Crowdsourcing a Kitchen Reno Design
October 5, 2017 9:13 AM   Subscribe

My wife and I have put together a little bit of money to renovate our (very small). Only we can't decide on a plan. Give us your two cents.

I'm back again with another reno advice question :) We've got two options:

1) Get rid of the ground floor bathroom (put in during a previous owner's reno). Move the fridge and a new cabinet into that space.
Option 1 2D plan
Option 1 3D from dining room
Option 1 3D from back door

2) Move the bathroom to the South West Corner. Move the kitchen to the East wall of the old dining room. Put the dining table in the middle of the new combined kitchen-dining room.
Option 2 2D plan
Option 2 3D from back door
Option 2 3D from living room

For comparison, here's the existing layout in the same rendering:
existing 2D plan
existing 3D from dining room

Both options will involve a new structural beam, and new cabinetry, but the results feel pretty different. We've hashed it out between the two of us, and amongst friends, and the pro/cons generally stack up as follows:

Option 1 Pros:
- 25%-30% cheaper (since there's no bathroom to build)
- Closer to the status quo (less uncertainty that we'll hate the result)

Option 1 Cons:
- We lose the first floor bathroom. She and I rarely use it (there are two others in the house), but guests seem to prefer it to climbing stairs

Option 2 Pros:
- More kitchen area (21 linear feet of cabinets, vs 18 ft for option 1)
- A more "open" feel for parties and when working at the dining table.
- Keeps (but relocates) the bathroom
- Could give a bigger "wow" factor (hopefully in a good way).

Option 2 Cons:
- Price
- Wife isn't convinced she'll like seeing into the kitchen from the living room.

If it matters, here's some context: The house is a 2.5 storey brick century home. It has some heritage features, but it's not (yet) fancy by any means. My wife and I are the only two living here. We host the occasional party, but it's not a big part of our lives. We don't plan to move anytime soon, but we will try to keep in mind the property value impacts when choosing. We have some disposable income, but will likely have to take out a small loan either way (a larger one for option 2). This is the latest in a half-decade long string of renovations we've made to this house (thanks to AskMe for previous answers).

Mostly though, I'm interested in your gut reactions from a design perspective. Which strikes you as better?
posted by Popular Ethics to Home & Garden (31 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
Gut reaction: option 1
I'm busy right now but will get back with thoughts
posted by mumimor at 9:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Option 1 is a much more versatile layout, given you have no separate dining room. I've had option 2 as my only eating space and did not love it. It's fine for an eat in kitchen but not great for entertaining. And I also do not like seeing the sink and stove from the living room.

Losing the bathroom would be a bummer though. Could you tuck a tiny guest bath under the stairs?
posted by fshgrl at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


You don't mention your ages, but constantly going upstairs to the bathroom would be a non-starter for a lot of older people, which may or may not be a concern for you now, but might be in the future, and will definitely be for a lot of potential buyers in the future. I agree with fshgrl about looking into putting a powder room under the stairs. My grandparents did that when the stairs starting becoming an issue for their knees.
posted by COD at 9:39 AM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]


Option 1 feels more usable as a kitchen to me, although having a coat closet and WC on the first floor would be nice. Perhaps you can fit one or the other under the stairs in Option 1. The passage between the entryway (which feels like wasted space) and the kitchen is too narrow for code, I believe.

What's in that bump at the top-center of the floorplan?
posted by adamrice at 9:39 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Thanks for the votes. Keep them coming. Unfortunately there is no option to put a bathroom anywhere else than what's pictured. Under the stairs are another flight of stairs to the basement.

The bump is a utility chase carrying ductwork to upper floors.
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:40 AM on October 5, 2017


Response by poster: Just to muddy the waters, there's also an "option 3" on the table, where we get rid of all of the walls on the first floor to make an open concept living / dining / kitchen room. The pros and cons are similar to option 2 though, so I left it out of the OP.
Option 3 3D from front door
Option 3 3D from back door

Oh, and we're at that awkward age between young and not willing to admit we're approaching middle age. ~40 and still thankfully healthy.

posted by Popular Ethics at 9:49 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Yeah, agree that to me it's a shame to lose a 1st floor bathroom. Lots of reasons why it's nice to have that, including that "number of bathrooms" is a search criterion people narrow their real estate searches by.

I think Option 3 is significantly more appealing than Option 2, for whatever reason. I know a couple who are architects who redesigned their first floor of a similar house exactly like this, and it works really well. If you're going open-plan, go all the way. It's a small enough space that it won't be overwhelming, it gives you more flexibility to break up the space in slightly different ways with an island or whatever, it lets light come from both directions.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:54 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]


I was actually going to go against the grain and say Option 2 but now I just saw your update and going to say Option 3 with a suggestion. The reasons are the same for both though:

I live with just my husband and we have lived in places where the kitchen was in a different room as everywhere else, to completely open, to 'partially' open. Having the kitchen completely separate was our least favorite. Because it's just the two of us, when someone is cooking (or even making a cup of tea), they end up being super isolated. I do most of the cooking and I felt like I was literally working in a galley.

We used to have something like Option 2 and it was really nice. One of us would hang out at the dining table, with a laptop or something while the other was cooking. There was enough room for the other person to lend a hand once in a while. It just felt a lot more cozy.

Now we have something more like Option 3 and I really like it. Because the livingroom is a more comfy place to hang out, but the person in the kitchen is not isolated from that living room experience. I can still see the couch and tv from the kitchen, which is actually pretty nice!

The amend I would suggest is to add a furniture 'barrier' between your living room and kitchen area. Something like a an open shelving bookcase behind your couch. Just to give a bit more separation but you don't close it off with a wall.

Re; your wife's comment about not wanting to see the kitchen from the livingroom. I LOVE seeing my kitchen now that it's renovated. We spent a lot of time thinking about the cabinetry, the paint, the shelving and it's actually a really nice room to look at and it integrates with the living area really nicely. Plus, it's great motivation to keep the kitchen tidy!!
posted by like_neon at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]


Oh one more thing about super open plan - people are more quick to help you clean up after parties because they can see you working and there's room to actually help. When we had a kitchen like Option 1, even if people asked to help to clean up I had to turn them down because they just got in the way.
posted by like_neon at 10:02 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]


Option 2 or 3 for sure. For one thing, yes, not having a powder room on the first floor is kind of a pain. But also, option 1 is a pretty cramped kitchen to cook in. If you are cooking together, or working on a larger meal, you're going to love the flexibility of being able to move the chairs out of the way and use the table as additional prep space.
posted by capricorn at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


I just answered on a FB group I am in about why a person's house wasn't selling. Consensus was: no main floor bathroom. For me, no main floor bathroom would be a dealbreaker, so I'd pick option 2, even if it is less good for other reasons. Although honestly, I like option 2 better anyway, personally.
posted by freezer cake at 10:04 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


I agree with the others who chose Option 3 now that you've posted it. We moved last year to a more open concept home, and I love that one of us can be lounging on the sofa and still talk to someone who is cooking or making coffee. And it makes socializing with guests while still doing food prep so much easier. In my old house when the kitchen was separate, everyone congregated there anyway, so at least now they're not in my way.

I also agree that a bathroom on the first floor is important. In my case we're both young and healthy, but when I have older relatives over for dinner, it's a must. And from a resale perspective, I wouldn't consider purchasing a house without a first-floor bath.
posted by thejanna at 10:05 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


For resale value, keep the bathroom.
Do you need and will you really use a 6 person dining table? It's using a lot of space.
Open plan is nice in theory but all smells from the kitchen spread, and cooking grease does, too. I would put in upper cabinets to reduce the opening in to the dining room; you get the connectivity and slightly reduce some problems.
I made a drawing moving the closet to the dining room. I didn't resize the table. When I had a full dining room, it was nice, but so much space that's where I had my desk, and also a chest with storage. And the table sat 6 or a crowded 8.
A couple of local lumber and supply vendors have no-obligation design assistance; I'd visit 1 or 2 in your area.
posted by theora55 at 10:19 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


I wouldn’t buy a house without a main floor bathroom. However, I also wouldn’t buy a house where the main floor bath opens directly into the kitchen/dining room, so option 2 actually is no better in that regard. Where is the bath in option 3?
posted by donnagirl at 10:20 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]


Option 2 lacks a work triangle in the kitchen. I had a kitchen where everything was basically lined up like that, and it was a real pain, with a decided lack of working counter space. It would be a dealbreaker for me, but YMMV if you don't cook much. If you raised the dining table to counter height, or made it an island with seating on the other side, that would be more functional, and more on-trend. Depends on whether you ever need a more formal dining option.
posted by libraryhead at 10:34 AM on October 5, 2017


Response by poster: theora55: thanks for the sketch, but I don't think we want to reduce the opening between the kitchen and the dining room any further. The original house had a complete wall across there (Victorian's loved separate rooms for things). We're also happy to consider a smaller table. Right now the table is a multi-purpose dining and work area, so the extra space tends to collect papers.

donnagirl: the bathroom (and kitchen) in option 3 is exactly the same as in option 2.

libraryhead: I've thought about making the table a fixed island, with or without a sink. I can see some benefits (and judging by pinterest, definitely popular), but I thought that a nice looking dining table would be more flexible.
posted by Popular Ethics at 10:45 AM on October 5, 2017


Bathroom issue aside, I prefer option 1. I don't like layouts like options 2 and 3 because I feel like the person actually using the kitchen spends the whole time facing the wall, and these layouts always seem to be lacking in workable counter space.

Could you swap the dining room and kitchen? That way you could have a whole bank of cabinets across the long wall and then probably a large-ish island, and the dining table is in the more awkward space with all the doors and entry points.
posted by Shal at 10:48 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Shal: Could you swap the dining room and kitchen? That way you could have a whole bank of cabinets across the long wall and then probably a large-ish island, and the dining table is in the more awkward space with all the doors and entry points.

I see your point about having our backs turned. Anything is possible, but the house is only 18ft wide. A kitchen with an island would be ~7.5 ft across, and a dining room table needs with chairs needs ~8 ft of width. That leaves only 2 feet for a walkway to the back door, and no room for a bathroom on the West (right) wall. A better way would be to combine the table with an island as libraryhead suggested, but that still feels a little inflexible to me.
posted by Popular Ethics at 10:57 AM on October 5, 2017


The bathroom is definitely an issue. First, I don't think resale value should be the only criteria for decisions in remodeling, especially if you plan on being there for a long time. But I'm not sure if "bathroom that opens directly into the dining room" is much better than "no bathroom on that floor."

I owned a house once that had such a layout. My dining room was much bigger than yours, but even so, having the bathroom right there was super awkward. So awkward in fact, that guests and family alike would use the upstairs bathroom if the activities were in the dining room. From my experience, a dining-adjacent bathroom is more annoying than an upstairs bathroom, as long as mobility is not an issue for guests for family.

I would probably rule out buying a house with such a bathroom, but I wouldn't automatically rule out upstairs-only bathrooms. This may reduce your resale value, but as you said, it will also cost you less.

Just something to keep in mind that's hard to judge unless you have lived with it.
posted by The Deej at 11:16 AM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]


It's not just growing older, it's the getting there -- a main-floor powder room was godsend to many people I've known with even minor leg or back injuries. Keeping the bathroom where it is (opening off the hallway) is less expensive and more convenient for guests. I think your best bet is to open up the rest of the first floor around it, use translucent dividers to ease any unappealing sight lines, and splash out on a great exhaust system for possible kitchen odors.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Apologies if this is similar to Option3, because I can't quite figure it out without the 2D version. Here are my thoughts:

Keep bathroom where it is at the center of the floorplan. Go with the kitchen layout of Option 2. Move the dining room into the area where your kitchen is currently. Maybe with a built-in banquette so the table can be close against the wall. Or with a round table that expands when needed for more than 2.

Although it would be nice to have a coat closet, you can add hooks to the wall just inside the front door.

I believe that losing a bathroom on the main floor is a decision you'll regret. But I also am not a fan of its location in Option 2.
posted by hydra77 at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


Honestly, the existing plan is the best. Could you move the utility chase to an exterior wall? Could you combine this with a small "mud-room" addition to relieve the transition space into the kitchen from outside? Or even move a bathroom to such an addition? It sounds crazy, but building new is often much cheaper than re-building.

Regarding the first-floor bathroom - if this is a desirable neighborhood and other similar houses don't have a first floor bathroom, then giving it up won't be that big of a deal. Older row-houses in the city often don't have first floor bathrooms, and buyers know this and accept it. However, if such a bathroom is common to the area, not having one will turn off a lot of future buyers.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 12:34 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm seconding The Deej's comments about bathrooms that open directly onto the dining room. They're very uncomfortable to use if someone is dining! I would vote for versions 2, but change around that closet/bathroom area so that you at least have a corner to go around to get into the bathroom. This would make the bathroom really tight, but maybe you could use one of those toilet-sink combos or a very small wall-mounted sink.
posted by mskyle at 12:42 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


About Option 3 - I think in my friends' case, which is similar to Option 3, the fridge is further back on that wall, and they have a kitchen bar/peninsula coming out from where you have the fridge. I think it's bar-height on the side facing the living room, and then a step down to a counter-and-sink on the kitchen side. It's very functional -- it lets someone be sitting up there chatting with the person cooking, without being underfoot, and gives a little separation without breaking up the sight lines or the light too much. It would also help with the work-triangle issue. (Tradeoff: it would decrease the flexibility of the space.)

Pocket doors for the bathroom and closet might help a bit with door-swing space if those doors are going to stay on that wall.

Regarding the awkwardness of a bathroom in the eating space -- weirdly, I think Option 3 is better than Option 2 on this. Even though the bathroom is more open to the whole space, somehow having the whole floor be open makes it feel less like it's crammed in next to the dining table.

I agree it'd be great if you could do something clever with making the bathroom door open somehow not directly into the room.... just spitballing, can you change anything about that back corner? Like moving the back door (I think that's a back door?) to the left, so you could make a deeper bathroom/closet space, with a little more wiggle room about how those rooms are oriented? Or adding a small bump-out in the back, maybe with a little space for a deck outside and a little extra space inside so you could put in a tiny back hall that the bathroom would open onto (i.e. bathroom door oriented toward the backyard)?
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


No one wants to use, or witness the use of, a loo right off the dining area. It's too visible and too audible.

I would put a cupboard barrier, or a distinct barrier between living and ablutions. Like, bringing the whole right wall forward level with the stairs and hallway passage. The WC and small basin could be concealed behind a shallow shelving wall system in line with the backdoor.
The facing-the-living-room wall could shallow shelves suitable for paperbacks [eg] or be an art wall with an unframed, flat hinged door [painted wall colour] to cellar stairs on one side and WC the other. This gives a sense that two doors are separating guests from users of the living area, it also creates a large wall for art, and a lovely view from the front door, drawing you in to the art, rather than the appliances.

I would then locate the kitchen along the opposite wall with a central dining table that is the focus of the open space inline with where the bathroom is currently. Maybe with deeper kitchen work cupboards to facilitate an integrated set of doors for your fridge, flush with the other joinery. A mirror splashback can maybe be used along that bench to reflect the art and light across the other two walls. With a deeper cupboard [here in Aust 700-750mm] depth, you won't get marks on the mirror, it's what I have and what it does to my narrow space is amazing.

Please post updates!
posted by honey-barbara at 8:33 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]


I think at this point I'd throw some money at an architect, a local one. You'd be amazed what they can come up with.
posted by fshgrl at 11:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]


I vote for option 2, a first floor bathroom is essential for guests and I like that kitchen layout and feel better!
One other idea- do option 1 but shove the half bath in the under-stairs space?
posted by rmless at 10:18 AM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Wow, the feedback here has been great. Thank you all. I will definitely post which option we choose, and some photos of the final product (which probably won't be ready until spring). Almost everyone we've talked to to seem to be most impressed with Option 3. It's nice to see some consensus, but of course that's the most expensive option :)

honey-barbara: From your description, I'm picturing option 3 (2D plan), but with the door to the bathroom in the top-right corner moved to the short side of the room, just above the stairs (where I've shown a closet rod currently). Is that right?

lalex, like_neon: Thanks for the suggestion about a translucent / open divider for Option 3. That's a neat alternative to a kitchen peninsula (which I don't think there's room for).

everythings_interrelated: I don't think an addition, however small, is in the budget cards, but I'll look into it. We're probably stuck with options that fit in the 18' x 28' space (minus the stacked staircase).
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:15 PM on October 6, 2017


Response by poster: FYI, here's a version of option 3 with a kitchen peninsula added between the kitchen and living areas. I like the look and extra space this gives, but it forces us to reduce the table to seat four, and even that barely fits.
Option 3b 3D from above

And for completeness, here's a version with a permanent island (with cabinetry) instead of a dining table
Option 3c 3D from above
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:35 PM on October 6, 2017


Yes, I was picturing a door to the WC entering where your closet is, opposite the door to your cellar.

My house is 18’ wide too - so I feel the space jiggling - and I think where you allocated services is what I visualized. I visualized lining up with stairs to create a more seamless long wall. And I wouldn’t make the island permanent (in my house anyway. My table is on wheels and when I have parties I can take it outside on the deck.)

btw, opening up the two windows into one stacker full height system would dramatically add to the look. (Again, it’s what I did in my house) But I see you want to have oven etc there.
posted by honey-barbara at 4:05 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]


Option 3 is still in style right now, but I think that extreme open concept may be on the way out, and will look dated soon. So, I'm thinking about how to do option 1, but keeping a bathroom somewhere.

When I look for underused space on the overheads, it's in the entryway. What if the stairway's bottom treads take a 90-degree turn? You'd take down the wall between the entryway and living room. Then, a bathroom would fit in the lower right of the overhead. (You could also fit a coat closet to the left of the front door of you want.) If that doesn't work for the stairs to the basement, could they parallel the same turn?
posted by daisyace at 4:41 AM on October 8, 2017 [1 favorite]


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