I've lost all my patience with Windows notworking.
March 20, 2018 6:06 PM   Subscribe

Can anyone tell me why the hell a Windows workgroup just stops working. machines vanish off of the network, and are unreachable via network browsing when no one has even touched them. (All the machines involved are in my house). I'm at my wits end.

All the machines are on the default "WORKGROUP", have file and printer sharing turned on, and are running Windows 10. In addition to the 6 Windows machines, there are two networked printers, and a NAS device. DHCP is provided by the router (TP-Link Archer C5). All of the above is connected via Ethernet. In addition, there are a couple of iPads, an iPhone, and about 3 Android devices connected via Wifi. Everything has excellent Internet connectivity. (I'm on 100 Mbps Comcast).

So why do untouched machines just *vanish* from the network, with no amount of rebooting or massaging able to bring them back? I've been down the Google-hole of dodgy solutions, with no luck. Am I wrong to think that maybe it's some sort or Windows Update fuckery?

Lastly, is there some aftermarket product that (even if it costs $$$) that will fix this shitty situation? I'm just weary of dealing with it all.

Windows homegroup doesn't seem to work, either. ipv6 required? inside a NAT? Geez.
posted by pjern to Computers & Internet (14 answers total)
 
My first thought is that something else on the network is clogging things up, or took over the domain or something (I'm not a Windows networking guy). Did you add something to the network recently?

My next step would be to run Wireshark and sniff the network. But that's a pretty deep rabbit hole to head down ...
posted by intermod at 7:56 PM on March 20, 2018 [1 favorite]


What is the DHCP lease time on the router? A short renew cycle can set off an SMB / NMBD election war in a group of windows machines without a server. A machine rebooting regularly could also do it, or if the ethernet switch is dropping / "securing" machines from each other.

Try giving them all static IP addresses and see if it goes away.
posted by nickggully at 8:04 PM on March 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


I second assigning static IPs by MAC address in your router as a first step.
posted by Short End Of A Wishbone at 8:29 PM on March 20, 2018


Requests for clarification:

untouched machines just *vanish* from the network

1. When untouched machines vanish from the network, do they disappear one at a time, or in bunches?

no amount of rebooting or massaging able to bring them back

2. Are we talking no amount of rebooting or massaging of the machine(s) that vanished, or of the machine(s) that can no longer see them?
posted by flabdablet at 9:28 PM on March 20, 2018


Also, I would recommend not just starting in with applying possible fixes for random possible problems until the cause of this failure has actually been nailed down a little better. Simple fact is that the setup you've described should be working, and some specific failure has stopped it from working; any alterations to the way you have stuff set up should therefore be limited to diagnostic purposes at this stage.

Before reaching for Wireshark (which may well be a thing that helps at some point) it would be good to get some kind of handle on what level of the networking stack the disappearances are happening at.

3. When a machine "vanishes from the network", does it vanish from the point of view of all its peers, or just some?

4. How much of the network remains visible from the one that "vanished"?

5. What exact response message do you get when you open a cmd console and try to ping a machine that's vanished?

6. What about when you open one on a machine that's vanished and try to ping something else?

7. Do wifi-connected non-Windows machines ever vanish, or does this issue affect Ethernet-connected Windows boxes only?
posted by flabdablet at 9:38 PM on March 20, 2018


8. The number of Ethernet-connected machines you have there suggests to me that you must have some Ethernet switches in your setup as well as your TP-Link router. Are those switches managed i.e. do they have their own little admin web pages?
posted by flabdablet at 9:42 PM on March 20, 2018 [1 favorite]


9. Are there children or other basically benign but technically clueless household members who have physical access to the switches and/or their power supplies?
posted by flabdablet at 9:44 PM on March 20, 2018


10. Has this setup in fact ever worked properly?
posted by flabdablet at 9:47 PM on March 20, 2018


Am I wrong to think that maybe it's some sort or Windows Update fuckery?

It may well turn out to be some sort of Windows Update fuckery, because Windows Update is constructed almost entirely from fuckery, but if that was actually the thing I'd expect the Googles to be more useful than they have been.

I'm tipping that it will turn out to be some specific local failure, and recommending that you keep your fuckery-resistant sunglasses on when standing close to a Windows box to avoid getting distracted by it.

But speaking of fuckery:

11. Are any of your machines running any non-MS always-on anti-malware software?
posted by flabdablet at 9:53 PM on March 20, 2018


Something similar happens on my TP-Link Archer C3150. I don't have any Windows machines, but both Linux laptops will sometimes become mysteriously unreachable ("no route to host") from other local devices even though they still report having the same IP address and are still able to access the internet through the router. It is spooky.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:05 PM on March 20, 2018


Response by poster: Some clarifications:

What is the DHCP lease time on the router?

it was set to 120 minutes. I bumped it to the max of 2880.

When untouched machines vanish from the network, do they disappear one at a time, or in bunches?

Sometimes, all of them save one. Sometimes visibility is one-way. I, for example, can't see my wife's machine at all in the Network browser, but can access her shared desktop via a shortcut on the quick access menu that existed prior to the problems.

Are we talking no amount of rebooting or massaging of the machine(s) that vanished, or of the machine(s) that can no longer see them?


Rebooting the entire network hasn't helped.

When a machine "vanishes from the network", does it vanish from the point of view of all its peers, or just some?


All of them.

How much of the network remains visible from the one that "vanished"?

That's a good question. More than one machine vanishes, though. For example, my old desktop machine, where I kept a share of (ahem) video files, was rock solid until the day it simply vanished. My wife's machine similarly vanished.

What exact response message do you get when you open a cmd console and try to ping a machine that's vanished?

My wife's desktop is invisible to the Network browser, but opening CMD and pinging it:
Pinging Sheryl-PC-New [192.168.0.110] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 192.168.0.110: bytes=32 time<1>

My desktop as well:
Pinging Phil-Desktop [192.168.0.123] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 192.168.0.123: bytes=32 time<1>


On the machine I am on right now, I can only see myself in the network browser, but I can ping other machines.

Has this setup in fact ever worked properly?

Yes, it worked fine for over a year, with no apparent glitches.

Are there children or other basically benign but technically clueless household members who have physical access to the switches and/or their power supplies?

No, just my wife and I.

Are any of your machines running any non-MS always-on anti-malware software?

No.

Are those switches managed i.e. do they have their own little admin web pages?

Nope, they are plain-jane Netgear gigabyte switches.
posted by pjern at 11:54 PM on March 20, 2018


OK, so the ping test pretty much rules out issues caused by the network hardware, and we're definitely on the track of something gone wrong inside Windows itself.

The fact that you get replies from machines invisible to the network browser when you ping them by name also rules out DNS issues.

The fact that vanishing machines disappear from all their peers at once means that this is not a client-side caching issue.

So the next most likely place to look for trouble is authentication issues, and this is where Windows gets particularly squirrelly.

If you open a cmd window on Sheryl-PC-New and type NET SHARE, what do you get?

Also on Sheryl-PC-New, if you browse to Control Panel -> Network and Sharing Center -> Advanced Sharing Settings, what's the current state of the "Password Protected Sharing" option?
posted by flabdablet at 1:50 AM on March 21, 2018


Another thing to check, while you're looking at Advanced Sharing Settings: which network profile ("Private" / "Guest or Public") is marked as current?

(the Password Protected Sharing option I'm curious about appears in the "All Networks" section).
posted by flabdablet at 1:57 AM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


If you can't find those settings: have you already seen this advice? Pasted in case of link rot:
Up until Creators Update, you could change it from either Start > Settings > Network & Internet > Wi-Fi > Advanced Options or Start > Settings > Network & Internet > Ethernet with the setting "Make this PC discoverable".

However, it would appear that by some miracle of bonkers thinking from with Microsoft, there is no way to change this at all now from settings!

To change it now, you either have to delete the network profile and let it recreate - make sure you choose the right setting! Or you can use PowerShell:

Get-NetConnectionProfile

Which lists the profiles and from which you need to find the index number

Set-NetConnectionProfile -InterfaceIndex 1 -NetworkCategory Private

Where 1 is the index number of the profile to change so may be something other than 1
It's entirely plausible to me that an update might have triggered some cheap and shitty heuristic (sorry, "smart" classifier) that's now decided that your Ethernet connections are Public instead of Private and therefore shouldn't be allowed to expose file sharing.
posted by flabdablet at 2:05 AM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


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