Fiancé resents having to write a letter (vows)in advance of our wedding.
October 19, 2017 9:19 AM Subscribe
My fiancé and I aren't very traditional, but we are deeply in love and devoted to one another and have a good relationship all around. Marriage wasn't really on our minds until this summer when we decided to marry to legalise his emigration to my home country so we could continue to be together. However, I also made it clear to him that even if we were doing this for the visa, that the marriage was important to me, and I asked him one night that he write me a letter about what our impending marriage means to him. I guess I was asking for vows.
This to me, was very important. The idea is that I would write them too, but because while I have indeed expressed my thoughts and fears about the wedding very openly, he has been much more quiet on the subject and so I simply asked that he take the initiative. But as time passed he never indicated anything else about it. When I reminded him about it again a few months later, I was a little tipsy and was a bit upset that he hadn't mentioned it or written it. I hadn't given him a deadline because I trusted he would write the thing, but I said that I didn't want to ask him again because it was humiliating for me to nag him about something that was so meaningful to me. Now, our marriage is a month away. Last night we got into a fight and told him that his not having written me this letter was hurting me. I asked him simply if he could write me this letter before I visit him where he lives (in another city) this weekend. He responded to me that he had assumed the letter was not a serious request, confounding me. He then said that the letter was "an assignment" and a sort of chimera that I am using to extort him emotionally. I suppose that at this point it has indeed turned into a monster that I was never intending it to be, with me feeling guilty for having asked for it. At the same time, I also feel that his disregard for my request has hurt me even more. As a result what had first been a simple request on my part has morphed into some sort of ultimatum. I will add that we are having a very low-key wedding in the courthouse with the nuclear family only, and in addition to our own google-doc marriage contract that details household details and the like, this request for letters is practically the only ceremonial thing involved. I didn't phrase the letters as "vows" because I didn't necessarily need that from him. But I did make it clear that I needed this letter from him. Now, his heel-dragging on this is making me feel miserable. I feel like I am pressuring and coercing him to produce something that should be written out of love. I am usually ok with asking for the things I need, why do I feel so miserable and demanding for having requested this? I also realize now that I should have taken the initiative and written my own letter first, but I also, deep down inside, didn't want that. As an outspoken person I am very very vocal about how I feel, but it can get exhausting being the only one "speaking" sometimes, so I wanted, really badly, for him to simply initiate this. On the one hand I feel miserable like I am forcing him to say he loves me and cares about me but on the other hand I have simply been honest with him about what I needed.
This to me, was very important. The idea is that I would write them too, but because while I have indeed expressed my thoughts and fears about the wedding very openly, he has been much more quiet on the subject and so I simply asked that he take the initiative. But as time passed he never indicated anything else about it. When I reminded him about it again a few months later, I was a little tipsy and was a bit upset that he hadn't mentioned it or written it. I hadn't given him a deadline because I trusted he would write the thing, but I said that I didn't want to ask him again because it was humiliating for me to nag him about something that was so meaningful to me. Now, our marriage is a month away. Last night we got into a fight and told him that his not having written me this letter was hurting me. I asked him simply if he could write me this letter before I visit him where he lives (in another city) this weekend. He responded to me that he had assumed the letter was not a serious request, confounding me. He then said that the letter was "an assignment" and a sort of chimera that I am using to extort him emotionally. I suppose that at this point it has indeed turned into a monster that I was never intending it to be, with me feeling guilty for having asked for it. At the same time, I also feel that his disregard for my request has hurt me even more. As a result what had first been a simple request on my part has morphed into some sort of ultimatum. I will add that we are having a very low-key wedding in the courthouse with the nuclear family only, and in addition to our own google-doc marriage contract that details household details and the like, this request for letters is practically the only ceremonial thing involved. I didn't phrase the letters as "vows" because I didn't necessarily need that from him. But I did make it clear that I needed this letter from him. Now, his heel-dragging on this is making me feel miserable. I feel like I am pressuring and coercing him to produce something that should be written out of love. I am usually ok with asking for the things I need, why do I feel so miserable and demanding for having requested this? I also realize now that I should have taken the initiative and written my own letter first, but I also, deep down inside, didn't want that. As an outspoken person I am very very vocal about how I feel, but it can get exhausting being the only one "speaking" sometimes, so I wanted, really badly, for him to simply initiate this. On the one hand I feel miserable like I am forcing him to say he loves me and cares about me but on the other hand I have simply been honest with him about what I needed.
I asked him one night that he write me a letter about what our impending marriage means to him. I guess I was asking for vows.
I'll let more marriage-experienced people tackle the substance, but I just want to note that the two things above are quite different requests.
posted by rhizome at 9:41 AM on October 19, 2017 [30 favorites]
I'll let more marriage-experienced people tackle the substance, but I just want to note that the two things above are quite different requests.
posted by rhizome at 9:41 AM on October 19, 2017 [30 favorites]
Agreed with rhizome. I'm sorry that your fiancé is being a jerk about this, and it doesn't excuse his behavior, but I do think the requests are really different. If I were your fiancé, I would find a request for vows to be more understandable (and less daunting) than a letter. Perhaps try explaining that's what you want?
posted by ferret branca at 9:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 9:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Your marriage doesn’t mean anything to him.
Ask him what you mean to him and really listen.
posted by SyraCarol at 9:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [25 favorites]
Ask him what you mean to him and really listen.
posted by SyraCarol at 9:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [25 favorites]
He definitely is being a jerk about this. He knows full well this request was serious and important to you and is trying to deflect. Not cool. But, that being said, some people are not comfortable with expressing themselves in writing this way. Could that be what's going on, and if so, is there another way he can express the types of sentiments you're looking for that would make him feel more comfortable expressing himself but still communicate what you need to hear from him?
posted by capricorn at 9:47 AM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 9:47 AM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
You know, a lot of people hate to write and stress out over writing assignments. And I agree that a love letter and vows are really two different things, so maybe this wasn't the clearest assignment in the world. So it's understandable how a request like this might feel to him like a burden.
The concerning thing is not that he doesn't want to write the letter--it's how he's treating you. He could have admitted his negative feelings, and either sucked it up or tried to find another way for you to get the validation you're looking for.
Instead he dismissed your request, blamed you for manipulating him, and is escalating the whole thing into a big ultimatum. If this is typical of how he responds to your expressions of emotional need, please consider whether you want a lifetime of this kind of treatment.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:54 AM on October 19, 2017 [38 favorites]
The concerning thing is not that he doesn't want to write the letter--it's how he's treating you. He could have admitted his negative feelings, and either sucked it up or tried to find another way for you to get the validation you're looking for.
Instead he dismissed your request, blamed you for manipulating him, and is escalating the whole thing into a big ultimatum. If this is typical of how he responds to your expressions of emotional need, please consider whether you want a lifetime of this kind of treatment.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:54 AM on October 19, 2017 [38 favorites]
Generally when you get a reaction like that from someone, it's one of two things: they're defensive because you're getting close to a lie or obfuscation, OR they're having an anxiety reaction, probably not because they have done or are doing anything wrong but because it's not their comfort zone.
Probably if you'd said "I'd really like us to write our own vows, what do you think?" and turned this into a conversation, this would have gone better. But if what you actually want is for him to write you a private letter telling you everything he so far has chosen not to tell you about his feelings about you, I don't know if it's even fair to drop that on someone even if that's what you want, but it IS fair for you to decide that receiving that kind of communication is a dealbreaker in your relationship, marriage or no.
Ultimatums delivered to get you what you want, rather than information requested so that you can decide whether you can or cannot accept that situation, are rarely effective. Manipulating him is not okay, deciding that you have to leave because he cannot offer what you want is an appropriate boundary you can enforce in your life. It may be that you come to understand this isn't his way of expressing his feelings, but he does so in other ways that you can learn to appreciate better. It may be that you come to understand that he is emotionally a little limited and you're gonna get what he can give and that's it, and that's acceptable to you.
It's not "right" or "wrong" for you to want this, but you aren't necessarily owed this information in such a specific format. That said, your relationship has a lot less promise for a long run if you aren't getting your emotional needs met and he's not even interested in at least having a better, richer means of two-way communication about feelings, whether he's very very good at it or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:03 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
Probably if you'd said "I'd really like us to write our own vows, what do you think?" and turned this into a conversation, this would have gone better. But if what you actually want is for him to write you a private letter telling you everything he so far has chosen not to tell you about his feelings about you, I don't know if it's even fair to drop that on someone even if that's what you want, but it IS fair for you to decide that receiving that kind of communication is a dealbreaker in your relationship, marriage or no.
Ultimatums delivered to get you what you want, rather than information requested so that you can decide whether you can or cannot accept that situation, are rarely effective. Manipulating him is not okay, deciding that you have to leave because he cannot offer what you want is an appropriate boundary you can enforce in your life. It may be that you come to understand this isn't his way of expressing his feelings, but he does so in other ways that you can learn to appreciate better. It may be that you come to understand that he is emotionally a little limited and you're gonna get what he can give and that's it, and that's acceptable to you.
It's not "right" or "wrong" for you to want this, but you aren't necessarily owed this information in such a specific format. That said, your relationship has a lot less promise for a long run if you aren't getting your emotional needs met and he's not even interested in at least having a better, richer means of two-way communication about feelings, whether he's very very good at it or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:03 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
I generally do not like to dig into people's past questions before responding to Asks, but your post had some red flags in it for me that made me want to get some context. Is this the same guy who was abusive to you a year ago?
I think what you asked for was very simple and very reasonable. Whether or not they were "vows", it doesn't matter - it sounds like you made it quite clear what you wanted and why. And this was not an inconsequential request, like asking him to pick up milk at the grocery store. You are GETTING MARRIED; it's perfectly ok to want to discuss your feelings in a substantive way. It's the healthy, responsible to do - to say, hey, why are we doing this? What are we agreeing to? Let's make sure we both feel the same way before making this huge commitment.
So the fact that he disregarded your request, then later belittled it, is very alarming.
I also realize now that I should have taken the initiative and written my own letter first
No, there's no reason for you to feel this way. You already took initiative: you ASKED for what you wanted, like an adult. And though you never set it up as a test, it turned out to be one -- and he failed it, spectacularly. At the very LEAST he should have communicated his feelings to you maturely: "i'm uncomfortable with this request for X reasons/I'm a shitty writer/I'd rather say vows out loud/I don't do well under pressure"....SOMETHING. But he is ignoring your emotional needs AND making you feel bad about it on top of that! I honestly don't think you should marry him right now. You should view this as a bright red warning sign. Put on the brakes, and reevaluate this relationship.
posted by yawper at 10:08 AM on October 19, 2017 [29 favorites]
I think what you asked for was very simple and very reasonable. Whether or not they were "vows", it doesn't matter - it sounds like you made it quite clear what you wanted and why. And this was not an inconsequential request, like asking him to pick up milk at the grocery store. You are GETTING MARRIED; it's perfectly ok to want to discuss your feelings in a substantive way. It's the healthy, responsible to do - to say, hey, why are we doing this? What are we agreeing to? Let's make sure we both feel the same way before making this huge commitment.
So the fact that he disregarded your request, then later belittled it, is very alarming.
I also realize now that I should have taken the initiative and written my own letter first
No, there's no reason for you to feel this way. You already took initiative: you ASKED for what you wanted, like an adult. And though you never set it up as a test, it turned out to be one -- and he failed it, spectacularly. At the very LEAST he should have communicated his feelings to you maturely: "i'm uncomfortable with this request for X reasons/I'm a shitty writer/I'd rather say vows out loud/I don't do well under pressure"....SOMETHING. But he is ignoring your emotional needs AND making you feel bad about it on top of that! I honestly don't think you should marry him right now. You should view this as a bright red warning sign. Put on the brakes, and reevaluate this relationship.
posted by yawper at 10:08 AM on October 19, 2017 [29 favorites]
I'm going to approach this generously and answer under the assumption that he's overwhelmed by the request, either practically or emotionally, and he's being a jerk about it* because doesn't have good emotional tools for expressing his overwhelmedness to you (which hopefully is something he's willing to work on in the future).
Is there another way you could get what you want from him besides this letter format, some kind of compromise? Maybe the two of you could sit down together and both go through a list of questions/prompts about what your marriage means, so that he doesn't feel like he's putting himself out there without the same buy-in from you? But if the letter is the only thing that can give you what you want from him, and he won't write the letter, you guys are at an impasse. Maybe you have some serious differences in your communication styles.
I think this kind of thing is really hard for a lot of men (and women too, but we tend to push through because we feel like it's Our Job). I don't think you're wrong to ask but I've seen a lot of men (including my own fiancé) resist and procrastinate about doing stuff like this. It's super-frustrating, but not everyone is good at/about expressing their feelings (and men tend to be worse at it than women).
* I'm actually not 100% clear on what he actually said vs. how you felt about what he said, and how much time he has actually spent considering the question of the letter vs. how much time you have spent agonizing over What It Means that he hasn't written the letter. "Extort" is a pretty loaded word to use with a partner, though - that one worries me a lot.
posted by mskyle at 10:13 AM on October 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Is there another way you could get what you want from him besides this letter format, some kind of compromise? Maybe the two of you could sit down together and both go through a list of questions/prompts about what your marriage means, so that he doesn't feel like he's putting himself out there without the same buy-in from you? But if the letter is the only thing that can give you what you want from him, and he won't write the letter, you guys are at an impasse. Maybe you have some serious differences in your communication styles.
I think this kind of thing is really hard for a lot of men (and women too, but we tend to push through because we feel like it's Our Job). I don't think you're wrong to ask but I've seen a lot of men (including my own fiancé) resist and procrastinate about doing stuff like this. It's super-frustrating, but not everyone is good at/about expressing their feelings (and men tend to be worse at it than women).
* I'm actually not 100% clear on what he actually said vs. how you felt about what he said, and how much time he has actually spent considering the question of the letter vs. how much time you have spent agonizing over What It Means that he hasn't written the letter. "Extort" is a pretty loaded word to use with a partner, though - that one worries me a lot.
posted by mskyle at 10:13 AM on October 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
I do think your history with this guy is relevant, because you've had two questions which express doubts about your relationship, you haven't been together that long and you've been long distance for a significant amount of that time. If you had a great, time-tested relationship, I would feel like maybe you should re-think your request - could you see a counselor together, or dedicate an afternoon to talking this through, since required writing about feelings is harder than talking things through for many people. But since this guy doesn't seem to have treated you especially well or have been especially supportive in the year and a half of your relationship, I think that this is a red flag on the whole marriage idea.
Do you think he is going to be a good partner, given your history? How will you deal with the difficulties of divorce and immigration if you break up? Will you be able to disentangle yourself from this guy? If you were in the US, a marriage of convenience to a sorta-okay partner would create a LOT of complications.
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on October 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Do you think he is going to be a good partner, given your history? How will you deal with the difficulties of divorce and immigration if you break up? Will you be able to disentangle yourself from this guy? If you were in the US, a marriage of convenience to a sorta-okay partner would create a LOT of complications.
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on October 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi Yawper and Frowner, thanks for your concern, if you are looking at my past posts, it's not the same guy. I should have made that clear in this question. This is a new relationship started at the same time the other one was falling apart. The newness is partially why I'm nervous. At the same time for so many other things, this guy is very dependable and we are a good team in other respects.
Yes, Lyn Never, I think he's having an anxiety reaction more than anything.
I agree with what some of you have said, I should have been more clear about what I wanted. I guess I never said vows. I really wanted a letter but to me the two seem sortof interchangeable on a symbolic level even if they aren't technically. I just wanted something.
Mkskyle, he said I was giving him an "assignment" and an "ultimatum" and that he felt like he was being pressured and I am the one who feels like I am extorting him and I feel terrible now. I think your generous interpretion is correct. He is not a bad person but he did really flagrantly disregard and dismiss the seriousness of my request. He said that he did not take it seriously, and that's what hurts most. I think personally, that he is engaging in some magical thinking where he is doing the foot-dragging/ procrastination thing and in so doing he tried to magically make the request disappear!
posted by jacobnayar at 10:23 AM on October 19, 2017
Yes, Lyn Never, I think he's having an anxiety reaction more than anything.
I agree with what some of you have said, I should have been more clear about what I wanted. I guess I never said vows. I really wanted a letter but to me the two seem sortof interchangeable on a symbolic level even if they aren't technically. I just wanted something.
Mkskyle, he said I was giving him an "assignment" and an "ultimatum" and that he felt like he was being pressured and I am the one who feels like I am extorting him and I feel terrible now. I think your generous interpretion is correct. He is not a bad person but he did really flagrantly disregard and dismiss the seriousness of my request. He said that he did not take it seriously, and that's what hurts most. I think personally, that he is engaging in some magical thinking where he is doing the foot-dragging/ procrastination thing and in so doing he tried to magically make the request disappear!
posted by jacobnayar at 10:23 AM on October 19, 2017
I think it's weird that you asked him to provide you with "a letter". It is quite literally a one sided assignment that you gave him.
You indicated that you would also write one, but it doesn't sound like you have, or that you've been clear about the fact that you intend this to be a joint exercise. It would be completely reasonable if the two of you "wrote vows for each other". What you've described doesn't translate to that clearly at all.
posted by so fucking future at 10:31 AM on October 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
You indicated that you would also write one, but it doesn't sound like you have, or that you've been clear about the fact that you intend this to be a joint exercise. It would be completely reasonable if the two of you "wrote vows for each other". What you've described doesn't translate to that clearly at all.
posted by so fucking future at 10:31 AM on October 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
There's a thing you're doing here that I think of as skipping the problem and going straight to a (symbolic) solution. When I find myself doing this -- fixating on a seemingly trivial thing to a disproportionate degree -- sometimes it's because the problem that I'm trying to solve is actually quite painful or difficult. My brain would just prefer to skip over all that emotional difficulty and instead identify a "solution" which then becomes the repository for all the feelings.
In order to puzzle this out, you're going to have to let go of the "solution" for a moment and really consider: what is the problem you're trying to solve with this letter? What are the uncomfortable feelings this "solution" allows you to skip over? Here are some of the fears I think I'm hearing from you:
- Can I rely on him? Is he really there for me? Is he good on his word?
- Is he really committed to me and this marriage? Is this marriage as meaningful to him as it is to me?
- Does he really love me? Does he love me in a way that makes me feel safe/healthy/happy/supported?
- Am I always going to have to carry the burden of emotional labor in our relationship? Am I always going to feel like I'm having to pry emotional commitment out of him?
- And/or maybe some other stuff, too.
I don't think these fears are necessarily a sign that everything is doomed. It might just be that you've had some difficult past experiences that have left you with some old fears that are coming up now. If the letter is now carrying all of these fears, then no wonder it feels incredibly loaded and scary to both of you. Your partner may be (correctly) intuiting that there's no way to write this letter in a way that would satisfy you, because it is carrying way more than one letter's worth of expectations. Either way, your best bet is to face those fears head-on.
So, first thing: I'd advise that you sit with yourself and think about what you're trying to solve (and what fears you're trying to push away) with this letter. Put aside thoughts of the letter for now, and consider, as objectively as you can -- has your partner demonstrated that he loves you, or has his love felt contingent and precarious? Has he been there for you, or has he let you down? Has this relationship been healthy or unhealthy for you? Have you felt strengthened by him, or drained? Has he been kind to you, or has he belittled and discouraged you? Look at the five-legged table metaphor -- how many legs does this relationship have? Talking this over with a therapist and/or a trusted, even-keeled friend can also help you gain perspective.
If you find that there's really a problem in this relationship -- this person really isn't right for you, you're experiencing a deep sense of nope, and the letter has just been a roundabout way of dealing with that -- then you may need to put the wedding on pause and/or think about calling it off. If that comes to pass, you've got to trust that you'll be able to deal with it. It'll be hard and painful, but you'll be able to deal with it. And if that's where you are, the letter will be beside the point; if you don't trust that this person loves you and is healthy for you, then no letter will prove otherwise. Be brave -- if you know in your heart that this is not a good relationship for you, it's better to deal with that sooner rather than later.
If you find that the problem is mostly in your fears themselves, not in your partner -- then I advise that you try to handle those fears directly rather than indirectly through the letter. Talk to your partner about it and ask for help, but don't make it your partner's primary responsibility to solve your feelings for you. "Hey partner, I've been really fixated on this letter and I'm going to try to let it go. That said, the marriage has really woken up some of my fears about X, Y, and Z. I'm going to try to take a step back and deal with those fears directly instead of putting it on you. That said, it would really help me if you would do X for me.'" Maybe that X is a big hug, or some reassuring words; maybe it's help with the labor, emotional and otherwise, that comes with a marriage and a big life change; maybe it's something else. You can absolutely ask for help and you can certainly expect your partner to be kind; just be as kind and upfront as you can.
It's very important that, before you pick one of these paths, you really try to get to your own true feelings behind the letter request. Either way, I think it's genuinely worthwhile to step back from the letter and focus on the feelings behind the letter -- that will give you the best possible chance of clearing up the distortion field and getting some perspective on what actions you need to take next.
posted by ourobouros at 10:32 AM on October 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
In order to puzzle this out, you're going to have to let go of the "solution" for a moment and really consider: what is the problem you're trying to solve with this letter? What are the uncomfortable feelings this "solution" allows you to skip over? Here are some of the fears I think I'm hearing from you:
- Can I rely on him? Is he really there for me? Is he good on his word?
- Is he really committed to me and this marriage? Is this marriage as meaningful to him as it is to me?
- Does he really love me? Does he love me in a way that makes me feel safe/healthy/happy/supported?
- Am I always going to have to carry the burden of emotional labor in our relationship? Am I always going to feel like I'm having to pry emotional commitment out of him?
- And/or maybe some other stuff, too.
I don't think these fears are necessarily a sign that everything is doomed. It might just be that you've had some difficult past experiences that have left you with some old fears that are coming up now. If the letter is now carrying all of these fears, then no wonder it feels incredibly loaded and scary to both of you. Your partner may be (correctly) intuiting that there's no way to write this letter in a way that would satisfy you, because it is carrying way more than one letter's worth of expectations. Either way, your best bet is to face those fears head-on.
So, first thing: I'd advise that you sit with yourself and think about what you're trying to solve (and what fears you're trying to push away) with this letter. Put aside thoughts of the letter for now, and consider, as objectively as you can -- has your partner demonstrated that he loves you, or has his love felt contingent and precarious? Has he been there for you, or has he let you down? Has this relationship been healthy or unhealthy for you? Have you felt strengthened by him, or drained? Has he been kind to you, or has he belittled and discouraged you? Look at the five-legged table metaphor -- how many legs does this relationship have? Talking this over with a therapist and/or a trusted, even-keeled friend can also help you gain perspective.
If you find that there's really a problem in this relationship -- this person really isn't right for you, you're experiencing a deep sense of nope, and the letter has just been a roundabout way of dealing with that -- then you may need to put the wedding on pause and/or think about calling it off. If that comes to pass, you've got to trust that you'll be able to deal with it. It'll be hard and painful, but you'll be able to deal with it. And if that's where you are, the letter will be beside the point; if you don't trust that this person loves you and is healthy for you, then no letter will prove otherwise. Be brave -- if you know in your heart that this is not a good relationship for you, it's better to deal with that sooner rather than later.
If you find that the problem is mostly in your fears themselves, not in your partner -- then I advise that you try to handle those fears directly rather than indirectly through the letter. Talk to your partner about it and ask for help, but don't make it your partner's primary responsibility to solve your feelings for you. "Hey partner, I've been really fixated on this letter and I'm going to try to let it go. That said, the marriage has really woken up some of my fears about X, Y, and Z. I'm going to try to take a step back and deal with those fears directly instead of putting it on you. That said, it would really help me if you would do X for me.'" Maybe that X is a big hug, or some reassuring words; maybe it's help with the labor, emotional and otherwise, that comes with a marriage and a big life change; maybe it's something else. You can absolutely ask for help and you can certainly expect your partner to be kind; just be as kind and upfront as you can.
It's very important that, before you pick one of these paths, you really try to get to your own true feelings behind the letter request. Either way, I think it's genuinely worthwhile to step back from the letter and focus on the feelings behind the letter -- that will give you the best possible chance of clearing up the distortion field and getting some perspective on what actions you need to take next.
posted by ourobouros at 10:32 AM on October 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
Response by poster: It's true. I think that the whole point was that I was always talking about things and expressing my thoughts about the marriage and he never did. This was really right after we decided to get hitched. It was simply something I wanted from him . I told him I would also write a letter but like I said I wanted him to take initiative in this, and maybe that's where I went wrong. I think it's partially my fault for not having simply asked for vows.
posted by jacobnayar at 10:35 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jacobnayar at 10:35 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
My wife asked me to write our wedding ceremony four months before our wedding.
When she found that I had not made progress on this two months before our wedding we got into a serious conflict. and, while our marriage is very good and strong, this conflict is still present between us: why didn't I do the thing that she asked me to do that meant so much to her (and that I agreed that I would do.)
I am in no way an expert on what this all means or how to do these things, but. But. I don't think that your asking him to do this was a reasonable request and I think that your upset that he hadn't done it is unreasonable as well. I am sorry to convey this to you as I'm guessing it is unwelcome.
In my personal experience, the process I went through with my wife preceding our marriage was consciously or unconsciously a test, made by my wife for me to see if I really wanted to be married. If it wasn't when it first came up it certainly was by the time it became a fight. And it still is. It is a test that I failed and it comes up. And I believe that she thinks about it much more often than it comes up.
And this simply isn't fair. So, my advice to you is to focus on why a letter is so important to you. Examine this issue within yourself. Talk to a good therapist about it. It is your responsibility to know what is driving this, where the energy and the upset is and to understand it. This could be a very valuable learning about yourself and how you work in partnership going into your wedding.
And then drop it. Go through the work required to let. it. go. Do not sabotage your wedding with something like this. If you don't want to get married (and it sounds to me like you might not, which is a natural response to pending nuptials) then make your mind up within yourself in the full light of day. If you really do, then getting into the discipline of letting things go is a very good use of time.
I'm sending you love and empathy and compassion. Partnership is the best thing and the hardest thing.
Fwiw: I wrote our wedding ceremony and I think that it was the best wedding that I've ever attended and she has said the same without prompting. There was magic in the room. And yet: I believe that she thinks more about her perception of my reluctance to write it than about what finally came to pass. Point is: he cannot write you the letter that was discussed now. What he will write you is and will live on as something else. Be generous.
posted by n9 at 10:37 AM on October 19, 2017 [31 favorites]
When she found that I had not made progress on this two months before our wedding we got into a serious conflict. and, while our marriage is very good and strong, this conflict is still present between us: why didn't I do the thing that she asked me to do that meant so much to her (and that I agreed that I would do.)
I am in no way an expert on what this all means or how to do these things, but. But. I don't think that your asking him to do this was a reasonable request and I think that your upset that he hadn't done it is unreasonable as well. I am sorry to convey this to you as I'm guessing it is unwelcome.
In my personal experience, the process I went through with my wife preceding our marriage was consciously or unconsciously a test, made by my wife for me to see if I really wanted to be married. If it wasn't when it first came up it certainly was by the time it became a fight. And it still is. It is a test that I failed and it comes up. And I believe that she thinks about it much more often than it comes up.
And this simply isn't fair. So, my advice to you is to focus on why a letter is so important to you. Examine this issue within yourself. Talk to a good therapist about it. It is your responsibility to know what is driving this, where the energy and the upset is and to understand it. This could be a very valuable learning about yourself and how you work in partnership going into your wedding.
And then drop it. Go through the work required to let. it. go. Do not sabotage your wedding with something like this. If you don't want to get married (and it sounds to me like you might not, which is a natural response to pending nuptials) then make your mind up within yourself in the full light of day. If you really do, then getting into the discipline of letting things go is a very good use of time.
I'm sending you love and empathy and compassion. Partnership is the best thing and the hardest thing.
Fwiw: I wrote our wedding ceremony and I think that it was the best wedding that I've ever attended and she has said the same without prompting. There was magic in the room. And yet: I believe that she thinks more about her perception of my reluctance to write it than about what finally came to pass. Point is: he cannot write you the letter that was discussed now. What he will write you is and will live on as something else. Be generous.
posted by n9 at 10:37 AM on October 19, 2017 [31 favorites]
I think you sense that you are more all in on this relationship than he is and you thought this letter would assuage your fears. Instead, he's continued to show you that this wedding isn't actually that important to him and he only views it as a thing to do for practical reasons. You're allowed to want to marry someone who is enthusiastic in a visible way about you and your wedding. I don't know if this guy is those things.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:39 AM on October 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:39 AM on October 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Ourobouros, I responded before reading your brilliant post. I think it is incredibly wise. I do think this letter has taken on this symbolic importance and indeed behind all of this is the question "can I count on him."
N9 I think you make a good point, but it was not putting a responsibility like the entire ceremony in his hands. I just wanted a love letter of sorts. Honestly. And yes part of it, as Ourobouros has kind of also made me realise too, is that it has turned into a bit of a bigger thing, a symbolic thing. You use the word test. I think that maybe that's putting too much forethought in what I was doing. I wanted to see him take emotional initiative. I didn't mean to test him. In the end,he ended up proving himself incapable/ unwilling to do this simple thing and it made me feel de-valued.
Im Not Even: yes, that is my fear.
posted by jacobnayar at 10:41 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
N9 I think you make a good point, but it was not putting a responsibility like the entire ceremony in his hands. I just wanted a love letter of sorts. Honestly. And yes part of it, as Ourobouros has kind of also made me realise too, is that it has turned into a bit of a bigger thing, a symbolic thing. You use the word test. I think that maybe that's putting too much forethought in what I was doing. I wanted to see him take emotional initiative. I didn't mean to test him. In the end,he ended up proving himself incapable/ unwilling to do this simple thing and it made me feel de-valued.
Im Not Even: yes, that is my fear.
posted by jacobnayar at 10:41 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's true. I think that the whole point was that I was always talking about things and expressing my thoughts about the marriage and he never did. This was really right after we decided to get hitched. It was simply something I wanted from him . I told him I would also write a letter but like I said I wanted him to take initiative in this, and maybe that's where I went wrong. I think it's partially my fault for not having simply asked for vows.
I'm sorry, but you should not be waiting until the moment you are getting married to hear things from your partner that will satisfy whatever it is that is driving your request. My wife said some really wonderful things when we were at the altar but there were zero surprises or things that I hadn't heard before in some other fashion.
You need to start talking NOW about the things that you are expecting to get in this letter - to be honest, the idea of a writing exercise of this magnitude gives me anxiety, but the expectation that your future spouse is going to talk to you about what marriage and commitment to you will mean is a basic marriage requirement.
You should be talking about that up until the point where you actually decide to get married - to make sure you're on the same page on things like what commitment means, how children will/will not occur, how emotional labour is divided, where you'll live and what you'll do, etc. If he's either unable or unwilling to have those conversations to make you feel like you can count on him, you have bigger problems to solve than the letter.
posted by notorious medium at 10:43 AM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry, but you should not be waiting until the moment you are getting married to hear things from your partner that will satisfy whatever it is that is driving your request. My wife said some really wonderful things when we were at the altar but there were zero surprises or things that I hadn't heard before in some other fashion.
You need to start talking NOW about the things that you are expecting to get in this letter - to be honest, the idea of a writing exercise of this magnitude gives me anxiety, but the expectation that your future spouse is going to talk to you about what marriage and commitment to you will mean is a basic marriage requirement.
You should be talking about that up until the point where you actually decide to get married - to make sure you're on the same page on things like what commitment means, how children will/will not occur, how emotional labour is divided, where you'll live and what you'll do, etc. If he's either unable or unwilling to have those conversations to make you feel like you can count on him, you have bigger problems to solve than the letter.
posted by notorious medium at 10:43 AM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also you seem to know very much what you need from him but you keep obscuring it. You wanted a letter, now you realize you should have said vows, but you've repeated here a couple of times already - what you actually want, even need, is for him to express that you and this marriage are actually important. Why are you bringing pen and paper into this? If he can't express it out loud, why do you think he'd do better in a letter. Maybe go back to him and say "Your steadiness and dependability is something that I love dearly about you, I realize these also come with a stoic-ness or reluctance to talk openly about your emotions. As we move to this next step I really need to hear how you're feeling about me, your move, our marriage, and our future. I'm sorry I was unclear before with the whole letter business, I just thought it would be easier for you, but maybe that's not true." Then it's up to him to either do the thing or not do the thing, and up to you how to feel about that.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:47 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 10:47 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
In the nicest way possible, are you sure that this wedding and marriage mean the same thing to him as to you? You said this was a pretty new relationship.
I also made it clear to him that even if we were doing this for the visa, that the marriage was important to me
You don't say what his response to this was or if he indicated that he felt the same way.
posted by windykites at 10:51 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also made it clear to him that even if we were doing this for the visa, that the marriage was important to me
You don't say what his response to this was or if he indicated that he felt the same way.
posted by windykites at 10:51 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Notorious Medium: you are so right. The thing is he has been cool with an actual hum-drum marriage contract that includes kid stuff, finances, home buying, sex, polyamory, you name it!! Of course, I drafted this contract myself. I am often taking the initiative on these conversations and on emotional issues as well, so this letter was supposed to be something more, which is why I was thinking about it in the same category as vows.
Im not supposed to be here today: Very wise. You're right that I am over-priveleging the medium of the letter and the format. At the same time the formality of the letter for me was important, it was part of concretizing this important ritual. It wasn't supposed to be this hard though and his derision of this request is what has made it into a drama.
Windykites: He has said this more or less, but I sometimes have doubts. His parents just seperated after a very long relationship in which they were NOT married. I don't know. I just had trouble talking to him about lifetime commitments and marriage and thought a letter might be an easier mode of expression for him.
I will add more to this : in the past he has resisted certain "adulting"-related stuff like making plans in advance, etc but we have communicated on it and he has made really beautiful efforts at trying to improve and it has smoothed over a lot of things. I think this might be a sort of immature reaction and also a pride issue since he feels humiliated by this task now. This was NEVER my intention, which is why it makes me sad.
posted by jacobnayar at 10:54 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Im not supposed to be here today: Very wise. You're right that I am over-priveleging the medium of the letter and the format. At the same time the formality of the letter for me was important, it was part of concretizing this important ritual. It wasn't supposed to be this hard though and his derision of this request is what has made it into a drama.
Windykites: He has said this more or less, but I sometimes have doubts. His parents just seperated after a very long relationship in which they were NOT married. I don't know. I just had trouble talking to him about lifetime commitments and marriage and thought a letter might be an easier mode of expression for him.
I will add more to this : in the past he has resisted certain "adulting"-related stuff like making plans in advance, etc but we have communicated on it and he has made really beautiful efforts at trying to improve and it has smoothed over a lot of things. I think this might be a sort of immature reaction and also a pride issue since he feels humiliated by this task now. This was NEVER my intention, which is why it makes me sad.
posted by jacobnayar at 10:54 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
The letter you asked for was to help you understand how his motivations for marrying you were balanced between the practical (immigrating) and the personal (loving you). You asked for this in writing because you'd already invited him to tell you orally, and he didn't convey these important feelings that way, either. His response tells you it's mostly the former, and only a little the latter. If you asked him the same question in six other media the answer would be the same.
I'm so sorry, but I think you should not marry this man, now that you know this. He will not bear his share of the emotional labor, and you will always know he didn't marry you for love. This marriage is important to you, so you will always hurt inside knowing that.
Divorce is painful, expensive, and legally relevant in all sorts of ways you won't know about until you go through one. And you can't marry him without being willing to go through a divorce, because this marriage isn't set up to be a lifelong love.
I'm so sorry, and I realize that this means the end of this relationship. But it's going to end either way, as this man cannot or will not carry that emotional load, and instead has shown he'll gaslight when he's asked to. He can't even write you a love letter before marrying you ... that's just weak.
Don't marry a man you're going to divorce. Trust me. That's just so absolutely painful I'm crying thinking about it. Please.
posted by Capri at 11:13 AM on October 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
I'm so sorry, but I think you should not marry this man, now that you know this. He will not bear his share of the emotional labor, and you will always know he didn't marry you for love. This marriage is important to you, so you will always hurt inside knowing that.
Divorce is painful, expensive, and legally relevant in all sorts of ways you won't know about until you go through one. And you can't marry him without being willing to go through a divorce, because this marriage isn't set up to be a lifelong love.
I'm so sorry, and I realize that this means the end of this relationship. But it's going to end either way, as this man cannot or will not carry that emotional load, and instead has shown he'll gaslight when he's asked to. He can't even write you a love letter before marrying you ... that's just weak.
Don't marry a man you're going to divorce. Trust me. That's just so absolutely painful I'm crying thinking about it. Please.
posted by Capri at 11:13 AM on October 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
our marriage is a month away
his heel dragging is making me feel miserable. [...] I feel miserable
These two things in the same question make me so sad.
I think there's a lot of value in what people upthread are saying about clarifying how you feel, giving him space to express himself in other ways, etc.
But please don't minimise how you feel. Postponing your wedding is less of a big deal than divorce. Whether you need time to talk to a therapist about your anxieties around communicating your needs, whether you need time for a bit of pre-marital couples counselling, or whether you need to give him time to consider how he wants to go into this marriage, there's no shame in taking that time.
Take the time you need. Enter a marriage when you're not miserable.
posted by greenish at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
his heel dragging is making me feel miserable. [...] I feel miserable
These two things in the same question make me so sad.
I think there's a lot of value in what people upthread are saying about clarifying how you feel, giving him space to express himself in other ways, etc.
But please don't minimise how you feel. Postponing your wedding is less of a big deal than divorce. Whether you need time to talk to a therapist about your anxieties around communicating your needs, whether you need time for a bit of pre-marital couples counselling, or whether you need to give him time to consider how he wants to go into this marriage, there's no shame in taking that time.
Take the time you need. Enter a marriage when you're not miserable.
posted by greenish at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
Possibility one: He is deeply devoted to you, but the whole "letter" thing makes him anxious, reminds him of school assignments, and he doesn't feel comfortable expressing feelings in text.
This can be worked through, with a couple of good conversations and you potentially reconsidering the format and so on.
Possibility two: He cares for you, but not enough to change his habits or deal with uncomfortable emotions, and certainly not enough to do something that's important to you but irrelevant to him if it causes him inconvenience or discomfort. And if you push him, he will insist that the problem is "you're making him feel bad," not "he refuses to do this thing for you." He doesn't ask you to do similar things for him, and therefor you are being unfair.
This is a recipe for a long, slow, painful slide into divorce.
It doesn't matter if he asks you to do similar things for him. Marriage is not a relationship where all the give-and-take has 1:1 equivalencies. A functional marriage involves both people striving to make the other comfortable, stable, and happy if that's possible.
Going into a wedding with an announcement of, "this thing you have asked me to do, that you made it clear was very important to you, is so odious to me that I refuse to even consider it - and I think so little of the request that I'm not even going to discuss my reasons with you" is a huge warning flag.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
This can be worked through, with a couple of good conversations and you potentially reconsidering the format and so on.
Possibility two: He cares for you, but not enough to change his habits or deal with uncomfortable emotions, and certainly not enough to do something that's important to you but irrelevant to him if it causes him inconvenience or discomfort. And if you push him, he will insist that the problem is "you're making him feel bad," not "he refuses to do this thing for you." He doesn't ask you to do similar things for him, and therefor you are being unfair.
This is a recipe for a long, slow, painful slide into divorce.
It doesn't matter if he asks you to do similar things for him. Marriage is not a relationship where all the give-and-take has 1:1 equivalencies. A functional marriage involves both people striving to make the other comfortable, stable, and happy if that's possible.
Going into a wedding with an announcement of, "this thing you have asked me to do, that you made it clear was very important to you, is so odious to me that I refuse to even consider it - and I think so little of the request that I'm not even going to discuss my reasons with you" is a huge warning flag.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:45 AM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
He responded to me that he had assumed the letter was not a serious request
This is not the behavior of a person I would want to spend my life with.
"I don't want to do that for reason X" said when asked .. This might sting but it's understandable.
"I didn't want to do this for reason X, I'm sorry I didn't tell you but I couldn't find a way to" said a month before the wedding.... ouch, what a fucker, ok we have a communication problem but let's talk.
Instead he lies it off like a middle schooler and tries some amateur hour gas-lighting bullshit. This is an awful way to communicate; below marriage grade. Does not meet minimum standards.
posted by French Fry at 12:34 PM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is not the behavior of a person I would want to spend my life with.
"I don't want to do that for reason X" said when asked .. This might sting but it's understandable.
"I didn't want to do this for reason X, I'm sorry I didn't tell you but I couldn't find a way to" said a month before the wedding.... ouch, what a fucker, ok we have a communication problem but let's talk.
Instead he lies it off like a middle schooler and tries some amateur hour gas-lighting bullshit. This is an awful way to communicate; below marriage grade. Does not meet minimum standards.
posted by French Fry at 12:34 PM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Worth noting - maybe his communication style just doesn't mesh with yours. But he doesn't need to be "a bad person" for you not not want to spend the rest of your life with someone who can't even tell you why your relationship is important to him.
I expect that's not exactly what you asked. But if your communication styles are so entirely different that he can't figure out a reasonable alternate interpretation to "letter about what our impending marriage means" that you would accept, then you're on pretty thin ground for being able to sort out any disagreements that arise in the next thirty years or more.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:33 PM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I expect that's not exactly what you asked. But if your communication styles are so entirely different that he can't figure out a reasonable alternate interpretation to "letter about what our impending marriage means" that you would accept, then you're on pretty thin ground for being able to sort out any disagreements that arise in the next thirty years or more.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:33 PM on October 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
If he has trouble "adulting"; if you are the one who is carrying all the water as regards to emotional stuff, what your marriage means/is about/your agreements/your vows; if he is blowing off your (IMO quite reasonable) letter request because he decided "it wasn't serious":
Do not, do NOT marry this man.
This is not a partnership. This is you doing all the work and settling for whatever crumbs he is willing or able to give you.
Please stop and consider what it is that feels like love to you in a situation where you are putting in far, far more care and effort than your partner is.
Your gut is telling you that something is wrong. Listen to it.
posted by Sublimity at 1:42 PM on October 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
Do not, do NOT marry this man.
This is not a partnership. This is you doing all the work and settling for whatever crumbs he is willing or able to give you.
Please stop and consider what it is that feels like love to you in a situation where you are putting in far, far more care and effort than your partner is.
Your gut is telling you that something is wrong. Listen to it.
posted by Sublimity at 1:42 PM on October 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
Uhh.. considering the fact that he's from another country / culture... is it possible that he just doesn't understand what that letter means to you?
(I come from a culture where writing vows isn't a thing and I'd probably need quite a bit of help to just understand how that looks like and what it should contain. That's not excusing him though - he should make a better effort.)
posted by mavrik at 1:55 PM on October 19, 2017
(I come from a culture where writing vows isn't a thing and I'd probably need quite a bit of help to just understand how that looks like and what it should contain. That's not excusing him though - he should make a better effort.)
posted by mavrik at 1:55 PM on October 19, 2017
He has said this more or less, but I sometimes have doubts... I...had trouble talking to him about lifetime commitments and marriage and thought a letter might be an easier mode of expression for him.
I have never been married but would hope most marriages are not built on a foundation of uncertainty about the others' level of commitment and an inability to communicate about lifetime commitments and marriage in general and one person being in it for a visa.
I don't know where you live, but here in Canada, if you sponsor someone you are financially responsible for them for three years. If they go on any kind of government assistance, you have to pay it back to the government. Plus, you could easily be on the hook for debts anyone accrues as your spouse.
You might want to consider postponing? I am not trying to cast aspersions on your boyfriend or call his motives into question but if you really love each other to marriage level of commitment, your relationship can handle being LD for a while, right?
posted by windykites at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I have never been married but would hope most marriages are not built on a foundation of uncertainty about the others' level of commitment and an inability to communicate about lifetime commitments and marriage in general and one person being in it for a visa.
I don't know where you live, but here in Canada, if you sponsor someone you are financially responsible for them for three years. If they go on any kind of government assistance, you have to pay it back to the government. Plus, you could easily be on the hook for debts anyone accrues as your spouse.
You might want to consider postponing? I am not trying to cast aspersions on your boyfriend or call his motives into question but if you really love each other to marriage level of commitment, your relationship can handle being LD for a while, right?
posted by windykites at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
> is it possible that he just doesn't understand what that letter means to you?
OP says: I said that I didn't want to ask him again because it was humiliating for me to nag him about something that was so meaningful to me. Now, our marriage is a month away. Last night we got into a fight and told him that his not having written me this letter was hurting me. I asked him simply if he could write me this letter before I visit him where he lives (in another city) this weekend. He responded to me that he had assumed the letter was not a serious request, confounding me.
No, this is not a case of, "he just didn't realize it was important." He may not understand why it's being requested, but that shouldn't matter - if he can't take an hour or two to write down Why I Want To Get Married To This Person, he's showing very solidly that he's not likely to comply with *any* requests that he doesn't personally believe are important.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on October 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
OP says: I said that I didn't want to ask him again because it was humiliating for me to nag him about something that was so meaningful to me. Now, our marriage is a month away. Last night we got into a fight and told him that his not having written me this letter was hurting me. I asked him simply if he could write me this letter before I visit him where he lives (in another city) this weekend. He responded to me that he had assumed the letter was not a serious request, confounding me.
No, this is not a case of, "he just didn't realize it was important." He may not understand why it's being requested, but that shouldn't matter - if he can't take an hour or two to write down Why I Want To Get Married To This Person, he's showing very solidly that he's not likely to comply with *any* requests that he doesn't personally believe are important.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on October 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
This feels very manipulative and assignment-y to me too. I think you should squarely face your own impetus for this and just ask him for what I assume the letter meant for you: reassurance that he is marrying you because he loves you and wants to spend his life with you, and not because it's a convenient entry visa.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:14 PM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:14 PM on October 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
If this person needs you for a visa and you are the only thing keeping them in the country and he STILL can't manage to maintain a ruse that he loves you when it's most critical, before you get married, I can't imagine what the relationship will look like when he doesn't have to pretend anymore because he got what he wanted. There is a reason you feel desperate for reassurance, and there's a reason he's refusing to give you any. Listen to your gut.
posted by Jubey at 3:50 PM on October 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 3:50 PM on October 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
if he can't take an hour or two to write down Why I Want To Get Married To This Person, he's showing very solidly that he's not likely to comply with *any* requests that he doesn't personally believe are important.
Quoted for truth.
posted by clseace at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
Quoted for truth.
posted by clseace at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
The thing is he has been cool with an actual hum-drum marriage contract that includes kid stuff, finances, home buying, sex, polyamory, you name it!! Of course, I drafted this contract myself.
This, the vow-writing assignment, these things... don't actually seem that hum-drum to me. I've been happy in committed relationships before, I've contemplated marriage before quite comfortably, but I'd still feel deeply uncomfortable with homework and the terms of our relationship being spelled out in a Google Doc. I'm not sure these things constitute "adulting". Communicating about these things is great, but insisting that they be spelled out in writing? I mean, the actual vows probably should be so you can remember what they are if you're not super comfortable with improv, but it seems like you're asking here for a level of detail of things being spelled out in writing that would make more than just your current fiance feel a little bit squicky.
I'm not saying, I want to be clear, that you're wrong for wanting what you want--just that it may not be the most reasonable expectation that your fiance also think this is a standard, routine way of doing things. If he doesn't think it's standard and routine, then you might have to do a lot more explaining why it matters to you and what your expectations are, to get him comfortable with what you're asking of him. There are very few things that it's flat out wrong to ask for, but there are a lot of things where you need to provide more context and communication in order to get the other person on the same page. If you'd just asked him to write down why he loves you, I think maybe that would be getting a better and more standard response here than if you were asking it after you wrote a Google Doc marriage contract that included the terms of your sex life.
posted by Sequence at 4:05 PM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
This, the vow-writing assignment, these things... don't actually seem that hum-drum to me. I've been happy in committed relationships before, I've contemplated marriage before quite comfortably, but I'd still feel deeply uncomfortable with homework and the terms of our relationship being spelled out in a Google Doc. I'm not sure these things constitute "adulting". Communicating about these things is great, but insisting that they be spelled out in writing? I mean, the actual vows probably should be so you can remember what they are if you're not super comfortable with improv, but it seems like you're asking here for a level of detail of things being spelled out in writing that would make more than just your current fiance feel a little bit squicky.
I'm not saying, I want to be clear, that you're wrong for wanting what you want--just that it may not be the most reasonable expectation that your fiance also think this is a standard, routine way of doing things. If he doesn't think it's standard and routine, then you might have to do a lot more explaining why it matters to you and what your expectations are, to get him comfortable with what you're asking of him. There are very few things that it's flat out wrong to ask for, but there are a lot of things where you need to provide more context and communication in order to get the other person on the same page. If you'd just asked him to write down why he loves you, I think maybe that would be getting a better and more standard response here than if you were asking it after you wrote a Google Doc marriage contract that included the terms of your sex life.
posted by Sequence at 4:05 PM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
If this person needs you for a visa and you are the only thing keeping them in the country and he STILL can't manage to maintain a ruse that he loves you when it's most critical, before you get married, I can't imagine what the relationship will look like when he doesn't have to pretend anymore because he got what he wanted. There is a reason you feel desperate for reassurance, and there's a reason he's refusing to give you any. Listen to your gut.
Yes, this, exactly. Please don't marry this person because he is not being a respectful partner to you.
posted by a strong female character at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yes, this, exactly. Please don't marry this person because he is not being a respectful partner to you.
posted by a strong female character at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Others have detailed the concerns about different communication styles, imbalance in motivation or attitude to commitment, visa-vs-love, cultural backgrounds, lack of respect or care, the briefness of the relationship, legal/financial consequences...And you're feeling miserable.
Whatever the "true" reason is, this really does not look like a healthy situation with a month to go till marriage. Marriage! A thing with potentially huge legal, financial, emotional consequences, the burden of which may fall disproportionately on YOU given the lack of "adulting" on his part.
Picture how you would feel on the day of the ceremony. Will you be happy? Will you still feel this unease and misery?
If you're planning a low-key wedding, that's all the more reason to postpone or call off the wedding/marriage. (We hear about people who cold-footedly go through with the wedding because of nonrefundable bookings and 400 guests flying in and embarrassment etc. and end up being miserable or divorced.) You're still at the point where you can save yourself the trouble and pain. With so much of your future at stake, please don't rush into this.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Whatever the "true" reason is, this really does not look like a healthy situation with a month to go till marriage. Marriage! A thing with potentially huge legal, financial, emotional consequences, the burden of which may fall disproportionately on YOU given the lack of "adulting" on his part.
Picture how you would feel on the day of the ceremony. Will you be happy? Will you still feel this unease and misery?
If you're planning a low-key wedding, that's all the more reason to postpone or call off the wedding/marriage. (We hear about people who cold-footedly go through with the wedding because of nonrefundable bookings and 400 guests flying in and embarrassment etc. and end up being miserable or divorced.) You're still at the point where you can save yourself the trouble and pain. With so much of your future at stake, please don't rush into this.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Everyone is asking such great questions. The one thing that is nagging at me is: do you think he would want to marry you if his visa was not involved?
If not, please don't marry this man!
(Also, he is awfully dismissive of your needs and requests for someone auditioning to be your life partner. Saying no is one thing, ignoring and having such a strong reaction is another. I have to wonder: is the reason he doesn't want to share why he wants to marry you is that he's only marrying you to get legal immigration status? And he's having an extreme reaction because he knows how awful that is?)
posted by dancing_angel at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
If not, please don't marry this man!
(Also, he is awfully dismissive of your needs and requests for someone auditioning to be your life partner. Saying no is one thing, ignoring and having such a strong reaction is another. I have to wonder: is the reason he doesn't want to share why he wants to marry you is that he's only marrying you to get legal immigration status? And he's having an extreme reaction because he knows how awful that is?)
posted by dancing_angel at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Some people are just not into writing letters, and if he's one of those people, your request could be really baffling. Imagine if he demanded that you do a ten minute interpretive dance that detailed your relationship. I get that it's important to you to know how he feels about your marriage, but you also need to let him express that in a way he is comfortable with. Just because he isn't expressing himself using your preferred method doesn't mean the feelings aren't there.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
He will get a legal right to stay in the country if you marry him. If there is even the tiniest hint of the notion that what you will get "in return" is a wedding or a spouse or the privilege to say that you are married, this is already quite lopsided.
Why do I infer this? Some of your wording lends itself to age-old misery.
In many Western cultures, there's an awful stereotype that men only get married after their SOs have "worn them down," because everyone knows commitment of any kind is a treat for us and a nightmarish burden for them. Actual outcomes, including health, longevity, and happiness, don't bear this out -- women usually initiate divorces, and we don't live any longer if we get hitched than if we don't. We also tend to be the only ones who worry about "nagging" when we ask for someone to carry their share of the emotional load.
Some non-Western cultures also view marriage as a favor the groom does for the bride, or for her family. Economic dependence is seen as an inherent design flaw in female humans, not something that equal access to education, birth control, and gainful employment would remedy.
These nasty myths run in parallel, but they feed into a common notion that a man who acquiesces to marriage has "paid his debt," and that a woman is a "depreciating asset"
being sold off. It would follow, in this "economy," that every measure of relationship health is the wife's job from then on. If the husband is a breadwinner, this is seen as "extra credit" he can spend in the form of domestic abuse or (non-consensual) extramarital affairs. If he doesn't "beat or cheat," this is sometimes used as an excuse not to contribute to household upkeep OR finances. The wife may be blamed for not "earning" better treatment.
I've met enough couples like that, from "staunchly traditional" to "proudly nontraditional." Still, most men I associate with seem to understand, at least intellectually, that this relationship model is nonsense. Ask yourself if your fiancé gets it, too. Because by my count, he's already gaining a legal and financial protection by entering into this marriage with you. If anyone is doing anyone a "favor," it's you helping him, so: what will he give in return?
I may be imbuing this with my own, more-"traditional" (though actually pretty radical) ideas about what marriage is about. Still: if he just wants a pathway to citizenship and a friend-with-benefits, and you want to be loved, please "keep your legal and financial virginity" until you're sure you couldn't do better.
Write a letter to yourself about what you think marriage means, and what you expect it to mean to a partner. Don't settle for "I'll pity you while you hold your nose." Please.
posted by armeowda at 8:20 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Why do I infer this? Some of your wording lends itself to age-old misery.
In many Western cultures, there's an awful stereotype that men only get married after their SOs have "worn them down," because everyone knows commitment of any kind is a treat for us and a nightmarish burden for them. Actual outcomes, including health, longevity, and happiness, don't bear this out -- women usually initiate divorces, and we don't live any longer if we get hitched than if we don't. We also tend to be the only ones who worry about "nagging" when we ask for someone to carry their share of the emotional load.
Some non-Western cultures also view marriage as a favor the groom does for the bride, or for her family. Economic dependence is seen as an inherent design flaw in female humans, not something that equal access to education, birth control, and gainful employment would remedy.
These nasty myths run in parallel, but they feed into a common notion that a man who acquiesces to marriage has "paid his debt," and that a woman is a "depreciating asset"
being sold off. It would follow, in this "economy," that every measure of relationship health is the wife's job from then on. If the husband is a breadwinner, this is seen as "extra credit" he can spend in the form of domestic abuse or (non-consensual) extramarital affairs. If he doesn't "beat or cheat," this is sometimes used as an excuse not to contribute to household upkeep OR finances. The wife may be blamed for not "earning" better treatment.
I've met enough couples like that, from "staunchly traditional" to "proudly nontraditional." Still, most men I associate with seem to understand, at least intellectually, that this relationship model is nonsense. Ask yourself if your fiancé gets it, too. Because by my count, he's already gaining a legal and financial protection by entering into this marriage with you. If anyone is doing anyone a "favor," it's you helping him, so: what will he give in return?
I may be imbuing this with my own, more-"traditional" (though actually pretty radical) ideas about what marriage is about. Still: if he just wants a pathway to citizenship and a friend-with-benefits, and you want to be loved, please "keep your legal and financial virginity" until you're sure you couldn't do better.
Write a letter to yourself about what you think marriage means, and what you expect it to mean to a partner. Don't settle for "I'll pity you while you hold your nose." Please.
posted by armeowda at 8:20 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Something doesn’t quite add up. You say you are not very traditional and pretty much getting married to legalise his immigration status.
And yet, you make his writing a (love? vows? sentimental?) letter almost a condition to marry him. Can you just let this one go? It only became an issue because you’ve made it an issue.
I think you should drop the subject and I also think you should rethink the wedding because obviously marriage doesn’t mean the same to the two of you.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:08 PM on October 19, 2017
And yet, you make his writing a (love? vows? sentimental?) letter almost a condition to marry him. Can you just let this one go? It only became an issue because you’ve made it an issue.
I think you should drop the subject and I also think you should rethink the wedding because obviously marriage doesn’t mean the same to the two of you.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:08 PM on October 19, 2017
Response by poster: Well thanks so much for everyone's very thoughtful responses. Last night we discussed this over the phone (we have been geographically separated this month for work) and we both aired stuff out. I aired out my fears and explained my motivation behind the letter. He swore on his life that he had not really understood the request, and that me asking for it again fresh on the heels of a fight was not a good time and made it seem like some sort of extortion.He was very good and we had a very productive conversation about our hopes and fears going into this marriage. I backed off and gave him options and I asked him if he thought the letter was fair or unfair and if we should just write vows instead, and amazingly he said "no I want to write it." The letter will repeat some things he said already in the phone call but to me it is important. So he is going to write it and by the end of the month.
We had a meta-discussion about the conflict and I think the take-away was two-fold. One, I should have formalized the request a bit more and been more specific (I think that I had asked him to write it very intuitively, without personally investigating the sub-conscious reasons why I wanted it) and secondly, that he over-reacted to my request and threw a bit of a fit because he felt "forced." Once I gave him some options and some agency he was happy to comply with my request. I was very glad that the conversation had been had and we both felt happy about the way we dealt with the conflict and what we learned about it. We are both still nervous about the wedding for all the reasons that people get nervous, but he said that I am "the most ideal person" he could ask for as a life-partner, and that he knew he was making the right choice, so hearing that was very reassuring.
We both re-iterated to one another that we are stressed about this marriage because it has come upon us so soon. My taking a job in my home country totally accelerated a marriage process that would not have been initiated so soon if my departure was not imminent. By that same token, he said he was confident that we were making the right choice and that he knew it would work out and that we were a great team. I think it is only when Im feeling insecure and sort of fragile because of distance and my own self-confidence that I cling to these concrete things like this letter, to abate my my paranoia that he is only in it for the visa. When i let that go, the letter becomes less DIRE and in turn it makes him more willing to write it. Very complicated, but I think so many of you were spot-on when you mentioned that this was not about the letter but about deeper fears motivating my asking of it.
Overall, I am very grateful to the smart incisive commenters for their takes.
posted by jacobnayar at 1:53 AM on October 20, 2017
We had a meta-discussion about the conflict and I think the take-away was two-fold. One, I should have formalized the request a bit more and been more specific (I think that I had asked him to write it very intuitively, without personally investigating the sub-conscious reasons why I wanted it) and secondly, that he over-reacted to my request and threw a bit of a fit because he felt "forced." Once I gave him some options and some agency he was happy to comply with my request. I was very glad that the conversation had been had and we both felt happy about the way we dealt with the conflict and what we learned about it. We are both still nervous about the wedding for all the reasons that people get nervous, but he said that I am "the most ideal person" he could ask for as a life-partner, and that he knew he was making the right choice, so hearing that was very reassuring.
We both re-iterated to one another that we are stressed about this marriage because it has come upon us so soon. My taking a job in my home country totally accelerated a marriage process that would not have been initiated so soon if my departure was not imminent. By that same token, he said he was confident that we were making the right choice and that he knew it would work out and that we were a great team. I think it is only when Im feeling insecure and sort of fragile because of distance and my own self-confidence that I cling to these concrete things like this letter, to abate my my paranoia that he is only in it for the visa. When i let that go, the letter becomes less DIRE and in turn it makes him more willing to write it. Very complicated, but I think so many of you were spot-on when you mentioned that this was not about the letter but about deeper fears motivating my asking of it.
Overall, I am very grateful to the smart incisive commenters for their takes.
posted by jacobnayar at 1:53 AM on October 20, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:39 AM on October 19, 2017 [11 favorites]