Can You Hear Me Now? Downstairs Neighbor Noise Edition!
October 10, 2017 9:06 AM Subscribe
I just moved into the top floor unit of a small 2 story building. I specifically chose the top floor unit to avoid noise. I just started grad school and my partner works from home so it was super, super, super important that the building is quiet. When we asked about noise, the property management company said "oh yeah, it should be very quiet since you're on the top floor" but...
I can hear everything my *downstairs* neighbors are doing and my unit vibrates every time they take a step.
I've never heard sounds from downstairs before in any apartment I've ever lived in. I'm pretty sure there's something weird or not up to code with this building. I know you can't really tell what's up with the insulation without opening up a wall, but I'm suspicious that there might not be any insulation in the walls in this building. (Building is older, but was refurbished "down to the studs" 2 or 3 years ago)
Not only can I distinctively hear the downstairs neighbors when they're using normal speaking voices, but every single step shakes the floor in my unit. I get a sizable vibration jolt with every step and the toddlers run back and forth and back and forth all day. It's like this scene from Jurassic Park plus lots of crying and screaming. They're also home all day, every day. This is making it impossible for me to work - let alone enjoy just relaxing when I'm at home.
I've only lived here for 3 weeks and I'm ready to try to get out of the lease. I'm in Portland, OR and the lease says I owe 1-month of rent for leaving early.
Since the building may not be up to code, I want to try to see if I can use that as leverage to avoid the early move-out fee. I'm just not quite sure how to do that. I couldn't find anything with just a cursory Google search, but I'm not even sure what to try to look up at this point. If I were to confirm that there is no insulation or another building code violation would that help my case at all? If the Hivemind suspects that there might be something weird with the building, I'd be willing to hire an inspector to take a look.
I also have some diagnosed medical issues which are worsened by stress, could waiving the early move-out fee be considered a reasonable accommodation under the Fair Housing Act? Especially because I specifically asked about noise before applying for the unit.
I don't think the downstairs neighbors are doing anything out of the ordinary, and you can't really ask toddlers to stop shrieking, toddling, and playing. I've also already spent a couple of hundred bucks on area rugs, which didn't help. A white noise machine helps a little with the noise coming from downstairs (speaking voices, TV sounds), but the thumping vibrations from the kids running around is what's really driving me nuts.
I've never heard sounds from downstairs before in any apartment I've ever lived in. I'm pretty sure there's something weird or not up to code with this building. I know you can't really tell what's up with the insulation without opening up a wall, but I'm suspicious that there might not be any insulation in the walls in this building. (Building is older, but was refurbished "down to the studs" 2 or 3 years ago)
Not only can I distinctively hear the downstairs neighbors when they're using normal speaking voices, but every single step shakes the floor in my unit. I get a sizable vibration jolt with every step and the toddlers run back and forth and back and forth all day. It's like this scene from Jurassic Park plus lots of crying and screaming. They're also home all day, every day. This is making it impossible for me to work - let alone enjoy just relaxing when I'm at home.
I've only lived here for 3 weeks and I'm ready to try to get out of the lease. I'm in Portland, OR and the lease says I owe 1-month of rent for leaving early.
Since the building may not be up to code, I want to try to see if I can use that as leverage to avoid the early move-out fee. I'm just not quite sure how to do that. I couldn't find anything with just a cursory Google search, but I'm not even sure what to try to look up at this point. If I were to confirm that there is no insulation or another building code violation would that help my case at all? If the Hivemind suspects that there might be something weird with the building, I'd be willing to hire an inspector to take a look.
I also have some diagnosed medical issues which are worsened by stress, could waiving the early move-out fee be considered a reasonable accommodation under the Fair Housing Act? Especially because I specifically asked about noise before applying for the unit.
I don't think the downstairs neighbors are doing anything out of the ordinary, and you can't really ask toddlers to stop shrieking, toddling, and playing. I've also already spent a couple of hundred bucks on area rugs, which didn't help. A white noise machine helps a little with the noise coming from downstairs (speaking voices, TV sounds), but the thumping vibrations from the kids running around is what's really driving me nuts.
Congratulations, you live in a building similiar to the one I live in! If the building was "renovated" (i.e. something that required a building inspector) that recently, the floors and walls sound like they're out of code, the minimum of which is a sound transmission class of 50-55 (p120-40 and ยง1207). If you can hear normal speaking voices, this is an STC of about 30 (or less).
I would start by calling your local tenant's organization, followed by the Building Inspector (or whatever Portland's version of that is). Both should be able to give you some avenues, and I imagine the BI might be quite interested in learning what they missed in their last pass through.
Disclaimer: I do not live in Oregon.
posted by rhizome at 10:43 AM on October 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
I would start by calling your local tenant's organization, followed by the Building Inspector (or whatever Portland's version of that is). Both should be able to give you some avenues, and I imagine the BI might be quite interested in learning what they missed in their last pass through.
Disclaimer: I do not live in Oregon.
posted by rhizome at 10:43 AM on October 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am a small potatoes landlord and I sometimes get tenants using the good old "not up to code" ruse to get something they want (waiving the lease cancellation fee in your case). Tenants always think it's some kind of a trump card but it is actually a rather unfruitful avenue to pursue because in order to rent out a place the landlord has to go through a rental license inspection, plus whenever old tenants move out the landlord will typically send in a handyman or a property manager to see if anything needs repair.
(On a personal note, I can see this coming from a mile away and, entirely predictably, all it does is shift me from my normal helpful "human" mode to my unhelpful "legal" mode... I can only imagine that other landlords feel the same way.)
I've gone through several dramas where tenants tried to assert that there was a code violation/safety issue, and it's never panned out that way - a specialist would come out and conclude that everything was up to code/well within safety range, every time. Furthermore, in your particular case, that down-to-studs remodel almost guarantees that it was done by a contractor, which means yet another round of licensing and inspections. Your conjecture that there may not be any insulation whatsoever is especially preposterous - mold remediation (which is what happens with inadequate insulation) is incredibly expensive.
I think a more constructive move would be to assume that your landlord is not evil (at least for starters!) and talk to them about fixing the actual problem. For example in our own house there was a single vent that caused conversation to carry between levels. I totally get it that you are stressed out, perhaps even medically so - but even so, legal action should be step 10, not step 1.
As for the immediate issue, I cannot recommend Mack's silicone earplugs enough - when used correctly, they block out the loudest snoring and child screaming (they really do, and I am extremely sensitive to noise).
Regarding decibel levels advice above: you can easily and quickly download a decibel measuring app on your phone. I predict that it won't have the results you expect though - as I said above I am extremely sensitive to noise myself and every time I thought there was an issue, I measured the decibels using an app and they were well within safe limits.
posted by rada at 10:47 AM on October 10, 2017 [17 favorites]
(On a personal note, I can see this coming from a mile away and, entirely predictably, all it does is shift me from my normal helpful "human" mode to my unhelpful "legal" mode... I can only imagine that other landlords feel the same way.)
I've gone through several dramas where tenants tried to assert that there was a code violation/safety issue, and it's never panned out that way - a specialist would come out and conclude that everything was up to code/well within safety range, every time. Furthermore, in your particular case, that down-to-studs remodel almost guarantees that it was done by a contractor, which means yet another round of licensing and inspections. Your conjecture that there may not be any insulation whatsoever is especially preposterous - mold remediation (which is what happens with inadequate insulation) is incredibly expensive.
I think a more constructive move would be to assume that your landlord is not evil (at least for starters!) and talk to them about fixing the actual problem. For example in our own house there was a single vent that caused conversation to carry between levels. I totally get it that you are stressed out, perhaps even medically so - but even so, legal action should be step 10, not step 1.
As for the immediate issue, I cannot recommend Mack's silicone earplugs enough - when used correctly, they block out the loudest snoring and child screaming (they really do, and I am extremely sensitive to noise).
Regarding decibel levels advice above: you can easily and quickly download a decibel measuring app on your phone. I predict that it won't have the results you expect though - as I said above I am extremely sensitive to noise myself and every time I thought there was an issue, I measured the decibels using an app and they were well within safe limits.
posted by rada at 10:47 AM on October 10, 2017 [17 favorites]
Your conjecture that there may not be any insulation whatsoever is especially preposterous - mold remediation (which is what happens with inadequate insulation) is incredibly expensive.
I mean, not to be oversnarky, but I've certainly dealt with landlords willing to make questionable cost-benefit tradeoffs, when the 'cost' part got too enticing. Like my old landlord, who apparently had remodeled the bathroom a few years prior to my move-in using tile over regular drywall, and then forced the contractor (over the contractor's objections) to use *more* regular drywall, and not cement board, to shore up the inevitable mouldering shower wall when it collapsed. The contractor, quite reasonably, pointed out that it would just collapse again if proper materials weren't used. The landlord pointed out that he was going to flip the house anyhow and he 'just needed a year or two' and really didn't care if it collapsed again in future. As it inevitably would.
That said, it's definitely sensible to at least see if the landlord will come by and assess the problem, and perhaps offer some form of mitigation. If you try to assess the situation with a smartphone app, use a properly calibrated external microphone, if you can, for a more accurate reading.
posted by halation at 11:20 AM on October 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
I mean, not to be oversnarky, but I've certainly dealt with landlords willing to make questionable cost-benefit tradeoffs, when the 'cost' part got too enticing. Like my old landlord, who apparently had remodeled the bathroom a few years prior to my move-in using tile over regular drywall, and then forced the contractor (over the contractor's objections) to use *more* regular drywall, and not cement board, to shore up the inevitable mouldering shower wall when it collapsed. The contractor, quite reasonably, pointed out that it would just collapse again if proper materials weren't used. The landlord pointed out that he was going to flip the house anyhow and he 'just needed a year or two' and really didn't care if it collapsed again in future. As it inevitably would.
That said, it's definitely sensible to at least see if the landlord will come by and assess the problem, and perhaps offer some form of mitigation. If you try to assess the situation with a smartphone app, use a properly calibrated external microphone, if you can, for a more accurate reading.
posted by halation at 11:20 AM on October 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
Yes, you asked about noise but unless there is some specific written agreement about actual noise levels in your lease then the Fair Housing Act approach is probably a dead end. Noise and how it is measured is incredibly complicated and what is loud or even audible to you might not be to others, including your landlord.
You could get a building inspector, an industrial audiologist or acoustic engineer, take the proper measurements, and take your landlord to court to break your lease if it does in fact turn out that the building doesn't mean the minimum sound attenuation requirements.
Alternatively, you could explain the situation to your landlord and try to work something out, see if you can find a new, good tenant so there is no break in the property being rented in exchange for him waiving the fee to break the lease. If that doesn't work, you might consider just moving and coughing up the fee. One month to break a lease is actually not that bad.
If noise is this much of an issue for you, you may want to consider renting a house or other property with no shared walls. A simple walk through is never enough to predict what kind of acoustic environment the place will turn out to be.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:38 AM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
You could get a building inspector, an industrial audiologist or acoustic engineer, take the proper measurements, and take your landlord to court to break your lease if it does in fact turn out that the building doesn't mean the minimum sound attenuation requirements.
Alternatively, you could explain the situation to your landlord and try to work something out, see if you can find a new, good tenant so there is no break in the property being rented in exchange for him waiving the fee to break the lease. If that doesn't work, you might consider just moving and coughing up the fee. One month to break a lease is actually not that bad.
If noise is this much of an issue for you, you may want to consider renting a house or other property with no shared walls. A simple walk through is never enough to predict what kind of acoustic environment the place will turn out to be.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:38 AM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't want to send you down a rabbit hole because the correct overall answer is for you to diplomatically appeal to the management to be released from this lease. But I do have extra advice below. Ideally, tho, maybe you can negotiate it down to a half month's rent to leave? Or just pay out the extra month and go. Do not bring your medical issues into it, but do not let anyone tell you that it is normal to hear conversations or vibrations at the level you are experiencing from adjoining apartments. Treat this like the mistake and misunderstanding it is and move out asap.
Physically go to your local gov't building department and inquire about any permits pulled for your building concerning the renovation. There likely won't be any permits, so document this. Inquire about getting an inspection. Sure, use an app to measure the noise, also make recordings and especially invite management to inspect your apartment. Talk to them. Be diplomatic.
I believe you that what you are hearing is entirely abnormal, and there are some rules around this issue. You have everything to gain by correcting this mistake quickly. Ultimately, don't let a month's rent prevent you from moving out.
posted by jbenben at 12:49 PM on October 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
Physically go to your local gov't building department and inquire about any permits pulled for your building concerning the renovation. There likely won't be any permits, so document this. Inquire about getting an inspection. Sure, use an app to measure the noise, also make recordings and especially invite management to inspect your apartment. Talk to them. Be diplomatic.
I believe you that what you are hearing is entirely abnormal, and there are some rules around this issue. You have everything to gain by correcting this mistake quickly. Ultimately, don't let a month's rent prevent you from moving out.
posted by jbenben at 12:49 PM on October 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've never heard sounds from downstairs before in any apartment I've ever lived in. I'm pretty sure there's something weird or not up to code with this building.
Honestly, you will probably have a better experience negotiating your way out of this gracefully if you drop the immediate accusation that the place is "weird/probably not up to code" because it's not as quiet and vibration-proof as you expected. Also, you may be disappointed to learn what "up to code" actually requires.
I agree that the top floor shaking because of kiddos playing downstairs sounds VERY annoying, but it's worth trying to work this out in good faith with your landlord first. Sound and vibration can carry across structures in funny ways that may not be apparent in a typical inspections process.
posted by desuetude at 1:00 PM on October 10, 2017
Honestly, you will probably have a better experience negotiating your way out of this gracefully if you drop the immediate accusation that the place is "weird/probably not up to code" because it's not as quiet and vibration-proof as you expected. Also, you may be disappointed to learn what "up to code" actually requires.
I agree that the top floor shaking because of kiddos playing downstairs sounds VERY annoying, but it's worth trying to work this out in good faith with your landlord first. Sound and vibration can carry across structures in funny ways that may not be apparent in a typical inspections process.
posted by desuetude at 1:00 PM on October 10, 2017
Not to derail, but there's something to be said for preventing the landlord from saying "shouldn't be a big deal!" to every subsequent tenant. With toddlers below, I have a guess why the previous tenants moved out.
Your conjecture that there may not be any insulation whatsoever is especially preposterous
There doesn't have to be "none" for it to sound like none, and surely you aren't saying there aren't cost decisions about the level of insulation installed, and that those decisions can affect STC. I'm not even getting into decoupling or anything like that.
Sound and vibration can carry across structures in funny ways
You misspelled "predictable." ;)
posted by rhizome at 1:34 PM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your conjecture that there may not be any insulation whatsoever is especially preposterous
There doesn't have to be "none" for it to sound like none, and surely you aren't saying there aren't cost decisions about the level of insulation installed, and that those decisions can affect STC. I'm not even getting into decoupling or anything like that.
Sound and vibration can carry across structures in funny ways
You misspelled "predictable." ;)
posted by rhizome at 1:34 PM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's a tough situation. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
Here's a sample script:
"Look, sometimes there's not a good fit and things just don't work out. Neither of us could have known. I'd like to work together to move forward. I accept that I'm going to have to shoulder the cost of moving, sadly for me. Can you (the property manager) please check with the landlord to see if they can meet me halfway. My move out day is X, I propose that I pay pro-rata for the days/weeks that I've been here as per this calculation. When can we schedule the move-out walkthrough so that I can get the security deposit back?"
Many reasonable people will see this as an "oops" and also want to it to be over and done with. Make it so easy and smooth that it's not worth their while to make a big hassle out of it. Of course, if they go nuclear, you can be prepared with decibel readings, videos, and such.
posted by metaseeker at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2017
Here's a sample script:
"Look, sometimes there's not a good fit and things just don't work out. Neither of us could have known. I'd like to work together to move forward. I accept that I'm going to have to shoulder the cost of moving, sadly for me. Can you (the property manager) please check with the landlord to see if they can meet me halfway. My move out day is X, I propose that I pay pro-rata for the days/weeks that I've been here as per this calculation. When can we schedule the move-out walkthrough so that I can get the security deposit back?"
Many reasonable people will see this as an "oops" and also want to it to be over and done with. Make it so easy and smooth that it's not worth their while to make a big hassle out of it. Of course, if they go nuclear, you can be prepared with decibel readings, videos, and such.
posted by metaseeker at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2017
Yes, you asked about noise but unless there is some specific written agreement about actual noise levels in your lease then the Fair Housing Act approach is probably a dead end
Most leases I've signed have had 'quality of life' clauses, which include making noise that disturbs others.
Some of the harsher answers sound like they're coming from landlords, especially if they're suggesting that landlords always do everything by the book and up to code. Yes, try to deal with the landlord or tenant directoy, but call the building inspector and tenant's rights org to get your ducks in a row for that conversation. Know your rights, your landlord knows theirs. And check Portland-specific laws and statutes; in California you cannot be evicted in retaliation for asserting your rights.*
*This obviously requires the privilege of having money to be able to move and the spoons to deal with everything.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:45 PM on October 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
Most leases I've signed have had 'quality of life' clauses, which include making noise that disturbs others.
Some of the harsher answers sound like they're coming from landlords, especially if they're suggesting that landlords always do everything by the book and up to code. Yes, try to deal with the landlord or tenant directoy, but call the building inspector and tenant's rights org to get your ducks in a row for that conversation. Know your rights, your landlord knows theirs. And check Portland-specific laws and statutes; in California you cannot be evicted in retaliation for asserting your rights.*
*This obviously requires the privilege of having money to be able to move and the spoons to deal with everything.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:45 PM on October 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
I've had toddlers and trust me, they have shrieks that could make three foot thick walls feel like they're paper thin. My guess is that the building is actually up to code and you're...just living near a young family. No one's fault, just a bad fit. I wouldn't go the legal route, I'd use metaseeker's script and try to appeal to the property manager's human side and get out of your lease a bit cheaper. Chances are, they'll have heard this story before from the previous tenant.
posted by Jubey at 3:38 PM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 3:38 PM on October 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I suggest visiting the Oregon State Bar's website and reading about your rights as a tenant. You can also get a referral to an attorney who specializes in this kind of case and they will give you a consultation for $35 and let you know your legal options. $35 is probably cheaper than a month's rent. :-)
posted by tacodave at 5:16 PM on October 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tacodave at 5:16 PM on October 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
I used to be a small-time landlord. Talk to the landlord, explain the problem. I used to require that my tenants have and use rugs because if the noise issue, and I bough rugs and curtains. Rugs, curtains and furniture all help a fair amount. In any case, teaming up with the landlord is the most likely option for success.
posted by theora55 at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2017
posted by theora55 at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2017
Response by poster: Not trying to threadsit here, but this is not a smalltime landlord situation where I can just call up a guy and chat - it's a big, impersonal multi-building company with online reviews suggesting they can be being very nickle-and-dimey. The management staff I've dealt with has been fine, but not particularly professional or on top of things.
Starting off with a conversation about the problem is great, but I also think it's important to know your rights if the big, impersonal corporation decides that they're not just going to be cool about the situation.
posted by forkisbetter at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2017
Starting off with a conversation about the problem is great, but I also think it's important to know your rights if the big, impersonal corporation decides that they're not just going to be cool about the situation.
posted by forkisbetter at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2017
(I wrote much of this before your most recent update; it still applies, but just FYI because I hear that your LL is a big corporation.)
I'm a small-time landlord who rehabbed the building we live in. We did everything with full plans, permits, and inspections, with licensed contractors, and the tenants (curiously, on one floor and not the other, despite us doing exactly the same thing both places) still report that sound is carrying. For whatever it's worth to know that.
Also, being "up to code" is a slippery concept in many cases. In general, the city doesn't require owners to go back and replace things that passed code at the time that the improvement was made. There are some requirements where this does happen -- smoke detectors, for one -- but even on some fairly important issues (like wiring), they often don't. A certain repair can trigger the need to upgrade something, but it doesn't always.
For example, you talk about how the house is vibrating. Well, that might be a framing issue -- if the running is causing the house to flex and vibrate, maybe the joists are undersized or something? (Not sure that's exactly right, but I lived somewhere once with that issue, and it wasn't an insulation problem.) But just because they took the building down to the studs would probably not have triggered a review of the framing. I mean, just because someone replaces some drywall, they're not going to make them rebuild that entire wall. Does the framing meet current code? Maybe not. Does that mean the building owner is in trouble? Not necessarily. The city just signed off on everything during the rehab, no? So why would the building suddenly be not up to code in some enforceable way?
I also want to heartily second everything rada wrote, especially this: "On a personal note, I can see this coming from a mile away and, entirely predictably, all it does is shift me from my normal helpful 'human' mode to my unhelpful 'legal' mode." I'm not saying I turn into a jerk or try to retaliate. But I get very cautious in a way that chills our ability to just solve things like normal human beings. E.g., I'm not going to pick up your call, because I want there to be an email paper trail of exactly what you told me and of my (legally proper) reply. It'll take me a day to get back to you because I might want my attorney to review it. Etc. The whole thing gets weird and very regimented.
Obviously, there are jerk landlords out there, so I don't blame you for wanting to be prepared with a plan for escalating if need be. But don't start there. Start with assuming that they might just be reasonable. I've let people out of leases early without charging anything. They just explained why they were uncomfortable living there (e.g., neighborhood issues) and asked if we could work something out, and we did. Generally, I just asked that they help us turn over the property quickly by allowing potential renters to come in on some mutually agreeable weekend time. I'd try just telling them that it's unworkable and you wanted to discuss what it would look like to move out without paying the fee.
Okay, but you're asking what to do if that doesn't work. I'd escalate by focusing on the false advertising -- pointing out that they stated there was no noise -- and mentioning that you're bummed about the costs that you're going to have to pay to move. (In other words, point out that through one lens, this is their fault, and that you're also experiencing financial damages.) I'd balance that with "I understand that you don't want this to sit vacant, so is there a way I can help you find a new renter?" Seek a "let's split the difference" sort of middle ground.
If they still say no, I'd escalate along these lines, making sure I was communicating with someone who understood their legal responsibilities (maybe putting this in writing). I can't afford to move and pay that fee. When I was evaluating the property, Bob the Super told me that it would be "very very quiet, as it's on the top floor." So I'd like to talk about what you're going to do as the landlord to improve habitability* and protect our right to quiet enjoyment.* This is making it impossible for me to work and exacerbating a medical condition.** Alternatively, I would like to move out without paying a one-month fee.
* more relevant legal keywords
** you're hinting at costly damages here
You ask about the medical issues. Are you living with a disability? If you go that route, the landlord will need to talk to you about "reasonable accommodation," which is kind of a complex topic, but you might be able to suggest your departure as one option.
Best wishes in your negotiation.
posted by slidell at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm a small-time landlord who rehabbed the building we live in. We did everything with full plans, permits, and inspections, with licensed contractors, and the tenants (curiously, on one floor and not the other, despite us doing exactly the same thing both places) still report that sound is carrying. For whatever it's worth to know that.
Also, being "up to code" is a slippery concept in many cases. In general, the city doesn't require owners to go back and replace things that passed code at the time that the improvement was made. There are some requirements where this does happen -- smoke detectors, for one -- but even on some fairly important issues (like wiring), they often don't. A certain repair can trigger the need to upgrade something, but it doesn't always.
For example, you talk about how the house is vibrating. Well, that might be a framing issue -- if the running is causing the house to flex and vibrate, maybe the joists are undersized or something? (Not sure that's exactly right, but I lived somewhere once with that issue, and it wasn't an insulation problem.) But just because they took the building down to the studs would probably not have triggered a review of the framing. I mean, just because someone replaces some drywall, they're not going to make them rebuild that entire wall. Does the framing meet current code? Maybe not. Does that mean the building owner is in trouble? Not necessarily. The city just signed off on everything during the rehab, no? So why would the building suddenly be not up to code in some enforceable way?
I also want to heartily second everything rada wrote, especially this: "On a personal note, I can see this coming from a mile away and, entirely predictably, all it does is shift me from my normal helpful 'human' mode to my unhelpful 'legal' mode." I'm not saying I turn into a jerk or try to retaliate. But I get very cautious in a way that chills our ability to just solve things like normal human beings. E.g., I'm not going to pick up your call, because I want there to be an email paper trail of exactly what you told me and of my (legally proper) reply. It'll take me a day to get back to you because I might want my attorney to review it. Etc. The whole thing gets weird and very regimented.
Obviously, there are jerk landlords out there, so I don't blame you for wanting to be prepared with a plan for escalating if need be. But don't start there. Start with assuming that they might just be reasonable. I've let people out of leases early without charging anything. They just explained why they were uncomfortable living there (e.g., neighborhood issues) and asked if we could work something out, and we did. Generally, I just asked that they help us turn over the property quickly by allowing potential renters to come in on some mutually agreeable weekend time. I'd try just telling them that it's unworkable and you wanted to discuss what it would look like to move out without paying the fee.
Okay, but you're asking what to do if that doesn't work. I'd escalate by focusing on the false advertising -- pointing out that they stated there was no noise -- and mentioning that you're bummed about the costs that you're going to have to pay to move. (In other words, point out that through one lens, this is their fault, and that you're also experiencing financial damages.) I'd balance that with "I understand that you don't want this to sit vacant, so is there a way I can help you find a new renter?" Seek a "let's split the difference" sort of middle ground.
If they still say no, I'd escalate along these lines, making sure I was communicating with someone who understood their legal responsibilities (maybe putting this in writing). I can't afford to move and pay that fee. When I was evaluating the property, Bob the Super told me that it would be "very very quiet, as it's on the top floor." So I'd like to talk about what you're going to do as the landlord to improve habitability* and protect our right to quiet enjoyment.* This is making it impossible for me to work and exacerbating a medical condition.** Alternatively, I would like to move out without paying a one-month fee.
* more relevant legal keywords
** you're hinting at costly damages here
You ask about the medical issues. Are you living with a disability? If you go that route, the landlord will need to talk to you about "reasonable accommodation," which is kind of a complex topic, but you might be able to suggest your departure as one option.
Best wishes in your negotiation.
posted by slidell at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jbenben at 9:09 AM on October 10, 2017 [3 favorites]