How do I fix this situation?
October 24, 2017 11:27 AM Subscribe
How can this social situation be resolved? A friend brought uninvited guests to a party and the guests low-key harassed the hosts and other guests.
Amy and Barbara threw a small party at Barbara's apartment, mainly for mutual coworkers. Amy also invited Carla, who is not a coworker but in our friend group. Carla came to the party not with the significant other we've all met a few times as was promised, but with three men whom neither the hosts or I have ever met. One of them is apparently Carla's long-time friend, and the other two were his friends and strangers to all of us.
Amy, Barbara and Carla got very intoxicated. Towards the end of the night, Carla's friend and one of his guests began to behave in a predatory manner. They stayed until well after all the guests left, physically isolating Amy and Barbara in a corner and trying to get their phone numbers. Carla was not in the room and didn't see this happen.
There's an additional wrinkle in the story that might or might not be related. One of Amy and Barbara's coworkers was drinking from the wine that Carla's friends brought with them to the party. He suddenly got blackout drunk and behaved in a way that I've only witnessed when someone has their drink drugged. He nearly got into a physical altercation with Carla's male friends and after they left, threatened the hosts, mimicked undoing his belt, refused to give an address the hosts to call him an Uber, and then went missing for two days. Meanwhile, Amy, Barbara and I got together the next day and try and figure out what the hell happened at this party.
Finally, a few days later, Amy told Carla off and disinvited her from future get-togethers. Amy is mad at Carla for bringing uninvited people who made everyone uncomfortable and scared Barbara in her own home. Carla is embarrassed and says she didn't know her friend and his friends were behaving poorly. I'm mad at Carla too, but only for bringing party crashers. Ultimately, though, her guests were the ones causing trouble, and in my mind the ones to blame. When I talked to Carla about the way he acted, she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this" and "not great at talking to people". She said she'd never bring him around again, but ultimately defended him.
What can I say to Amy, Barbara and Carla that might help the situation? Alternately, how can I feel better about everything that happened? I kind of don't ever want to go to a party again if that's what I can expect.
Amy and Barbara threw a small party at Barbara's apartment, mainly for mutual coworkers. Amy also invited Carla, who is not a coworker but in our friend group. Carla came to the party not with the significant other we've all met a few times as was promised, but with three men whom neither the hosts or I have ever met. One of them is apparently Carla's long-time friend, and the other two were his friends and strangers to all of us.
Amy, Barbara and Carla got very intoxicated. Towards the end of the night, Carla's friend and one of his guests began to behave in a predatory manner. They stayed until well after all the guests left, physically isolating Amy and Barbara in a corner and trying to get their phone numbers. Carla was not in the room and didn't see this happen.
There's an additional wrinkle in the story that might or might not be related. One of Amy and Barbara's coworkers was drinking from the wine that Carla's friends brought with them to the party. He suddenly got blackout drunk and behaved in a way that I've only witnessed when someone has their drink drugged. He nearly got into a physical altercation with Carla's male friends and after they left, threatened the hosts, mimicked undoing his belt, refused to give an address the hosts to call him an Uber, and then went missing for two days. Meanwhile, Amy, Barbara and I got together the next day and try and figure out what the hell happened at this party.
Finally, a few days later, Amy told Carla off and disinvited her from future get-togethers. Amy is mad at Carla for bringing uninvited people who made everyone uncomfortable and scared Barbara in her own home. Carla is embarrassed and says she didn't know her friend and his friends were behaving poorly. I'm mad at Carla too, but only for bringing party crashers. Ultimately, though, her guests were the ones causing trouble, and in my mind the ones to blame. When I talked to Carla about the way he acted, she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this" and "not great at talking to people". She said she'd never bring him around again, but ultimately defended him.
What can I say to Amy, Barbara and Carla that might help the situation? Alternately, how can I feel better about everything that happened? I kind of don't ever want to go to a party again if that's what I can expect.
Carla's guests aren't invited to drinking ever.
Period end of story.
You may also want to coincider if parting with coworkers is a thing you want to do , it isn't something i do outside of specific public work functions like a Christmas party.
Set your own boundries. I won't go to a party with Carlas friends anymore. Nope out if they show, politely. How much will you drink if you do? Whayever your boundries are.
Let others have their opinions and support them, don't try to make amends. That's for Carla to figure out, if it happens.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:42 AM on October 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
Period end of story.
You may also want to coincider if parting with coworkers is a thing you want to do , it isn't something i do outside of specific public work functions like a Christmas party.
Set your own boundries. I won't go to a party with Carlas friends anymore. Nope out if they show, politely. How much will you drink if you do? Whayever your boundries are.
Let others have their opinions and support them, don't try to make amends. That's for Carla to figure out, if it happens.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:42 AM on October 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
Alternately, how can I feel better about everything that happened?
One thing that will help is accepting how you do feel about it now, which is bad. Which is okay, because this is terrible. This was genuinely frightening, and it is completely okay for you to feel gun-shy about parties and gatherings for a while. What you do about the feeling is a totally separate matter. But how you feel is okay.
If we were speaking in general terms, I don't think it's great to blame a woman for the wrongdoing of a man, but Carla's not making her personal judgment seem any better by defending this guy. If Amy needs Carla to stay away from her home in order to feel safe, then that may just be how it is.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:44 AM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
One thing that will help is accepting how you do feel about it now, which is bad. Which is okay, because this is terrible. This was genuinely frightening, and it is completely okay for you to feel gun-shy about parties and gatherings for a while. What you do about the feeling is a totally separate matter. But how you feel is okay.
If we were speaking in general terms, I don't think it's great to blame a woman for the wrongdoing of a man, but Carla's not making her personal judgment seem any better by defending this guy. If Amy needs Carla to stay away from her home in order to feel safe, then that may just be how it is.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:44 AM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
Carla used bad judgment. Amy sounds like she handled the situation after the fact to her satisfaction. As far as you being more comfortable I guess it depends what was specifically uncomfortable for you? I'm not much of a drinker and my experience has been that parties where people are heavily drinking can often veer into drama territory that I tend not to enjoy but that other people feel are sort of "normal" for parties (i.e. the fighty guy) and so some of it is figuring out if everything was fine for the people involved but just not fine for me. Also I'd skip the drug question. You don't know, there is no way to know, I'd make sure that guy is ok.
I'm also not clear how much of this you were witness to and how much of it was recounted. Because if you were there, there are ally-type things you can do that can help, including helping A and B if they're dealing with jerky guys at the moment, helping tell people it's time to go etc. My take is that if you bring strangers to someone else's small house party you are more or less responsible for making sure they don't wreck things. This may be a difference of opinion between A/B and C. But it's also totally fine for Amy to make a one-and-done pronouncement that Carla can't come over to stuff anymore, that seems like a boundary that isn't that unusual.
posted by jessamyn at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm also not clear how much of this you were witness to and how much of it was recounted. Because if you were there, there are ally-type things you can do that can help, including helping A and B if they're dealing with jerky guys at the moment, helping tell people it's time to go etc. My take is that if you bring strangers to someone else's small house party you are more or less responsible for making sure they don't wreck things. This may be a difference of opinion between A/B and C. But it's also totally fine for Amy to make a one-and-done pronouncement that Carla can't come over to stuff anymore, that seems like a boundary that isn't that unusual.
posted by jessamyn at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: For context, the coworkers all work in a restaurant together, and tend to party like industry people often do.
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It doesn't really seem like you have a role in this other than observer/person who was also in a really terrible position. From what you've said I'd probably be on Amy's side in this - Carla may not have known what they were doing right then, but if he's "always doing things like this" then she knows he's a problem and chose to vouch for him among other friends anyway. I think if you bring strangers to someone's party you're putting your reputation on the line that they're ok people. In your place I probably wouldn't bring it up any further but I'd definitely be sympathetic to the people who were harassed and reduce contact with Carla (hard pass on her friends) in social situations (you could change that to only ones where there's booze, but I'm pretty cautious about these sorts of things).
posted by brilliantine at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by brilliantine at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
might be cool make a plan with yourself about what to do when people get out of hand at a party. even rehearsing to yourself, "If I see someone behaving in a predatory manner, I will say ' Not cool man', and put myself between the creeper and their target" will help you not freeze up if people are being weirdos in the moment.
if you and amy and barbara throw parties together a lot or you're super close maybe make a plan together
carla is uninvited to drinking things, her defensive reaction to bringing shitbat party idiots is telling
generally speaking who the hell invites friends of friends to work parties? weird. avoid
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
if you and amy and barbara throw parties together a lot or you're super close maybe make a plan together
carla is uninvited to drinking things, her defensive reaction to bringing shitbat party idiots is telling
generally speaking who the hell invites friends of friends to work parties? weird. avoid
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think it's fine to cut Carla out of the friends group - first, for defending her rapey "friends" instead of groveling and apologizing and promising never to invite strangers to a house party again, and certainly she is not going to invite these missing stair creepers. She's defending the rapey guy and if Carla is going to do that, she's not a safe friend to be around.
Second, showing up with surprise strangers to someone's house party is a no-no. At the very least, you text or email ahead and say, "My old friend from high school just showed up in town. Can I bring him along too?" Eff Carla, she's a problem person herself - don't feel obligated to keep her in your friend group.
I really can't blame you, Amy and Barbara for feeling traumatized and not wanting to go to any more parties! Maybe instead of house parties with abundant liquor, hold gatherings in public places like restaurants or cafes - it's what most people are doing anyway. I hate having large, drunk groups at my house, and, after some harrowing experiences myself (yay 80s and 90s!) I only have individuals or small groups of sober, trustworthy friends over.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:47 AM on October 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
Second, showing up with surprise strangers to someone's house party is a no-no. At the very least, you text or email ahead and say, "My old friend from high school just showed up in town. Can I bring him along too?" Eff Carla, she's a problem person herself - don't feel obligated to keep her in your friend group.
I really can't blame you, Amy and Barbara for feeling traumatized and not wanting to go to any more parties! Maybe instead of house parties with abundant liquor, hold gatherings in public places like restaurants or cafes - it's what most people are doing anyway. I hate having large, drunk groups at my house, and, after some harrowing experiences myself (yay 80s and 90s!) I only have individuals or small groups of sober, trustworthy friends over.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:47 AM on October 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
oh this is restaurant world. modifying my previous advice slightly toward more of my old hard drinking nixon meatloaf days:
if you have the space/time, checkin with A and B about what went down. how are they doing? what a shitty party! what a bummer! etc.
make a plan for yourself about what to do when you see people veer from liquored up shenanigans to creep-o or out of control smashy/fighty behavior. you know that stuff can happen when people party
still hard pass on carla and her stupid friends, creepers love the cover of drunk shenanigans to get their creep on.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:49 AM on October 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
if you have the space/time, checkin with A and B about what went down. how are they doing? what a shitty party! what a bummer! etc.
make a plan for yourself about what to do when you see people veer from liquored up shenanigans to creep-o or out of control smashy/fighty behavior. you know that stuff can happen when people party
still hard pass on carla and her stupid friends, creepers love the cover of drunk shenanigans to get their creep on.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:49 AM on October 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
I don't see a role here for you other than being sympathetic to Amy and Barbara. It's a real bummer when ANYTHING goes wrong at a party you're hosting, even something like running out of cheese, much less having an invited guest bring nasty strangers who not only ruin your party but make you feel unsafe. They're probably going to feel kind of fragile about it for a while, although righteous indignation does offer some solace sometimes. Be nice to them. Tell them it was otherwise a lovely party. Tell them they did a great job with the food and that they're great hostesses and it sucks that the creepers did what they did.
Carla sucks for having friends like this and doubly for knowingly bringing them to the party, but you don't need to do anything about that, it isn't within your power to fix.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:54 AM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Carla sucks for having friends like this and doubly for knowingly bringing them to the party, but you don't need to do anything about that, it isn't within your power to fix.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:54 AM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure what you're wanting to fix here, since none of this is about you. Why do you need to make any of them feel better, particularly Carla?
Are you trying to make it so you can still like Carla? Go for it, but keep in mind your choice of friends says something about your character, and Carla's friends and judgement says something about hers, so your association with her comes with downsides. Socializing with her seems dangerous, among other things. What happened was her responsibility, this is specifically part of party etiquette that you do not bring guests (much less uninvited ones) if you aren't 100% sure they will behave themselves and you monitor them and you get them out if they do not do that. She should feel bad. She shouldn't even want to be invited to future parties because she should be embarrassed. She should accept she's on probation at best at this point.
If you're just traumatized, worry about yourself, not them. In this volatile world, you should never walk into a situation without an exit plan in place whether you're going to a party or work or the grocery store. Spend some downtime defining your boundaries: what's okay behavior to you, and what's a warning sign, and what's a clear time-to-go signal? If something catches on fire - literally or figuratively - how long will you fight it before you decide to go outside?
This is as much advice to Younger Lyn as it is to you, but: you are not a leaf in the wind being blown this way and that by the behavior of other people. You are making choices every moment, and you can prepare contingency plans and have boundaries and defend them and that is FINE. And you don't have the responsibility, much less the power, to fix it when other people fuck up. Could you have intervened? Probably, but it may not have been safe to. Could you intervene if something similar happens in the future? Maybe if you are more prepared.
Neither you nor anybody else is guaranteed a life free from discomfort. You should be bothered by what happened. Amy and Barbara should think harder about who they let in their house. Carla should feel bad for her poor series of choices. Now everybody gets to process their bad feelings and turn them into lessons.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:04 PM on October 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
Are you trying to make it so you can still like Carla? Go for it, but keep in mind your choice of friends says something about your character, and Carla's friends and judgement says something about hers, so your association with her comes with downsides. Socializing with her seems dangerous, among other things. What happened was her responsibility, this is specifically part of party etiquette that you do not bring guests (much less uninvited ones) if you aren't 100% sure they will behave themselves and you monitor them and you get them out if they do not do that. She should feel bad. She shouldn't even want to be invited to future parties because she should be embarrassed. She should accept she's on probation at best at this point.
If you're just traumatized, worry about yourself, not them. In this volatile world, you should never walk into a situation without an exit plan in place whether you're going to a party or work or the grocery store. Spend some downtime defining your boundaries: what's okay behavior to you, and what's a warning sign, and what's a clear time-to-go signal? If something catches on fire - literally or figuratively - how long will you fight it before you decide to go outside?
This is as much advice to Younger Lyn as it is to you, but: you are not a leaf in the wind being blown this way and that by the behavior of other people. You are making choices every moment, and you can prepare contingency plans and have boundaries and defend them and that is FINE. And you don't have the responsibility, much less the power, to fix it when other people fuck up. Could you have intervened? Probably, but it may not have been safe to. Could you intervene if something similar happens in the future? Maybe if you are more prepared.
Neither you nor anybody else is guaranteed a life free from discomfort. You should be bothered by what happened. Amy and Barbara should think harder about who they let in their house. Carla should feel bad for her poor series of choices. Now everybody gets to process their bad feelings and turn them into lessons.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:04 PM on October 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Re-reading your question and getting past all that went down at that party, I think the kernel of what you're asking is this: It sounds like Amy has de-friended Carla, and although you are also angry at Carla for bringing those hooligans to the party, you understand that Carla is not, exactly, responsible for their behavior -- and so you are less inclined to actively blame or de-friend Carla. You'd like to know if there's anyway for you to broker a rapprochement between Amy and Carla so that your friendships don't fracture.
Personally, I wouldn't try to arrange a rapprochement between Amy, Barbara, and Carla. They should be free to manage their friendships as they see fit. Your job is to figure out how you want to manage your friendships, which can be with all three, with just Barbara and Amy, or with just Carla - and being friends with all three doesn't mean you have to all be friends together. It sounds like right now, you're not going to all hang out together anymore because Amy has made her boundary clear here. You are free to decide, then, if you want to continue to socialize with Carla on your own. And if Amy and Barbara will cast you out of their friendship because you choose to keep Carla as a friend, you're free to decide what to do next.
For the time being, I would say to Amy that you can totally empathize with how angry she is, but that although you think Carla made a bad decision, you also feel that the responsibility for what went wrong ultimately rests with the dudes involved and so you're not ready to write Carla off as a friend just yet. And I would say to Carla that you understand that the responsibility for what went wrong ultimately rests with the dudes involved, but that you're not quite ready to trust her judgment when it comes to group socializing just yet.
And then I would leave it alone and give it some time. There's no way to fix that party or undo what happened. The thing now is to come up with a plan for what sorts of steps might be taken to prevent something similar from happening in the future as well as how to deal with it when/if it happens.
posted by pinkacademic at 12:20 PM on October 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Personally, I wouldn't try to arrange a rapprochement between Amy, Barbara, and Carla. They should be free to manage their friendships as they see fit. Your job is to figure out how you want to manage your friendships, which can be with all three, with just Barbara and Amy, or with just Carla - and being friends with all three doesn't mean you have to all be friends together. It sounds like right now, you're not going to all hang out together anymore because Amy has made her boundary clear here. You are free to decide, then, if you want to continue to socialize with Carla on your own. And if Amy and Barbara will cast you out of their friendship because you choose to keep Carla as a friend, you're free to decide what to do next.
For the time being, I would say to Amy that you can totally empathize with how angry she is, but that although you think Carla made a bad decision, you also feel that the responsibility for what went wrong ultimately rests with the dudes involved and so you're not ready to write Carla off as a friend just yet. And I would say to Carla that you understand that the responsibility for what went wrong ultimately rests with the dudes involved, but that you're not quite ready to trust her judgment when it comes to group socializing just yet.
And then I would leave it alone and give it some time. There's no way to fix that party or undo what happened. The thing now is to come up with a plan for what sorts of steps might be taken to prevent something similar from happening in the future as well as how to deal with it when/if it happens.
posted by pinkacademic at 12:20 PM on October 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
What can I say to Amy, Barbara and Carla that might help the situation?
I think you can agree with Amy & Barbara that Carla showed very poor judgement in bringing the guest who is "always doing things like this" and back them up that Carla doesn't get invited again. You don't necessarily have to break off your friendship with Carla if you don't want to but bear in mind that if Amy & Barbara feel very betrayed by her right now (she brought a known predator into Barbara's home) and may be upset if you don't. You could consider making it clear to Carla if you haven't already that you don't consider her friends behaviour was acceptable but it sounds like she already knows that and it didn't change her actions so it may not have much effect.
Alternately, how can I feel better about everything that happened? I kind of don't ever want to go to a party again if that's what I can expect.
I don't think anyone can guarantee this will never happen again but being careful about the guest list is a good start. So is having at least a couple of people stay relatively sober so that they can spot bad behaviour brewing and nip it in the bud or call for help if needed.
If you do maintain a friendship with Carla be very careful about the kind of settings you socialise with her in (preferably everyone sober, if not then at least make sure you have an exit route and keep your own head clear).
posted by *becca* at 1:05 PM on October 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think you can agree with Amy & Barbara that Carla showed very poor judgement in bringing the guest who is "always doing things like this" and back them up that Carla doesn't get invited again. You don't necessarily have to break off your friendship with Carla if you don't want to but bear in mind that if Amy & Barbara feel very betrayed by her right now (she brought a known predator into Barbara's home) and may be upset if you don't. You could consider making it clear to Carla if you haven't already that you don't consider her friends behaviour was acceptable but it sounds like she already knows that and it didn't change her actions so it may not have much effect.
Alternately, how can I feel better about everything that happened? I kind of don't ever want to go to a party again if that's what I can expect.
I don't think anyone can guarantee this will never happen again but being careful about the guest list is a good start. So is having at least a couple of people stay relatively sober so that they can spot bad behaviour brewing and nip it in the bud or call for help if needed.
If you do maintain a friendship with Carla be very careful about the kind of settings you socialise with her in (preferably everyone sober, if not then at least make sure you have an exit route and keep your own head clear).
posted by *becca* at 1:05 PM on October 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Carla is embarrassed and says she didn't know her friend and his friends were behaving poorly. I'm mad at Carla too, but only for bringing party crashers.
But then:
When I talked to Carla about the way he acted, she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this" and "not great at talking to people".
She wasn't aware in the moment, but she knows who her friends are. She knows who she invited. The others are responsible for their own behavior, but Carla is responsible for bringing someone known to be like this AND multiple friends of someone known to be like this. This was not something she couldn't have guessed was going to happen. They're grown-ups who need to be responsible for what they did--and she's a grown-up who needs to be responsible for showing up with people who she had reason to know were going to be at least obnoxious and possibly dangerous. That's the line she crossed. She didn't do the harassment, but she enabled it.
Imagine if she brought a dog, which none of you were super okay with. That'd be one thing. Imagine if she brought a dog who was aggressive. In the first case, she maybe reasonably thought everything was going to be fine. In the second, it's not just the dog's fault; it's her fault for creating the situation where someone was unreasonably likely to get hurt.
She's not responsible for bringing party crashers. She's responsible for bringing predators.
posted by Sequence at 1:27 PM on October 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
But then:
When I talked to Carla about the way he acted, she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this" and "not great at talking to people".
She wasn't aware in the moment, but she knows who her friends are. She knows who she invited. The others are responsible for their own behavior, but Carla is responsible for bringing someone known to be like this AND multiple friends of someone known to be like this. This was not something she couldn't have guessed was going to happen. They're grown-ups who need to be responsible for what they did--and she's a grown-up who needs to be responsible for showing up with people who she had reason to know were going to be at least obnoxious and possibly dangerous. That's the line she crossed. She didn't do the harassment, but she enabled it.
Imagine if she brought a dog, which none of you were super okay with. That'd be one thing. Imagine if she brought a dog who was aggressive. In the first case, she maybe reasonably thought everything was going to be fine. In the second, it's not just the dog's fault; it's her fault for creating the situation where someone was unreasonably likely to get hurt.
She's not responsible for bringing party crashers. She's responsible for bringing predators.
posted by Sequence at 1:27 PM on October 24, 2017 [31 favorites]
given Carla knows what slimeballs these guys are she shouldn't be minimizing their crap.
posted by brujita at 2:09 PM on October 24, 2017
posted by brujita at 2:09 PM on October 24, 2017
Best answer: If I were Amy or Barbara and heard you trying to excuse Carla's terrible judgement and rude behavior ('it wasn't technically her who behaved so terribly'), I'd see you differently and not in a good way. Carla bringing unknown guests to a small party with no warning is rude enough. But, bringing someone she knows to be very problematic "When I talked to Carla about the way he acted, she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this" and "not great at talking to people" and *his* two friends? No. This is not a major gray area in my eyes and if you tried to defend it, I'd also think of you as potentially unsafe. You don't get to bring a bunch of missing stairs to a party unannounced and then not be held responsible.
posted by quince at 2:13 PM on October 24, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by quince at 2:13 PM on October 24, 2017 [16 favorites]
Carla knows her friends behave like assholes. Carla brought her asshole friends to a party, uninvited. Carla then turned a blind eye while her friends were, predictably, predatory assholes to everyone at the party. Carla, when called on this, threw her hands up and cried 'it's not my fault that these assholes that I brought were assholes, but in their defence...'.
The evidence supports the conclusion that Carla is an asshole too. Amy has cut her off, for what seem like very good reasons. What should you do? Encourage Carla to take responsibility for her obviously assholish actions. Suggest to her that she might usefully apologise to Amy. Any may not forgive her, but it's still the right thing to do.
And then walk away, because this isn't on you, it's on Carla.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:15 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
The evidence supports the conclusion that Carla is an asshole too. Amy has cut her off, for what seem like very good reasons. What should you do? Encourage Carla to take responsibility for her obviously assholish actions. Suggest to her that she might usefully apologise to Amy. Any may not forgive her, but it's still the right thing to do.
And then walk away, because this isn't on you, it's on Carla.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:15 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
I think I would call everyone who attended the party and warn them that you suspect those uninvited guests appeared to be trying to roofie (rape) women at the party, to warn them if they happen to see them in the future.
These peoples names should be dragged through the mud, so that everyone knows what they appeared to attempt. Don't let them be unknown "missing stairs".
posted by blueberry at 2:41 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
These peoples names should be dragged through the mud, so that everyone knows what they appeared to attempt. Don't let them be unknown "missing stairs".
posted by blueberry at 2:41 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Carla, the people you brought to the party were inappropriate and creepy. It feels really odd that you'd bring them over. They really behaved badly and freaked people out. First, don't bring them around again. Second, do you hang out with these guys? Cause that would worry me. Third, if it were me, I'd take Amy and Barbara wine. *Good* wine.
Amy and especially Barbara (since it was at your house), if somebody is at your party and/or in your house, and you aren't comfortable with them, you ask the person who brought them to ask them to leave, or you do it yourself, by saying
Name, it's time for you to go now.
Name, you've had enough to drink, can I call you an Uber?
and if they don't go, you call the police. For real.
People who are too polite about people who are behaving badly sometimes have bad results. It's always the responsibility of the person who behaves badly, but it's really good to learn boundaries.
posted by theora55 at 2:49 PM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amy and especially Barbara (since it was at your house), if somebody is at your party and/or in your house, and you aren't comfortable with them, you ask the person who brought them to ask them to leave, or you do it yourself, by saying
Name, it's time for you to go now.
Name, you've had enough to drink, can I call you an Uber?
and if they don't go, you call the police. For real.
People who are too polite about people who are behaving badly sometimes have bad results. It's always the responsibility of the person who behaves badly, but it's really good to learn boundaries.
posted by theora55 at 2:49 PM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The night after the party, Amy, Barbara and I got together and tried to sound out what it was about Carla's friends that had us all on edge. Whatever it was, it was in their facial expressions, the way they spoke to us, and the way they cornered us. It turns out we were all privately unnerved by these dudes in our own respective guts, but didn't figure out that we all felt that way until we got together the next day. They didn't do A Concrete Thing that we could describe as abusive, which Carla so helpfully pointed out when I spoke to her.
I wanted to give Carla benefit of the doubt because that is the least I can do for my friends. But as I described above, she evidently knew that her pal has acted like a creep before. It was at that point that I asked her to consider whether it was her job to socialize an asshole. I also decided to stop seeing her socially. This is not the first time I have lost a female friend in setting my own boundaries around bad male behavior. It still hurts, though.
Anyway, I appreciate all the advice.
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 2:59 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
I wanted to give Carla benefit of the doubt because that is the least I can do for my friends. But as I described above, she evidently knew that her pal has acted like a creep before. It was at that point that I asked her to consider whether it was her job to socialize an asshole. I also decided to stop seeing her socially. This is not the first time I have lost a female friend in setting my own boundaries around bad male behavior. It still hurts, though.
Anyway, I appreciate all the advice.
posted by Donald Trump Sex Nightmare at 2:59 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
it deffo sucks. i am gonna third my suggestion to make a plan for about what to do when you are privately unnerved by creep-os! it helps so much. sorry this is going on! what a crap situation.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:37 PM on October 24, 2017
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:37 PM on October 24, 2017
Carla is not some oblivious bystander. She's an active enabler. She brought her rapey obnoxious scary friends to a party, knowing what they were like. For all we know, she actually brought them so they could have access to new unwitting victims. She acknowledged she knew who they were and then defended them. All of this makes her at least as dangerous as them, if not more, because you trusted another woman to have your back and have vetted strange men and instead she used your party to allow them to prey on your guests. I'd not only stop seeing her socially, if you have a whisper network, I'd warn other women about her. And obviously, her friends.
posted by Jubey at 3:37 PM on October 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 3:37 PM on October 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
First of all, if you bring a guest to an event knowing they may clash with others there, for whatever reason - you're responsible for whatever goes wrong. It is YOUR problem.
Second, you do not bring uninvited guests to someone else's party.
Atom-smash these two party crimes together, and you are somewhere in the vicinity of actual crime. This of course is what you have observed.
So... First of all, I recommend checking on the welfare of the coworker you suspect may have been drugged. I know others have said that's not plausible, but your instincts say otherwise.
Carla shouldn't ever again be invited to Amy or Barbara's home. Nor to any event they are attending.
You also seem to have acknowledged that Carla is not a safe person to be around, and that's it really. Well, I REALLY have to nth Jubey's comment above mine, because it's not only a matter of Carla being too nice (ha! that phrase jars, doesn't it?) but that it is imaginable that Carla is actively malicious.
Not that I recommend dwelling on what Carla might be thinking, because she's clearly a hazard and nothing she's said or done suggests that that will change. You don't have to hate her or anything, just avoid her like you would a pothole on a highway, or a gas appliance with the tag DANGER DO NOT USE.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
Second, you do not bring uninvited guests to someone else's party.
Atom-smash these two party crimes together, and you are somewhere in the vicinity of actual crime. This of course is what you have observed.
So... First of all, I recommend checking on the welfare of the coworker you suspect may have been drugged. I know others have said that's not plausible, but your instincts say otherwise.
Carla shouldn't ever again be invited to Amy or Barbara's home. Nor to any event they are attending.
You also seem to have acknowledged that Carla is not a safe person to be around, and that's it really. Well, I REALLY have to nth Jubey's comment above mine, because it's not only a matter of Carla being too nice (ha! that phrase jars, doesn't it?) but that it is imaginable that Carla is actively malicious.
Not that I recommend dwelling on what Carla might be thinking, because she's clearly a hazard and nothing she's said or done suggests that that will change. You don't have to hate her or anything, just avoid her like you would a pothole on a highway, or a gas appliance with the tag DANGER DO NOT USE.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 PM on October 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
There's an additional wrinkle in the story that might or might not be related. One of Amy and Barbara's coworkers was drinking from the wine that Carla's friends brought with them to the party. He suddenly got blackout drunk and behaved in a way that I've only witnessed when someone has their drink drugged. He nearly got into a physical altercation with Carla's male friends and after they left, threatened the hosts, mimicked undoing his belt, refused to give an address the hosts to call him an Uber, and then went missing for two days.
oh, it's highly related, because if you can't be sure this guy was drugged -- and the belligerence you describe sounds as much like a very scary habitual violent drunk as it does like a drugging victim -- you have to decide whether every woman is to blame for her male guests' behavior, or just Carla. because this guy got threatening and violent too, and he's not one of the ones Carla brought. Did this guy say himself that he thought he was drugged, or confirm that he blacked out, or is this A & B being charitable to a man because they already know and like him, just like Carla?
there is also a lot of timeline confusion, because you say he threatened the hosts after Carla's friends left, but also say Carla's friends got physically threatening after all the other guests left.
this is not a minor question. but putting it aside, Amy and Barbara have the right idea for the wrong reasons. Carla's not guilty or complicit in activities she didn't help commit. but someone who voluntarily associates with and makes excuses for sexual predators is not someone to trust, all on her own merits. and I count physically cornering women in their own home while refusing to leave as sexual predation, even if the roofie speculation is unfounded.
but I really think A & B should be damn careful they're not looking for reasons to believe their own co-worker isn't a problem of a similar kind.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:11 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
oh, it's highly related, because if you can't be sure this guy was drugged -- and the belligerence you describe sounds as much like a very scary habitual violent drunk as it does like a drugging victim -- you have to decide whether every woman is to blame for her male guests' behavior, or just Carla. because this guy got threatening and violent too, and he's not one of the ones Carla brought. Did this guy say himself that he thought he was drugged, or confirm that he blacked out, or is this A & B being charitable to a man because they already know and like him, just like Carla?
there is also a lot of timeline confusion, because you say he threatened the hosts after Carla's friends left, but also say Carla's friends got physically threatening after all the other guests left.
this is not a minor question. but putting it aside, Amy and Barbara have the right idea for the wrong reasons. Carla's not guilty or complicit in activities she didn't help commit. but someone who voluntarily associates with and makes excuses for sexual predators is not someone to trust, all on her own merits. and I count physically cornering women in their own home while refusing to leave as sexual predation, even if the roofie speculation is unfounded.
but I really think A & B should be damn careful they're not looking for reasons to believe their own co-worker isn't a problem of a similar kind.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:11 PM on October 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I understand this. Let me help you here...
Carla has bad judgment, and this makes her unsafe to socialize with. You used your words and she doesn't get it. You did your due diligence and can feel good.
The end.
posted by jbenben at 5:19 PM on October 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Carla has bad judgment, and this makes her unsafe to socialize with. You used your words and she doesn't get it. You did your due diligence and can feel good.
The end.
posted by jbenben at 5:19 PM on October 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
she mentioned her friend is "always doing things like this"
A "friend" who said this about a person who they chose to bring into my home is a person I'd never be inviting back again, and cautioning my friends about inviting to their own homes and events.
It's not relevant whether the friend is to blame for the obnoxious person's behavior or what the gender of the friend is. (Or the gender of the badly behaved guest, either) They knew this person had behaved badly in the past and still brought them -- they have very poor judgement and my safety and the safety of my guests should not be endangered by their poor judgement.
It is also no point in C's favor that she wasn't aware of the behavior -- you bring a guest into someone's home (even if you asked first, but very much especially if you don't ask for permission), you have a level responsibly for their behavior even if you don't control their behavior -- this is why one should consider who one is inviting as their guest.
posted by yohko at 5:26 PM on October 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
A "friend" who said this about a person who they chose to bring into my home is a person I'd never be inviting back again, and cautioning my friends about inviting to their own homes and events.
It's not relevant whether the friend is to blame for the obnoxious person's behavior or what the gender of the friend is. (Or the gender of the badly behaved guest, either) They knew this person had behaved badly in the past and still brought them -- they have very poor judgement and my safety and the safety of my guests should not be endangered by their poor judgement.
It is also no point in C's favor that she wasn't aware of the behavior -- you bring a guest into someone's home (even if you asked first, but very much especially if you don't ask for permission), you have a level responsibly for their behavior even if you don't control their behavior -- this is why one should consider who one is inviting as their guest.
posted by yohko at 5:26 PM on October 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I've had a few Carlas in my work/social circles over the years. They tended to pride themselves on street smarts/worldliness, which they did not actually have; to put up with all manner of crap from the predatory Unwelcome Daves they hung around; and to have bizarre repressive backgrounds that made them think their creeper hangers-on were just some sort of REBEL VISIONARIES.
And those Unwelcome Daves, whom no one else invited, quickly became Everyone Else's Problem, ruining parties by being sexist and nasty and threatening, while all the Normal People in the room just stood around wondering how to say "Unwelcome Dave is Unwelcome" without Hurting Anyone's Feelings, or Endangering Carla.
Past Carlas have ultimately bailed on the whole friend group for perceived disloyalty/judgmental prudery (including a then-Spouse of Carla). Our own present Carla has threatened to do the same, then recanted in tears, then maybe realized Unwelcome Dave is a vampire, but maybe also not...it's messy. I don't know what's going to happen, but the friend group won't ever be the same.
I do not think the Carlas of this world are responsible for the behavior of the Unwelcome Daves, anymore than a rabid animal's victims are responsible for getting bitten. Still, and likewise, they're not that safe to be around, because their boundary problems eventually become your boundary problems: Carla invites Unwelcome Dave to your house without asking; Carla gives Unwelcome Dave your contact info without asking; Carla sits by and watches Unwelcome Dave treat everyone like crap, and all she can think is, "He's nicer to me than that, 10% of the time, and that's how I know I'm one of the few Elite People he Almost Respects!"
Carlas have been through some bad programming. I don't think they can help this.
And Unwelcome Daves are indeed predators, which is why they are drawn to Carlas. Carlas are always broken, but fixing them may well be above your paygrade, and Amy's and Barbara's as well. Any or all of you would have every right to attempt a "come to Jesus" moment with Carla, but also to downgrade the friendship. No obligation to try both in that order.
Good luck. It sucks, so much, all around.
posted by armeowda at 10:23 PM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
And those Unwelcome Daves, whom no one else invited, quickly became Everyone Else's Problem, ruining parties by being sexist and nasty and threatening, while all the Normal People in the room just stood around wondering how to say "Unwelcome Dave is Unwelcome" without Hurting Anyone's Feelings, or Endangering Carla.
Past Carlas have ultimately bailed on the whole friend group for perceived disloyalty/judgmental prudery (including a then-Spouse of Carla). Our own present Carla has threatened to do the same, then recanted in tears, then maybe realized Unwelcome Dave is a vampire, but maybe also not...it's messy. I don't know what's going to happen, but the friend group won't ever be the same.
I do not think the Carlas of this world are responsible for the behavior of the Unwelcome Daves, anymore than a rabid animal's victims are responsible for getting bitten. Still, and likewise, they're not that safe to be around, because their boundary problems eventually become your boundary problems: Carla invites Unwelcome Dave to your house without asking; Carla gives Unwelcome Dave your contact info without asking; Carla sits by and watches Unwelcome Dave treat everyone like crap, and all she can think is, "He's nicer to me than that, 10% of the time, and that's how I know I'm one of the few Elite People he Almost Respects!"
Carlas have been through some bad programming. I don't think they can help this.
And Unwelcome Daves are indeed predators, which is why they are drawn to Carlas. Carlas are always broken, but fixing them may well be above your paygrade, and Amy's and Barbara's as well. Any or all of you would have every right to attempt a "come to Jesus" moment with Carla, but also to downgrade the friendship. No obligation to try both in that order.
Good luck. It sucks, so much, all around.
posted by armeowda at 10:23 PM on October 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
the way they cornered us
This IS a concrete, menacing thing.
posted by brujita at 12:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This IS a concrete, menacing thing.
posted by brujita at 12:23 AM on October 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't know that telling off your friends, like Amy did, is that useful. You can't tell Carla how to accept feedback, but you can address what kind of feedback you give her, if it's even your place. She thinks some of her friends' behavior is unacceptable, but not outside the bounds of what she'd consider when deciding if he's a reasonable party guest. That's fine if it's her party, because people could leave. It's not cool when it's someone else's party, and she seems to acknowledge that.
There's the tendency to assume anything bad that happened can be put on the malcontents who arrived, but I'd resist that unless there's a particular reason not to. I'd check to make sure the guy who was blackout drunk is ok, but I don't think it's fair to assume he was drugged unless there's something else we don't know. Maybe he's been that drunk before but everything was chill so he didn't get aggressive, maybe there were other circumstances you don't know about. But putting his behavior fully on the uninvited guests is probably wrong.
Any gathering with a number of people, especially if they're all drinking, can get out of hand. I think the answer here is to take that into account when planning gatherings. Have Amy and Barbara hosted parties before?
posted by mikeh at 11:40 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]