Can my cat eat it? (Permethrin-coated mouse)
April 7, 2018 1:46 PM Subscribe
To help control Lyme disease-carrying ticks, I want to spread home-made tick tubes around my yard. From all accounts, this is effective in killing ticks. The tubes contain permethrin- soaked cotton balls that the mice find and take for nest-making. Mice are ok, ticks feeding on them are killed. But I'm concerned that my cat will catch and eat one of these mice. Permethrin is deadly for cats, though dry permethrin is supposed to be safe, and the stuff should be dry.
Helpful guesses are not useful. Authoritative answers only, please.
Call animal poison control and ask, honestly. They can give you a very specific answer you can trust.
posted by lydhre at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
I asked a similar question a few years back, and I've been on the lookout for more information on this since then, but I still haven't found a definitive answer. I asked my vet again a couple months ago, but he had nothing to add beyond "that's a good question." As far as I can tell, an authoritative answer to this question doesn't yet exist, or at least isn't easily found.
But, I just saw an article from Consumer Reports about tick bait boxes that use a different insecticide, fipronil:
The insecticide used in bait boxes, fipronil, is the same chemical used in tick-control products sold for cats and dogs (such as Frontline Top Spot). But the bait boxes use a much lower dose, so your household pets should be safe, even if they happen to attack (or eat) a critter that came into contact with the box.
I don't know if there's a DIY approach using this.
If you figure something out, please share!
posted by Corvid at 3:05 PM on April 7, 2018
But, I just saw an article from Consumer Reports about tick bait boxes that use a different insecticide, fipronil:
The insecticide used in bait boxes, fipronil, is the same chemical used in tick-control products sold for cats and dogs (such as Frontline Top Spot). But the bait boxes use a much lower dose, so your household pets should be safe, even if they happen to attack (or eat) a critter that came into contact with the box.
I don't know if there's a DIY approach using this.
If you figure something out, please share!
posted by Corvid at 3:05 PM on April 7, 2018
I had a similar (though easier) challenge when our dog ate a chocolate bar in the middle of the night. Most websites were very vague "a little chocolate is probably fine, unless it's not" and I wanted to know whether a costly emergency vet trip was necessary. I was able to find precise toxicology information in a Merck veterinary manual, which allowed me to calculate the quantity of the harmful chemical (based on the type of chocolate and its weight) and the concentration in the dog (mg/kg). Turned out the concentration was well below the threshold of requiring immediate care, which was a relief.
It's a lot harder to find this same information for Permethrin in cats. I'll let you assess the authority of this organization, but here's an article published by the Veterinary Support Personnel Network: Small Animal Toxicoses - Insecticides. The article mentions that "low concentration products approved for cats contain 0.05-0.1% of permethrin..."
That still doesn't answer how much is a safe dose, but if you could find one of these approved cat tick treatments and figure out the dosage information, you could then calculate a reasonably safe amount of permethrin for cats.
Finally, you could figure out how much permethrin is in the cotton balls that you're providing to the mice.
Using this method, you could then determine how many cotton balls would be equivalent to an approved dose of tick treatment.
However, you'll then have an additional unknown, which is whether it's more or less toxic for a cat to ingest permethrin compared to having it applied topically.
posted by reeddavid at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's a lot harder to find this same information for Permethrin in cats. I'll let you assess the authority of this organization, but here's an article published by the Veterinary Support Personnel Network: Small Animal Toxicoses - Insecticides. The article mentions that "low concentration products approved for cats contain 0.05-0.1% of permethrin..."
That still doesn't answer how much is a safe dose, but if you could find one of these approved cat tick treatments and figure out the dosage information, you could then calculate a reasonably safe amount of permethrin for cats.
Finally, you could figure out how much permethrin is in the cotton balls that you're providing to the mice.
Using this method, you could then determine how many cotton balls would be equivalent to an approved dose of tick treatment.
However, you'll then have an additional unknown, which is whether it's more or less toxic for a cat to ingest permethrin compared to having it applied topically.
posted by reeddavid at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I asked my friend who works in pest control and she tossed out some terms that could help your Googling:
* SDS (safety data sheet) or MSDS (material safety data sheet)
* LD50, will be somewhere in the SDS
There won't be anything about cats there, only rats and maybe rabbits, but you could try to extrapolate using reeddavid's method.
She also suggested calling the manufacturer and asking them, they're apparently open to questions.
posted by elerina at 10:13 PM on April 7, 2018
* SDS (safety data sheet) or MSDS (material safety data sheet)
* LD50, will be somewhere in the SDS
There won't be anything about cats there, only rats and maybe rabbits, but you could try to extrapolate using reeddavid's method.
She also suggested calling the manufacturer and asking them, they're apparently open to questions.
posted by elerina at 10:13 PM on April 7, 2018
Best answer: Vet, not your vet.
Tick tubes generally have 7.4% permethrin on the cotton.
While I definitely wouldn't want cats to incorporate this level of permethrin in their own beds and be constantly exposed, casual, intermittent exposure through contact with mice (or ingestion of mice) or the cotton batting isn't likely to be any problem.
If you are concerned about your pet eating a toxin, calling poison control is a great first step. That is what most vets will do, and because poison control hotlines charge everyone, we will often ask you to call or we will call and pass that cost on to you.
It's a lot harder to find this same information for Permethrin in cats. I'll let you assess the authority of this organization
Strictly speaking, I don't advise any pet owners calculate on their own if something their pet ate at home contains a toxic dose. Looking stuff up on the internet is no substitute for expertise in toxicology.
There won't be anything about cats there, only rats and maybe rabbits, but you could try to extrapolate using reeddavid's method.
Extrapolating the toxicity in cats from rats and rabbits is dangerous, and I would not recommend it. Consult a trained professional.
posted by Seppaku at 9:36 AM on April 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Tick tubes generally have 7.4% permethrin on the cotton.
While I definitely wouldn't want cats to incorporate this level of permethrin in their own beds and be constantly exposed, casual, intermittent exposure through contact with mice (or ingestion of mice) or the cotton batting isn't likely to be any problem.
If you are concerned about your pet eating a toxin, calling poison control is a great first step. That is what most vets will do, and because poison control hotlines charge everyone, we will often ask you to call or we will call and pass that cost on to you.
It's a lot harder to find this same information for Permethrin in cats. I'll let you assess the authority of this organization
Strictly speaking, I don't advise any pet owners calculate on their own if something their pet ate at home contains a toxic dose. Looking stuff up on the internet is no substitute for expertise in toxicology.
There won't be anything about cats there, only rats and maybe rabbits, but you could try to extrapolate using reeddavid's method.
Extrapolating the toxicity in cats from rats and rabbits is dangerous, and I would not recommend it. Consult a trained professional.
posted by Seppaku at 9:36 AM on April 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. In order to make AskMetafilter most useful to future questioners, I would like to be able to say that my question was resolved. Seppaku's answer gave me enough confidence to go ahead and set out tick tubes with my fingers crossed, but I still feel that, as Corvid said, "an authoritative answer to this question doesn't yet exist".
posted by Hobgoblin at 3:32 PM on May 8, 2018
posted by Hobgoblin at 3:32 PM on May 8, 2018
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posted by halation at 2:00 PM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]