I'm not able to internally manipulate feelings, what's it called?
March 19, 2018 3:05 AM Subscribe
I'm trying to find a name for my experience with emotions.
I don't experience emotions as choices, at all, ever. So when people try to use phrases like "move on" or "let go" it baffles me, because I can't comprehend being able to frame feelings like that. I don't understand why ideas like forgiveness or acceptance exist, because that's not how emotions are for me. When people say therapy is work I don't get that either, because I can't understand being able to work at feelings. Like, when someone says I am "letting" myself feel a particular way it makes as much sense to me as saying someone "lets" themselves have cancer. No one ever believes me when I say this, and then they get really, really blame-y (even therapists).
I've been like this my whole life. Until fairly recently I assumed no one could really do things like CBT, etc, and that it was all a massive scam. (If I'm honest, I still think this.) I thought when people talked about "letting go" of feelings it was just a metaphorical turn of phrase. Then I read this article on Galton's theory of visual imagination (basically, some people can't see pictures in their heads and don't realize anyone can, people who can don't realize anyone cannot) and I think my experience with feelings might be like this, or some weird neurological quirk like face blindness. Does anyone else have this, and is there any way I can explain it to people so that they get it? Ideally I'm looking for a term for this psychological condition.
The absolute worst experiences I've had in therapy have been with CBT and it's derivatives--that's exactly the type of thing I cannot do, so please don't suggest CBT or any of its derivatives, like DBT etc. Also, please, if you don't understand that this is a real thing, and I'm not just "refusing to let go" or whatever, just sit this one out. I've been to therapy and tried and tried and gone around and around in circles trying to get the idea of being able to "let go" or "hold on" to feelings, and I just can't understand it, I'm not looking for a way to do that, I'm looking for what this is called so I don't have to keep trying and failing to explain it over and over.
I don't experience emotions as choices, at all, ever. So when people try to use phrases like "move on" or "let go" it baffles me, because I can't comprehend being able to frame feelings like that. I don't understand why ideas like forgiveness or acceptance exist, because that's not how emotions are for me. When people say therapy is work I don't get that either, because I can't understand being able to work at feelings. Like, when someone says I am "letting" myself feel a particular way it makes as much sense to me as saying someone "lets" themselves have cancer. No one ever believes me when I say this, and then they get really, really blame-y (even therapists).
I've been like this my whole life. Until fairly recently I assumed no one could really do things like CBT, etc, and that it was all a massive scam. (If I'm honest, I still think this.) I thought when people talked about "letting go" of feelings it was just a metaphorical turn of phrase. Then I read this article on Galton's theory of visual imagination (basically, some people can't see pictures in their heads and don't realize anyone can, people who can don't realize anyone cannot) and I think my experience with feelings might be like this, or some weird neurological quirk like face blindness. Does anyone else have this, and is there any way I can explain it to people so that they get it? Ideally I'm looking for a term for this psychological condition.
The absolute worst experiences I've had in therapy have been with CBT and it's derivatives--that's exactly the type of thing I cannot do, so please don't suggest CBT or any of its derivatives, like DBT etc. Also, please, if you don't understand that this is a real thing, and I'm not just "refusing to let go" or whatever, just sit this one out. I've been to therapy and tried and tried and gone around and around in circles trying to get the idea of being able to "let go" or "hold on" to feelings, and I just can't understand it, I'm not looking for a way to do that, I'm looking for what this is called so I don't have to keep trying and failing to explain it over and over.
1. I believe you. How frustrating. 2. I don’t know what this is called, just wanted to express my hope that the Hive Mind can come up with an answer for you. Hugs!
posted by Bella Donna at 3:53 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:53 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can relate. CBT and DBT just do.not.work for me either.
What has helped in my case is learning to observe emotions. They're still there, I still feel them, they still affect me, and I observe all of that. It took a very long time.
Have you tried other therapy modalities? Straight-out told your therapist(s) about this? Mine has never told me what to do about my emotions; we talk about them & life.
There are all sorts of different ways of viewing things; different ways of handling emotions are generally part of personality theories. Where the operative word is "theory" :) The important thing is how it interacts with your life and experiences. For that, a type of therapy that works for you can be a huge help.
posted by fraula at 3:55 AM on March 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
What has helped in my case is learning to observe emotions. They're still there, I still feel them, they still affect me, and I observe all of that. It took a very long time.
Have you tried other therapy modalities? Straight-out told your therapist(s) about this? Mine has never told me what to do about my emotions; we talk about them & life.
There are all sorts of different ways of viewing things; different ways of handling emotions are generally part of personality theories. Where the operative word is "theory" :) The important thing is how it interacts with your life and experiences. For that, a type of therapy that works for you can be a huge help.
posted by fraula at 3:55 AM on March 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm not following your instruction perfectly, and you might see why, but I hope you hear me out. I've struggled with CBT too.
I think what you experience is more common than not--nobody can manipulate emotions. They pop up as responses to things because you're you, you have your genes, your experiences, hopes, and dreams. But the key is to not let these emotions beget secondary emotions. In other words, these secondary emotions really only come up when you try to shove away your first emotion. For example, if someone cuts you off at an intersection, the first emotion might be rage. That's usually followed by shame ("I'm awful for always getting worked up over something like this") or frustration ("I try and I try, but CBT keeps not working for me in this scenario!").
The key to a lot of "emotional regulation" might be to get angry but then stop before frustration and shame descend. Anger is instinctive but frustration and shame prey on each other, on the first emotion (anger), and then on you. Before you know it, you park your car with a bunch of negative statements swimming around, and only a fraction of them are related to the jerk who cut you off. If you just LET yourself feel the rage, the blood boil, and enjoy it with the knowledge that you'll always get this rage when you're cut off in the car, then that's probably as close as we can get to controlling feelings.
posted by flyingfork at 3:55 AM on March 19, 2018 [25 favorites]
I think what you experience is more common than not--nobody can manipulate emotions. They pop up as responses to things because you're you, you have your genes, your experiences, hopes, and dreams. But the key is to not let these emotions beget secondary emotions. In other words, these secondary emotions really only come up when you try to shove away your first emotion. For example, if someone cuts you off at an intersection, the first emotion might be rage. That's usually followed by shame ("I'm awful for always getting worked up over something like this") or frustration ("I try and I try, but CBT keeps not working for me in this scenario!").
The key to a lot of "emotional regulation" might be to get angry but then stop before frustration and shame descend. Anger is instinctive but frustration and shame prey on each other, on the first emotion (anger), and then on you. Before you know it, you park your car with a bunch of negative statements swimming around, and only a fraction of them are related to the jerk who cut you off. If you just LET yourself feel the rage, the blood boil, and enjoy it with the knowledge that you'll always get this rage when you're cut off in the car, then that's probably as close as we can get to controlling feelings.
posted by flyingfork at 3:55 AM on March 19, 2018 [25 favorites]
I don't know what this is called either, but I don't know if "absolutist thinking" fits. When I have absolutist thinking it comes in the form of thoughts rather than emotions. They're semi-involuntary thoughts, and they're often accompanied by negative emotions, but they're still thoughts.
That said if this is something you want to work on there are some simple, concrete techniques that help a lot. I know that's not the question you're asking so I won't get into detail, but if you ever do want to ask that question I bet people could help.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:58 AM on March 19, 2018
That said if this is something you want to work on there are some simple, concrete techniques that help a lot. I know that's not the question you're asking so I won't get into detail, but if you ever do want to ask that question I bet people could help.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:58 AM on March 19, 2018
This is kind-of familiar to me, but I think I miss what I understand to be the neurotypical experience of emotions by a similar distance, but in a different direction. I think I have a thing whereby a long while ago I trained myself not to have certain feelings because they didn't seem to do me any good. So now, I can picture the experience of those feelings, or understand someone else's account of having them, or tell a story (even an apparently true story) in which I would or should have had those feelings, but I don't seem to really experience them for myself in any unmediated way. Kind of a selective anhedonia or alexithymia.
So that's different from your experience, but maybe analogous. I'm thinking probably there's a whole range of (possibly developmental?) disorders of emotion - whereby at whatever critical stage a person doesn't get the opportunity to learn how to have or deal with some range of emotions in the "normal" way, and they end up with some kind of stunted growth in that area. In my case I've attenuated my emotions down to this rationalised stub or shadow of an emotion, whereas maybe you just don't or can't attenuate them at all, so they just are whatever they already are, outside of your conscious control? Maybe those disorders or whatever don't all have very good names (yet?).
I hit the buffers in therapy last year when I realised this was a thing for me, but I don't know whether it's because it's untherapisable, or because my therapist was a bit rubbish. The sessions where we strayed anywhere near any kind of CBT approach freaked the living crap out of me, so we have that in common at least.
But the one useful thing I came away with from that therapy experience was a bit more comfort around the idea that I can't or don't process these things the same way that a lot of other people do. So even if I can't fix it, at least I can see it when it's happening, work around it to some extent, and describe it to others for whom it's probably been a baffling or frustrating behaviour of mine up to now. I can basically function in the world, so it's become a thing about self-understanding for me, rather than dealing with an urgent need to Do Things How Everyone Else Apparently Does.
Sorry for the non-answer.
posted by rd45 at 4:01 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
So that's different from your experience, but maybe analogous. I'm thinking probably there's a whole range of (possibly developmental?) disorders of emotion - whereby at whatever critical stage a person doesn't get the opportunity to learn how to have or deal with some range of emotions in the "normal" way, and they end up with some kind of stunted growth in that area. In my case I've attenuated my emotions down to this rationalised stub or shadow of an emotion, whereas maybe you just don't or can't attenuate them at all, so they just are whatever they already are, outside of your conscious control? Maybe those disorders or whatever don't all have very good names (yet?).
I hit the buffers in therapy last year when I realised this was a thing for me, but I don't know whether it's because it's untherapisable, or because my therapist was a bit rubbish. The sessions where we strayed anywhere near any kind of CBT approach freaked the living crap out of me, so we have that in common at least.
But the one useful thing I came away with from that therapy experience was a bit more comfort around the idea that I can't or don't process these things the same way that a lot of other people do. So even if I can't fix it, at least I can see it when it's happening, work around it to some extent, and describe it to others for whom it's probably been a baffling or frustrating behaviour of mine up to now. I can basically function in the world, so it's become a thing about self-understanding for me, rather than dealing with an urgent need to Do Things How Everyone Else Apparently Does.
Sorry for the non-answer.
posted by rd45 at 4:01 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was going to say something similar to fraula, above. I’ve not had a lot of luck with therapy, but what has been most successful is talking or thinking about my feelings after they don’t have a grip on me, just so I can understand a bit better what my triggers are. That said, I’ve been seeing my therapist off and on for about 2 years and I still can’t walk away from a fight with my husband most of the time. An SSRI and anti anxiety medication has helped, but there are trade offs of course.
As to what it’s called, I think that you’re describing emotional dysregulation.
posted by cabingirl at 4:08 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
As to what it’s called, I think that you’re describing emotional dysregulation.
posted by cabingirl at 4:08 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Clarify to my above: I also think that a lot of what's sold as "changing your emotions" is changing your reactions to them. And that can be a feedback loop. You get angry, start throwing things, you get angrier. You get angry, know that you don't want to start throwing things (because consequences) and therefore decide to do a breathing exercise, anger stays constant or dissipates.
posted by flyingfork at 4:10 AM on March 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by flyingfork at 4:10 AM on March 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Note: I know there's a lot of info in the post that people would like to respond to / chew over, but OP has emphasized that they are really looking for what this way of experiencing emotions is called, so let's stick to that going forward, please. Thanks, all.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:13 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 4:13 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Emotional dysregulation would seem to literally describe this, but in mental health treatment it actually refers to inappropriate behavior, like angry outbursts or throwing things. I had high hopes for that term when I first heard it. So unfortunately that's not it.
posted by Violet Hour at 4:14 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 4:14 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Emotional self-regulation" or "emotional awareness" might be good keywords to start from. I'm not an expert or a professional in any fields that are relevant to this question, but I know that people exist across a range of emotional capabilities, so it's both reasonable and possible that you experience frustration when dealing with the expectations of people who are on a different part of that range. You aren't necessarily making things up or just refusing to introspect better; you're just dealing with a different set of tools for life and its accompanying mental and physical responses.
rd45 mentioned "alexithymia," which is probably another useful keyword. Difficulty describing emotions or linking physical responses to emotional states is something that a lot of people experience, and it sounds like that might be part of your experience.
posted by wakannai at 4:16 AM on March 19, 2018
rd45 mentioned "alexithymia," which is probably another useful keyword. Difficulty describing emotions or linking physical responses to emotional states is something that a lot of people experience, and it sounds like that might be part of your experience.
posted by wakannai at 4:16 AM on March 19, 2018
Just to follow up, my therapist uses the term with me when I describe having an emotional reaction that is oversized for the situation, not necessarily all the way to throwing things. When I describe being unable to focus on work due to a fight with my husband she would call that dysregulated. Because my feelings are getting in the way of what I want or need to do, and I am not able to change that in the moment.
posted by cabingirl at 4:34 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cabingirl at 4:34 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's possible that there isn't a medical term that fits your condition exactly. Would you be willing to settle for something less technical but still concise, like "lack of emotional control?" Not every problem has a clinical diagnosis to go with it, but that doesn't make it any less real.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:01 AM on March 19, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:01 AM on March 19, 2018
I’m not sure what you mean by manipulate emotions, because that’s not something I’m able to do either. As mentioned above, I’ve learned to observe them, and at times to accept them, and sometimes the combination lets me watch as anger dissolves or grief discharges, etc. What I’m able to manipulate is my attention, not the emotion, and I was never able to observe any changes until I learned to accept them by observing from somewhat of a distance (via meditation, for me).
Are you able to generate emotion? Like if you have a beloved pet, or you have a cherished memory of someone you love(d), are you able to generate feelings of warmth, love and compassion by thinking of them? (Or cuddling with them)
posted by schadenfrau at 5:23 AM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Are you able to generate emotion? Like if you have a beloved pet, or you have a cherished memory of someone you love(d), are you able to generate feelings of warmth, love and compassion by thinking of them? (Or cuddling with them)
posted by schadenfrau at 5:23 AM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't experience emotions as choices, at all, ever.
I don't believe anybody else does either. Emotions just are what they are. They're not something a person can control directly by willing them to be something else.
So I'm pretty sure that the way of experiencing emotions that you've described is called "the human condition", and that the first step toward getting a grip on emotions that give you trouble has to be accepting that this is just how humans work.
What is possible is learning to choose how to behave when in the grip of any given emotion. For example, it's completely feasible to be feeling red-mist fury and still choose not to put one's fist through the wall but to go outside for a hard run up a steep hill instead.
And since internal self-talk is also a form of behaviour, it's completely feasible to learn to choose new forms of that when in the grip of any given emotion.
Moving on and letting go are not and never have been about shutting down whatever emotion one is supposed to be moving on from or letting go of. They're about noticing the emotion as an emotion, allowing it to be what it is until it changes into something else, and learning to do one's best to think in ways that give uncomfortable emotions the best chance to burn themselves out instead of keeping them stoked up and your body at boiling point.
The basis of CBT follows from the observation that some emotions arise in response to internal self-talk, and that if one learns to recognize, challenge and modify one's own internal self-talk style, one ends up experiencing a different set of emotions as a consequence. There are CBT practitioners who appear to believe that all emotions follow from internal self-talk, but I think they're fooling themselves.
When people say therapy is work I don't get that either, because I can't understand being able to work at feelings.
Working at feelings is not a thing that anybody can do. Working at noticing feelings as feelings and their associated bodily sensations, and getting better at letting them be what they are until they blow over by practising acceptance of them, is a thing that everybody can do. So is acquiring a collection of Stupid Human Tricks for doing things with one's own body that can steer its automatic responses, like the aforementioned hard run for burning off anger, or conscious controlled breathing for moderating fear and anxiety, or blocking your ears and drinking for switching off the hiccups.
Like, when someone says I am "letting" myself feel a particular way it makes as much sense to me as saying someone "lets" themselves have cancer. No one ever believes me when I say this
I absolutely believe you, for what it's worth. And I agree. You might as well claim that someone is "letting" themselves be six foot tall or "letting" themselves sweat when they're hot.
and then they get really, really blame-y (even therapists).
Problem there is shit therapists. Better ones exist.
To revisit the sweating analogy: imagine running hard in the blazing sun and sweating copiously as a result. You don't have the choice not to sweat; it's just a thing your body does. But what you can do is notice that you're currently sweaty and uncomfortable, and check your circumstances in order to find out whether continuing to run hard right now is your best option. If you're being pursued by a bear, it probably is; otherwise you could choose to stop under a shade tree, have a drink of water and wait for the sweating to stop.
Emotions are a bit like the sweating. You don't have any choice but to feel what you feel; what you feel is a direct bodily response to the circumstances you perceive yourself to be in.
But sometimes - not always, but often enough to be useful - it's feasible to alter the way you perceive your circumstances, and experience different emotional responses as a consequence. The ability to choose between different ways of understanding any given set of circumstances is possible both to learn and to improve with practice.
Does that help?
posted by flabdablet at 5:25 AM on March 19, 2018 [84 favorites]
I don't believe anybody else does either. Emotions just are what they are. They're not something a person can control directly by willing them to be something else.
So I'm pretty sure that the way of experiencing emotions that you've described is called "the human condition", and that the first step toward getting a grip on emotions that give you trouble has to be accepting that this is just how humans work.
What is possible is learning to choose how to behave when in the grip of any given emotion. For example, it's completely feasible to be feeling red-mist fury and still choose not to put one's fist through the wall but to go outside for a hard run up a steep hill instead.
And since internal self-talk is also a form of behaviour, it's completely feasible to learn to choose new forms of that when in the grip of any given emotion.
Moving on and letting go are not and never have been about shutting down whatever emotion one is supposed to be moving on from or letting go of. They're about noticing the emotion as an emotion, allowing it to be what it is until it changes into something else, and learning to do one's best to think in ways that give uncomfortable emotions the best chance to burn themselves out instead of keeping them stoked up and your body at boiling point.
The basis of CBT follows from the observation that some emotions arise in response to internal self-talk, and that if one learns to recognize, challenge and modify one's own internal self-talk style, one ends up experiencing a different set of emotions as a consequence. There are CBT practitioners who appear to believe that all emotions follow from internal self-talk, but I think they're fooling themselves.
When people say therapy is work I don't get that either, because I can't understand being able to work at feelings.
Working at feelings is not a thing that anybody can do. Working at noticing feelings as feelings and their associated bodily sensations, and getting better at letting them be what they are until they blow over by practising acceptance of them, is a thing that everybody can do. So is acquiring a collection of Stupid Human Tricks for doing things with one's own body that can steer its automatic responses, like the aforementioned hard run for burning off anger, or conscious controlled breathing for moderating fear and anxiety, or blocking your ears and drinking for switching off the hiccups.
Like, when someone says I am "letting" myself feel a particular way it makes as much sense to me as saying someone "lets" themselves have cancer. No one ever believes me when I say this
I absolutely believe you, for what it's worth. And I agree. You might as well claim that someone is "letting" themselves be six foot tall or "letting" themselves sweat when they're hot.
and then they get really, really blame-y (even therapists).
Problem there is shit therapists. Better ones exist.
To revisit the sweating analogy: imagine running hard in the blazing sun and sweating copiously as a result. You don't have the choice not to sweat; it's just a thing your body does. But what you can do is notice that you're currently sweaty and uncomfortable, and check your circumstances in order to find out whether continuing to run hard right now is your best option. If you're being pursued by a bear, it probably is; otherwise you could choose to stop under a shade tree, have a drink of water and wait for the sweating to stop.
Emotions are a bit like the sweating. You don't have any choice but to feel what you feel; what you feel is a direct bodily response to the circumstances you perceive yourself to be in.
But sometimes - not always, but often enough to be useful - it's feasible to alter the way you perceive your circumstances, and experience different emotional responses as a consequence. The ability to choose between different ways of understanding any given set of circumstances is possible both to learn and to improve with practice.
Does that help?
posted by flabdablet at 5:25 AM on March 19, 2018 [84 favorites]
I think emotional dysregulation does fit and doesn’t necessarily mean behavioral dysregulation (eg throwing things). It could maybe also be “poor distress tolerance” if you mainly notice it with negative emotions.
Definition of distress tolerance.
I don’t think anyone can control their emotions. What people can have some control over is how they react to their emotions (thoughts about the emotions, behaviors related to the emotions, and secondary feelings about the emotions). As an example, I don’t think when most people say they “let it go” that the emotion actually immediately fades. I think more often the person turns their attention away from that emotion, chooses to think about it as less important or to give it a different meaning, and behaviorally chooses not to engage with the situation anymore (not talking about it, not taking action to try to change it). As a result their secondary feeling might change, for example, from anger to regret and with time just a tinge of sadness. Their secondary affective state might change from acute distress to depression to euthymia with time.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:34 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Definition of distress tolerance.
I don’t think anyone can control their emotions. What people can have some control over is how they react to their emotions (thoughts about the emotions, behaviors related to the emotions, and secondary feelings about the emotions). As an example, I don’t think when most people say they “let it go” that the emotion actually immediately fades. I think more often the person turns their attention away from that emotion, chooses to think about it as less important or to give it a different meaning, and behaviorally chooses not to engage with the situation anymore (not talking about it, not taking action to try to change it). As a result their secondary feeling might change, for example, from anger to regret and with time just a tinge of sadness. Their secondary affective state might change from acute distress to depression to euthymia with time.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:34 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Honestly it sounds like you're describing being a human being. Everything from the blues to Buddhism to the "I need my pain" speech from Star Trek V has reflected the idea that life is full of painful emotion that can't just be switched off. But as the critic Albert Murray has said, the way is to "acknowledge that life is a low-down dirty shame yet confront that fact with perseverance, with humor, and above all, with elegance."
I wasn't a big fan of CBT either. In theory it seemed like a good idea. In practice I thought my therapist's homework assignments were sort of stupid. I switched to reading philosophy books and listening to the mindful meditation MP3s from UCLA's Hammer Center. Less about artificially changing feelings, more about finding a new perspective. I feel like it worked for me.
posted by johngoren at 5:37 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wasn't a big fan of CBT either. In theory it seemed like a good idea. In practice I thought my therapist's homework assignments were sort of stupid. I switched to reading philosophy books and listening to the mindful meditation MP3s from UCLA's Hammer Center. Less about artificially changing feelings, more about finding a new perspective. I feel like it worked for me.
posted by johngoren at 5:37 AM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Something else that might be relevant: were you by any chance subject to abuse from an early age? Childhood trauma affects brain development in ways that make it much, much harder to process strong emotions in any way other than reacting instinctively to them.
It's still completely possible to learn the skills I was on about above, but it takes a lot more work and goes a lot slower, and a therapist unfamiliar with the effects of childhood trauma might well misinterpret them as some kind of wilful unreasonableness.
If this is you, Bruce Perry is somebody whose work you'd probably find useful.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 AM on March 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
It's still completely possible to learn the skills I was on about above, but it takes a lot more work and goes a lot slower, and a therapist unfamiliar with the effects of childhood trauma might well misinterpret them as some kind of wilful unreasonableness.
If this is you, Bruce Perry is somebody whose work you'd probably find useful.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 AM on March 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
IANAT, just someone who has been through several rounds of CBT with mixed experiences. IME, CBT has it's limitations. Emotions can be intense and persistent because of physiological issues in the brain. Stock standard CBT is useful for debunking irrational beliefs and ineffective coping strategies, but it's not useful for example with an over active, malfunctioning amygdala that's sending out fear/panic/terror signals for no reason. ERP and ACT are better choices for that.
Even when we do have deeply ingrained, ineffective coping strategies, those have become deeply habitual and can take a long time to turn around. If your therapist gets frustrated and blame-y with the lack of progress and/or setbacks, those are indicators of someone who is a bad therapist. A good therapist will not only be able to give you effective practices for turning this stuff around, they will also have appropriately managed expectations for how long that process will take based on lots of experience treating your presenting issue.
posted by jazzbaby at 5:45 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Even when we do have deeply ingrained, ineffective coping strategies, those have become deeply habitual and can take a long time to turn around. If your therapist gets frustrated and blame-y with the lack of progress and/or setbacks, those are indicators of someone who is a bad therapist. A good therapist will not only be able to give you effective practices for turning this stuff around, they will also have appropriately managed expectations for how long that process will take based on lots of experience treating your presenting issue.
posted by jazzbaby at 5:45 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
ACT therapy (acceptance and commitment therapy; yes sorry it's like saying ATM machine) has a very different take on emotions - I'm new to it, but working hard at it. You welcome your emotion, observe it and what it's trying to tell you, and let yourself be with it, because it's a normal part of being a person. Not a choice whether to have it, but a choice not to fight it or struggle against it. I'm not a woo person and I'm struggling a bit with talking to myself with compassion (a bit paradoxical, but maybe part of the process), but it is helping me respond better to strong emotions.
I wonder whether you have a Named Item, or just your own way of responding, and if you'd like to change it, perhaps ACT is a way. I have a friend with aphantasia (no mental images), and he's very compassionate with others but I wonder whether he also struggles with compassion for himself - it would fit with what I know about him. VERY interesting.
posted by wellred at 5:51 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wonder whether you have a Named Item, or just your own way of responding, and if you'd like to change it, perhaps ACT is a way. I have a friend with aphantasia (no mental images), and he's very compassionate with others but I wonder whether he also struggles with compassion for himself - it would fit with what I know about him. VERY interesting.
posted by wellred at 5:51 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
On reading your post, I think the term you're looking for is "being human" (which others have mentioned above). There is a huge push these days to have people believe they "choose" to be happy or unhappy, or depressed, or angry, and unless you need to address a negative way of acting on a feeling - hitting someone over the head with a skillet whilst in the throes of rage - or are stuck in a loop with a particular type of feeling, I find this attitude can be massively counterproductive to some souls.
I know that if someone validates my feelings (rare), they can dissipate into thin air after only a few words of genuine acknowledgement, whereas if I feel that someone is judging my feelings as "wrong" or inappropriate or that I should work to "move on", it's made it a hundred times harder to deal with the feeling. Particularly if, in reverse, the proponent of that attitude would expect consolation and sympathy. Now, not alone do I have the feeling, I also have someone else's judgement of me *having* the feeling, or having it longer than they deem necessary (whereas, in reverse, I'd be thinking, "That's a completely understandable feeling to have"), and I also have resentment over a double standard.
I realise that people often argue that you can "choose" how you feel because they genuinely mean well and they believe it's empowering. There are so many things we can't control in life that people often want to emphasise that we have "more control than we think" in a situation because it feels less scary. But it's also less compassionate, and also less reflective of the human experience. You're not a robot with an an assumed defect: an inability to set your programming correctly. Your feelings are there for guidance. They are there to help you learn what you like, what bothers you, what makes you angry, what makes you sad. Would you prefer to manipulate yourself or learn about yourself? I don't doubt that staying with your feelings can sometimes be very frightening because you don't know when they'll go away, but I suspect that certain knocks will keep coming on the door until, as the Rumi poem 'The Guest House' suggests, your feelings are allowed to enter and be heard.
posted by Lilypod at 6:32 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know that if someone validates my feelings (rare), they can dissipate into thin air after only a few words of genuine acknowledgement, whereas if I feel that someone is judging my feelings as "wrong" or inappropriate or that I should work to "move on", it's made it a hundred times harder to deal with the feeling. Particularly if, in reverse, the proponent of that attitude would expect consolation and sympathy. Now, not alone do I have the feeling, I also have someone else's judgement of me *having* the feeling, or having it longer than they deem necessary (whereas, in reverse, I'd be thinking, "That's a completely understandable feeling to have"), and I also have resentment over a double standard.
I realise that people often argue that you can "choose" how you feel because they genuinely mean well and they believe it's empowering. There are so many things we can't control in life that people often want to emphasise that we have "more control than we think" in a situation because it feels less scary. But it's also less compassionate, and also less reflective of the human experience. You're not a robot with an an assumed defect: an inability to set your programming correctly. Your feelings are there for guidance. They are there to help you learn what you like, what bothers you, what makes you angry, what makes you sad. Would you prefer to manipulate yourself or learn about yourself? I don't doubt that staying with your feelings can sometimes be very frightening because you don't know when they'll go away, but I suspect that certain knocks will keep coming on the door until, as the Rumi poem 'The Guest House' suggests, your feelings are allowed to enter and be heard.
posted by Lilypod at 6:32 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
> Emotional dysregulation would seem to literally describe this, but in mental health treatment it actually refers to inappropriate behavior, like angry outbursts or throwing things.
Wait, so your emotions are NOT making you act out in undesirable ways?
So what is the problem, exactly? Is it that you think you shouldn't be feeling the way you do - like, you are having X feeling in response to a situation but you'd rather be feeling Y because it's the "better" way to feel? If so, welcome to the human race, my friend, we are all doomed. :) The answer to your question is, indeed, "being human."
Telling ourselves that our feelings are "wrong" breeds shame and depression. A much better goal is to accept all of our feelings and control our behavior.
posted by MiraK at 6:41 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wait, so your emotions are NOT making you act out in undesirable ways?
So what is the problem, exactly? Is it that you think you shouldn't be feeling the way you do - like, you are having X feeling in response to a situation but you'd rather be feeling Y because it's the "better" way to feel? If so, welcome to the human race, my friend, we are all doomed. :) The answer to your question is, indeed, "being human."
Telling ourselves that our feelings are "wrong" breeds shame and depression. A much better goal is to accept all of our feelings and control our behavior.
posted by MiraK at 6:41 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nobody experiences emotions as choices. I think you will have difficulty finding a name for this because it's how everyone is. One thing that comes up again and again and again in literature about personality disorders is that you cannot choose your emotions, but you can choose how to behave. The concepts of "moving on" and "letting go" refer to behavior. Forgiveness and acceptance are acts, not emotions.
Working at feelings means working towards understanding why you feel the way you do, what emotions you are experiencing, and what causes you to respond with certain emotions. This can be a lot of work because it's not always obvious and requires a lot of self-awareness. If someone spills a glass of water and the emotion you feel in response is anger, and you're so angry that you can't imagine forgiving that person, and every time you think about how they spilled water you still get angry, then it's not just as simple as spilled water made you mad. It's looking at why you'd get so angry over spilled water. That can take years to figure out. I guess in this instance the "letting go" comes from resolving the larger issues around a seemingly disproportionate emotional response to something. But if your emotional responses aren't disproportionate, there's nothing to work out there. It's okay to not want to forgive someone who grievously harmed you.
posted by Polychrome at 6:58 AM on March 19, 2018 [13 favorites]
Working at feelings means working towards understanding why you feel the way you do, what emotions you are experiencing, and what causes you to respond with certain emotions. This can be a lot of work because it's not always obvious and requires a lot of self-awareness. If someone spills a glass of water and the emotion you feel in response is anger, and you're so angry that you can't imagine forgiving that person, and every time you think about how they spilled water you still get angry, then it's not just as simple as spilled water made you mad. It's looking at why you'd get so angry over spilled water. That can take years to figure out. I guess in this instance the "letting go" comes from resolving the larger issues around a seemingly disproportionate emotional response to something. But if your emotional responses aren't disproportionate, there's nothing to work out there. It's okay to not want to forgive someone who grievously harmed you.
posted by Polychrome at 6:58 AM on March 19, 2018 [13 favorites]
It might be helpful to look at developmental psych literature about emotional regulation, because this does sound like that, even if the therapists you've seen have focused more on the anger-management side of emotional disregulation (I'm thinking that developmental psych might be more helpful as it's showing how humans develop a whole suite of skills for a whole suite of emotional states, which seems to be more what you're talking about.).
As folks have said upthread there is definitely a line between "stop having this emotion" and "stop performing this behavior, which you are performing as a result of this emotion." Self-soothing behaviors, for me, don't change my emotions about the situation at hand, but they do affect my breathing rate and blood pressure and make me more able to cope with a situation in spite of being frightened/sad/angry/bored/whatever.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:14 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
As folks have said upthread there is definitely a line between "stop having this emotion" and "stop performing this behavior, which you are performing as a result of this emotion." Self-soothing behaviors, for me, don't change my emotions about the situation at hand, but they do affect my breathing rate and blood pressure and make me more able to cope with a situation in spite of being frightened/sad/angry/bored/whatever.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:14 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why would you want to manipulate your emotions?
If there is an occasion in which you do, there is an internal conflict. Part of you feels X and another part feels "I reject X," or "I don't like feeling X," or "it's inconvenient to feel X right now," or "I must be a bad person to feel X," or "there's something wrong with me that I feel X," or "so and so won't like me if I feel X." It can even be as complicated as, "If I feel X, I have to do Y or else I'm a Z, but if I 'm scared to do Y and besides V will hate me and W will fire me from my job and then I'll die." To make it worse, some of these feelings won't be conscious, or can't be put into words, or are themselves inconvenient or embarrassing or opposed by still further conflict.
The work of therapy is to sort though and negotiate these conflicts and the varying brands of therapies do it differently. Some will emphasize making parts of the conflict conscious and/or putting them into words. Some will try to explore the history of the conflicts and how what made sense at one time now looks different. Some will challenge beliefs, such as "V may get angry but is unlikely to stop loving you" or "It won't make you a Z not to do Y," or "what you're calling a Z is actually a good thing to be." or "You can feel X and not do Y." Some brands of therapy will try and have the different parts of the conflict negotiate with each other.
Phrases like "letting go" or "moving on" only make sense if there's a part of you that finds that convincing. If you've been told to let things go because your feelings aren't taken seriously, you'll just feel dismissed or cheated or worse, you pretend to let go, or worse still, attempt to fool yourself that you've let go.
A therapeutic relationship is one in which you feel safe enough explore these possibilities. Often most of the "work" is just getting to the point where you're feeling sufficiently safe before trying anything more complicated. Often one of the conflicts is "how can I feel safe with this person who charges me so much, or who earlier said [insert obnoxious statement] or who looks lie so an so. And those feelings may need to be made conscious or formulated as well.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:18 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
If there is an occasion in which you do, there is an internal conflict. Part of you feels X and another part feels "I reject X," or "I don't like feeling X," or "it's inconvenient to feel X right now," or "I must be a bad person to feel X," or "there's something wrong with me that I feel X," or "so and so won't like me if I feel X." It can even be as complicated as, "If I feel X, I have to do Y or else I'm a Z, but if I 'm scared to do Y and besides V will hate me and W will fire me from my job and then I'll die." To make it worse, some of these feelings won't be conscious, or can't be put into words, or are themselves inconvenient or embarrassing or opposed by still further conflict.
The work of therapy is to sort though and negotiate these conflicts and the varying brands of therapies do it differently. Some will emphasize making parts of the conflict conscious and/or putting them into words. Some will try to explore the history of the conflicts and how what made sense at one time now looks different. Some will challenge beliefs, such as "V may get angry but is unlikely to stop loving you" or "It won't make you a Z not to do Y," or "what you're calling a Z is actually a good thing to be." or "You can feel X and not do Y." Some brands of therapy will try and have the different parts of the conflict negotiate with each other.
Phrases like "letting go" or "moving on" only make sense if there's a part of you that finds that convincing. If you've been told to let things go because your feelings aren't taken seriously, you'll just feel dismissed or cheated or worse, you pretend to let go, or worse still, attempt to fool yourself that you've let go.
A therapeutic relationship is one in which you feel safe enough explore these possibilities. Often most of the "work" is just getting to the point where you're feeling sufficiently safe before trying anything more complicated. Often one of the conflicts is "how can I feel safe with this person who charges me so much, or who earlier said [insert obnoxious statement] or who looks lie so an so. And those feelings may need to be made conscious or formulated as well.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:18 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Have you done any guided meditations, like working your way through the Headspace app? I ask because while I can't think of a single phrase they use to describe what you're talking about, it does seem to me that the premise is the same: that trying to manipulate, squish down, or otherwise control emotions is impossible and counterproductive -- the more you try to actively wrestle with them, the stronger they become. (This is also my experience.)
Rather, the goal is to, essentially, carve out a tiny space of yourself that is separate enough from your emotions that you can observe them, as though from the outside, rather than being fully identified with them. It's like building a tiny shelter from which you can watch the storm rage, and stay safe until it passes. This is a long process and you can't skip ahead to just doing it immediately while you're in the grip of a strong emotion.
I do think now, after five years of a meditation practice, I am better at "letting things go" - by which I mean allowing my anger, anxiety, etc. to pass through me, without engaging in the kind of habits - ruminating, catastrophizing, etc. - that tended to amplify them and make them more painful. The emotions still come; they are still beyond my control, but I recognize that there are things that are in my control that can lessen my suffering in the moment. That recognition, though - that little bit of distance between Me and The Feelings - that's the result of the five years of meditation. If someone had tried to tell me, at the beginning, to "Just let the emotions pass through you without being identified with them," it would have been like telling someone who'd never weightlifted before just to benchpress five hundred pounds. Letting go is the end, not the beginning.
There's a line in my more advanced meditation that is: I am not my thoughts and feelings. Now I find that soothing; if I'd heard it at the beginning, I would have been like: that's some goddamn bullshit; if I'm not my thoughts and feelings, what am I? I guess maybe the way I would describe the way I was before I started meditation would be, I was fully identified with my feelings. I didn't have any distance on them. Maybe that's true for you, too?
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:26 AM on March 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
Rather, the goal is to, essentially, carve out a tiny space of yourself that is separate enough from your emotions that you can observe them, as though from the outside, rather than being fully identified with them. It's like building a tiny shelter from which you can watch the storm rage, and stay safe until it passes. This is a long process and you can't skip ahead to just doing it immediately while you're in the grip of a strong emotion.
I do think now, after five years of a meditation practice, I am better at "letting things go" - by which I mean allowing my anger, anxiety, etc. to pass through me, without engaging in the kind of habits - ruminating, catastrophizing, etc. - that tended to amplify them and make them more painful. The emotions still come; they are still beyond my control, but I recognize that there are things that are in my control that can lessen my suffering in the moment. That recognition, though - that little bit of distance between Me and The Feelings - that's the result of the five years of meditation. If someone had tried to tell me, at the beginning, to "Just let the emotions pass through you without being identified with them," it would have been like telling someone who'd never weightlifted before just to benchpress five hundred pounds. Letting go is the end, not the beginning.
There's a line in my more advanced meditation that is: I am not my thoughts and feelings. Now I find that soothing; if I'd heard it at the beginning, I would have been like: that's some goddamn bullshit; if I'm not my thoughts and feelings, what am I? I guess maybe the way I would describe the way I was before I started meditation would be, I was fully identified with my feelings. I didn't have any distance on them. Maybe that's true for you, too?
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:26 AM on March 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
The physical manifestation of certain emotions (heart rate, shaking, adrenaline) can be controlled through a few different physical/mental practices; this is what lots of people think of as controlling their emotions, though I don't and you may not. but in this way, I could say that although I'm still angry about something if you ask me to describe my position, I don't 'feel' angry at the moment. but it's not like choosing to stop being angry, more like choosing to forget about it the way you can choose to forget where you put your keys if you carefully occupy your mind with other things at the right time.
most of what people call emotional control is a combination of intellectual decision (this person doesn't merit a grudge, so I will act as though I have forgiven them, though I don't "feel" forgiving) and deliberate self-distraction (I don't turn off an emotion, I just make it impossible for myself to maintain awareness of it with other stimuli. so, I haven't stopped being unhappy, but I'm so tired I can't remember it all the time). this could be a source of some communication difficulties with therapists? because they are as a rule not too clear about the difference between thought and emotion -- like everybody else -- but often think they are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
most of what people call emotional control is a combination of intellectual decision (this person doesn't merit a grudge, so I will act as though I have forgiven them, though I don't "feel" forgiving) and deliberate self-distraction (I don't turn off an emotion, I just make it impossible for myself to maintain awareness of it with other stimuli. so, I haven't stopped being unhappy, but I'm so tired I can't remember it all the time). this could be a source of some communication difficulties with therapists? because they are as a rule not too clear about the difference between thought and emotion -- like everybody else -- but often think they are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
My initial response is "emotional dysregulation" too.
I have a student who had a neglectful, abusive childhood. She has grown up thinking in maladaptive ways, by which I mean she wants to accomplish certain things, but her thinking patterns sabotage that. Lately she has managed to identify when she's thinking in maladaptive ways ("I'm stupid" or "I'll never understand this") and then change her inner monologue to acknowledge that she's feeling frustrated but to find a different thing to do than what she normally would do--cry, stare paralyzed into space ruminating on potential failure, storm out of class. She still feels the frustration and anxiety--she just does something different than usual, and it allows her to accomplish her work, which is her goal. The goal isn't to stop feeling frustrated (at least not for now), it's to manage the frustration so it doesn't paralyze her during class time.
She's not trying to prevent the feeling; she's trying to stop the feeling from preventing positive behaviours. She's learning she can still do the behaviours she needs to do, even though she feels the feeling.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:39 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have a student who had a neglectful, abusive childhood. She has grown up thinking in maladaptive ways, by which I mean she wants to accomplish certain things, but her thinking patterns sabotage that. Lately she has managed to identify when she's thinking in maladaptive ways ("I'm stupid" or "I'll never understand this") and then change her inner monologue to acknowledge that she's feeling frustrated but to find a different thing to do than what she normally would do--cry, stare paralyzed into space ruminating on potential failure, storm out of class. She still feels the frustration and anxiety--she just does something different than usual, and it allows her to accomplish her work, which is her goal. The goal isn't to stop feeling frustrated (at least not for now), it's to manage the frustration so it doesn't paralyze her during class time.
She's not trying to prevent the feeling; she's trying to stop the feeling from preventing positive behaviours. She's learning she can still do the behaviours she needs to do, even though she feels the feeling.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:39 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Acknowledging your emotions doesn’t mean that those emotions have to dictate your actions. You can feel sad, but still do the stuff you have to do. You can be angry at someone and yet not bang your fists against his door or his face. You can choose to channel that energy into a productive action.
I read and have recommended Constructive Living .
posted by Ideefixe at 7:43 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I read and have recommended Constructive Living .
posted by Ideefixe at 7:43 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Because my feelings are getting in the way of what I want or need to do, and I am not able to change that in the moment.
This may be the knot you want to untangle, OP. I think the term that I use to describe this is "mind/body awareness" that is, emotions are just what you have, they are there, they come and go, they are strong and weak. However, we are not, do not have to be, in thrall to them. What we can choose is the way we react, sort of. Different people have differing abilities to manipulate the extent to which they have space between how they are feeling in their mind, and what their body does. My mother always used to talk about this, how for her, there wasn't space between feeling angry and acting angrily. For me, they are different things. We had a hard time understanding each other.
posted by jessamyn at 8:33 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
This may be the knot you want to untangle, OP. I think the term that I use to describe this is "mind/body awareness" that is, emotions are just what you have, they are there, they come and go, they are strong and weak. However, we are not, do not have to be, in thrall to them. What we can choose is the way we react, sort of. Different people have differing abilities to manipulate the extent to which they have space between how they are feeling in their mind, and what their body does. My mother always used to talk about this, how for her, there wasn't space between feeling angry and acting angrily. For me, they are different things. We had a hard time understanding each other.
posted by jessamyn at 8:33 AM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
My mother always used to talk about this, how for her, there wasn't space between feeling angry and acting angrily.
In my experience, it takes a fair bit of work to open that space. Some of us choose to take it seriously as a task, and do that work; others just declare it a stupid woo idea and/or obviously impossible, and don't.
But I have never met a person who has spent more than a few hours working seriously toward creating that space without being able to open it at least a little bit.
posted by flabdablet at 8:49 AM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
In my experience, it takes a fair bit of work to open that space. Some of us choose to take it seriously as a task, and do that work; others just declare it a stupid woo idea and/or obviously impossible, and don't.
But I have never met a person who has spent more than a few hours working seriously toward creating that space without being able to open it at least a little bit.
posted by flabdablet at 8:49 AM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Your description made me think of emotional reactivity, and you may want to look into EMDR.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:40 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:40 AM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I find myself agreeing strongly with you that this varies from person to person, because I find the people telling you this is just "the human condition" kind of incomprehensible.
Like, sure, I'm angry at that guy who over promised to the customer, but if I just sit with the feeling and look beyond it I might see that I'm actually/also scared to lose the customer relationship, or disappointed about not being able to solve a problem I think I "should" have control over, or worried that my family will get mad at me for having to work overtime. And if I listen to that feeling with compassion and give myself a little mental breathing space, I might notice the sunset from my office window is beautiful, and my cup of tea is pleasant, and I can step outside for a moment to enjoy the air and re-center before I go back in to finish the project. (And maybe I'm still feeling some anger if I think about that guy, but at least I'm no longer obsessing about it and wasting time unable to focus.)
So to me the experience of emotions is very flexible and cognitive. On steroids for a medical issue I was a Rage Machine, so you could have a different adrenal baseline as mentioned above - but even then I could observe "hey, this reaction I'm having is WAY out of proportion" and that kept it from escalating too much. I'm sorry I don't have a word for you (though mindfulness/meditation seem potentially useful), but wanted to give a counterpoint to the people telling you everyone feels that way.
posted by Lady Li at 11:59 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Like, sure, I'm angry at that guy who over promised to the customer, but if I just sit with the feeling and look beyond it I might see that I'm actually/also scared to lose the customer relationship, or disappointed about not being able to solve a problem I think I "should" have control over, or worried that my family will get mad at me for having to work overtime. And if I listen to that feeling with compassion and give myself a little mental breathing space, I might notice the sunset from my office window is beautiful, and my cup of tea is pleasant, and I can step outside for a moment to enjoy the air and re-center before I go back in to finish the project. (And maybe I'm still feeling some anger if I think about that guy, but at least I'm no longer obsessing about it and wasting time unable to focus.)
So to me the experience of emotions is very flexible and cognitive. On steroids for a medical issue I was a Rage Machine, so you could have a different adrenal baseline as mentioned above - but even then I could observe "hey, this reaction I'm having is WAY out of proportion" and that kept it from escalating too much. I'm sorry I don't have a word for you (though mindfulness/meditation seem potentially useful), but wanted to give a counterpoint to the people telling you everyone feels that way.
posted by Lady Li at 11:59 AM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Honestly it seems like the name for what you're dealing with is "overly literal interpreter." All of the ways of framing and dealing with emotions that you find baffling and impenetrable are metaphors and analogies for an internal process that does not actually lend itself well to literal, concrete description.
Nobody literally "lets go" of an emotion; they undergo an internal process in which the causes and circumstances of that emotion are either understood, changed, or validated in such a way that the emotion loses its punch. Emotionally, this process can often produce a feeling much like "release" or "relief," and I think that's why the term "letting go" feels like an accurate metaphor for many.
If you can approach therapists with something like: "I don't do well with metaphors for all of these thought processes. I need you to speak in much more concrete terms" and then piping up with a reiteration of same whenever the therapist says something about "letting go" or "holding on," they might be able to land on some more helpful approaches.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:07 PM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Nobody literally "lets go" of an emotion; they undergo an internal process in which the causes and circumstances of that emotion are either understood, changed, or validated in such a way that the emotion loses its punch. Emotionally, this process can often produce a feeling much like "release" or "relief," and I think that's why the term "letting go" feels like an accurate metaphor for many.
If you can approach therapists with something like: "I don't do well with metaphors for all of these thought processes. I need you to speak in much more concrete terms" and then piping up with a reiteration of same whenever the therapist says something about "letting go" or "holding on," they might be able to land on some more helpful approaches.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:07 PM on March 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
"'Because my feelings are getting in the way of what I want or need to do, and I am not able to change that in the moment.' This may be the knot you want to untangle, OP. "
I don't think the first sentence is in the original post, but I do think it's the crux of the issue. If the OP is satisfied her emotions are valid, then there shouldn't be a need to manipulate them or feel differently. If the emotions are interfering with what she wants to achieve, however, then there is a problem. From my own experience, if your emotions or feelings are repeatedly invalidated or dismissed, being able to self-calm and gain perspective in the manner that Lady Li describes above is much more difficult. If, after such a history, you yourself try to dismiss or hurry past your emotional turbulence then - whoa, Nelly! The psyche liketh it not.
If the OP wants to manage emotions, the direction needs to be genuinely internal in source and not external. In the original post, all the direction as to what the poster should do with her feelings comes from other people, even if she's chosen to explore the issue with them (therapists, friends). This is understandable because it's practical in nature, but it may miss the issue of someone starting from a position of insecurity that to others is genuinely incomprehensible. There are all kinds of reasons, buried in the past, as to why someone may desperately first need to hear their feelings matter before any action can be taken.
'Constructive Living' is a book that also came to my mind on reading this thread but, on reflection, I remembered finding it a bit of an anti-climax, despite it being a decent read. But the posts also then reminded me of E. F. Schumacher's 'A Guide for the Perplexed' which somehow says the same thing but in a manner that actually enabled me (at least) to hear the message unfettered. A sample: "When [my attention] is so captured [by outside forces], I function very much like a machine; I am not doing things: they simply happen. All the time there is, however, the possibility that I might take the matter in hand and, quite freely and deliberately direct my attention to something entirely of my own choosing, something that does not capture me but is to be captured by me. The difference between directed and captured attention is the same as the difference between doing things and letting things take their course, or between living and 'being lived'."
The reason Schumacher works for me is that it's entirely left up to me where I direct my attention. There's not a suggestion I'm doing it wrong, or that I have to let go or move on or forgive. If I have a frustration, it can be captured by me for a while, and somehow that implicit permission is the magic recipe for then being able to put it aside later if I wish.
posted by Lilypod at 1:26 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't think the first sentence is in the original post, but I do think it's the crux of the issue. If the OP is satisfied her emotions are valid, then there shouldn't be a need to manipulate them or feel differently. If the emotions are interfering with what she wants to achieve, however, then there is a problem. From my own experience, if your emotions or feelings are repeatedly invalidated or dismissed, being able to self-calm and gain perspective in the manner that Lady Li describes above is much more difficult. If, after such a history, you yourself try to dismiss or hurry past your emotional turbulence then - whoa, Nelly! The psyche liketh it not.
If the OP wants to manage emotions, the direction needs to be genuinely internal in source and not external. In the original post, all the direction as to what the poster should do with her feelings comes from other people, even if she's chosen to explore the issue with them (therapists, friends). This is understandable because it's practical in nature, but it may miss the issue of someone starting from a position of insecurity that to others is genuinely incomprehensible. There are all kinds of reasons, buried in the past, as to why someone may desperately first need to hear their feelings matter before any action can be taken.
'Constructive Living' is a book that also came to my mind on reading this thread but, on reflection, I remembered finding it a bit of an anti-climax, despite it being a decent read. But the posts also then reminded me of E. F. Schumacher's 'A Guide for the Perplexed' which somehow says the same thing but in a manner that actually enabled me (at least) to hear the message unfettered. A sample: "When [my attention] is so captured [by outside forces], I function very much like a machine; I am not doing things: they simply happen. All the time there is, however, the possibility that I might take the matter in hand and, quite freely and deliberately direct my attention to something entirely of my own choosing, something that does not capture me but is to be captured by me. The difference between directed and captured attention is the same as the difference between doing things and letting things take their course, or between living and 'being lived'."
The reason Schumacher works for me is that it's entirely left up to me where I direct my attention. There's not a suggestion I'm doing it wrong, or that I have to let go or move on or forgive. If I have a frustration, it can be captured by me for a while, and somehow that implicit permission is the magic recipe for then being able to put it aside later if I wish.
posted by Lilypod at 1:26 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
This reminds me a bit of the behavior described on this website on estranged parents' forums, namely in the belief that emotion creates reality:
For me, the first step in breaking apart these beliefs was to learn to accurately name all my emotions, in many contexts--especially and explicitly settings where I was afraid, angry, or frustrated. Because I hadn't been able to name those emotions accurately with my family of origin, I often engaged in behavior that was self-destructive or unhealthy. Later, fear or anger would flare up at inappropriate times--in safe contexts, but in response to small annoyances (suddenly, I'd be enraged at the check out cashier, or a friend, and not really understand my own intensity of emotion). It's going to sound ridiculous, but a big, big help with this was watching a ton of the show Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood with my now-4 year old. It's a show patterned on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, and is about teaching pre-schoolers emotional regulation and coping mechanisms. But it was unbelievably helpful both to have the short songs to reference ("When you feel jealous, talk about it and we'll figure something out") and also to see what normal and deeply supportive parents look like in response to childrens' emotions. I can now see that my lack of emotional vocabulary was built in direct response to the way my parents' treated my feelings.
Feelings don't create reality. But they're also real--the synapses firing in your brain aren't made up! Still, in CBT, DBT, and similar therapeutic models, you're not trying to change the feelings but rather acknowledge the feelings and then change your behavioral responses. Some of the behaviors that you change might be to speak your feelings earlier, so they don't spill out inappropriately in other contexts, or to avoid spaces or forums where you feel unsafe. When you force yourself to ignore those feelings, they've got to go somewhere eventually.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:58 PM on March 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
The difference isn't a matter of style, it's a split between two ways of perceiving the world. In one worldview, emotion is king. Details exist to support emotion. If a member gives one set of details to describe how angry she is about a past event, and a few days later gives a contradictory set of details to describe how sad she is about the same event, both versions are legitimate because both emotions are legitimate.I grew up in a household with the type of parent described on this site. When I was a kid, my emotions were out of control and scary and I certainly felt held captive by them. This was largely because I'd been taught to minimize or deny my emotions in many contexts and while I knew that some emotional reactions (violence, for example) were "bad," I couldn't accurately name my emotions for fear of reproach, much less make smart choices about what to do with them. I was also deeply anxious, and so often had intrusive thoughts (fear of death was a big one).
Context is malleable because the full picture may not support the member's emotion. If a member adds details that undermine her emotion, the other members considerately ignore them. For example, one woman posted that she felt wounded and betrayed because a few days beforehand, her daughter had agreed to let the mother and one of the mother's friends drop by her house to visit. On the day of the visit, the daughter said she wasn't up for a visit. She had gone to the doctor so the doctor could examine her incision for infection. She had gotten the incision two weeks earlier, when she had a C-section while miscarrying a near-term baby the day before Christmas. The mother was broken because her daughter accused her of being selfish. The members all agreed that the daughter was the selfish one, that she had no right to speak to her mother like that, and that she should be more supportive of her mother in her mother's grief for her lost grandchild.
Emotion creates reality.
In the second worldview, reality creates emotion. Members want the full picture so they can decide whether the poster's emotions are justified. Small details can change the entire tenor of a forum's response; members see a distinction between "She said I'm worthless" and "She said something that made me feel worthless." Members recognize that unjustified emotions (like supersensitivity due to trauma, or irritation with another person that colors the view of everything the person does) are real and deserve respect, but they also believe that unjustified emotions shouldn't be acted on. They show posters different ways to view the situation and give advice on how to handle the emotions. In short, they believe that external events create emotional responses, that only some responses are justified, that people's initial perceptions of events are often flawed, and that understanding external events can help people understand and manage emotions.
The first viewpoint, "emotion creates reality," is truth for a great many people. Not a healthy truth, not a truth that promotes good relationships, but a deep, lived truth nonetheless. It's seductive. It means that whatever you're feeling is just and right, that you're never in the wrong unless you feel you're in the wrong. For people whose self-image is so battered and fragile that they can't bear anything but validation, often it feels like the only way they can face the world.
For me, the first step in breaking apart these beliefs was to learn to accurately name all my emotions, in many contexts--especially and explicitly settings where I was afraid, angry, or frustrated. Because I hadn't been able to name those emotions accurately with my family of origin, I often engaged in behavior that was self-destructive or unhealthy. Later, fear or anger would flare up at inappropriate times--in safe contexts, but in response to small annoyances (suddenly, I'd be enraged at the check out cashier, or a friend, and not really understand my own intensity of emotion). It's going to sound ridiculous, but a big, big help with this was watching a ton of the show Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood with my now-4 year old. It's a show patterned on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, and is about teaching pre-schoolers emotional regulation and coping mechanisms. But it was unbelievably helpful both to have the short songs to reference ("When you feel jealous, talk about it and we'll figure something out") and also to see what normal and deeply supportive parents look like in response to childrens' emotions. I can now see that my lack of emotional vocabulary was built in direct response to the way my parents' treated my feelings.
Feelings don't create reality. But they're also real--the synapses firing in your brain aren't made up! Still, in CBT, DBT, and similar therapeutic models, you're not trying to change the feelings but rather acknowledge the feelings and then change your behavioral responses. Some of the behaviors that you change might be to speak your feelings earlier, so they don't spill out inappropriately in other contexts, or to avoid spaces or forums where you feel unsafe. When you force yourself to ignore those feelings, they've got to go somewhere eventually.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:58 PM on March 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: Ugh, so this is so, so frustrating because apparently no matter how clear I think I'm being it still doesn't get through to people.
Nobody literally "lets go" of an emotion; they undergo an internal process in which the causes and circumstances of that emotion are either understood, changed, or validated in such a way that the emotion loses its punch.
What I mean is that this doesn't happen for me, ever, and never has my whole life. Things like meditation are not at all appropriate and don't work, and "Constructive Living" is more or less EXACTLY what I cannot do. It's definitely not just "the human condition,"--if it were this wouldn't be so hard to get people to understand, and CBT (and ACT, which is derived from it) wouldn't exist at all, and mental health treatment would be completely different.
I'm not talking about behaviors in this question at all.
posted by Violet Hour at 2:59 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Nobody literally "lets go" of an emotion; they undergo an internal process in which the causes and circumstances of that emotion are either understood, changed, or validated in such a way that the emotion loses its punch.
What I mean is that this doesn't happen for me, ever, and never has my whole life. Things like meditation are not at all appropriate and don't work, and "Constructive Living" is more or less EXACTLY what I cannot do. It's definitely not just "the human condition,"--if it were this wouldn't be so hard to get people to understand, and CBT (and ACT, which is derived from it) wouldn't exist at all, and mental health treatment would be completely different.
I'm not talking about behaviors in this question at all.
posted by Violet Hour at 2:59 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm not talking about behaviors in this question at all.
I suspect the lack of understanding is coming about because therapists are talking about changing behaviors. You're not unique in that your feelings can't magically be changed. But you can change behavior so that your brain and body are exposed to different stimuli and so that you form healthier patterns of interaction with other people. For me, when someone says "you need to let go of your anger," I understand that to mean "You need to stop centering your anger in your behaviors and choose other options rather than simply talking about it." However, a big part of my current therapeutic relationship being effective is that my therapist understands I've been taught to minimize "negative" feelings, and he'll tell me to "take a few days to just be really, really sad" or whatever by which he means, it's okay to act like a sad sack and cry randomly at times. He understands that if I'm feeling sad, the sadness will be there either way--my choice is how I frame these feelings and how I choose to act around them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I suspect the lack of understanding is coming about because therapists are talking about changing behaviors. You're not unique in that your feelings can't magically be changed. But you can change behavior so that your brain and body are exposed to different stimuli and so that you form healthier patterns of interaction with other people. For me, when someone says "you need to let go of your anger," I understand that to mean "You need to stop centering your anger in your behaviors and choose other options rather than simply talking about it." However, a big part of my current therapeutic relationship being effective is that my therapist understands I've been taught to minimize "negative" feelings, and he'll tell me to "take a few days to just be really, really sad" or whatever by which he means, it's okay to act like a sad sack and cry randomly at times. He understands that if I'm feeling sad, the sadness will be there either way--my choice is how I frame these feelings and how I choose to act around them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Things like meditation are not at all appropriate and don't work
In my experience, people who have tried meditation and concluded that it "doesn't work" have been those who use it reactively: I'm really upset and overwhelmed right now, they say meditation is good so OK, I'll sit and do nothing for ten minutes just like they say to do.
So now it's ten minutes later and I'm still fucking furious, in fact I'm even more pissed off because there's ten minutes I'll never get back, just wasted on a bunch of stupid useless fucking woo that I should never have let myself be talked into and how the fuck is just doing nothing supposed to help anyway, fucking unscientific internet hippie wankers.
And indeed meditation is not appropriate and doesn't work when used in response to stress. If the only time you attempt to practise is when you feel overwhelmed by some emotion you'd rather you weren't being overwhelmed by, you'll get nothing from it at all.
The analogy with exercise is pretty good. If the only time any of us did any exercise was right after finding ourselves physically overwhelmed due to lack of strength or endurance, exercise wouldn't work either.
this doesn't happen for me, ever, and never has my whole life.
So you're reading what I've been writing, and I'm clearly pushing back some at you, and so has every other asshole you've ever tried to get to understand what you're talking about when it comes to emotions, and that's annoying as hell, so I expect you're feeling a certain amount of frustration and irritation right now.
What do you feel when you look at this instead?
Take detailed notes.
posted by flabdablet at 5:03 PM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
In my experience, people who have tried meditation and concluded that it "doesn't work" have been those who use it reactively: I'm really upset and overwhelmed right now, they say meditation is good so OK, I'll sit and do nothing for ten minutes just like they say to do.
So now it's ten minutes later and I'm still fucking furious, in fact I'm even more pissed off because there's ten minutes I'll never get back, just wasted on a bunch of stupid useless fucking woo that I should never have let myself be talked into and how the fuck is just doing nothing supposed to help anyway, fucking unscientific internet hippie wankers.
And indeed meditation is not appropriate and doesn't work when used in response to stress. If the only time you attempt to practise is when you feel overwhelmed by some emotion you'd rather you weren't being overwhelmed by, you'll get nothing from it at all.
The analogy with exercise is pretty good. If the only time any of us did any exercise was right after finding ourselves physically overwhelmed due to lack of strength or endurance, exercise wouldn't work either.
this doesn't happen for me, ever, and never has my whole life.
So you're reading what I've been writing, and I'm clearly pushing back some at you, and so has every other asshole you've ever tried to get to understand what you're talking about when it comes to emotions, and that's annoying as hell, so I expect you're feeling a certain amount of frustration and irritation right now.
What do you feel when you look at this instead?
Take detailed notes.
posted by flabdablet at 5:03 PM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
What I mean is that this doesn't happen for me, ever, and never has my whole life.
Oh, ok. I totally get that -- it doesn't typically happen for me, either. I once described it to someone as the emotional equivalent of hemophilia; if you cut me, emotionally, I never ever ever ever stop bleeding. If it's a small enough cut it might slow down to a trickle after awhile, and maybe even scab a bit.
It also applies to positive feelings, FWIW; if I had a crush on someone in 5th grade I basically still do have a crush on them now. This makes breakups extra hard since I neither stop loving the person OR stop being fucking furious with them, lol.
My therapists have pretty much universally put this under the umbrella of severe depression (rumination variety) and emotional dysregulation even though, like you, my dysregulation does not usually result in inappropriate (aggressive, histrionic) behavior.
Coming fully to grips with the metaphors of processing emotions has still helped, tbh. Even if I can't actually DO the process I am less enraged due to understanding what exactly a therapist (or my mom) is asking of me.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:12 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, ok. I totally get that -- it doesn't typically happen for me, either. I once described it to someone as the emotional equivalent of hemophilia; if you cut me, emotionally, I never ever ever ever stop bleeding. If it's a small enough cut it might slow down to a trickle after awhile, and maybe even scab a bit.
It also applies to positive feelings, FWIW; if I had a crush on someone in 5th grade I basically still do have a crush on them now. This makes breakups extra hard since I neither stop loving the person OR stop being fucking furious with them, lol.
My therapists have pretty much universally put this under the umbrella of severe depression (rumination variety) and emotional dysregulation even though, like you, my dysregulation does not usually result in inappropriate (aggressive, histrionic) behavior.
Coming fully to grips with the metaphors of processing emotions has still helped, tbh. Even if I can't actually DO the process I am less enraged due to understanding what exactly a therapist (or my mom) is asking of me.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:12 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
OP, can you tell us more about what it is like for you? What your daily experience of emotion is? Or in response to stress?
posted by schadenfrau at 5:22 PM on March 19, 2018
posted by schadenfrau at 5:22 PM on March 19, 2018
In my experience, some people experience emotions more intensely; I would call it emotional volatility. It's easier to manage less intense emotion. I have learned to tolerate intense emotion better.
Behavior affects emotion and vice versa. You can develop behavioral habits that help manage emotion. Anxiety is responsive to a number of physical things.
A different approach is Morita therapy; you might find it interesting. It focuses on behavior.
posted by theora55 at 5:34 PM on March 19, 2018
Behavior affects emotion and vice versa. You can develop behavioral habits that help manage emotion. Anxiety is responsive to a number of physical things.
A different approach is Morita therapy; you might find it interesting. It focuses on behavior.
posted by theora55 at 5:34 PM on March 19, 2018
I once described it to someone as the emotional equivalent of hemophilia; if you cut me, emotionally, I never ever ever ever stop bleeding.
I'm going with the working assumption that the bleeding does in fact stop temporarily for as long as your attention can remain directed somewhere other than toward the cause of it, because that's my current best understanding of how human brains work and I believe you have one.
If that's true, then what you're describing sounds to me like having an unusually clear and detailed memory for emotions, such that recalling any given event will also cause re-experiencing the emotions originally associated with it, in great detail and at full strength.
For some people, this only happens when the event concerned is horribly traumatic and in that case the phenomenon is called PTSD. But human variability being what it is, I'd guess that the kind of brain workings that support PTSD might also manifest more generally in some people, and that you and Violet Hour might be such people.
Successful treatment for PTSD involves practices designed specifically to hook new emotions onto the recall of traumatic events. If my guess is right, then researching those techniques and applying them to non-traumatic but still bothersome events in your own past might yield interesting results.
posted by flabdablet at 5:44 PM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm going with the working assumption that the bleeding does in fact stop temporarily for as long as your attention can remain directed somewhere other than toward the cause of it, because that's my current best understanding of how human brains work and I believe you have one.
If that's true, then what you're describing sounds to me like having an unusually clear and detailed memory for emotions, such that recalling any given event will also cause re-experiencing the emotions originally associated with it, in great detail and at full strength.
For some people, this only happens when the event concerned is horribly traumatic and in that case the phenomenon is called PTSD. But human variability being what it is, I'd guess that the kind of brain workings that support PTSD might also manifest more generally in some people, and that you and Violet Hour might be such people.
Successful treatment for PTSD involves practices designed specifically to hook new emotions onto the recall of traumatic events. If my guess is right, then researching those techniques and applying them to non-traumatic but still bothersome events in your own past might yield interesting results.
posted by flabdablet at 5:44 PM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never ever ever ever stop bleeding...
I understand this feeling. Flabdablet - it is not as you are describing above, the issue is that the pain is so intense you cannot be distracted from it short of anaethaesia or lobotomy. Alternatively, it's overwhelming like an avalanche. Really strong emotions are exactly that, it's a full body convulsion. And it leaves welts.
In these instances the issue is not so much 'acting out' but 'shutting down'. You get flooded, there's nowhere to go. It comes at you and that's it. It goes beyond the ego and spears the id.
OP - if this is what you mean CBT won't work. You have to talk through examples of times when it has happened, have your therapist help you articulate the trigger, the burn, the immediate aftermath. Work out what sets you off and walk it back from there so that, in time you can start to recognise what flips the switch and learn to duck and roll before it drags you under.
posted by freya_lamb at 6:10 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I understand this feeling. Flabdablet - it is not as you are describing above, the issue is that the pain is so intense you cannot be distracted from it short of anaethaesia or lobotomy. Alternatively, it's overwhelming like an avalanche. Really strong emotions are exactly that, it's a full body convulsion. And it leaves welts.
In these instances the issue is not so much 'acting out' but 'shutting down'. You get flooded, there's nowhere to go. It comes at you and that's it. It goes beyond the ego and spears the id.
OP - if this is what you mean CBT won't work. You have to talk through examples of times when it has happened, have your therapist help you articulate the trigger, the burn, the immediate aftermath. Work out what sets you off and walk it back from there so that, in time you can start to recognise what flips the switch and learn to duck and roll before it drags you under.
posted by freya_lamb at 6:10 PM on March 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
That also sounds a lot like complex PTSD.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:35 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 6:35 PM on March 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I recognise this. I am autistic. You may also be autistic.
posted by lokta at 6:57 PM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by lokta at 6:57 PM on March 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
If there was a clinical term that could be used to describe it, such as "emotional fixing condition" or "maladaptive emotional rigidity disorder" - defined as a state whereby emotions are not experienced as choices and/or resist attempts at change or a reduction in their intensity - how would it help? Is it something you would intend to show to therapists or friends/family to confirm that a certain approach is ineffective for you, thereby avoiding wasting time and potentially helping to find a method that is, or is it something that would simply give you relief in its very naming?
I googled 'inability to choose emotions' and did find a discussion of Total Control v No Control Theory of Emotions, but it's not scientific, simply a discussion of the current prevailing cultural predisposition towards thinking we can choose to feel a certain way, and the obvious counter-argument.
I am coming from a standpoint of accepting that many humans have a hugely difficult time controlling what they want to feel or changing it, and my own default position is always going to be to accept this (at least as a starting point). I think the pathologising of the entirely normal can become pathological in itself. However, yes, some people are rigid with their emotions or have difficulties with them to the extent that a clinical term seems possible, but I think it'd tend to arise under a broader umbrella than one purely specific to an inability to experience emotions as choices (which is humanity in its entirety, before it starts chanting or visualising).
I read your opening post as describing, in an understated way, a state of being in severe emotional pain that is not subsiding and is resisting some commonly applied tools for managing less severe emotional states, with resultant frustration because of the insistence on ineffective techniques. It's more than possible I'm reading it entirely wrongly, (internet, lack of further context), and projecting something not actually there. You may be posing your query from a much more intellectual perspective ("Why can't I understand and experience emotions the way other people do? And why can't people get or accept that I don't?"), which is why you'll likely then experience extreme frustration on this thread, because many people will be reacting emotionally to a person in perceived pain and wanting to lessen it, whilst your needs in terms of the responses may be very different.
posted by Lilypod at 7:17 PM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I googled 'inability to choose emotions' and did find a discussion of Total Control v No Control Theory of Emotions, but it's not scientific, simply a discussion of the current prevailing cultural predisposition towards thinking we can choose to feel a certain way, and the obvious counter-argument.
I am coming from a standpoint of accepting that many humans have a hugely difficult time controlling what they want to feel or changing it, and my own default position is always going to be to accept this (at least as a starting point). I think the pathologising of the entirely normal can become pathological in itself. However, yes, some people are rigid with their emotions or have difficulties with them to the extent that a clinical term seems possible, but I think it'd tend to arise under a broader umbrella than one purely specific to an inability to experience emotions as choices (which is humanity in its entirety, before it starts chanting or visualising).
I read your opening post as describing, in an understated way, a state of being in severe emotional pain that is not subsiding and is resisting some commonly applied tools for managing less severe emotional states, with resultant frustration because of the insistence on ineffective techniques. It's more than possible I'm reading it entirely wrongly, (internet, lack of further context), and projecting something not actually there. You may be posing your query from a much more intellectual perspective ("Why can't I understand and experience emotions the way other people do? And why can't people get or accept that I don't?"), which is why you'll likely then experience extreme frustration on this thread, because many people will be reacting emotionally to a person in perceived pain and wanting to lessen it, whilst your needs in terms of the responses may be very different.
posted by Lilypod at 7:17 PM on March 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Is it something you would intend to show to therapists or friends/family to confirm that a certain approach is ineffective for you, thereby avoiding wasting time and potentially helping to find a method that is
Yes, this is why I'd like a name for it. What keeps happening and keeps happening is that people--even psychologists--just don't believe me and/or say I'm not "trying,' when I don't even understand how to try; I'm even seeing that here in this thread. Like, if you have a known thing like colorblindness, people stop badgering you to see color and find ways to work around that. I'd also like to better understand it, which having a clinical term might help me be able to do. I strongly suspect it's some kind of neurodevelopmental problem, but I'm at a loss as to what.
I once described it to someone as the emotional equivalent of hemophilia; if you cut me, emotionally, I never ever ever ever stop bleeding. If it's a small enough cut it might slow down to a trickle after awhile, and maybe even scab a bit.
It also applies to positive feelings, FWIW; if I had a crush on someone in 5th grade I basically still do have a crush on them now. This makes breakups extra hard since I neither stop loving the person OR stop being fucking furious with them, lol.
Omg, yes, this, exactly. That's kind of what I mean by not understanding concepts like forgiveness or acceptance at all. The hurt never lessens so the anger never does either. This can be true of people I'm close to, but it can also be true for people who've just really hurt me in some way--I'm still viciously, violently angry at the dentist who mistreated me when I was five, for example (I'm 43!!!). But I don't behave inappropriately, I function ok, I'm not going to hunt down the dentist or do anything, etc.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:04 PM on March 19, 2018
Yes, this is why I'd like a name for it. What keeps happening and keeps happening is that people--even psychologists--just don't believe me and/or say I'm not "trying,' when I don't even understand how to try; I'm even seeing that here in this thread. Like, if you have a known thing like colorblindness, people stop badgering you to see color and find ways to work around that. I'd also like to better understand it, which having a clinical term might help me be able to do. I strongly suspect it's some kind of neurodevelopmental problem, but I'm at a loss as to what.
I once described it to someone as the emotional equivalent of hemophilia; if you cut me, emotionally, I never ever ever ever stop bleeding. If it's a small enough cut it might slow down to a trickle after awhile, and maybe even scab a bit.
It also applies to positive feelings, FWIW; if I had a crush on someone in 5th grade I basically still do have a crush on them now. This makes breakups extra hard since I neither stop loving the person OR stop being fucking furious with them, lol.
Omg, yes, this, exactly. That's kind of what I mean by not understanding concepts like forgiveness or acceptance at all. The hurt never lessens so the anger never does either. This can be true of people I'm close to, but it can also be true for people who've just really hurt me in some way--I'm still viciously, violently angry at the dentist who mistreated me when I was five, for example (I'm 43!!!). But I don't behave inappropriately, I function ok, I'm not going to hunt down the dentist or do anything, etc.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:04 PM on March 19, 2018
Hi there, I'm a philosopher specializing in emotions- with a heavy psychology/neuroscience angle. You've certainly described something very interesting, and I'm not sure there is a recognized term for it. The general ballpark is going to be individual differences in emotional regulation- where you seem to sit at the extreme end of it.
Basically, there's a lot more information I want to know, but mainly this: do you ever experience inappropriate emotions? That is, are you ever able to say "I'm angry about this, but I shouldn't be because nothing offensive actually happened' or 'I'm sad about this, but actually there's nothing to be sad about'- continuing that line- do you react emotionally to films, but then recognize that it's just a fiction and so you shouldn't really be scared, angry, sad etc..?
I also want to know if it's possible to manipulate your mood in various ways- e.g. by means of drugs/alcohol, listening to music, adjusting bodily posture, faking emotional expressions. This is one common way that people regulate their emotional states.
Finally, we could look at your capacity to shift your attention towards and away from emotional stimuli. Can you just ignore annoying things, or do you get fixated on them? Can you distract yourself from something sad by thinking about something else? Can you deliberately think of something sad that's happened in your life and make yourself sad? Can you think of something that's made you sad before, but now in a totally neutral way without feeling much at all (unlike the haemophilia example above)?
posted by leibniz at 9:29 PM on March 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
Basically, there's a lot more information I want to know, but mainly this: do you ever experience inappropriate emotions? That is, are you ever able to say "I'm angry about this, but I shouldn't be because nothing offensive actually happened' or 'I'm sad about this, but actually there's nothing to be sad about'- continuing that line- do you react emotionally to films, but then recognize that it's just a fiction and so you shouldn't really be scared, angry, sad etc..?
I also want to know if it's possible to manipulate your mood in various ways- e.g. by means of drugs/alcohol, listening to music, adjusting bodily posture, faking emotional expressions. This is one common way that people regulate their emotional states.
Finally, we could look at your capacity to shift your attention towards and away from emotional stimuli. Can you just ignore annoying things, or do you get fixated on them? Can you distract yourself from something sad by thinking about something else? Can you deliberately think of something sad that's happened in your life and make yourself sad? Can you think of something that's made you sad before, but now in a totally neutral way without feeling much at all (unlike the haemophilia example above)?
posted by leibniz at 9:29 PM on March 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
If you have a feeling based on what someone did, but later on learn that there was a different explanation, does that change how you feel?
Like, if someone does something really nice for you, but then later you learn it was done insincerely? Or conversely, if you learn that an offense was actually a huge misunderstanding?
posted by rebent at 5:18 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Like, if someone does something really nice for you, but then later you learn it was done insincerely? Or conversely, if you learn that an offense was actually a huge misunderstanding?
posted by rebent at 5:18 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Does it happen with positive emotions too?
posted by headnsouth at 3:10 AM on March 19, 2018