, you know? I'm trying to think of ways this can be mitigated. I feel like having a lot of hand wipes and sanitizers just dotted around the house might help, as he can go "oops, forgot" and grab a wipe wherever he is. Maybe also there's some kind of sensory issue going on that hasn't been consciously noticed, like he hates cold water or the feeling of a particular soap or whatever, stuff that can be tweaked so his hand washing experiences become more frictionless.
Honestly I would straight up regularly ask him if he's washed his hands, like, all the time, as well as telling him to do so, like if he's about to go cook dinner say "please decant that wine for us and also wash your hands", if he's just come from the bathroom say "welcome back, washed your hands?" Keep your tone really simple, like you're commenting on the weather or asking him to pass you the salt. The goal is for hand washing to become as rote as remembering to bring your phone with you when going out - sometimes you forget but it's usually automatic and very simple.
Focus on one thing at a time. I think washing his hands is more important that forming tidiness habits, and also it's a much more concrete, singular, unchanging thing that he can choose to focus on and feel pride when he accomplishes it.
posted by Mizu at 8:06 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
He said the CDC website was condescending? THIS is condescending. And there are many others, because most people learn about handwashing as toddlers. Given the ridiculousness of the handwashing thing, I think I'd be tempted to send over resources like that. ("Sorry if that website was condescending. This resource might be better.") Depends on how well your partner responds to that kind of humor-with-a-point.
posted by salvia at 8:43 AM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by salvia at 8:43 AM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am a somewhat obsessive hand washer and my husband seems to have not learned about handwashing as a toddler. We’ve gotten better because I nagged him every time he did something that requires handwashing (bathroom, after dog walking, getting home from work, etc.) We also had a baby and that helped make it a little more routine for him. He still doesn’t do it correctly and won’t listen to me when I try to explain how to effectively wash his hands but it’s better than nothing. I know it sucks to nag and fight about it but even if he just does it to get you to shut up, it’s still better than nothing because it’s fucking disgusting. If he won’t wash his hands, don’t let him touch you and don’t eat food he’s made. Feel free to tell him, “Don’t touch me, you didn’t wash your hands.” That’s what’s worked for me.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 8:57 AM on May 4, 2018
posted by tatiana wishbone at 8:57 AM on May 4, 2018
Oh yeah, nthing the handwashing as the main issue. That's narsty, man. Even a quick rinse would be better than nothing.
For the other stuff, I mean, I hate to say it, but if "hey, no way, I'm messy too!" was a thing y'all bonded over, that seems pretty entrenched, behavior and preference-wise. I definitely agree that this should probably be framed as a "it makes me feel X when you Y" talk rather than a "general merits of cleanliness" talk. He doesn't care about cleanliness, clearly, but hopefully he cares about you enough to at least try to curtail his tendency to actively slob up the place.
Maybe you could experiment with like a 1-minute rule, where if some task would take less than one minute to complete (i.e. throwing trash into the garbage can, putting shoes next to the door rather than in the middle of the floor, etc.), just do it? But if he thought the CDC website was condescending, I doubt this would go over well unless he's already come around to the idea of trying to work on being slightly less messy around the house.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:04 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
For the other stuff, I mean, I hate to say it, but if "hey, no way, I'm messy too!" was a thing y'all bonded over, that seems pretty entrenched, behavior and preference-wise. I definitely agree that this should probably be framed as a "it makes me feel X when you Y" talk rather than a "general merits of cleanliness" talk. He doesn't care about cleanliness, clearly, but hopefully he cares about you enough to at least try to curtail his tendency to actively slob up the place.
Maybe you could experiment with like a 1-minute rule, where if some task would take less than one minute to complete (i.e. throwing trash into the garbage can, putting shoes next to the door rather than in the middle of the floor, etc.), just do it? But if he thought the CDC website was condescending, I doubt this would go over well unless he's already come around to the idea of trying to work on being slightly less messy around the house.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:04 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Some communication tools might help. XYZ Statements build empathy. And the speaker listener technique can help you have a safe and productive conversation about the issue.
Thing is, this isn't about cleaning or clutter. Not really. Building empathy between the two of you and discussing the underlying feelings and issues beneath these behaviors and events can help you be more mindful of the other in these situations.
posted by cross_impact at 9:22 AM on May 4, 2018
Thing is, this isn't about cleaning or clutter. Not really. Building empathy between the two of you and discussing the underlying feelings and issues beneath these behaviors and events can help you be more mindful of the other in these situations.
posted by cross_impact at 9:22 AM on May 4, 2018
First, I'd work on accepting that if he's over the age of 25, he is not going to intrinsically want to do these things. He is only going to do them - if at all - because you want him to, or because the consequences outweigh his laziness.
+1 that the handwashing needs to be addressed first and firmly. React as if he literally smeared feces on you. This is a serious health issue; even if neither of you have gotten sick so far, what if you have guests with compromised immune systems? This is the one thing worth nagging about.
Regarding the general messiness: what is his attitude towards money? Whose idea was it to hire the cleaners last time? Is there something he would rather use that money for? Have him pick something he really wants that costs roughly the same amount. Put that money in a separate account. If he can keep the house clean to a standard you agree on, in six months he can buy that thing. Otherwise you spend the money on cleaners. He will have to fully buy into this approach or it will lead to resentment. You risk resentment whichever route you take, but this may lead to less nagging since he'll have an external motivation that doesn't involve you. You're also freed from picking up his stuff, since the reward benefits him, not you.
posted by AFABulous at 10:15 AM on May 4, 2018
+1 that the handwashing needs to be addressed first and firmly. React as if he literally smeared feces on you. This is a serious health issue; even if neither of you have gotten sick so far, what if you have guests with compromised immune systems? This is the one thing worth nagging about.
Regarding the general messiness: what is his attitude towards money? Whose idea was it to hire the cleaners last time? Is there something he would rather use that money for? Have him pick something he really wants that costs roughly the same amount. Put that money in a separate account. If he can keep the house clean to a standard you agree on, in six months he can buy that thing. Otherwise you spend the money on cleaners. He will have to fully buy into this approach or it will lead to resentment. You risk resentment whichever route you take, but this may lead to less nagging since he'll have an external motivation that doesn't involve you. You're also freed from picking up his stuff, since the reward benefits him, not you.
posted by AFABulous at 10:15 AM on May 4, 2018
Married for three years to a great guy. One of the things that bonded us is that we're both HORRIBLE with picking up and keeping things clean.
Your husband is unlikely to change and will probably ask you why it has suddenly become an issue.
One way to solve this is to acknowledge that cleanliness is more important to you so henceforth you’ll be the one in charge of keeping the home tidy.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:32 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Your husband is unlikely to change and will probably ask you why it has suddenly become an issue.
One way to solve this is to acknowledge that cleanliness is more important to you so henceforth you’ll be the one in charge of keeping the home tidy.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:32 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
In some how-to-be-clean guide, there was a section about how to deal with your family members NOT being clean. The book or website basically suggested you focus on the cleaning and avoid letting this derail your efforts to keep things cleaner. From this, I take it that this is something that has derailed a fair number of people. The resource pointed out that things have been a certain way for years so you can't expect them to change overnight just because you're ready to change yourself, but that after more time, your positive example may begin to rub off on them. So maybe you can look at this as extra "practice" for you in developing your cleaner habits.
And a bigger "this is important to me but I need your help, would you be willing to help, and what would work for you as a way to develop these habits together?" conversation could also be valuable.
And I'd also consider hiring a cleaner regularly for at least awhile to help you stay on track. Having someone come even once a month provides a regular reminder about the need to pick up and be ready for that cleaning, which can help keep you from falling off the wagon, so to speak.
posted by salvia at 12:47 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
And a bigger "this is important to me but I need your help, would you be willing to help, and what would work for you as a way to develop these habits together?" conversation could also be valuable.
And I'd also consider hiring a cleaner regularly for at least awhile to help you stay on track. Having someone come even once a month provides a regular reminder about the need to pick up and be ready for that cleaning, which can help keep you from falling off the wagon, so to speak.
posted by salvia at 12:47 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
You won't be able to fix this and if you keep asking him to, you run the risk of him losing his attraction to you.
"don't touch me until you've washed your hands" is a completely acceptable response.
Until they start to see you as a germophobic buzzkill. If he's immature enough to not understand that there are circumstances where his hygiene may affect you physically, he's immature enough to think you're a bad person for having expectations of him.
posted by blerghamot at 5:40 PM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
"don't touch me until you've washed your hands" is a completely acceptable response.
Until they start to see you as a germophobic buzzkill. If he's immature enough to not understand that there are circumstances where his hygiene may affect you physically, he's immature enough to think you're a bad person for having expectations of him.
posted by blerghamot at 5:40 PM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't think you can or should try to manipulate or persuade him to think these things are important if they're not to him.
Most guys I know don't usually wash their hands after using the washroom because the only thing they're touching with their hands is their clothing and their own bodies. If you think him touching his own penis makes his hands "dirty", I'd assume you also make him wash up before sex? Do you wash not only your hands but your thighs and butt after sitting on a toilet? Not trying to be offensive at all here, but consider what his rationality may be about this.
The suggestions of nagging him or requiring hand washing before dinner are really infantalizing and condescending imho.
As for his own belongings, I'm wondering if you had a chance to observe or notice his habits before you moved in together? It seems kind of unfair to change your expectations after the fact if you didn't make it clear that it was an issue for you before he chose to cohabiatate.
If I can offer any true advice, it would be to choose your battles wisely, and not nitpick or nag over the smaller things. The cumulative effect of all of the small things being "important" issues to raise, can and will easily kill an otherwise good relationship pretty quickly. It's also likely to have him turn a deaf ear to big important issues when they come up.
posted by OnefortheLast at 5:48 PM on May 4, 2018
Most guys I know don't usually wash their hands after using the washroom because the only thing they're touching with their hands is their clothing and their own bodies. If you think him touching his own penis makes his hands "dirty", I'd assume you also make him wash up before sex? Do you wash not only your hands but your thighs and butt after sitting on a toilet? Not trying to be offensive at all here, but consider what his rationality may be about this.
The suggestions of nagging him or requiring hand washing before dinner are really infantalizing and condescending imho.
As for his own belongings, I'm wondering if you had a chance to observe or notice his habits before you moved in together? It seems kind of unfair to change your expectations after the fact if you didn't make it clear that it was an issue for you before he chose to cohabiatate.
If I can offer any true advice, it would be to choose your battles wisely, and not nitpick or nag over the smaller things. The cumulative effect of all of the small things being "important" issues to raise, can and will easily kill an otherwise good relationship pretty quickly. It's also likely to have him turn a deaf ear to big important issues when they come up.
posted by OnefortheLast at 5:48 PM on May 4, 2018
One small thing you can do to help is collaborate to buy really nice hand soap that he actually likes the smell and format of (ie, bar, foam, liquid, etc). And hand towels that he likes. Remove all speed bumps to hand-washing.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 5:53 PM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 5:53 PM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I had a roommate like this. After several excruciating house meetings, we all agreed to install a super large cardboard box named Alison in the living room. A+ wizard move. Anytime Alison's crap butted into the common space, we tossed it in the box. No more notes, reminders, annoyed sighs, resigned cleaning, resentment. The age of emotional labor and passive-aggressive maneuvering was over! As for Alison, it was the first time she could find her keys, bras and wallet in months. She even started cleaning more when she saw the visual stack of how bad it was. We all loved it and stayed good friends. Make hubby a closet for his nastiness and let him stew there. Toss it and forget it!
posted by fritillary at 9:16 PM on May 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by fritillary at 9:16 PM on May 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
Late last year and early this year, we spent a lot of time and several thousand dollars decluttering and finding a home for everything... Hubby, however, has gone right back to his cluttering ways. Trash on the floor, food takeout bags on the table for days or weeks at a time, constant wandering around to find things he's misplaced. Things came to a head this morning when I found a flyer on the floor of our front closet, when literally all he had to do was turn 180 degrees, stretch out his arm, and drop the flyer in the kitchen trash can...if he doesn't get it now, I have to assume he never will.
Wow, to me, minute-to-minute unconscious habits like where I put objects and my bathroom rituals are so ingrained that it would take a lot longer than a month or two to drastically and reliably change them. It sounds like you have completely different expectations than this. Maybe you are very good at changing your habits, and maybe he is too, but it's also possible he is more like me in this regard.
The typical way I improve at things that I don't care about but others do is via gradual positive self-reinforcement -- once I know that e.g. my partner prefers when I do something, then I think to myself when I do it, how happy I am that I remembered this way I could be kind to them. Perhaps that framing might work well for him?
posted by value of information at 3:43 AM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wow, to me, minute-to-minute unconscious habits like where I put objects and my bathroom rituals are so ingrained that it would take a lot longer than a month or two to drastically and reliably change them. It sounds like you have completely different expectations than this. Maybe you are very good at changing your habits, and maybe he is too, but it's also possible he is more like me in this regard.
The typical way I improve at things that I don't care about but others do is via gradual positive self-reinforcement -- once I know that e.g. my partner prefers when I do something, then I think to myself when I do it, how happy I am that I remembered this way I could be kind to them. Perhaps that framing might work well for him?
posted by value of information at 3:43 AM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Based on your description of your interactions, I think there are deeper issues here (e.g. contempt, lack of basic consideration/kindness, etc.) than differences over cleaning standards and I encourage you to seek marriage counseling before things get any worse.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:55 AM on May 5, 2018
posted by Jacqueline at 11:55 AM on May 5, 2018
It is totally possible that this is simple lack of caring, but it seems equally possible that your spouse might benefit from looking at ADD or other executive function disorder -- either getting a diagnosis, or reading about what types of things have helped people who do have a diagnosis, whether or not he gets one. (I tend to think that for adults who are not in crisis, getting a diagnosis doesn't matter as much as figuring out what strategies work for you.)
posted by librarina at 1:04 AM on May 6, 2018
posted by librarina at 1:04 AM on May 6, 2018
Is this otherwise wonderful man unaware that societies without easy means of hand washing generally assign separate tasks to the left and right hands? That the true torture of a law code where a hand is cut off is forcing the person to use one hand for everything?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2018
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2018
Coming a little late to the conversation--I read it earlier and kinda can't get it out of my mind, so I'll offer this:
Forget for a minute the specifics of the housekeeping situation and think about the trajectory of this issue, as you describe it. It's really about the dynamics of your relationship and how you solve problems. You guys haven't been married that long and it's very typical for young married folks to have to work out problem-solving.
Here was a thing that the both of you really related about. Then somehow you changed--that's OK, both of you are going to change a lot over your lifetimes. What really matters is whether you can navigate that as a team.
From what you say, he is really not on board/self-motivated to change in the same way. Yet you spent lots and lots of time and money last year to address your concern. How did that project last year come to be? Who initiated it? How did he agree to lots of time and several thousand dollars if he didn't care about tit? Did he agree, or did you decide by fiat?
Did he say he agreed--but didn't really agree and went along with it anyway, and is now resentful and taking it out on you passively (he doesn't need to actually *do* anything and, voila, you get so mad and get bent out of shape).
I say: when you have made perfectly clear to your partner just how important an issue is to you--as I imagine that you have done, both with your big project last year and your ongoing exasperation--and the situation still doesn't shift....it's not that they don't understand the issue. It's not that they don't understand how important the issue is to you. If they're not even remotely acting in a collaborative way--that's a response in and of itself. Really, it's a statement of how much he cares about how you think and feel and a measure of how much he's willing to partner with you to solve problems. Right now that answer is: he's not. That's a big red flag. In a healthy partnership he would be taking some of that initiative himself, because he knows that it's important to you. Think on that.
What's going on with him? Is he resentful? Is he feeling controlled? Does not care about living in filth because deep down he has a low self-regard, and he feels like this ongoing conflict about a dirty house rubs his nose in that feeling? Does he get a charge out of watching you work yourself up? Big payoff for him, you know--he can continue to not do the work, he knows you'll be his cleaning service because it bugs you, *and* he gets the power trip of knowing he can piss you off without even saying or doing anything.
I'd get to counseling over this one, frankly--not because of the garbage, but because of the absence of teamwork. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 5:22 AM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Forget for a minute the specifics of the housekeeping situation and think about the trajectory of this issue, as you describe it. It's really about the dynamics of your relationship and how you solve problems. You guys haven't been married that long and it's very typical for young married folks to have to work out problem-solving.
Here was a thing that the both of you really related about. Then somehow you changed--that's OK, both of you are going to change a lot over your lifetimes. What really matters is whether you can navigate that as a team.
From what you say, he is really not on board/self-motivated to change in the same way. Yet you spent lots and lots of time and money last year to address your concern. How did that project last year come to be? Who initiated it? How did he agree to lots of time and several thousand dollars if he didn't care about tit? Did he agree, or did you decide by fiat?
Did he say he agreed--but didn't really agree and went along with it anyway, and is now resentful and taking it out on you passively (he doesn't need to actually *do* anything and, voila, you get so mad and get bent out of shape).
I say: when you have made perfectly clear to your partner just how important an issue is to you--as I imagine that you have done, both with your big project last year and your ongoing exasperation--and the situation still doesn't shift....it's not that they don't understand the issue. It's not that they don't understand how important the issue is to you. If they're not even remotely acting in a collaborative way--that's a response in and of itself. Really, it's a statement of how much he cares about how you think and feel and a measure of how much he's willing to partner with you to solve problems. Right now that answer is: he's not. That's a big red flag. In a healthy partnership he would be taking some of that initiative himself, because he knows that it's important to you. Think on that.
What's going on with him? Is he resentful? Is he feeling controlled? Does not care about living in filth because deep down he has a low self-regard, and he feels like this ongoing conflict about a dirty house rubs his nose in that feeling? Does he get a charge out of watching you work yourself up? Big payoff for him, you know--he can continue to not do the work, he knows you'll be his cleaning service because it bugs you, *and* he gets the power trip of knowing he can piss you off without even saying or doing anything.
I'd get to counseling over this one, frankly--not because of the garbage, but because of the absence of teamwork. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 5:22 AM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
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