Christmas in Spring
April 1, 2018 8:42 AM Subscribe
What kind of influence should my husband’s conservative religious family have in our household and traditions?
I am agnostic and my husband (yay!) is now an atheist. He was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness within his conservative family and followed the doctrine until his early twenties. He was never baptized therefore his subsequent break of faith didn’t mar ties to his family too much and we both enjoy a great connection with his of-faith parents, siblings and extended family. Although he is now a staunch non believer he has what I can only describe as “residual ideas” about not celebrating or acknowledging birthdays and Christmas. I don’t think he cares about Christmas or birthdays either way but wants to keep the peace with his family.
We went back and forth over the holiday debate for a couple years and it always bugged me that I wasn’t able to have a Christmas tree or do the sappy Christmas festivities that I LOVE. I am not from such a close knit family myself and the holidays are pretty much some of the happiest memories I have. Also, no one ever gave a damn about my birthdays coming up so I always looked forward to treating my kids to things like that. I’d usually concede on the Christmas and birthday front with my husband because our son was too young to appreciate any of the hoopla so I didn’t press it. I’d compromise by keeping Christmas out of the house; lots of driving around to see the neighbor’s Christmas lights from the car. Now that the kid is getting closer to holiday appreciation age it’s rather important to me that I am able to create traditions in my home.
So! After persistent nagging, my partner finally agreed to have a Christmas tree and celebrations, which completely rocked my world. Though it came with a caveat: if any of his family happens to visit during the holiday season then no Christmas. Period. Even posting photos of Christmas related things are “prohibited” because his family might see them. I think this is unfair. I completely understand his desire to not offend his family and I certainly don’t want to either. However, I can’t help but feel that if they are SO offended by holidays and celebrations then...they simply don’t have to come? I know that his family take these matter very seriously, for example, they’ve ask dates to be rearranged to make them feel more comfortable dining with family ensuring it doesn’t fall on Christmas Day. I also know they wouldn’t dream of celebrating Christmas or birthdays even in a passive way, and I respect that, but I do not share their faith or views. I would never imagine coming to their homes and insist that they accommodate my preferences because I’m uncomfortable and it feels equally bizarre for them to expect the same.
There isn’t too much chance that any of this could happen without notice because his entire family resides internationally, but knowing that I’m expected to be tolerant and censored doesn’t sit well with me.
This isn’t a matter of love, because without a doubt we’re very close to his family but navigating through difference of religions can be difficult. If I am in fact being too hard up, I’m willing to compromise. I’d like to know what those options are and how to get an authentic experience out of it myself.
I am agnostic and my husband (yay!) is now an atheist. He was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness within his conservative family and followed the doctrine until his early twenties. He was never baptized therefore his subsequent break of faith didn’t mar ties to his family too much and we both enjoy a great connection with his of-faith parents, siblings and extended family. Although he is now a staunch non believer he has what I can only describe as “residual ideas” about not celebrating or acknowledging birthdays and Christmas. I don’t think he cares about Christmas or birthdays either way but wants to keep the peace with his family.
We went back and forth over the holiday debate for a couple years and it always bugged me that I wasn’t able to have a Christmas tree or do the sappy Christmas festivities that I LOVE. I am not from such a close knit family myself and the holidays are pretty much some of the happiest memories I have. Also, no one ever gave a damn about my birthdays coming up so I always looked forward to treating my kids to things like that. I’d usually concede on the Christmas and birthday front with my husband because our son was too young to appreciate any of the hoopla so I didn’t press it. I’d compromise by keeping Christmas out of the house; lots of driving around to see the neighbor’s Christmas lights from the car. Now that the kid is getting closer to holiday appreciation age it’s rather important to me that I am able to create traditions in my home.
So! After persistent nagging, my partner finally agreed to have a Christmas tree and celebrations, which completely rocked my world. Though it came with a caveat: if any of his family happens to visit during the holiday season then no Christmas. Period. Even posting photos of Christmas related things are “prohibited” because his family might see them. I think this is unfair. I completely understand his desire to not offend his family and I certainly don’t want to either. However, I can’t help but feel that if they are SO offended by holidays and celebrations then...they simply don’t have to come? I know that his family take these matter very seriously, for example, they’ve ask dates to be rearranged to make them feel more comfortable dining with family ensuring it doesn’t fall on Christmas Day. I also know they wouldn’t dream of celebrating Christmas or birthdays even in a passive way, and I respect that, but I do not share their faith or views. I would never imagine coming to their homes and insist that they accommodate my preferences because I’m uncomfortable and it feels equally bizarre for them to expect the same.
There isn’t too much chance that any of this could happen without notice because his entire family resides internationally, but knowing that I’m expected to be tolerant and censored doesn’t sit well with me.
This isn’t a matter of love, because without a doubt we’re very close to his family but navigating through difference of religions can be difficult. If I am in fact being too hard up, I’m willing to compromise. I’d like to know what those options are and how to get an authentic experience out of it myself.
I am not convinced that it's healthy to keep secrets from people you're close to, and it sounds like you and your husband are close to his family. I'm really not convinced that it's healthy to teach your kid to keep secrets from people he's close to. Do you want to train him to hide things and keep secrets from you? If they can't come into the house if there are Christmas decorations, then you can make efforts to take down or cover the Christmas decorations when they're there, but I really don't think it's a good idea to try to keep your Christmas celebration a secret. And it's not a reasonable thing for your husband to ask of you.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:48 AM on April 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:48 AM on April 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
Could you maybe make the holiday something festive and with gifts, but under a different name? Like Solstice? Lots of greenery, do whatever you want.
posted by amtho at 8:52 AM on April 1, 2018
posted by amtho at 8:52 AM on April 1, 2018
I think you guys need to have a bigger conversation about religion and culture. Because, long term, it doesn't really work for you to nag him until he gives in about Christmas, nor does it work for him to say "We can do Christmas, but only if we pretend that we don't when it comes to my family." These aren't things to concede to one another, they're things to try and reach an understanding about, even if no one "wins".
It seems to me that your husband likely has some ambivalence about the idea of celebrating Christmas and birthdays. His actually religious belief doesn't really matter here, rather his background does. Maybe he feels it's spitting in his family's face. Maybe he feels uncomfortable with the idea, but feels silly that he's uncomfortable. Or something else entirely, who knows. You need to try to understand where he's coming from and he needs to understand that Christmas and birthdays are important to you in a way they seem not to be to him.
posted by hoyland at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2018 [22 favorites]
It seems to me that your husband likely has some ambivalence about the idea of celebrating Christmas and birthdays. His actually religious belief doesn't really matter here, rather his background does. Maybe he feels it's spitting in his family's face. Maybe he feels uncomfortable with the idea, but feels silly that he's uncomfortable. Or something else entirely, who knows. You need to try to understand where he's coming from and he needs to understand that Christmas and birthdays are important to you in a way they seem not to be to him.
posted by hoyland at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2018 [22 favorites]
They live overseas, you rarely see them, yet they are dictating how you and your husband live day to day.
You and your husband need counseling because this is emotionally unhealthy, it will turn into abuse as your children grow up and are unable to participate in all the holiday hoopla their peers at school and neighborhood friends participate in. AND BIRTHDAYS.
Counseling. Stat.
You can not raise children this way and expect happy healthy outcomes.
posted by jbenben at 9:00 AM on April 1, 2018 [40 favorites]
You and your husband need counseling because this is emotionally unhealthy, it will turn into abuse as your children grow up and are unable to participate in all the holiday hoopla their peers at school and neighborhood friends participate in. AND BIRTHDAYS.
Counseling. Stat.
You can not raise children this way and expect happy healthy outcomes.
posted by jbenben at 9:00 AM on April 1, 2018 [40 favorites]
Sorry I'm really clueless about religion; what are his specific concerns and objections? His family will be offended? Betrayed? Do they not know he's no longer in the church? How old is he? What's his long term plan as far as holidays and your offspring? I just have trouble understanding how to overcome the situation because I'm so confused, thank you!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:01 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:01 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ok sorry just read the question you linked to. He's 37??? And scared of his parents? This is not good. Counseling for sure.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:02 AM on April 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:02 AM on April 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Even posting photos of Christmas related things are “prohibited” because his family might see them. I think this is unfair.
it is unfair. He is basically asking you and your child to carry the burden of his inability to come to a mutual understanding with his parents. He has decided he is no longer of this faith; but that has consequences on his relationships, and he's trying to duck them and ask you to duck, too. This isn't fair to put the family through. Could he be using his parents as a screen for his own ambivalence? Maybe. Could he still be yearning for their approval even though he's left the faith? Maybe. But neither of those causes should require you to make all the compromises.
I agree that this is part of a bigger conversation that has not yet happened, and that a few sessions with a counselor should help you make progress.
posted by Miko at 9:02 AM on April 1, 2018 [27 favorites]
it is unfair. He is basically asking you and your child to carry the burden of his inability to come to a mutual understanding with his parents. He has decided he is no longer of this faith; but that has consequences on his relationships, and he's trying to duck them and ask you to duck, too. This isn't fair to put the family through. Could he be using his parents as a screen for his own ambivalence? Maybe. Could he still be yearning for their approval even though he's left the faith? Maybe. But neither of those causes should require you to make all the compromises.
I agree that this is part of a bigger conversation that has not yet happened, and that a few sessions with a counselor should help you make progress.
posted by Miko at 9:02 AM on April 1, 2018 [27 favorites]
What will happen if his family sees Christmas trappings? Worst case, and this is not unknown with JW's, the family cuts him off completely and forever, no contact. That may be what he's afraid of.
posted by smcameron at 9:06 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by smcameron at 9:06 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
"It seems to me that your husband likely has some ambivalence about the idea of celebrating Christmas and birthdays."
He seems scared of their rejection.
Also, this is about your children. No, you can't raise children this way. This situation is not that you like Christmas and Birthdays, but he's afraid of his family that lives halfway around the world so no Christmas or Birthdays for you guys. The situation is that you have child/ren together, young children that deserve all the joys of childhood, not a weird repressive home environment.
They only get one childhood. Yeah it sucks your husband will feel awful witnessing the joys of childhood he was denied. He'll have to face deep ugly truths about his family and their upbringing. He's a parent now and this is his self-work to do on behalf of his children. Full stop.
posted by jbenben at 9:07 AM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
He seems scared of their rejection.
Also, this is about your children. No, you can't raise children this way. This situation is not that you like Christmas and Birthdays, but he's afraid of his family that lives halfway around the world so no Christmas or Birthdays for you guys. The situation is that you have child/ren together, young children that deserve all the joys of childhood, not a weird repressive home environment.
They only get one childhood. Yeah it sucks your husband will feel awful witnessing the joys of childhood he was denied. He'll have to face deep ugly truths about his family and their upbringing. He's a parent now and this is his self-work to do on behalf of his children. Full stop.
posted by jbenben at 9:07 AM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Best answer: This seems insane to me. Why should their holiday preferences take precedence over yours in your own home? What if they were Jewish and you were Christian—would you be expected to hide the Christmas tree then? Make up any two religions you like, it all comes out sounding equally absurd. It really comes down to how you and your husband choose to run your home. To state the obvious, it’s perfectly reasonable to want to enjoy Christmas and birthdays with your kids (!!!). Your husband seems to recognize this but not be fully on board with the concept that his primary relationship now is with you, not his parents. That is going to get super old as the years roll by (ask me how I know). I would urge you to get this aspect of your relationship sorted early on.
posted by HotToddy at 9:18 AM on April 1, 2018 [35 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 9:18 AM on April 1, 2018 [35 favorites]
Best answer: he doesn't actually have to stand up & reject his parents' values/declare atheism in order to treat you as an equal, he can lie to them and still do it! what is to stop him telling them, yes, my spouse observes these holidays, so of course I respect her customs, although I don't participate? I mean, they weren't ever under the impression that you were a JW, were they? why would they but especially he ever expect that you would tailor your beliefs and traditions to match his?
expecting you to be subordinate is completely unacceptable and has nothing to do with the evolution of his own religious ideas; he doesn't have to share your customs, he just has to not suppress them. he doesn't have to solicit or receive birthday greetings and gifts if he doesn't want any, just offer them to you and his kid. he doesn't have to decorate a tree, just be a friendly bystander while you do it. he doesn't own the family.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:15 AM on April 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
expecting you to be subordinate is completely unacceptable and has nothing to do with the evolution of his own religious ideas; he doesn't have to share your customs, he just has to not suppress them. he doesn't have to solicit or receive birthday greetings and gifts if he doesn't want any, just offer them to you and his kid. he doesn't have to decorate a tree, just be a friendly bystander while you do it. he doesn't own the family.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:15 AM on April 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
I would never imagine coming to their homes and insist that they accommodate my preferences because I’m uncomfortable and it feels equally bizarre for them to expect the same. [...] knowing that I’m expected to be tolerant and censored doesn’t sit well with me.
I guess part of the question is, is his attitude coming from a place of censorship or from a place of hospitality? Because while no good guest should insist on their host accommodating them, at the same time a good (and certainly a loving) host will do their best to accommodate where possible and ethical - at least in the cultures I'm familiar with. Ideally there's a sort of mutual consideration and thoughtfulness.
Anyway, at first, reading your question, I thought "of course he should let her have a Christmas tree!"
Then I read up on why JWs don't celebrate Christmas or birthdays. I also thought about how I would feel about having a Christmas tree in my own home to make an SO happy (I'm not Christian). The thing is, for me the symbols of Christianity aren't just empty signifiers, or neutral secular signifiers of warmth and coziness and family; I have zero problem seeing them in other people's houses, but having them in my own home it would feel disturbing and wrong. Not because I'm religious (I'm not) but because the symbols of Christmas itself are deeply connected in my consciousness with the Christian religion, and while I know that many people use them in a completely secular way, I can't separate the signifiers from the religion in my mind - and I do think that's legitimate.
I don't know if that reflects your husband's feelings, but it's completely possible that the trappings of Christianity (or paganism) don't feel neutral or secular to him, or that he knows that's how it would feel to his family. So I think this is a situation where it makes a lot of sense for you both to talk really deeply about where you're coming from, what these celebrations, and their signifiers, mean to you, what your own families mean to you, what kind of family celebrations you want to give your child going forward, and, most importantly, what you can do that speaks to both your needs. He offered one compromise; maybe you can find better ones.
However cultish the religion he grew up with may be, the stamp it left on him is as valid or invalid as the stamp yours left on you; the associations he has with Christmas are as valid or invalid as yours. Put yourself in his shoes, and ask him to put himself in yours.
posted by trig at 10:25 AM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I guess part of the question is, is his attitude coming from a place of censorship or from a place of hospitality? Because while no good guest should insist on their host accommodating them, at the same time a good (and certainly a loving) host will do their best to accommodate where possible and ethical - at least in the cultures I'm familiar with. Ideally there's a sort of mutual consideration and thoughtfulness.
Anyway, at first, reading your question, I thought "of course he should let her have a Christmas tree!"
Then I read up on why JWs don't celebrate Christmas or birthdays. I also thought about how I would feel about having a Christmas tree in my own home to make an SO happy (I'm not Christian). The thing is, for me the symbols of Christianity aren't just empty signifiers, or neutral secular signifiers of warmth and coziness and family; I have zero problem seeing them in other people's houses, but having them in my own home it would feel disturbing and wrong. Not because I'm religious (I'm not) but because the symbols of Christmas itself are deeply connected in my consciousness with the Christian religion, and while I know that many people use them in a completely secular way, I can't separate the signifiers from the religion in my mind - and I do think that's legitimate.
I don't know if that reflects your husband's feelings, but it's completely possible that the trappings of Christianity (or paganism) don't feel neutral or secular to him, or that he knows that's how it would feel to his family. So I think this is a situation where it makes a lot of sense for you both to talk really deeply about where you're coming from, what these celebrations, and their signifiers, mean to you, what your own families mean to you, what kind of family celebrations you want to give your child going forward, and, most importantly, what you can do that speaks to both your needs. He offered one compromise; maybe you can find better ones.
However cultish the religion he grew up with may be, the stamp it left on him is as valid or invalid as the stamp yours left on you; the associations he has with Christmas are as valid or invalid as yours. Put yourself in his shoes, and ask him to put himself in yours.
posted by trig at 10:25 AM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
This does not seem to be your in-laws' issue. It seems to be your husband's issue.
Yeah this has nothing to do with your husband's family at this point except where he draws boundaries between what they want, what he wants and what TEAM US wants. I don't think it's sensible for his family to rank more highly on the "how we do things" ladder than you, his chosen family. But this is your issue with him. His whole "We can do Xmas unless my family visits and then we don't" guideline is problematically passive and removes his own agency from the thing. So you nagged him into having a tree and now you have one. But it seems like he's not totally on board with the whole thing. And so now you guys need to have a deeper discussion about what he actually cares about in a personal level because that seems to be more complicated than just his stated religious beliefs.
posted by jessamyn at 10:31 AM on April 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah this has nothing to do with your husband's family at this point except where he draws boundaries between what they want, what he wants and what TEAM US wants. I don't think it's sensible for his family to rank more highly on the "how we do things" ladder than you, his chosen family. But this is your issue with him. His whole "We can do Xmas unless my family visits and then we don't" guideline is problematically passive and removes his own agency from the thing. So you nagged him into having a tree and now you have one. But it seems like he's not totally on board with the whole thing. And so now you guys need to have a deeper discussion about what he actually cares about in a personal level because that seems to be more complicated than just his stated religious beliefs.
posted by jessamyn at 10:31 AM on April 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
1) IF this is in fact partly your husband's discomfort with observing holidays in his home then he needs to own that and not blame his parents for all of it, and the two of you have a lot more work to do.
2) You're absolutely right that it is unfair to equate being closeted in your beliefs with "respecting" someone else's beliefs. However:
If (1) truly isn't an issue, I mean, what does this come down to, in practical terms? You have to click a few extra buttons to hide Facebook posts of your cookie decorating from them? (You know you can do that, right?) You don't have them visit at Christmas.
Now I personally think the healthiest thing is for your husband to say to his folks, here's the deal: my wife celebrates holidays. That means you should not visit us at holidays, if decorations and other observances are unacceptable to you. You all know I'm not in the church anymore, this shouldn't be that surprising, yadda yadda.
But I am also a lifelong Midwesterner and the risk of losing contact with family would be DEVASTATING to me. And as such, I can also endorse just quietly changing your social media settings in December, and whoops you know we just happen to have [x plans] that week and you can't visit then, in-laws.
You have my infinite sympathies on this -- my own partner and I are not on the same page re: holidays and it is continually difficult.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:36 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
2) You're absolutely right that it is unfair to equate being closeted in your beliefs with "respecting" someone else's beliefs. However:
If (1) truly isn't an issue, I mean, what does this come down to, in practical terms? You have to click a few extra buttons to hide Facebook posts of your cookie decorating from them? (You know you can do that, right?) You don't have them visit at Christmas.
Now I personally think the healthiest thing is for your husband to say to his folks, here's the deal: my wife celebrates holidays. That means you should not visit us at holidays, if decorations and other observances are unacceptable to you. You all know I'm not in the church anymore, this shouldn't be that surprising, yadda yadda.
But I am also a lifelong Midwesterner and the risk of losing contact with family would be DEVASTATING to me. And as such, I can also endorse just quietly changing your social media settings in December, and whoops you know we just happen to have [x plans] that week and you can't visit then, in-laws.
You have my infinite sympathies on this -- my own partner and I are not on the same page re: holidays and it is continually difficult.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:36 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to imagine your kid in grade school having to hear all about their friends' birthday parties and Christmas gifts and having to say, I don't get to do any of that stuff because my grandparents on one side wouldn't like it. I can't imagine that not ending in tears.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Wanted to add some info:
I agree that this is more of coming to terms with my husband’s reservations about the celebrations rather than his parents objections. We’ve covered a few of his reasons before and they fall more in line with not wanting to spit in his family’s face, as someone mentioned earlier. Also, he is the only sibling in his nuclear family to break faith. His family is still able to be in contact with him because he never elected to be baptized. They’re all well aware that he is no longer invested with their principles but I see that he may not be so eager to test their boundaries. There is a chance that perhaps they could feel obligated to cut ties with him and our family completely and that would be devastating for him and I would feel partly responsible.
Neither of us know for a fact that that would be the outcome but I sense that it could be in the back of my husband’s mind. I guess I’m perhaps baffled at the severity of it all? I was not raised within the confines of any religion and Christmas was definitely a secular family-time tradition rather than Christian religious observance in my childhood.
posted by dea at 11:04 AM on April 1, 2018
I agree that this is more of coming to terms with my husband’s reservations about the celebrations rather than his parents objections. We’ve covered a few of his reasons before and they fall more in line with not wanting to spit in his family’s face, as someone mentioned earlier. Also, he is the only sibling in his nuclear family to break faith. His family is still able to be in contact with him because he never elected to be baptized. They’re all well aware that he is no longer invested with their principles but I see that he may not be so eager to test their boundaries. There is a chance that perhaps they could feel obligated to cut ties with him and our family completely and that would be devastating for him and I would feel partly responsible.
Neither of us know for a fact that that would be the outcome but I sense that it could be in the back of my husband’s mind. I guess I’m perhaps baffled at the severity of it all? I was not raised within the confines of any religion and Christmas was definitely a secular family-time tradition rather than Christian religious observance in my childhood.
posted by dea at 11:04 AM on April 1, 2018
Best answer: You would not be responsible for your husband's parents and extended family choosing their cultish religious beliefs over their family bond with your husband. If it came to that, it would be their choice.
My son is 6. What Showbiz_Liz said about your children watching their friends at school have birthdays and holidays. Seriously, think it through a few years. It's difficult enough navigating screen time, nerf guns, Five Nights at Freddy's or equivalent awful pop culture trash. Birthdays and holidays are not the place your husband wants to make his children feel alienated and deprived, pariahs among their peers.
I like the idea of your husband simply being a bystander while these celebrations take place. I agree he doesn't own the family. His family does not own your family.
Create a social media profile with a new email address away from your husband and his family. Create a vibrant community of parents and children away from your husband and his family's social media. Compartmentalize them. Make sure your children grow up with a rich community.
Go back to school and develop job skills. Don't be financially dependent on your husband forever. Having a job or career is about your sense of dignity, not money.
posted by jbenben at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2018 [21 favorites]
My son is 6. What Showbiz_Liz said about your children watching their friends at school have birthdays and holidays. Seriously, think it through a few years. It's difficult enough navigating screen time, nerf guns, Five Nights at Freddy's or equivalent awful pop culture trash. Birthdays and holidays are not the place your husband wants to make his children feel alienated and deprived, pariahs among their peers.
I like the idea of your husband simply being a bystander while these celebrations take place. I agree he doesn't own the family. His family does not own your family.
Create a social media profile with a new email address away from your husband and his family. Create a vibrant community of parents and children away from your husband and his family's social media. Compartmentalize them. Make sure your children grow up with a rich community.
Go back to school and develop job skills. Don't be financially dependent on your husband forever. Having a job or career is about your sense of dignity, not money.
posted by jbenben at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2018 [21 favorites]
Everyone's own beliefs in everyone's own house. Neither his parents nor yours should be the determiners of how your family celebrates.
posted by mccxxiii at 11:50 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mccxxiii at 11:50 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m not getting the impression that anyone said “if you don’t celebrate Christmas, you’re abusive.” I may be misreading things, but my impression was “if you want to celebrate Christmas, and your husband does not because of his relatives’ opinions...” then that would be unkind to the kids and the relationship.
You and your husband get to work out what you celebrate, and if both of you were of the “no Christmas” tradition / belief, then we wouldn’t be here.
But you and your husband are from two different traditions, and it sounds like perhaps he wants to hide the tree out of respect for his parents. But it also sounds like he’s not involving you in this discussion about how to raise children.
That’s the part that feels off.
It is your, the collective you here, home, and you get to talk about and figure out how to respect your own different traditions. But “hide the things that matter to you” isn’t respectful of you or a good thing to teach your kids. So there’s a lot of conversation to have about what matters and what compromises the two of you want to make and why.
It’s not about Christmas, is what I’m saying.
posted by zippy at 12:07 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
You and your husband get to work out what you celebrate, and if both of you were of the “no Christmas” tradition / belief, then we wouldn’t be here.
But you and your husband are from two different traditions, and it sounds like perhaps he wants to hide the tree out of respect for his parents. But it also sounds like he’s not involving you in this discussion about how to raise children.
That’s the part that feels off.
It is your, the collective you here, home, and you get to talk about and figure out how to respect your own different traditions. But “hide the things that matter to you” isn’t respectful of you or a good thing to teach your kids. So there’s a lot of conversation to have about what matters and what compromises the two of you want to make and why.
It’s not about Christmas, is what I’m saying.
posted by zippy at 12:07 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer:
My family did not celebrate Christmas or birthdays. It's deeply weird to find a bunch of strangers on the internet deciding post facto that I was raised in an abusive environment
there's nothing at all abusive (or "cultish") about this particular aspect of religious tradition and my religious relatives came from the same general perspective though not this particular sect, it is completely reasonable and obviously not abusive. but it is arguably abusive to raise a child in an environment where their father's belief system overrides their mother's every time the two are in conflict. there is nothing wrong with not observing birthdays and everything wrong with forbidding a spouse to do so.
it isn't like christmas trees & birthdays are for normal people and this guy is enforcing abnormality on his kid and therefore is wrong, that's really offensive. religious minorities are not wrong because their practices and beliefs are unusual to some. but both spouses are equal partners and the child has two equal parents. that's not negotiable the way christmas trees are.
(which, you could compromise on by designating one room the christmas room and keeping the decor out of the rest of the house, that's fair. but not banning it in a home that's supposedly yours. a room of one's own etc.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:09 PM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
My family did not celebrate Christmas or birthdays. It's deeply weird to find a bunch of strangers on the internet deciding post facto that I was raised in an abusive environment
there's nothing at all abusive (or "cultish") about this particular aspect of religious tradition and my religious relatives came from the same general perspective though not this particular sect, it is completely reasonable and obviously not abusive. but it is arguably abusive to raise a child in an environment where their father's belief system overrides their mother's every time the two are in conflict. there is nothing wrong with not observing birthdays and everything wrong with forbidding a spouse to do so.
it isn't like christmas trees & birthdays are for normal people and this guy is enforcing abnormality on his kid and therefore is wrong, that's really offensive. religious minorities are not wrong because their practices and beliefs are unusual to some. but both spouses are equal partners and the child has two equal parents. that's not negotiable the way christmas trees are.
(which, you could compromise on by designating one room the christmas room and keeping the decor out of the rest of the house, that's fair. but not banning it in a home that's supposedly yours. a room of one's own etc.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:09 PM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
It's really not that weird to not celebrate Christmas as a kid. There can be some angst about it but it also makes great chances to talk about different traditions and reasons behind them and form a more whole understanding of the many different ways there are to be a person. But it's also not that weird to be a bystander to different religious traditions in your own home. What about folks who say grace or prayers before a meal? When someone is sharing that meal with them who doesn't pray before eating, it's not like the observant person should have to abstain from prayer to make the other person feel okay. Or if someone has a shrine for their ancestors in their living room - if a family member doesn't believe in the point of that, they shouldn't get to remove the shrine when they're in the room. Your husband can be in a house with a Christmas tree and not participate in Christmas, and your kid can learn that Dad doesn't do Christmas stuff but that's okay since he does all the other Dad stuff throughout the year.
One other alternative is, I know you said that you don't have a very close knit family, but if you have parents or aunts and uncles or adult siblings who do Christmas, you could make it a tradition to visit them for the holidays. It could be a special time for just you and the kid and give your husband space in the house to be not surrounded by Christmas stuff - maybe he could even visit with his family at that time too. Plenty of interfaith families split up to do different things at the winter solstice holidays and that doesn't make those family ties any weaker - if anything, it can strengthen bonds over time since they get regular practice respecting each other's different ways of enjoying the season.
I think birthdays should be treated as a separate issue. You're going to have to have a lot of important and ongoing talks with your husband about things like what's okay in terms of gifts, if parties in your house are something he's comfortable with, if he's willing to help you do any of the work like making a cake or planning a special activity, if when your kid is old enough to ask for specific birthday things he'll be willing to engage with that (like if the kid wants to spend all day with Dad on their birthday, is he going to say no?) and the list goes on. But all of that is very easy to not bring up to his side of the family, since it's not a specific time of year when everyone is talking about celebratory plans. And it's easy to keep birthday stuff out of the house or low-key if that's what you agree on without keeping fun birthdays out of your kid's life entirely.
The common point between these two things is communication. Talks between you two as parents, between you and your kid and your husband and your kid, between the three of you as a household as the years progress and feelings shift, between you and your husband as an interfaith couple, even if neither of you "have" faith in a christian sense. Do whatever you can to get comfortable talking about difficult things.
posted by Mizu at 12:13 PM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
One other alternative is, I know you said that you don't have a very close knit family, but if you have parents or aunts and uncles or adult siblings who do Christmas, you could make it a tradition to visit them for the holidays. It could be a special time for just you and the kid and give your husband space in the house to be not surrounded by Christmas stuff - maybe he could even visit with his family at that time too. Plenty of interfaith families split up to do different things at the winter solstice holidays and that doesn't make those family ties any weaker - if anything, it can strengthen bonds over time since they get regular practice respecting each other's different ways of enjoying the season.
I think birthdays should be treated as a separate issue. You're going to have to have a lot of important and ongoing talks with your husband about things like what's okay in terms of gifts, if parties in your house are something he's comfortable with, if he's willing to help you do any of the work like making a cake or planning a special activity, if when your kid is old enough to ask for specific birthday things he'll be willing to engage with that (like if the kid wants to spend all day with Dad on their birthday, is he going to say no?) and the list goes on. But all of that is very easy to not bring up to his side of the family, since it's not a specific time of year when everyone is talking about celebratory plans. And it's easy to keep birthday stuff out of the house or low-key if that's what you agree on without keeping fun birthdays out of your kid's life entirely.
The common point between these two things is communication. Talks between you two as parents, between you and your kid and your husband and your kid, between the three of you as a household as the years progress and feelings shift, between you and your husband as an interfaith couple, even if neither of you "have" faith in a christian sense. Do whatever you can to get comfortable talking about difficult things.
posted by Mizu at 12:13 PM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
This internet stranger is going to agree that this needs to be a larger discussion about intent and expectations. Celebrating low-key birthdays and Christmas is different than doing so in a way that "keeps up with the Jones." (omg kids with multiple expensive birthday parties! and houses with every single Christmas item ever sold!) His JW roots may be saying "we love you and celebrate you all day every day so why do we need a special day to do so?" and "we show love and charity for our family and community year round so why do we need a month to pat ourselves on the back for it?" --but it's easier to put it on the family than to sound cheap regarding parties for the whole class (and again for the family!) and or unholiday-y Christmas baubles.
posted by beaning at 12:15 PM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by beaning at 12:15 PM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I would roll with it for now.
Yes I agree this is unreasonable. Yes I agree that dishonesty is bad.
However you know what is good? Kindness to our kind parents. Avoiding unnecessary hurt.
He's already bent a lot on this.
Make your home nice. Make your holiday celebrations homey and pleasant. He was raised to believe this stuff is incompatible with his values. (There is a lot in popular culture to support this point of view!) Show him that you're not here to disrespect his parents. Show him that holidays can be about happy family time and not about gross consumer greed. Let him experience peaceful Christmas mornings that aren't about Wal-mart shopping or piles of useless trash and gift-related butthurt.
Once he experiences this, once his internal understanding of holidays is reset, it will be ok.
ps congratulations on the marriage, I'm relieved!
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:25 PM on April 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yes I agree this is unreasonable. Yes I agree that dishonesty is bad.
However you know what is good? Kindness to our kind parents. Avoiding unnecessary hurt.
He's already bent a lot on this.
Make your home nice. Make your holiday celebrations homey and pleasant. He was raised to believe this stuff is incompatible with his values. (There is a lot in popular culture to support this point of view!) Show him that you're not here to disrespect his parents. Show him that holidays can be about happy family time and not about gross consumer greed. Let him experience peaceful Christmas mornings that aren't about Wal-mart shopping or piles of useless trash and gift-related butthurt.
Once he experiences this, once his internal understanding of holidays is reset, it will be ok.
ps congratulations on the marriage, I'm relieved!
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:25 PM on April 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
After persistent nagging, my partner finally agreed to have a Christmas tree and celebrations, which completely rocked my world. Though it came with a caveat: if any of his family happens to visit during the holiday season then no Christmas. Period. Even posting photos of Christmas related things are “prohibited” because his family might see them. I think this is unfair.
Let's examine fairness in a marriage when 2 conflicting views are presented.
It does sound like he agreed to this to be a good husband and keep the peace as you've stated that his reluctance is more about his personal beliefs but it looks like he's using the importance of family argument as leverage ..(perhaps due to your nagging?) This is unfair.
Ok. So then he gives in and you get what you want, which you know is a belief he's adamantly against, and that you knowingly married into and agreed to up until this point, with a few caveats of his own. This is called negotiation. This is fair.
You oppose his negotiations with pushing further terms to your wanted changes. Ie. Advertising it on social media and potentially causing a permanent rift between his family relations to him and your child. This is unfair.
I do not agree that he is being unfair, he is demonstrating a willingness to adapt to and negotiate changes as your marriage and family evolves and grows. I believe you are being unfair in demanding that it goes 100% in your favor. This is now the time for compassionate compromise.
Some ideas of what that can look like are:
Designating a week of the year for private family holiday celebrations that include your circle, and letting his family know that this week of the year is off limits for visiting for *reasons* that you can "white lie" about to keep family peace and good relations intact. There is no reason to have to post details or pictures of this to social media, If documenting it is important to you maybe you can have a photo album printed.
Negotiating a birthday rule much the same. Perhaps discuss ways that you may celebrate an "unbirthday" of sorts (Alice in wonderland?) together as a family?
Understand that as your child gets older this will all be more difficult to keep a secret from his family, so discuss fair ways to approach that inevitable day before it arrives and tensions are high. It sounds like he is legitimately concerned that his family will cut off ties with your family over this, in addition to experiencing personal discomfort of his own, so imagine what that would be like for you as a personal challenge and go kindly from there.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:26 PM on April 1, 2018
Let's examine fairness in a marriage when 2 conflicting views are presented.
It does sound like he agreed to this to be a good husband and keep the peace as you've stated that his reluctance is more about his personal beliefs but it looks like he's using the importance of family argument as leverage ..(perhaps due to your nagging?) This is unfair.
Ok. So then he gives in and you get what you want, which you know is a belief he's adamantly against, and that you knowingly married into and agreed to up until this point, with a few caveats of his own. This is called negotiation. This is fair.
You oppose his negotiations with pushing further terms to your wanted changes. Ie. Advertising it on social media and potentially causing a permanent rift between his family relations to him and your child. This is unfair.
I do not agree that he is being unfair, he is demonstrating a willingness to adapt to and negotiate changes as your marriage and family evolves and grows. I believe you are being unfair in demanding that it goes 100% in your favor. This is now the time for compassionate compromise.
Some ideas of what that can look like are:
Designating a week of the year for private family holiday celebrations that include your circle, and letting his family know that this week of the year is off limits for visiting for *reasons* that you can "white lie" about to keep family peace and good relations intact. There is no reason to have to post details or pictures of this to social media, If documenting it is important to you maybe you can have a photo album printed.
Negotiating a birthday rule much the same. Perhaps discuss ways that you may celebrate an "unbirthday" of sorts (Alice in wonderland?) together as a family?
Understand that as your child gets older this will all be more difficult to keep a secret from his family, so discuss fair ways to approach that inevitable day before it arrives and tensions are high. It sounds like he is legitimately concerned that his family will cut off ties with your family over this, in addition to experiencing personal discomfort of his own, so imagine what that would be like for you as a personal challenge and go kindly from there.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:26 PM on April 1, 2018
Think about how your child/ren will feel when they find out that they don't get to have birthday parties or Christmas trees because of Grandma and Grandpa on Dad's side.
Tell your husband that he has to get it together regarding how he's going to handle it, because that way only leads to kids who hate their grandparents.
Sometimes there are no good answers. Yeah, they might disavow(?) him. Then again, they might not. But for sure if your kid(s) don't get birthday presents and birthday parties and it falls to *you* to explain why? That's just a lose-lose-lose-lose situation. Your husband has to make some hard decisions, and soon.
posted by tzikeh at 12:27 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Tell your husband that he has to get it together regarding how he's going to handle it, because that way only leads to kids who hate their grandparents.
Sometimes there are no good answers. Yeah, they might disavow(?) him. Then again, they might not. But for sure if your kid(s) don't get birthday presents and birthday parties and it falls to *you* to explain why? That's just a lose-lose-lose-lose situation. Your husband has to make some hard decisions, and soon.
posted by tzikeh at 12:27 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. This needs to not be a side argument about what speculatively constitutes abuse, cut it out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
just to illustrate my prior answer: what would YOU respond better to?
"the values system in which you were raised is less important than my desire to have parties when I want"
OR
"I really appreciate you bending on this. I know it's painful. I want you to know I love and appreciate your parents and their feelings are important to me too. For now, let's create our own family practices in a way we're comfortable with; I can live without posting this stuff on Facebook or whatever. I think we can create family traditions that will feel right for us both. We can revisit how we explain things to your family the future if your feelings change. For now this is for us."
with regard to the Christmas visits, it's theoretical for now anyway, they live overseas. Leave it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
"the values system in which you were raised is less important than my desire to have parties when I want"
OR
"I really appreciate you bending on this. I know it's painful. I want you to know I love and appreciate your parents and their feelings are important to me too. For now, let's create our own family practices in a way we're comfortable with; I can live without posting this stuff on Facebook or whatever. I think we can create family traditions that will feel right for us both. We can revisit how we explain things to your family the future if your feelings change. For now this is for us."
with regard to the Christmas visits, it's theoretical for now anyway, they live overseas. Leave it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm not getting much of a sense that you realize how important this is to your husband and the sacrifice he has made regarding this. It's not that he's ambivalent towards Christmas--he thinks it is wrong to celebrate it. His family thinks it is wrong to celebrate it. If you wanted to celebrate Christmas for religious reasons I would understand your point of view more but you have an an atheist/agnostic household and you still want to celebrate a Christian holiday just because it's fun for you. He probably thinks this is a really, really, really frivolous reason to rock this particular boat with his family. They aren't viewing Christmas the same way you are. For them this means something much more significant than happy feelings of presents and trees and cookies. You are trivializing their religious beliefs so you can feel good about seeing your kid get excited about a tree and presents. I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I think you maybe don't get it because Christmas means an entirely different thing to them than it does to you and it's not a crazy, horrible, abusive thing that your husband doesn't want to disrespect his family's belief system. He has really compromised on this to make you happy--and probably on something that does seem frivolous to him--so I'm not sure it's so horrible that he ask that you don't rub this i his family's face. That's not necessarily his family controlling what you do.
posted by Polychrome at 5:23 PM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Polychrome at 5:23 PM on April 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Hi, I am also agnostic and love christmas. LOVE christmas. It does have deep meaning to me even though I'm not religious, similar to what I imagine thanksgiving means to Americans (I'm not american). I love the lights, the tree, the decorations from my grandmother, the biscuits we've made together every year since I was a little girl. I love finding ways to show my family that I love them. I think it's easy to trivialise this as 'liking presents and making cookies' but that's unfair, christmas can still be significant for you without religious meaning. It is for me.
If my husband's stance was 'don't do this thing that brings you great joy, which I personally am ambivalent about, because my parents think your feelings are wrong', well, we'd have a problem. I thinking hiding it short term is easy - sorry, the last two weeks of December are a bad time to visit, and just do whatever you need to do so they don't see the pics online. But if his parents see your kids, eventually they're likely to slip up and let the cat out of the bag. Plus what happens when his parents think your kids beliefs or feelings are wrong? To me, marriage means when push comes to shove - you prioritise your spouse. Your parents beliefs shouldn't dictate your spouses behaviour in their own home.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:24 PM on April 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
If my husband's stance was 'don't do this thing that brings you great joy, which I personally am ambivalent about, because my parents think your feelings are wrong', well, we'd have a problem. I thinking hiding it short term is easy - sorry, the last two weeks of December are a bad time to visit, and just do whatever you need to do so they don't see the pics online. But if his parents see your kids, eventually they're likely to slip up and let the cat out of the bag. Plus what happens when his parents think your kids beliefs or feelings are wrong? To me, marriage means when push comes to shove - you prioritise your spouse. Your parents beliefs shouldn't dictate your spouses behaviour in their own home.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:24 PM on April 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: You are trivializing their religious beliefs so you can feel good about seeing your kid get excited about a tree and presents.
Actually, they are trivializing my feelings because they do in fact regard Christmas as frivolous whether it had any religious value to me or not. My intentions were never to rub events that I know they disagree with in their faces; that is exactly what I don’t want to do. What I don’t agree with is that somehow having fringe religious beliefs gives a trump card to have their intolerance catered to which is quite frankly manipulative. These are fully formed adults that I would expect to understand that those outside of their faith do not only exist, but practice the very traditions they abhor. I’ve shown my respect over the years to his family and will continue to do so. I don’t expect or ask that they participate and I never violate their space with my preferences. But it’s not my duty to marginalize my own desire for tradition (in my own home with our own children) because their religion matters “more” and my lack of should matter substantially less.
I’m thrilled that my husband compromised and we are talking through the fine points so that we both feel acknowledged.
posted by dea at 8:45 PM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Actually, they are trivializing my feelings because they do in fact regard Christmas as frivolous whether it had any religious value to me or not. My intentions were never to rub events that I know they disagree with in their faces; that is exactly what I don’t want to do. What I don’t agree with is that somehow having fringe religious beliefs gives a trump card to have their intolerance catered to which is quite frankly manipulative. These are fully formed adults that I would expect to understand that those outside of their faith do not only exist, but practice the very traditions they abhor. I’ve shown my respect over the years to his family and will continue to do so. I don’t expect or ask that they participate and I never violate their space with my preferences. But it’s not my duty to marginalize my own desire for tradition (in my own home with our own children) because their religion matters “more” and my lack of should matter substantially less.
I’m thrilled that my husband compromised and we are talking through the fine points so that we both feel acknowledged.
posted by dea at 8:45 PM on April 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Best answer: "The zero Christmas stuff if family visits is bs. It’s basically asking you to be closeted. They have to see Christmas trees when out and about, so they’re not going to burst into flame seeing them in your home. If they have a problem with that, then maybe you can visit their homes instead."
Right, but, if they come to his house and he has a Christmas tree, they have to leave. They don't interfere in other people's Christmas celebrations, but they cannot attend a family event that is a Christmas celebration, like a holiday family dinner even. (Similarly, don't ever try to have a "not-a-birthday" dinner for a JW friend near their birthday.) So having Christmas stuff in the house does basically mean his family can't visit during the holidays. Which, since they live internationally, is hopefully not too tricky and summer visits can be the norm.
OP, there are websites and groups out there for ex-JWs and for family members of JWs, which may have more on-point advice than we can give you, from people who've navigated these specific situations. I think you and your husband need to figure out what's right for your family and what you want to do, and then secondarily figure out how you'll address those issues with his family and your public-facing personas. Like, not ever posting about Christmas on social media is a lot to ask, but can you put together a block list for your Christmas posts that consists of his family (and any family friends who could conceivably create problems there) and post your Christmas pictures with his family blocked? That would allow you to share your family celebrations with friends, while not distressing his family or putting them in an awkward situation w/r/t their son's practices.
It's always a tricky situation for families that are part JW and part not, and you're definitely not alone in navigating these problems, so I strongly suggest seeking out others in the same boat.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 PM on April 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Right, but, if they come to his house and he has a Christmas tree, they have to leave. They don't interfere in other people's Christmas celebrations, but they cannot attend a family event that is a Christmas celebration, like a holiday family dinner even. (Similarly, don't ever try to have a "not-a-birthday" dinner for a JW friend near their birthday.) So having Christmas stuff in the house does basically mean his family can't visit during the holidays. Which, since they live internationally, is hopefully not too tricky and summer visits can be the norm.
OP, there are websites and groups out there for ex-JWs and for family members of JWs, which may have more on-point advice than we can give you, from people who've navigated these specific situations. I think you and your husband need to figure out what's right for your family and what you want to do, and then secondarily figure out how you'll address those issues with his family and your public-facing personas. Like, not ever posting about Christmas on social media is a lot to ask, but can you put together a block list for your Christmas posts that consists of his family (and any family friends who could conceivably create problems there) and post your Christmas pictures with his family blocked? That would allow you to share your family celebrations with friends, while not distressing his family or putting them in an awkward situation w/r/t their son's practices.
It's always a tricky situation for families that are part JW and part not, and you're definitely not alone in navigating these problems, so I strongly suggest seeking out others in the same boat.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 PM on April 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Yay on getting married! I am so glad to hear that. Thinking back, you didn't mention that your husband's family are active members of a cult in your previous post, and in retrospect that makes a lot of the dynamics you described there make more sense-- the traditional wedding he'd been holding out for was a Jehovah's Witness wedding, not a Scandinavian cultural thing.
It sounds like your husband has a LOT of personal work to do when it comes to establishing himself as an adult with healthy boundaries with his family. He needs to work out what it means to have left the JW, and to actually come into his own as a person who has done that, not someone who is going to sneak around and have a secret family and secret holidays that his family's disapproval has priority over. Counseling, ex-JW communities, whatever-- this is work he needs to do for your sake and for his child's.
And he needs to do this right now, because the situation you just described, watching his mom nag and beg permission from his dad to hold a secret Christmas that needs to be hidden because you're all living in fear of Grandma and Grandpa in Scandinavia, that is such a harmful thing for your young son to witness. I can't even begin to put into words how much this ongoing power dynamic-- I'm sure Christmas and birthdays are only one example of "prohibited" things-- is going to mess your kid up if it's allowed to continue. Your husband is a parent now, and he needs to understand that his responsibility as a father has to be more important than his fears as a son. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:54 AM on April 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
It sounds like your husband has a LOT of personal work to do when it comes to establishing himself as an adult with healthy boundaries with his family. He needs to work out what it means to have left the JW, and to actually come into his own as a person who has done that, not someone who is going to sneak around and have a secret family and secret holidays that his family's disapproval has priority over. Counseling, ex-JW communities, whatever-- this is work he needs to do for your sake and for his child's.
And he needs to do this right now, because the situation you just described, watching his mom nag and beg permission from his dad to hold a secret Christmas that needs to be hidden because you're all living in fear of Grandma and Grandpa in Scandinavia, that is such a harmful thing for your young son to witness. I can't even begin to put into words how much this ongoing power dynamic-- I'm sure Christmas and birthdays are only one example of "prohibited" things-- is going to mess your kid up if it's allowed to continue. Your husband is a parent now, and he needs to understand that his responsibility as a father has to be more important than his fears as a son. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:54 AM on April 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
if any of his family happens to visit during the holiday season then no Christmas. Period.
Everything else aside, if the goal is for your husband to act like his family is not acknowledging Christmas (for example, by not posting photos that might be seen) then he is going to fail because even though you can put away the tinsel and such, you are going to have a kid with no skills at keeping a secret. Whether it's talking about Santa Claus coming to town while at the dinner table or telling Grandpa that they can't wait to put the tree up after they leave, the kid is going to blow your cover.
posted by mikepop at 11:27 AM on April 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Everything else aside, if the goal is for your husband to act like his family is not acknowledging Christmas (for example, by not posting photos that might be seen) then he is going to fail because even though you can put away the tinsel and such, you are going to have a kid with no skills at keeping a secret. Whether it's talking about Santa Claus coming to town while at the dinner table or telling Grandpa that they can't wait to put the tree up after they leave, the kid is going to blow your cover.
posted by mikepop at 11:27 AM on April 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I feel for your husband and I'm surprised he and his family are getting such a lack of sympathy in this thread. Disentangling from these aspects of his upbringing will be an ongoing process for him, and not an easy one.
I was raised in a mixed-faith family where we initially hid the fact that we celebrated one set of holidays from the other side of the family. That worked real well until I was about 3, and blurted out the wrong holiday greeting to those grandparents. Nevertheless, we continued to take down decorations before those grandparents visited for many years. I can assure you that although it was slightly annoying, it was not psychologically traumatic. Also, over the years everyone relaxed quite a bit; in the end I don't think it was as emotional for my grandparents as my parents had initially anticipated, and it probably would have not been a big deal if everyone had just been honest from the start.
posted by karbonokapi at 11:28 AM on April 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was raised in a mixed-faith family where we initially hid the fact that we celebrated one set of holidays from the other side of the family. That worked real well until I was about 3, and blurted out the wrong holiday greeting to those grandparents. Nevertheless, we continued to take down decorations before those grandparents visited for many years. I can assure you that although it was slightly annoying, it was not psychologically traumatic. Also, over the years everyone relaxed quite a bit; in the end I don't think it was as emotional for my grandparents as my parents had initially anticipated, and it probably would have not been a big deal if everyone had just been honest from the start.
posted by karbonokapi at 11:28 AM on April 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hmm, I find it weird that the conversation on ABUSE came up before INTERFAITH MARRIAGES. Which is what this Q seems to me to be about. Which are not that uncommon, right? You could seek resources in the form of a counselor who deals with this issue or books or asking other interfaith families how they deal. No kids, but the way my interfaith extended family deals is to celebrate all holidays. When we visited my Christian family during one Diwali, we thought about peacing out for a minute to celebrate with Hindu cousins and decided to just skip a year. Obviously things like the wedding were tougher negotiations but definitely doable with a lot of love and understanding and strategic-keeping-out-of-the-looping. It can be a high degree of difficulty situation but I am sure y'all got this.
posted by athirstforsalt at 4:51 AM on April 3, 2018
posted by athirstforsalt at 4:51 AM on April 3, 2018
Best answer: While we have this discussion it would be great and probably helpful to the OP if we don't trivialize Christmas, either, as a few comments sort of gesture to. Even a secular Christmas is still a celebration of certain values, and that can be as deeply held and meaningful to a person as religious values.
posted by Miko at 5:32 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:32 AM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
Right, but, if they come to his house and he has a Christmas tree, they have to leave. They don't interfere in other people's Christmas celebrations, but they cannot attend a family event that is a Christmas celebration, like a holiday family dinner even.
I just want to build on that and say I get that the tenet is to not celebrate Christmas, so one solution would be “hey all, we let’s schedule visits that aren’t at Christmas because we want to respect you as hosts.”
There are a lot of weeks in the year that aren’t right at Christmas.
posted by zippy at 10:31 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I just want to build on that and say I get that the tenet is to not celebrate Christmas, so one solution would be “hey all, we let’s schedule visits that aren’t at Christmas because we want to respect you as hosts.”
There are a lot of weeks in the year that aren’t right at Christmas.
posted by zippy at 10:31 AM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
They have to see Christmas trees when out and about, so they’re not going to burst into flame seeing them in your home. If they have a problem with that, then maybe you can visit their homes instead.
posted by zippy at 8:46 AM on April 1, 2018 [48 favorites]