How to respond to a minor stupid aspect of the patriarchy?
January 5, 2018 3:03 PM Subscribe
Help my spouse and I respond constructively respond to the following situation:
My spouse’s significantly younger sister (20) comes over for dinner, and brings along her (similarly aged) new boyfriend, who spouse and I are meeting for the first time. After chit chatting for a couple hours, new boyfriend says “I’m glad you and spouse got to meet me and see I’m the right kind of guy for your sister to be dating. And I want to let you know that I’ll do anything to protect her.”
(I assume in a sense that as my spouse (mid-30s) is a significantly older brother, and only family member living nearby sister, spouse is a stand-in for sister’s dad or something, as if new boyfriend needed to verbally validly his worth...)
Spouse and sister were brought up in a religious household with patriarchal ( though not overtly anti-feminist) tendencies, and now have both left the church; sister only left a year ago. Spouse, like me, is secular/feminist, so were both really bothered that this new boyfriend, probably only out of polite intention, was kinda asking for our approval to date sister. Sister is a independent person and belongs to no one, and most certainly does not need anyone’s permission for anything, she isn’t an object needing protection. She’s awesome.
She’s also a bit of a serial boyfriend-haver.
Tomorrow night we are meeting the new new boyfriend, who left the same brand of church sister did, and he her account seems like a good dude. We’re excied to meet him. But what if he pulls some similar approval-seeking fuckery as the last NB? We want to have something to say that will convey:
1) sister is a independent person equal to any other person.
2) spouse and I have not and would never give permission for anyone to date anyone else.
3) we appreciate your concern, but most certainly do not appreciate your sentiment of implying sister is a thing to look pretty and be protected rather than a person.
Can the celebrated citizens of MeFi help us script something that will set this young man straight if he tries to pull some 1870s shit on us? We don’t want to scare him... much.
Bonus points: how do we encourage sister to seek out feminist boyfriends :)
(I assume in a sense that as my spouse (mid-30s) is a significantly older brother, and only family member living nearby sister, spouse is a stand-in for sister’s dad or something, as if new boyfriend needed to verbally validly his worth...)
Spouse and sister were brought up in a religious household with patriarchal ( though not overtly anti-feminist) tendencies, and now have both left the church; sister only left a year ago. Spouse, like me, is secular/feminist, so were both really bothered that this new boyfriend, probably only out of polite intention, was kinda asking for our approval to date sister. Sister is a independent person and belongs to no one, and most certainly does not need anyone’s permission for anything, she isn’t an object needing protection. She’s awesome.
She’s also a bit of a serial boyfriend-haver.
Tomorrow night we are meeting the new new boyfriend, who left the same brand of church sister did, and he her account seems like a good dude. We’re excied to meet him. But what if he pulls some similar approval-seeking fuckery as the last NB? We want to have something to say that will convey:
1) sister is a independent person equal to any other person.
2) spouse and I have not and would never give permission for anyone to date anyone else.
3) we appreciate your concern, but most certainly do not appreciate your sentiment of implying sister is a thing to look pretty and be protected rather than a person.
Can the celebrated citizens of MeFi help us script something that will set this young man straight if he tries to pull some 1870s shit on us? We don’t want to scare him... much.
Bonus points: how do we encourage sister to seek out feminist boyfriends :)
still seems like you're trying to protect her, speaking of protecting...
Anyways, I don't think this guy is an idiot just because he wants to protect her. In my experience of meeting dates of my brother, or of my friends, they don't word it the same way, but they all want the friend/ sibling's approval. It shows they are serious about dating that person. I've had this situation for either gender. Sure, the way he put it, it sounds like he is trying to protect her like a piece of property. But the sentiment behind it is probably more something like: "I want you to like me because I love your sister. I want to be a part of your family and I respect your opinion."
posted by winterportage at 3:11 PM on January 5, 2018 [45 favorites]
Anyways, I don't think this guy is an idiot just because he wants to protect her. In my experience of meeting dates of my brother, or of my friends, they don't word it the same way, but they all want the friend/ sibling's approval. It shows they are serious about dating that person. I've had this situation for either gender. Sure, the way he put it, it sounds like he is trying to protect her like a piece of property. But the sentiment behind it is probably more something like: "I want you to like me because I love your sister. I want to be a part of your family and I respect your opinion."
posted by winterportage at 3:11 PM on January 5, 2018 [45 favorites]
Best answer: "That's awfully nice of you. [younger sister], I assume you're going to be telling [meathead]'s parents that you'll be protecting their boy next."
posted by bonehead at 3:13 PM on January 5, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 3:13 PM on January 5, 2018 [31 favorites]
Best answer: In my experience of meeting dates of my brother, or of my friends, they don't word it the same way, but they all want the friend/ sibling's approval.
This specific wording signals a specific kind of thinking, though, that does come out of these churches and is potentially harmful. Even after leaving that kind of church, it may be hard to break away from their patterns of thought, especially when those patterns are just somewhat exaggerated versions of previously established patterns in the culture.
I agree with the light-hearted approach. Smile gently and say something like, "well, sister's a pretty tough cookie, she probably doesn't need protecting," and change the subject. You don't want to make a big deal out of it, because he would be trying to be nice and might not even really be aware of the implications of what he's saying, but neither do you want to implicitly endorse that position.
posted by praemunire at 3:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
This specific wording signals a specific kind of thinking, though, that does come out of these churches and is potentially harmful. Even after leaving that kind of church, it may be hard to break away from their patterns of thought, especially when those patterns are just somewhat exaggerated versions of previously established patterns in the culture.
I agree with the light-hearted approach. Smile gently and say something like, "well, sister's a pretty tough cookie, she probably doesn't need protecting," and change the subject. You don't want to make a big deal out of it, because he would be trying to be nice and might not even really be aware of the implications of what he's saying, but neither do you want to implicitly endorse that position.
posted by praemunire at 3:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
In an easy, light manner, while smiling, "[Sister]'s an adult. She gets to make her own choices, and we certainly don't get approval rights over her partner!" Then probably change the subject.
I think a light comment rather than a heavy lecture is the way to go.
posted by lazuli at 3:17 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think a light comment rather than a heavy lecture is the way to go.
posted by lazuli at 3:17 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
And yeah, busting out the "Scary big brother" routine would just reinforce the dynamic you're trying to break down.
posted by lazuli at 3:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 3:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'm with winterportage. I also think the fact that you're calling it out as minor and stupid in the post suggests it doesn't require a response. He's 20, and sounds like he really likes sister. She also is a "serial boyfriend-haver," so it's unlikely this guy is around for good.
With regard to encouraging her to seek out feminist boyfriends, I'd suggest having a direct conversation with her about it in general, making it about the shared background spouse and her have, rather than about this boyfriend in particular.
posted by bigplugin at 3:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
With regard to encouraging her to seek out feminist boyfriends, I'd suggest having a direct conversation with her about it in general, making it about the shared background spouse and her have, rather than about this boyfriend in particular.
posted by bigplugin at 3:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Bonus points: how do we encourage sister to seek out feminist boyfriends
By letting her know you trust her judgment -- e.g., by not trying to intimidate her dates into good behavior -- and modeling that type of equal relationship for her.
posted by lazuli at 3:20 PM on January 5, 2018 [23 favorites]
By letting her know you trust her judgment -- e.g., by not trying to intimidate her dates into good behavior -- and modeling that type of equal relationship for her.
posted by lazuli at 3:20 PM on January 5, 2018 [23 favorites]
You can use the opportunity to give him big clues about what your family (and SIL) think a relationship should be.
“You must have been attracted to Jane’s independence- it is central to who she is.”
“Only she can assess the character of her friends and partners. Anyone interested in a deep relationship with her will recognize her independence and inner spirit.”
Which of course is an important component to a healthy equal partnership.”
posted by calgirl at 3:26 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
“You must have been attracted to Jane’s independence- it is central to who she is.”
“Only she can assess the character of her friends and partners. Anyone interested in a deep relationship with her will recognize her independence and inner spirit.”
Which of course is an important component to a healthy equal partnership.”
posted by calgirl at 3:26 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This will likely never happen again.
posted by jbenben at 3:31 PM on January 5, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by jbenben at 3:31 PM on January 5, 2018 [29 favorites]
"from what?" with a little bit of shock. but only because that would be my honest reaction. "Is she in danger??" if you want to be extra melodramatic.
what he's doing is trying to speak in code and counting on you both to recognize that and to play along and answer in kind. but you don't have to pretend to know what he means when knowing implies agreeing - you can be nice and polite but confused. if you don't overplay it, it might make him feel like a fool without requiring you to call him a fool and feel like a bully.
or maybe better: "We know she'll protect you, too; she's a good person and you don't have anything to worry about. I hope your family knows they can trust her to take good care of you."
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
what he's doing is trying to speak in code and counting on you both to recognize that and to play along and answer in kind. but you don't have to pretend to know what he means when knowing implies agreeing - you can be nice and polite but confused. if you don't overplay it, it might make him feel like a fool without requiring you to call him a fool and feel like a bully.
or maybe better: "We know she'll protect you, too; she's a good person and you don't have anything to worry about. I hope your family knows they can trust her to take good care of you."
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
I’m the right kind of guy for your sister to be dating
I'm seeing a huge red flag here.....it's SISTER'S decision, NOT boy's.
posted by brujita at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm seeing a huge red flag here.....it's SISTER'S decision, NOT boy's.
posted by brujita at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
I would ask for specific details in writing.
posted by roger ackroyd at 3:38 PM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by roger ackroyd at 3:38 PM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
It sounds like you're making a mountain out of yesterday's molehill. Your spouse's sister seems popular and has had a few boyfriends, one of whom made an off-putting comment, and now you want to "prepare an appropriate putdown", in advance, in case the current boyfriend makes a similar remark?
Maybe leave any comeback remarks to his sister. She doesn't need to be protected by a boyfriend or defended by you and your spouse.
posted by shoesietart at 4:06 PM on January 5, 2018 [49 favorites]
Maybe leave any comeback remarks to his sister. She doesn't need to be protected by a boyfriend or defended by you and your spouse.
posted by shoesietart at 4:06 PM on January 5, 2018 [49 favorites]
"How nice. Sis, are you going to protect him back?"
I mean ideally a nice relationship might involve both people protecting each other at times. But really, this is your sister's relationship and her call. Maybe she wants a partner who's invested in protecting her.
Do you and your sister have DEEP TALKS about relationships, feminism, and what it's all about? I think having thoughtful conversations inviting her to think and discuss, sharing your values without pushing them onto her, is the better route to addressing your underlying concern here - that she be able to recognize and establish respectful partnerships. You could also say to her privately - with curiosity rather than judgment, "I was so surprised when your old boyfriend made that speech about protecting you. Is that what you're looking for? Why is it important to you?"
Correcting her boyfriends over dinner has a very limited payoff.Winning her over to the dark side Encouraging her to think more about what she wants in relationships means she'll be better equipped to pick good partners whether you're there to supervise or not.
Also I've been a feminist since I was about 22. At 20 I probably would have swooned happily to hear a guy say he wanted to protect me. She's still growing up. Be patient.
posted by bunderful at 4:31 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
I mean ideally a nice relationship might involve both people protecting each other at times. But really, this is your sister's relationship and her call. Maybe she wants a partner who's invested in protecting her.
Do you and your sister have DEEP TALKS about relationships, feminism, and what it's all about? I think having thoughtful conversations inviting her to think and discuss, sharing your values without pushing them onto her, is the better route to addressing your underlying concern here - that she be able to recognize and establish respectful partnerships. You could also say to her privately - with curiosity rather than judgment, "I was so surprised when your old boyfriend made that speech about protecting you. Is that what you're looking for? Why is it important to you?"
Correcting her boyfriends over dinner has a very limited payoff.
Also I've been a feminist since I was about 22. At 20 I probably would have swooned happily to hear a guy say he wanted to protect me. She's still growing up. Be patient.
posted by bunderful at 4:31 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
(I apologize, I mistakenly referred to her as your sister in my answer, rather than sister-in-law. My bad. Good luck!)
posted by bunderful at 4:36 PM on January 5, 2018
posted by bunderful at 4:36 PM on January 5, 2018
Best answer: I think the more important question is what does the sister think about the comment?
The comment itself, while in black and white print may seem offputting (It does to me a bit as well) may or may not mean anything besides dude is trying to impress you and doing a bad job of it.
In any case, how YOU treat and value your partner is a better example for sis than what anybody says out of their mouth. The people who have taught me and my husband the most about what it means to be equal partners and a team in marriage have never even directly talked to us about marriage or partnership at all. What they did was have us over for dinner which they cooked together in front of us and then cleaned up together afterward. Considering they were a Christian ministry couple in their sixties at the time made it a bigger impact as we had been indoctrinated in Christian Roles In The Family and these folks blew all that right out.
My husband still talks about that dinner occasionally.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:56 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
The comment itself, while in black and white print may seem offputting (It does to me a bit as well) may or may not mean anything besides dude is trying to impress you and doing a bad job of it.
In any case, how YOU treat and value your partner is a better example for sis than what anybody says out of their mouth. The people who have taught me and my husband the most about what it means to be equal partners and a team in marriage have never even directly talked to us about marriage or partnership at all. What they did was have us over for dinner which they cooked together in front of us and then cleaned up together afterward. Considering they were a Christian ministry couple in their sixties at the time made it a bigger impact as we had been indoctrinated in Christian Roles In The Family and these folks blew all that right out.
My husband still talks about that dinner occasionally.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:56 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
oh also it might be a learned fear response from a history of dating girls and women whose brothers and fathers were the type to threaten to murder him if he failed to protect their property from everything up to and including her own sexual advances. I hear that's a thing, still. in that case he ought to relax as soon as he figures out you are not that kind of family. I would not respect him for it but I wouldn't worry.
how do we encourage sister to seek out feminist boyfriends
reread points 1 through 3 in your question and consider whether you really believe them. If she's an adult who doesn't need protection, she doesn't need to be told who to date either. guidance on who she should want from an older male relative is not very compatible with a strong anti-patriarchy stance on relationships. so if she asks what you think of some guy, tell her and don't soften it; if she complains about sexism, agree with her forcefully. but it would probably be more effective and less hypocritical coming from you than from her brother. you can't be mad that the boyfriend acts like you two have the right to authorize his boyfriendhood, and then turn around and strategize how to steer her towards or away from a type of boyfriend.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:03 PM on January 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
how do we encourage sister to seek out feminist boyfriends
reread points 1 through 3 in your question and consider whether you really believe them. If she's an adult who doesn't need protection, she doesn't need to be told who to date either. guidance on who she should want from an older male relative is not very compatible with a strong anti-patriarchy stance on relationships. so if she asks what you think of some guy, tell her and don't soften it; if she complains about sexism, agree with her forcefully. but it would probably be more effective and less hypocritical coming from you than from her brother. you can't be mad that the boyfriend acts like you two have the right to authorize his boyfriendhood, and then turn around and strategize how to steer her towards or away from a type of boyfriend.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:03 PM on January 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: On the off-chance that New New Boyf is going to do the same silly hat-over-heart “I assure you my intentions are noble” song-and-dance, your choreography and response-song is as follows:
(Suppressed chuckle/snort with an “awww, he’s adorable” look in the eyes — a sincere one, please)
SPOUSE: K. (Beat.) Well, be it known that you’re in good hands too.
YOU: Yeah, SIL had so much to say about you. (Beat.) All good! (Wiggle eyebrows, playful grin)
(Feign sincerity at this point, if you must; do not flare your nostrils in contempt nor otherwise give the impression that he’s merely another insufferable notch in her lipstick case. If you’re even thinking that, it’ll be all over your face.)
End Scene
On that point, I’m not sure if “serial boyfriend-haver” is such a bad thing to be at age 20. From, y’know, a feminist standpoint, isn’t that supposed to be when you’re figuring out what you want?
And by all means, encourage her to think about what she wants. The time for this conversation is later, after he’s left or when she drops by a few days later all, “So, what did you think of Dorkface?” That’s when you get to say, “He seems fine. What do YOU think? What about him caught your eye? What are you still feeling out?” And then listen. Because the more she talks, the more she can reflect.
When I was 20, I spent a lot of time squeezing myself into the mold of what i thought someone else wanted, but it was SO HEALTHY AND HELPFUL when I got space to articulate what I wanted in a relationship. If you want to encourage her as an independent, feminist woman, be that space.
posted by armeowda at 5:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
(Suppressed chuckle/snort with an “awww, he’s adorable” look in the eyes — a sincere one, please)
SPOUSE: K. (Beat.) Well, be it known that you’re in good hands too.
YOU: Yeah, SIL had so much to say about you. (Beat.) All good! (Wiggle eyebrows, playful grin)
(Feign sincerity at this point, if you must; do not flare your nostrils in contempt nor otherwise give the impression that he’s merely another insufferable notch in her lipstick case. If you’re even thinking that, it’ll be all over your face.)
End Scene
On that point, I’m not sure if “serial boyfriend-haver” is such a bad thing to be at age 20. From, y’know, a feminist standpoint, isn’t that supposed to be when you’re figuring out what you want?
And by all means, encourage her to think about what she wants. The time for this conversation is later, after he’s left or when she drops by a few days later all, “So, what did you think of Dorkface?” That’s when you get to say, “He seems fine. What do YOU think? What about him caught your eye? What are you still feeling out?” And then listen. Because the more she talks, the more she can reflect.
When I was 20, I spent a lot of time squeezing myself into the mold of what i thought someone else wanted, but it was SO HEALTHY AND HELPFUL when I got space to articulate what I wanted in a relationship. If you want to encourage her as an independent, feminist woman, be that space.
posted by armeowda at 5:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: You're meeting a new-new boyfriend? She might be bringing guys to meet her bro as a test to find out if they're going to say patronizing shit like that - she broke up with the last guy, right?
A neutral response could be "Oh, if lil sis likes you, that's all we care about."
If you wanted to meet fewer of lil sis's boyfriends, you could try "Oh, we like *everyone* lil sis brings to dinner."
posted by momus_window at 5:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
A neutral response could be "Oh, if lil sis likes you, that's all we care about."
If you wanted to meet fewer of lil sis's boyfriends, you could try "Oh, we like *everyone* lil sis brings to dinner."
posted by momus_window at 5:16 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
I feel sorry for this guy. He’s nervous. He’s trying to make a good impression and show he’s a good guy, and you feel like you need to give him a political lesson. I know you’re trying not to be heavy handed, but if I were little sister, I’d be embarrassed if you did this. I’d probably also want to side with the boyfriend in what you’ve inadvertently made into a kind of confrontation. It very much reminds me of the sort of things protective fathers said in the old days - just going in a different direction. If she can take care of herself, she can deal with this aspect of her boyfriends on her own.
The way to encourage her to seek feminist boyfriends is to make sure she understands her worth and to let her come to conclusions about guys she’s dating on her own. Which can be super hard in the moment, I realize. But what you don’t want her thinking is BF was just trying to be nice and they made him uncomfortable. That may be more satisfying in the moment, but it’s not a good overall strategy for her long-term happiness.
posted by FencingGal at 5:28 PM on January 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
The way to encourage her to seek feminist boyfriends is to make sure she understands her worth and to let her come to conclusions about guys she’s dating on her own. Which can be super hard in the moment, I realize. But what you don’t want her thinking is BF was just trying to be nice and they made him uncomfortable. That may be more satisfying in the moment, but it’s not a good overall strategy for her long-term happiness.
posted by FencingGal at 5:28 PM on January 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
"I don't know about my sister, but I never actually needed someone to protect me. What was important to me, besides companionship I truly enjoyed, was finding someone I would never need to protect myself from."
posted by trig at 5:30 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by trig at 5:30 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think your whole stance here is remarkably patronizing and un-self aware. Can she assess her own boyfriends or can't she? You claim she can. Go with that. If he says something she finds offensive, she can handle it, can't she? And - gasp - what if she doesn't like the kind of guys you like? Is that ok, or isn't it?
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:32 PM on January 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:32 PM on January 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
I think this happens in both directions all the time. When I’ve met various boyfriends’ parents, although the words were never spoken, it was understood that I was being checked out, and one of the the things I was being checked out about was - would I protect their son when he needed protecting? It’s not necessarily a physical kind of protection, although sometimes it is.
Everyone needs someone to protect them sometimes.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:52 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Everyone needs someone to protect them sometimes.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:52 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
"That's nice to say. For the record, though, I think whether she approves of you means more than whether I do - she's the one that's dating you, after all - so as long as she approves of you, that's good enough for me!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:22 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:22 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Agreeing with "if you're good enough for Sister, you're good enough for us" because this empowers Sister.
Even if this specific scenario doesn't play out in the same way again, I'm sure the vibe of her boyfriend seeking your approval will come up again. Or the vibe of Sister seeking your approval of a boyfriend will come up again.
Every time either one of them seeks your approval, turn the question over to Sister in some way. If it's him saying "I hope you approve of me dating her," then it's just "we don't have a say in who she dates, it's all up to her." If it's her asking you privately, "so what do you think of him?" then it's "What do YOU think of him? Only your opinion matters."
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 6:54 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
Even if this specific scenario doesn't play out in the same way again, I'm sure the vibe of her boyfriend seeking your approval will come up again. Or the vibe of Sister seeking your approval of a boyfriend will come up again.
Every time either one of them seeks your approval, turn the question over to Sister in some way. If it's him saying "I hope you approve of me dating her," then it's just "we don't have a say in who she dates, it's all up to her." If it's her asking you privately, "so what do you think of him?" then it's "What do YOU think of him? Only your opinion matters."
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 6:54 PM on January 5, 2018 [7 favorites]
So, I think there are a few things to unpack here.
First of all, it seems like you guys are kinda judge-y about your SIL's boyfriend choices for people that claim to think she's an independent person who can pick her own partners. I feel like most people are "serial boyfriend-havers" at age TWENTY, and you specifically reference wanting to influence SIL's choice in partner in the same breath as you say she doesn't need your approval. To the point that you're anticipating bad things a new boyfriend might possibly say to you even when you have no evidence that he will. So, I think part of it is just letting go of the fact that you can or should control your SIL's choice in boyfriends. If she asks your advice, of course you can give it! But otherwise I don't think it's your place to step in unless you see someone being actively abusive/dangerous.
Then, there's the issue of SIL/boyfriend seeming to seek your approval. In and of itself, I think this is totally normal. I'm a very independent/feminist woman, but of course I cared what my family and friends thought about my then-boyfriend/now-husband. Because I respect their opinion and I'd want to know if they saw red flags I was missing. This doesn't mean I was seeking their permission, but of course I wanted him to make a good impression when he met my parents (and vice versa)! I think this is true of many people across the feminist/non-feminist spectrum who are close to their families.
Finally, there's the specific "protection" comment. I don't think this is all that likely to continue happening over and over, but if it should, I would make a joke out of it like many people have suggested, and say something along the lines of "Of course, and I'm sure she'll protect you as well." Honestly, I get why this comment annoyed you, but I also don't think the sentiment itself is incompatible with feminism or viewing someone as a real person. My husband 100% protects me when I need it, and I protect him when he needs it. I realize not everyone might use those terms, but I don't think they're inherently anti-feminist/harmful, and back to point 1, it may be something your sister likes/appreciates.
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:08 PM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
First of all, it seems like you guys are kinda judge-y about your SIL's boyfriend choices for people that claim to think she's an independent person who can pick her own partners. I feel like most people are "serial boyfriend-havers" at age TWENTY, and you specifically reference wanting to influence SIL's choice in partner in the same breath as you say she doesn't need your approval. To the point that you're anticipating bad things a new boyfriend might possibly say to you even when you have no evidence that he will. So, I think part of it is just letting go of the fact that you can or should control your SIL's choice in boyfriends. If she asks your advice, of course you can give it! But otherwise I don't think it's your place to step in unless you see someone being actively abusive/dangerous.
Then, there's the issue of SIL/boyfriend seeming to seek your approval. In and of itself, I think this is totally normal. I'm a very independent/feminist woman, but of course I cared what my family and friends thought about my then-boyfriend/now-husband. Because I respect their opinion and I'd want to know if they saw red flags I was missing. This doesn't mean I was seeking their permission, but of course I wanted him to make a good impression when he met my parents (and vice versa)! I think this is true of many people across the feminist/non-feminist spectrum who are close to their families.
Finally, there's the specific "protection" comment. I don't think this is all that likely to continue happening over and over, but if it should, I would make a joke out of it like many people have suggested, and say something along the lines of "Of course, and I'm sure she'll protect you as well." Honestly, I get why this comment annoyed you, but I also don't think the sentiment itself is incompatible with feminism or viewing someone as a real person. My husband 100% protects me when I need it, and I protect him when he needs it. I realize not everyone might use those terms, but I don't think they're inherently anti-feminist/harmful, and back to point 1, it may be something your sister likes/appreciates.
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:08 PM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
Her very young and unproven-as-an-adult boyfriend saying something slightly idiotic to her fully adult older brother in an attempt to impress the older male is not a reflection on her. It's just a young guy trying to puff his feathers out a bit and fit in and coming off awkward. If she likes him, he's probably a good guy and if not, trust her to figure it out.
posted by fshgrl at 9:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 9:19 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
A 20 year old woman has experienced little of the effects of the patriarchy such as the income gap, the assumption that women are less capable, are in charge of chores etc. To them, feminist ideals are theoretical ideals because they haven't encountered real working life yet.
By informing her of the ills of the patriarchy, you encourage her to be a feminist, which encourages her to choose feminist boyfriends.
Right now she doesn't see the bias, but you can help her to.
posted by thesockpuppet at 9:21 PM on January 5, 2018
By informing her of the ills of the patriarchy, you encourage her to be a feminist, which encourages her to choose feminist boyfriends.
Right now she doesn't see the bias, but you can help her to.
posted by thesockpuppet at 9:21 PM on January 5, 2018
I might be tempted to say something like 'it is reassuring to hear that your intentions are good, and that you don't want to be misunderstood, but i think you'll find -- as we have -- that sil is a strong and independent person by nature, and quite capable of standing up for herself when occasion demands.'
From which I'd hope he would understand that it isn't wise to get possessive too soon, and that your approval isn't necessary or perhaps even helpful to his cause if she wishes to date him.
posted by jamjam at 9:26 PM on January 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
From which I'd hope he would understand that it isn't wise to get possessive too soon, and that your approval isn't necessary or perhaps even helpful to his cause if she wishes to date him.
posted by jamjam at 9:26 PM on January 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
If she can take care of herself, she can deal with this aspect of her boyfriends on her own.
Seconding.
posted by fairmettle at 11:47 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seconding.
posted by fairmettle at 11:47 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry to sit, but just wanted to clarify: we have no issue with the serial boyfriends lol. She's 20 and should definitely be dating. I was also 20, I know how it be! So zero slut-shaming attitude here. We're more weirded out that a very new boyfriend is making all these grand exaltations of feeling, as we sit back and inevitably wonder how soon the status will change. Like many of you pointed out though, she's 20. I guess I was waaaay more cynical as I dated in my 20s but that's a personal preference I wrongly project on her.
We agree with modeling egalitarian behavior, and that's why we want to respond constructively to a very gendered if hypothetical question. Last time spouse hobbled through the shock and answered it pretty well (to the effect of "oh, well I hope she takes care of you too!").
Thank you all for the scripts, keep 'em coming if you have them. Dinner's tonight! Hopefully very uneventful!
posted by Drosera at 5:30 AM on January 6, 2018
We agree with modeling egalitarian behavior, and that's why we want to respond constructively to a very gendered if hypothetical question. Last time spouse hobbled through the shock and answered it pretty well (to the effect of "oh, well I hope she takes care of you too!").
Thank you all for the scripts, keep 'em coming if you have them. Dinner's tonight! Hopefully very uneventful!
posted by Drosera at 5:30 AM on January 6, 2018
We're more weirded out that a very new boyfriend is making all these grand exaltations of feeling, as we sit back and inevitably wonder how soon the status will change.
If that's the core issue, I'd just be kind, polite and low-key when this stuff comes up. You have no obligation to explain to him that he's the nth in a long string of suitors you've met, or that he's young and dumb and will likely look back on this speech in 10 years and cringe with horror, and realize he hasn't spoken to the sister in 9.75 years. I totally get how uncomfortable that would be but they have to sort out for themselves whether they are right for each other ... and even people well beyond 20 can be very, very stupid when they're in love.
Boyfriend: "......And I would swim a million oceans to fight for her!"
You: "Well it's very nice that you could join us for dinner. Would you like some more potatoes? Sis said you were considering a major in botany! I'd love to hear more about that!"
Just try not to laugh or look awkward.
posted by bunderful at 6:54 AM on January 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
If that's the core issue, I'd just be kind, polite and low-key when this stuff comes up. You have no obligation to explain to him that he's the nth in a long string of suitors you've met, or that he's young and dumb and will likely look back on this speech in 10 years and cringe with horror, and realize he hasn't spoken to the sister in 9.75 years. I totally get how uncomfortable that would be but they have to sort out for themselves whether they are right for each other ... and even people well beyond 20 can be very, very stupid when they're in love.
Boyfriend: "......And I would swim a million oceans to fight for her!"
You: "Well it's very nice that you could join us for dinner. Would you like some more potatoes? Sis said you were considering a major in botany! I'd love to hear more about that!"
Just try not to laugh or look awkward.
posted by bunderful at 6:54 AM on January 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
You have no obligation to explain to him
Should have added - and it would be weird if you tried. Weird and drama-making.
posted by bunderful at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Should have added - and it would be weird if you tried. Weird and drama-making.
posted by bunderful at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
If that's the core issue, I'd just be kind, polite and low-key when this stuff comes up.
Exactly. The more serious your response, the more serious it will seem that you're taking the issue of whether the bf can protect your SIL or whatever. Treating it lightly, like it's a throwaway line, helps show that it's not something you're concerned about.
posted by lazuli at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2018
Exactly. The more serious your response, the more serious it will seem that you're taking the issue of whether the bf can protect your SIL or whatever. Treating it lightly, like it's a throwaway line, helps show that it's not something you're concerned about.
posted by lazuli at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2018
As someone who was once the 20 year old in your story (although I was softer on the chivalrous declarations), this is probably not going to go he way you want.
My ex-wife and I dated young, and she also had an older sister with a husband with ideas about the younger sister should date.
Even before I met her, she felt as if she had 4 parents, instead of just two. Trust me when I say this: nothing reinforces the traditional ideas of “The Patriarchy” when an older male, who married in, start setting ground rules for what is acceptable behavior.
She and I are now divorced and are getting close to 40. But besides our daughter, the most common conversation we have (to this day) relates to how our brother-in-law tried to control her love life all the way up to the birth of our child.
posted by sideshow at 10:00 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
My ex-wife and I dated young, and she also had an older sister with a husband with ideas about the younger sister should date.
Even before I met her, she felt as if she had 4 parents, instead of just two. Trust me when I say this: nothing reinforces the traditional ideas of “The Patriarchy” when an older male, who married in, start setting ground rules for what is acceptable behavior.
She and I are now divorced and are getting close to 40. But besides our daughter, the most common conversation we have (to this day) relates to how our brother-in-law tried to control her love life all the way up to the birth of our child.
posted by sideshow at 10:00 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Who or what do you anticipate having to protecting her from?"
posted by porpoise at 8:16 PM on January 6, 2018
posted by porpoise at 8:16 PM on January 6, 2018
You say she doesn't need your approval, yet you're screening these guys for behavior you disapprove of and looking for ways to scare them off. She's an independent person who can handle this misguided guy on her own. In fact, she already has.
She's 20, she's got years of questionable boyfriends ahead of her. Taking him to task over one well intentioned but ignorant statement is only going to serve to stop her from bringing them by for dinner.
posted by gennessee at 1:08 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
She's 20, she's got years of questionable boyfriends ahead of her. Taking him to task over one well intentioned but ignorant statement is only going to serve to stop her from bringing them by for dinner.
posted by gennessee at 1:08 AM on January 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: jbenben called it; others I marked best for useful scripts for the future and responses that helped us empathize with sister more effectively. Last new boyfriend ended up being every bit the POS his chivalrous comment suggested he'd be towards sister, and in short order, so spouse and I are on higher alert. But we are keen to maintain respect for sister's independence and choices, and are relieved that the vibes from new new boyfriend are much better.
Thank you everyone for your responses; this was very constructive as far as helping us to be better family, advocates, and allies towards sister.
posted by Drosera at 8:15 AM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thank you everyone for your responses; this was very constructive as far as helping us to be better family, advocates, and allies towards sister.
posted by Drosera at 8:15 AM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
She's 20 and should definitely be dating. I was also 20, I know how it be! So zero slut-shaming attitude here.
FYI for the future: dating around is no more slutty at 55 than 20. Age has nothing to do with it if you’re a feminist. Check that judgement.
posted by wreckofthehesperus at 1:38 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
FYI for the future: dating around is no more slutty at 55 than 20. Age has nothing to do with it if you’re a feminist. Check that judgement.
posted by wreckofthehesperus at 1:38 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
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You: (lightheartedly):You don't need our approval and Sister doesn't need to be protected by you. Sister is a strong, independent person who can look after herself. Be her friend and her companion, not her knight. Because women are as strong as men, doncha know. Want some more beans? "
posted by Thella at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2018 [24 favorites]