EX THERAPIST
October 15, 2017 11:02 AM Subscribe
Have anyone had a bad experience with a therapist, and like a poison in your mind, can't seem to let go until an apology is rendered by the therapist? It has been three years since therapy ended and in distress I left a vm for him (drunk) demanding he call me and apologize.
He called me, threatened me with harassment charges. I won't go into what happened during the therapy except he mishandled the transference badly and I had to leave. Later we exchanged letters, wherein he was kind yet no formal apology was rendered.
I sent a bunch of texts 18 months ago demanding an apology, then alternately apologizing myself, and pleading with him.
So now I look completely insane.
We spoke for 40 minutes last week and I asked for an in-person meeting. He said he would would talk to his attorney but he sounded extremely hesitant to agree--supposed to get back to me in a few weeks.
Why can't I seem to let this go?
He called me, threatened me with harassment charges. I won't go into what happened during the therapy except he mishandled the transference badly and I had to leave. Later we exchanged letters, wherein he was kind yet no formal apology was rendered.
I sent a bunch of texts 18 months ago demanding an apology, then alternately apologizing myself, and pleading with him.
So now I look completely insane.
We spoke for 40 minutes last week and I asked for an in-person meeting. He said he would would talk to his attorney but he sounded extremely hesitant to agree--supposed to get back to me in a few weeks.
Why can't I seem to let this go?
It sounds to me like you have given over too much reign of your thoughts and being to the opinions of another person. A therapist is in a position of power, yes, and you were vulnerable, yes... but you did not find that this particular therapist was a good fit for you and have since moved on... but yet you have not. You did the right thing in moving on, but maybe you have too high a regard for the person in his position than his character allows. It can take some time and effort if you have been programmed to believe that all people in an authority position are good and worthy of their titles. We want to believe this for the world to feel *safe* to us, but the truth is, many of those people are just like any of the others in this world - winding their own ways along in their personal journey - only they've chosen alternative paths or had better (or just different) opportunities. They don't always understand what another is going through simply because they've been trained. They don't always say the best things. On the other hand, a simple turn of phrase or context of a conversation can be taken in so many ways by people of differing experiences and life frameworks. If you are seeing a different therapist, this is something that you could express in order to work through your feelings about the exchange that happened so long ago now. If you are drinking heavily or otherwise under the influence often, it can cloud your thought processes and make old wounds take longer to heal. If this is the case, then please, also, consider a support group to help you live your life without needing to numb those feelings so that you can truly move on.
posted by itsflyable at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by itsflyable at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hmm - if you were him, and a patient from 3 years has continued to persistently contact you, sent you letters which you kindly responded to, leaving a drunk voicemail, sending a bunch of texts, calling repeatedly, getting a (one assumes free) 40 minute call and requesting a (equally uncompensated) future in-person meeting, what would you do?
If the asker was the therapist, I think we'd all be recommending they go get an attorney, ASAP, and not respond any further to the ex-patient other than referring you to call 911 if they are experiencing an emergency (which likely his voicemail greeting already directs people to do).
If I were you - delete his name, his phone number, his everything from your devices. Ignore his call, if he calls back (and equally, ignore the letter he sends, as I think it is much more likely that his next communication with you will be via mail). Find a new therapist, and talk with them about what has happened and how you feel. No good will come of future contact with your old therapist.
posted by arnicae at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2017 [60 favorites]
If the asker was the therapist, I think we'd all be recommending they go get an attorney, ASAP, and not respond any further to the ex-patient other than referring you to call 911 if they are experiencing an emergency (which likely his voicemail greeting already directs people to do).
If I were you - delete his name, his phone number, his everything from your devices. Ignore his call, if he calls back (and equally, ignore the letter he sends, as I think it is much more likely that his next communication with you will be via mail). Find a new therapist, and talk with them about what has happened and how you feel. No good will come of future contact with your old therapist.
posted by arnicae at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2017 [60 favorites]
I'm sorry that he mistreated you, truly. But you need to stop contacting him, full stop. It is very inappropriate and you are making yourself look bad by behaving this way. I don't say that to be cruel, and I apologise if it comes across that way, but I think if you continue down this path you will face legal trouble.
Please find a new therapist to talk about this with.
posted by blackzinfandel at 11:35 AM on October 15, 2017 [12 favorites]
Please find a new therapist to talk about this with.
posted by blackzinfandel at 11:35 AM on October 15, 2017 [12 favorites]
In direct answer to your question, no, I have never had that specific experience with a therapist. However, I have had experiences where I've felt unable to let people go, and where I return again and again to a person who is bad for me in a way that feels like I need something from them before I will be able to move on. I also have a lot of friends who relate to people in this way. It's a fairly common dynamic.
I read your earlier question about your therapist. His behavior toward you was inappropriate. You know this and I think you can feel pretty confident that he knows this, as well. So what difference does an apology make? Well, I think it comes down to a question of power.
At first, in therapy, he made you feel powerful -too powerful-- because you felt as though he was seduced and attracted by you in a way you both knew was inappropriate. You had the "power" to upend the normal cycle of therapy and force your therapist to let his boundaries erode in a way that put him in the wrong. This level of imagined power is intoxicating - it can feel like a drug. It's also illusory - the erosion of the boundaries was 100% your therapist's choice, and had very little to do with you. When he withdrew and cut off your supply, reasserting his boundaries, you felt helpless and powerless - he took your power away, leaving with even less than you had before. Now, you want to regain a sense of power by forcing him to apologize, even though he doesn't want to. You crave a sense of agency in the form of power over him - he ought to do this; I have the right to get this; I demand he give it to me - more than the apology itself.
None of this is your fault. Therapy is supposed to be a space that's safe to explore these types of dynamics and he screwed up. But he screwed up in a way that didn't really have anything to do with you - he made a couple of inappropriate comments three years ago. In your original question, you say, "I wish I could find a story similar to mine, but could not (seduced and then punished by a therapist), which is why I am posting here. Was I seduced? Punished? What the hell happened?"
Seduced/Punished is a story you're telling yourself. It is a story in which you a helpless victim to an evil man, and the only way to make that story right is to reclaim the power that was taken from you. But he didn't take anything from you. He's just a sleazy dude. That Seduced/Punished story - that's yours. I'm sure it has precursors in your life, and its yours to master and work out. Getting an apology from the therapist would only make things worse, not better, because it will reinforce the impression that the way to solve this is to get something from him, that the important action to be taken is his, when it's not. It's yours. The poison will drain from you when you realize this, and not before.
I'd recommend finding a female therapist, and leading off with this story. It's not easy, but you're not alone. Good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:39 AM on October 15, 2017 [28 favorites]
I read your earlier question about your therapist. His behavior toward you was inappropriate. You know this and I think you can feel pretty confident that he knows this, as well. So what difference does an apology make? Well, I think it comes down to a question of power.
At first, in therapy, he made you feel powerful -too powerful-- because you felt as though he was seduced and attracted by you in a way you both knew was inappropriate. You had the "power" to upend the normal cycle of therapy and force your therapist to let his boundaries erode in a way that put him in the wrong. This level of imagined power is intoxicating - it can feel like a drug. It's also illusory - the erosion of the boundaries was 100% your therapist's choice, and had very little to do with you. When he withdrew and cut off your supply, reasserting his boundaries, you felt helpless and powerless - he took your power away, leaving with even less than you had before. Now, you want to regain a sense of power by forcing him to apologize, even though he doesn't want to. You crave a sense of agency in the form of power over him - he ought to do this; I have the right to get this; I demand he give it to me - more than the apology itself.
None of this is your fault. Therapy is supposed to be a space that's safe to explore these types of dynamics and he screwed up. But he screwed up in a way that didn't really have anything to do with you - he made a couple of inappropriate comments three years ago. In your original question, you say, "I wish I could find a story similar to mine, but could not (seduced and then punished by a therapist), which is why I am posting here. Was I seduced? Punished? What the hell happened?"
Seduced/Punished is a story you're telling yourself. It is a story in which you a helpless victim to an evil man, and the only way to make that story right is to reclaim the power that was taken from you. But he didn't take anything from you. He's just a sleazy dude. That Seduced/Punished story - that's yours. I'm sure it has precursors in your life, and its yours to master and work out. Getting an apology from the therapist would only make things worse, not better, because it will reinforce the impression that the way to solve this is to get something from him, that the important action to be taken is his, when it's not. It's yours. The poison will drain from you when you realize this, and not before.
I'd recommend finding a female therapist, and leading off with this story. It's not easy, but you're not alone. Good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:39 AM on October 15, 2017 [28 favorites]
Haha, it happens. Who hasn't left the odd angry demanding voice mail. This is life. Forgive yourself. Do put on a power mix and process the feelings, try some exercise. These kinds of grudges are a normal part of life, but they don't mean that you need an answer from him and you certainly don't need one NOW. You will survive, I promise. And in time the grudge will fade. You seem very hurt. Don't re-hurt yourself by engaging with this man.
posted by karmachameleon at 11:44 AM on October 15, 2017
posted by karmachameleon at 11:44 AM on October 15, 2017
My lawyer parents drilled it into my head that if I were ever in a car accident, I must not apologize as that could be used against me later as an admission of guilt. Your therapist is clearly in touch with a lawyer and has probably been advised not to apologize. Agree that this is something you need to work through with a different therapist.
posted by FencingGal at 11:46 AM on October 15, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 11:46 AM on October 15, 2017 [14 favorites]
He's unlikely to apologize to you and even it he does, what would that fix? What would that mean? I suspect that part of you thinks that an apology would heal everything but in my own experience that's pretty rare.
The whole situation sounds pretty toxic and I agree with above suggestions to delete his contact info and to find another (female) therapist to help sort through this.
Although it's a very different situation, the suggestions for moving on from a romantic relationship in a recent ask might be helpful, since it sounds like you did have an intense attraction initially (per your prior ask) - this is of course no substitute for therapy.
posted by bunderful at 12:14 PM on October 15, 2017
The whole situation sounds pretty toxic and I agree with above suggestions to delete his contact info and to find another (female) therapist to help sort through this.
Although it's a very different situation, the suggestions for moving on from a romantic relationship in a recent ask might be helpful, since it sounds like you did have an intense attraction initially (per your prior ask) - this is of course no substitute for therapy.
posted by bunderful at 12:14 PM on October 15, 2017
I haven't been in this situation but have seen another person go through it. You will never get what you want from him and the part of you that knows this is the part that clings to thoughts of this interaction. It's a way of not moving forward. What has come up for you lately that has this coming back again?
posted by decathexis at 12:25 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by decathexis at 12:25 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Who hasn't left the odd angry demanding voice mail.
Lots of people. No need to normalize this behavior IMHO.
posted by The Toad at 1:30 PM on October 15, 2017 [45 favorites]
Lots of people. No need to normalize this behavior IMHO.
posted by The Toad at 1:30 PM on October 15, 2017 [45 favorites]
Was it the situation you had previously posted about where you expressed that you were attracted to him and his response was negative but interpreted differently?
posted by k8t at 1:43 PM on October 15, 2017
posted by k8t at 1:43 PM on October 15, 2017
To borrow a line: The best time to get a new therapist to work through this stuff with was three years ago, but the second best time is today. Why can't you let this go? Because, the way that this stuff usually works--the reason you can't let it go is because you haven't let it go. That's all, on the one hand, and simultaneously an incredibly difficult thing, letting things go. If trying to do it alone isn't working, work on it with another person. And, yes, a woman, this time.
posted by Sequence at 1:47 PM on October 15, 2017
posted by Sequence at 1:47 PM on October 15, 2017
Is this the therapist from your earlier question? I think he is in the right to be speaking with an attorney and avoiding contact with you. I think you misunderstood his questions as indications of mutual feelings that did not exist, in which case, the best thing for you to do is to go cold turkey on anything having to do with this guy. Stop initiating contact, do not think that an apology is going to solve what's eating you, whether he owes you one or not. You need to step away.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:50 PM on October 15, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 1:50 PM on October 15, 2017 [7 favorites]
I find visualization helps a lot with things I can't let go. For example, writing letters (that go unsent) gives me a sense of having communicated something. Maybe develop a mental movie of him apologizing. Maybe write an apology letter that you pretend comes from him. Maybe write a letter that is you communicating what you most want him to realize. These sound silly but can really work.
posted by salvia at 2:04 PM on October 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 2:04 PM on October 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
Given the fact that poor treatment by a therapist that feels like a "poison in your mind" is almost definitely trauma, two things.
One: even if calling people drunk isn't great, it makes sense to want an apology or some kind of vindication, it makes sense to feel this bad. Having someone break the covenant between patient and therapist, regardless of how it happens and whether or not it's immediately recognized as wrong, is wrong. There's a power differential between you and a therapist that was not respected, and which was manipulated. Full stop.
Two: Should you seek a therapist after this (and if you don't want to, that's more than fair), I would look into trauma-oriented therapy. Even if that's not how you ultimately want to label your experience, it may help to have someone help you validate it and make sense of it from that kind of perspective.
There is nothing wrong with wanting an apology, it might make you feel better if you were to get one, it might not (NOBODY here can tell you that, because we're not you), but at this point you won't get one. It's okay to be upset about that, and I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by colorblock sock at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
One: even if calling people drunk isn't great, it makes sense to want an apology or some kind of vindication, it makes sense to feel this bad. Having someone break the covenant between patient and therapist, regardless of how it happens and whether or not it's immediately recognized as wrong, is wrong. There's a power differential between you and a therapist that was not respected, and which was manipulated. Full stop.
Two: Should you seek a therapist after this (and if you don't want to, that's more than fair), I would look into trauma-oriented therapy. Even if that's not how you ultimately want to label your experience, it may help to have someone help you validate it and make sense of it from that kind of perspective.
There is nothing wrong with wanting an apology, it might make you feel better if you were to get one, it might not (NOBODY here can tell you that, because we're not you), but at this point you won't get one. It's okay to be upset about that, and I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by colorblock sock at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Someone who mistreated you when they were supposed to help you probably isn't going to apologize. And even if they did, it would be meaningless. Go to a good therapist and process the anger, pain, and feelings of betrayal. Your feelings are real and important. I just don't think an apology is what you really need.
posted by wryly at 5:45 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by wryly at 5:45 PM on October 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lots of people. No need to normalize this behavior IMHO.
I mean, look OP, the point is, I think you could use some help. There is something going on with you for sure - yes, you are justified in getting help, just not from this person.
I don't think you behaved out of the ballpark terribly, just that the boundary is clear. Don't beat yourself up.
posted by karmachameleon at 8:33 PM on October 15, 2017
I mean, look OP, the point is, I think you could use some help. There is something going on with you for sure - yes, you are justified in getting help, just not from this person.
I don't think you behaved out of the ballpark terribly, just that the boundary is clear. Don't beat yourself up.
posted by karmachameleon at 8:33 PM on October 15, 2017
I read that last question now, and I'm just now realizing that this was three years ago.
I can really see why his behavior would really mess with your head. It sounds like a lot got stirred up. The crush, the "little girl" bit, and who knows what else. Something serious got tapped into or stirred up or whatever. Your goal of using psychotherapy to really dig in was successful in that way.
But then, that stuff got terribly mishandled. I'm not a therapist, but it sounds like you had a lot of raw feelings right on the surface. I can only imagine it being like having a doctor open up your chest for an operation, then bruising the various organs, then leaving the operating room while your chest is still open.
What you haven't mentioned here or in that thread is finding someone of equal or greater therapeutic seriousness to help you sort this out. Did you find someone? Maybe you just didn't mention it? If not, that's a huge imperative. You need a competent doctor to step in and finish that operation. If you never found one, yeah, no wonder it feels like there's a poison or infection going on.
I do think that reaching out to him for help is a lost cause and not even a good idea at this point. It further disempowers you. You need to take your healing into your own hands, with the help of safe experts. It makes sense that maybe you were disoriented for awhile, but after three years, the metaphorical statute of limitations on something like this has probably passed. He screwed up yes, but there's a shared responsibility. I think the time for asking him to solve it (via an apology or meeting or whatever) is over, and it's time to work with your own therapist about all of this stuff. And again, I think that asking him to solve it recreates the same dynamic that was so powerful for you, which might be why this is something that you're doing, but it's time to talk this through with a therapist, not act it out with him. Now is probably a perfect time to get connected with one, since everything is back on the surface again. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 9:22 PM on October 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can really see why his behavior would really mess with your head. It sounds like a lot got stirred up. The crush, the "little girl" bit, and who knows what else. Something serious got tapped into or stirred up or whatever. Your goal of using psychotherapy to really dig in was successful in that way.
But then, that stuff got terribly mishandled. I'm not a therapist, but it sounds like you had a lot of raw feelings right on the surface. I can only imagine it being like having a doctor open up your chest for an operation, then bruising the various organs, then leaving the operating room while your chest is still open.
What you haven't mentioned here or in that thread is finding someone of equal or greater therapeutic seriousness to help you sort this out. Did you find someone? Maybe you just didn't mention it? If not, that's a huge imperative. You need a competent doctor to step in and finish that operation. If you never found one, yeah, no wonder it feels like there's a poison or infection going on.
I do think that reaching out to him for help is a lost cause and not even a good idea at this point. It further disempowers you. You need to take your healing into your own hands, with the help of safe experts. It makes sense that maybe you were disoriented for awhile, but after three years, the metaphorical statute of limitations on something like this has probably passed. He screwed up yes, but there's a shared responsibility. I think the time for asking him to solve it (via an apology or meeting or whatever) is over, and it's time to work with your own therapist about all of this stuff. And again, I think that asking him to solve it recreates the same dynamic that was so powerful for you, which might be why this is something that you're doing, but it's time to talk this through with a therapist, not act it out with him. Now is probably a perfect time to get connected with one, since everything is back on the surface again. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 9:22 PM on October 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't understand or agree with the force with which you insist he owes you an apology. You don't claim the therapist mistreated you. Your response seems way out of proportion to what was essentially a poorly managed moment in therapy. I say this granting the assumption that it was a supremely mishandled encounter based on what you say here in your last question.
What you describe sounds more like a 3 year off-and-on campaign to stay in contact with your former therapist under the guise of righting a wrong.
This is the second time you reference someone characterizing your behavior as harassment. They do so because what you are doing is distressing and scary to them. You seem to grasp that there's something off here. You seem genuinely shaken by your own actions. But this hasn't been enough to stop you.
For your own sake it's really import that you separate your feelings about the therapist, the encounter, and the apology from your actions towards him. Your former therapist wants you to leave him alone. That's why he's hired an attorney. So leave him alone while the decision is still yours.
posted by space_cookie at 11:19 PM on October 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
What you describe sounds more like a 3 year off-and-on campaign to stay in contact with your former therapist under the guise of righting a wrong.
This is the second time you reference someone characterizing your behavior as harassment. They do so because what you are doing is distressing and scary to them. You seem to grasp that there's something off here. You seem genuinely shaken by your own actions. But this hasn't been enough to stop you.
For your own sake it's really import that you separate your feelings about the therapist, the encounter, and the apology from your actions towards him. Your former therapist wants you to leave him alone. That's why he's hired an attorney. So leave him alone while the decision is still yours.
posted by space_cookie at 11:19 PM on October 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I Know my behavior has been totally unreasonable (behavior, not feelings). I will definitely stop contacting him. There have been long periods during which I barely think about him--and, yes I have been in intensive therapy for 2 years now, but it hasn't seemed to help much in dealing with the fallout except to validate my feelings, and as my current shrink describes what happened to me was horrible and not my fault.
posted by Jaspersen145 at 7:49 AM on October 16, 2017
posted by Jaspersen145 at 7:49 AM on October 16, 2017
Jesus, so I just want to apologize, because I read this and assumed you were a difficult client, and then I found this: http://ask.metafilter.com/264409/Psychotherapy-Transference
What you do is report him to his licensing board if you haven't already.
posted by namesarehard at 10:06 AM on October 16, 2017
What you do is report him to his licensing board if you haven't already.
posted by namesarehard at 10:06 AM on October 16, 2017
Best answer: I mean, reading that, he definitely had the hots for you, and he acted out of control crazy. He should not have been hitting on a client. For you, WHOA, this must have been like OMG, "daddy figure" finally accepts me. Flowers blooming, rainbows shining down from the sky. Then, nothing and denial it happened. It is a shitty, shitty thing to do to someone. Understandably, he then backtracked. He didn't want to lose his income or license. If you think about it all of it is just that he had the hots for you and flirted with you (he must have been going insane! or very unhappy!), and then took it back. I would think 100% of the people who really thought about this situation, would identify it as that. Some pretty banal every day shittery, nothing epic.
When things like this come up though - think about it - does this actually matter in the present? I tend to think that if you're still stuck on some guy who hurt you three years ago in one extremely brief episode in each of your lives, something massively wrong is going on inside at the moment. Some incredible anxiety or problem in some area of your life. It's worth addressing that. That is the thing that you asked and none of us can tell you, but maybe it's a totally different question.
I don't think your current therapist is doing a good job if they are keeping this on the table, I will say that. That seems like a Problem. What they are doing is essentially feeding a painful crush or grudge - just don't feed it for a while and it will die.
posted by karmachameleon at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2017
When things like this come up though - think about it - does this actually matter in the present? I tend to think that if you're still stuck on some guy who hurt you three years ago in one extremely brief episode in each of your lives, something massively wrong is going on inside at the moment. Some incredible anxiety or problem in some area of your life. It's worth addressing that. That is the thing that you asked and none of us can tell you, but maybe it's a totally different question.
I don't think your current therapist is doing a good job if they are keeping this on the table, I will say that. That seems like a Problem. What they are doing is essentially feeding a painful crush or grudge - just don't feed it for a while and it will die.
posted by karmachameleon at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2017
I would think 100% of the people who really thought about this situation, would identify it as that.
If you read the answers from last time, you'll find this is not at all true. I particularly recommend looking at Obscure Reference's remarks.
posted by FencingGal at 12:49 PM on October 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you read the answers from last time, you'll find this is not at all true. I particularly recommend looking at Obscure Reference's remarks.
posted by FencingGal at 12:49 PM on October 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Obscure Reference, while therapist I think, has no basis in his remarks--it's almost as if he didn't read the question.
posted by Jaspersen145 at 2:29 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by Jaspersen145 at 2:29 PM on October 16, 2017
It just seems like an intense crush to me. He flirted back. "Do you want to be inside me?" What the F? He's just a person! Doctors and therapists all are! It was very inappropriate. He led the OP on. That being said, it is not that embarrassing and traumatic, in my opinion - this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME. A decent doctor would have apologized, this one didn't. I'm sorry, OP, it sucks. But you're not a freak, and he's just some fart you had a disagreement with - I hope you can frame it in those terms.
posted by karmachameleon at 3:00 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by karmachameleon at 3:00 PM on October 16, 2017
it might make you feel better to know that it is almost 100% assured that he can't apologize to you even if he wanted to and feels like he should. The potential downside for him - the legal exposure, &c., if he says out loud to you that he behaved in an unethical way - is enormous. So you must let go of that hope. It is not going to happen. It just can't.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:26 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:26 PM on October 16, 2017
Pretend this guy is dead. Convince yourself he is dead. HE does not exist so you can't contact him. You'll never suss out his intention or get an apology because he is dead. There will be no apology because he is dead. you can grieve in your own way, with any mix of relief, regret, sorrow, etc that you want, because he is dead.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:19 AM on October 17, 2017
posted by WeekendJen at 7:19 AM on October 17, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lydhre at 11:22 AM on October 15, 2017 [18 favorites]