mentoring a slow coworker
October 5, 2017 7:15 AM Subscribe
I am a newish hire. I have been asked to "mentor" a younger, less experienced new hire who is not my report, on work that isn't for my projects. He asks me to solve problems I think he should be solving on his own, or at least with significantly more independent effort before asking for help. How much of this is reasonable?
I have been with Company for about 3 mos. I am not a manager; I am a widget maker with about 4 years experience in widget making. The week after I was hired, we got another new widget maker on my team, same title, 1-2 years experience. We need all the help we can get and we all have full loads. My manager is impressed with my output so far and asked me to mentor the less experienced team member. He's struggling a little. He just doesn't have good intuitions about widget making yet, and instead of making bad ones, seeing that they are bad, looking up his mistakes and trying again, he asks me why his widgets are bad. I say things like "you made a widget with 12 pegs and you're trying to fit it to another widget with 11 slots. You need a widget with 12 slots or 11 pegs. Here is the documentation on widget pegs btw" This takes one to two hours of my week, sometimes more if I need to remake his widget for him when he still doesn't get it and a client is expecting it. I know I probably need to nicely start refusing to tell him the answers and I want to say "you have a skill gap here, these are resources you need to review and the questions you need to ask yourself before you ask for help," but he's not my report, I don't want him to hate me, and I can't make him read the docs. I recognize where he's at because I was there at one point myself, but I got myself to where I am now under my own steam with great difficulty given bias against and lack of mentoring for women like me in our field, not with the benefit of hand holding. I'm doing well now because I try to get myself unstuck until I'm out of ideas, and that's part of the job and I don't want to be the one to tell him he's failing at that. But our team will benefit and everyone's load will get lighter if I can help him in a way that sets him up to be independent and that's why my manager asked me to spend time with him - I just don't know how to get it through to him in minimal time with him doing the heavy lifting.
How do I start saying "try Google/read the documentation/fix your typos/here's an online cheat sheet" to younger team member in the most constructive possible way that he'll actually absorb? Where possible I try to explain my thought process and impart good habits but he continues to ask me for more help than appropriate for his level and I don't know if I'm just teaching him to treat me like his personal Youtube tutorial. How much "mentoring" of less experienced coworkers is normal in your experience when a person is an advanced degreed professional but not a manager or team lead?
I have been with Company for about 3 mos. I am not a manager; I am a widget maker with about 4 years experience in widget making. The week after I was hired, we got another new widget maker on my team, same title, 1-2 years experience. We need all the help we can get and we all have full loads. My manager is impressed with my output so far and asked me to mentor the less experienced team member. He's struggling a little. He just doesn't have good intuitions about widget making yet, and instead of making bad ones, seeing that they are bad, looking up his mistakes and trying again, he asks me why his widgets are bad. I say things like "you made a widget with 12 pegs and you're trying to fit it to another widget with 11 slots. You need a widget with 12 slots or 11 pegs. Here is the documentation on widget pegs btw" This takes one to two hours of my week, sometimes more if I need to remake his widget for him when he still doesn't get it and a client is expecting it. I know I probably need to nicely start refusing to tell him the answers and I want to say "you have a skill gap here, these are resources you need to review and the questions you need to ask yourself before you ask for help," but he's not my report, I don't want him to hate me, and I can't make him read the docs. I recognize where he's at because I was there at one point myself, but I got myself to where I am now under my own steam with great difficulty given bias against and lack of mentoring for women like me in our field, not with the benefit of hand holding. I'm doing well now because I try to get myself unstuck until I'm out of ideas, and that's part of the job and I don't want to be the one to tell him he's failing at that. But our team will benefit and everyone's load will get lighter if I can help him in a way that sets him up to be independent and that's why my manager asked me to spend time with him - I just don't know how to get it through to him in minimal time with him doing the heavy lifting.
How do I start saying "try Google/read the documentation/fix your typos/here's an online cheat sheet" to younger team member in the most constructive possible way that he'll actually absorb? Where possible I try to explain my thought process and impart good habits but he continues to ask me for more help than appropriate for his level and I don't know if I'm just teaching him to treat me like his personal Youtube tutorial. How much "mentoring" of less experienced coworkers is normal in your experience when a person is an advanced degreed professional but not a manager or team lead?
He just doesn't have good intuitions about widget making yet, and instead of making bad ones, seeing that they are bad, looking up his mistakes and trying again, he asks me why his widgets are bad. I say things like "you made a widget with 12 pegs and you're trying to fit it to another widget with 11 slots. You need a widget with 12 slots or 11 pegs. Here is the documentation on widget pegs btw" This takes one to two hours of my week, sometimes more if I need to remake his widget for him when he still doesn't get it and a client is expecting it.
Erm... this all seems pretty normal for someone in a mentoring role. Maybe clarify with your boss how much time you're expected to spend mentoring vs. other priorities, but to me 1-2 hours a week sounds very reasonable for something you've officially been asked to do as part of your job.
And I mean.... why do you think he would be making bad widgets if he knows they're bad? Yes, he should be making an effort to figure out how to fix his mistakes, but pointing out what he's doing wrong (and yes, helping him fix it if he can't figure it out) is exactly what mentoring is.
So I'm not super clear on what the problem is. If you want to encourage him to problem solve more, you could guide him towards that, maybe walk him through what you would do to problem solve something you didn't know how to do, if you didn't have anyone to ask.
posted by randomnity at 7:32 AM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Erm... this all seems pretty normal for someone in a mentoring role. Maybe clarify with your boss how much time you're expected to spend mentoring vs. other priorities, but to me 1-2 hours a week sounds very reasonable for something you've officially been asked to do as part of your job.
And I mean.... why do you think he would be making bad widgets if he knows they're bad? Yes, he should be making an effort to figure out how to fix his mistakes, but pointing out what he's doing wrong (and yes, helping him fix it if he can't figure it out) is exactly what mentoring is.
So I'm not super clear on what the problem is. If you want to encourage him to problem solve more, you could guide him towards that, maybe walk him through what you would do to problem solve something you didn't know how to do, if you didn't have anyone to ask.
posted by randomnity at 7:32 AM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Are you meeting regularly with your manager to discuss your own work and projects?
I ask because you're very new to this position and in a field with a bias toward men/against women. I would suggest working this through with full transparency with your manager (who I assume is also his manager). The format I would use is something like,
"I'd like to update you on my work with NewGuy. I've noticed the following about his work - (something nice, something nice) (problem area). To handle problem area, my next steps are to do Thing one, Thing two. If problem area hasn't improved by the end of Time Period, I'm considering Thing Three, to ensure he can transition smoothly into independent widgetmaking by the end of Longer Time Period."
That way your manager knows you're thinking things through logically, planning, and problem-solving, and you get her/his buy-in for your plans, whatever they turn out to be.
posted by invincible summer at 7:34 AM on October 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
I ask because you're very new to this position and in a field with a bias toward men/against women. I would suggest working this through with full transparency with your manager (who I assume is also his manager). The format I would use is something like,
"I'd like to update you on my work with NewGuy. I've noticed the following about his work - (something nice, something nice) (problem area). To handle problem area, my next steps are to do Thing one, Thing two. If problem area hasn't improved by the end of Time Period, I'm considering Thing Three, to ensure he can transition smoothly into independent widgetmaking by the end of Longer Time Period."
That way your manager knows you're thinking things through logically, planning, and problem-solving, and you get her/his buy-in for your plans, whatever they turn out to be.
posted by invincible summer at 7:34 AM on October 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
If I were this guy (and let's assume maximum goodwill on his part), I think I might need something spelled out very clearly, like:
"The best way for you to learn to make widgets is to develop your widget-research and widget-intuition skills. Right now our primary goal isn't just to get you to make a widget, it's to give you special widget skills, so when you get stuck, let's move from having you come to me to having you work through these steps:
....whatever the steps are - internet research, searching the documents, searching particularly useful bulletin board discussions, etc
Also, is he building some kind of job-aid when he does hit problems? I have a shared google doc with my boss which gets updated with changes to procedures, things I think I'm likely to forget, etc, and which my boss reviews and comments on every so often.
It may be that he's hung up on the "make a widget right now" mentality...and on the one hand, obviously you do want to get those widgets out the door, but OTOH, if he's feeling like the most important thing is to finish the widget right now, he may be unconsciously pushing to talk to you because he feels like it's the quickest way to resolve the problem and that this is best.
My thought is to spell out to him that what he should be learning is how to learn, and that mostly has to be self-taught.
posted by Frowner at 7:35 AM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
"The best way for you to learn to make widgets is to develop your widget-research and widget-intuition skills. Right now our primary goal isn't just to get you to make a widget, it's to give you special widget skills, so when you get stuck, let's move from having you come to me to having you work through these steps:
....whatever the steps are - internet research, searching the documents, searching particularly useful bulletin board discussions, etc
Also, is he building some kind of job-aid when he does hit problems? I have a shared google doc with my boss which gets updated with changes to procedures, things I think I'm likely to forget, etc, and which my boss reviews and comments on every so often.
It may be that he's hung up on the "make a widget right now" mentality...and on the one hand, obviously you do want to get those widgets out the door, but OTOH, if he's feeling like the most important thing is to finish the widget right now, he may be unconsciously pushing to talk to you because he feels like it's the quickest way to resolve the problem and that this is best.
My thought is to spell out to him that what he should be learning is how to learn, and that mostly has to be self-taught.
posted by Frowner at 7:35 AM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Casual mentoring relationships like this are relatively common. I set these up routinely within my teams. It's not just for the mentee. Nothing solidifies a skillset within a person like teaching it to someone else.
Assuming the mentoring relationship is formalized (and if it isn't, bring it up to your boss and make it formal), apply some structure to your mentoring time. Document a training plan complete with a schedule, goals and deadlines. You don't have to be a direct manager to apply expectations to a relationship. If you want the mentee to show agency and initiative, make it clear that you require it as a pre-requisite of working with them. Explain the format and give specific instructions with general time constrictions. First, present me with a summary of your current work. Next, come prepared with questions and 3 solutions you are noodling with and we'll work on them, etc, etc.
This does two things: it clarifies the expectations and rules of engagement for your mentee and covers your butt to your manager if your mentee doesn't improve by creating a quantifiable plan that proves you dove into the task you were given, put in the effort, and did your absolute best to assure success.
Mentoring is a function of management. This task may be an indication that their considering your long term track and throwing you some softballs to see if you can rise to the occasion. This is as much an opportunity for you to show what you can do as it is to develop your coworker - use it wisely!
posted by amycup at 7:53 AM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Assuming the mentoring relationship is formalized (and if it isn't, bring it up to your boss and make it formal), apply some structure to your mentoring time. Document a training plan complete with a schedule, goals and deadlines. You don't have to be a direct manager to apply expectations to a relationship. If you want the mentee to show agency and initiative, make it clear that you require it as a pre-requisite of working with them. Explain the format and give specific instructions with general time constrictions. First, present me with a summary of your current work. Next, come prepared with questions and 3 solutions you are noodling with and we'll work on them, etc, etc.
This does two things: it clarifies the expectations and rules of engagement for your mentee and covers your butt to your manager if your mentee doesn't improve by creating a quantifiable plan that proves you dove into the task you were given, put in the effort, and did your absolute best to assure success.
Mentoring is a function of management. This task may be an indication that their considering your long term track and throwing you some softballs to see if you can rise to the occasion. This is as much an opportunity for you to show what you can do as it is to develop your coworker - use it wisely!
posted by amycup at 7:53 AM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've been in your exact position. Here's what I wish I'd done:
Sit down together and plan out specific deliverable parts or goals in what he's working on. If that's not possible, timebox things by saying "I want you to try to get to point X, here are the materials I'd use as reference, we'll regroup at this time and review your progress." The understanding is that he'll work independently until that time, at which you'll review what he's gotten done and answer questions.
Alternatively, if he needs more hand-holding, define a goal (as in the prior scenario) and schedule a block of time where you'll complete that task together. Then, at least, he should be able to do that part on his own, with fewer questions.
posted by mikeh at 7:56 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sit down together and plan out specific deliverable parts or goals in what he's working on. If that's not possible, timebox things by saying "I want you to try to get to point X, here are the materials I'd use as reference, we'll regroup at this time and review your progress." The understanding is that he'll work independently until that time, at which you'll review what he's gotten done and answer questions.
Alternatively, if he needs more hand-holding, define a goal (as in the prior scenario) and schedule a block of time where you'll complete that task together. Then, at least, he should be able to do that part on his own, with fewer questions.
posted by mikeh at 7:56 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe instead of mentoring him on to make widgets, you can work on teaching him how to help himself. I might say something like ‘Here’s the documentation. Go back and review these and try to figure out where you got off course. If you’re still stuck in a 2 hours (or whatever timeframe is appropriate) come back and tell me what you’ve tried and what went wrong.”
posted by cgg at 8:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by cgg at 8:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you want him to use Google as a reference instead of picking your brain which is full of answers, then lean over his shoulder, talk through the search query, type it into the search field and show him that the answer can be found on the internet, rather than only in your head. (He may get value added tips and context from you that Google doesn't provide.) But if you want him to take a different approach, point it out very explicitly. People without skills sometimes don't actually know how to do skill. (This could go over the line to insulting. If you think my shoulder lean idea is way too insulting, then ask him "Did you google it?" Repeat as often as you need to.)
Does he actually know what a quality widget looks like and how to evaluate it? Is there a step by step evaluation process that other people use?
posted by puddledork at 8:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Does he actually know what a quality widget looks like and how to evaluate it? Is there a step by step evaluation process that other people use?
posted by puddledork at 8:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I know I probably need to nicely start refusing to tell him the answers and I want to say "you have a skill gap here, these are resources you need to review and the questions you need to ask yourself before you ask for help"
Yes, as his mentor, you want to spend more time teaching him process than editing his work. Next time he asks you why his widgets are bad, you could try taking a more teaching-style approach. Show him the step-by-step process you usually go through when a widget isn't working. Teach him how to search the documentation to find useful info. Make sure he takes notes.
Then when he comes back to you and asks you to tell him why the widget is bad, ask him "What did you try to do to find this information?" And if he didn't do anything, tell him to go back, try the steps you wrote down together, and get back to you.
I mean, it's certainly possible he just lacks some core process-thinking and critical-thinking competencies for the job, and that's where the other comments' advice about sharing updates with your manager comes in. Don't be judgmental of him and his fit for the widget maker position, just factually state what happened "I'm frustrated because he and I went over these steps x number of times, he wrote them down, I asked him to reference his notes and walk through his process, but he still comes to me with questions that are in the documentation. What do you recommend?"
How much "mentoring" of less experienced coworkers is normal in your experience when a person is an advanced degreed professional but not a manager or team lead?
So...ideally a lot, at good companies that care about their staff. That's for a number of reasons. 1) If you have really awesome processes and strategies, your company wants you to share them so everyone can benefit. 2) New staff want to learn from someone "like them," not always a supervisor where feedback is high-stakes and sometimes at the wrong altitude. 3) You may one day manage people and this is a way for you to upskill in teaching. You can and should be documenting your mentoring work when you come up for merit pay/promotion.
If you have a good manager, they should also be receptive to conversation about why you're struggling with mentoring--again, don't make it about the new widget maker but about your own skill building--"I find that it's a challenge for me to deliver feedback in a constructive way. What do you do in this situation and how do you make sure your feedback is actionable?"
posted by capricorn at 8:37 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, as his mentor, you want to spend more time teaching him process than editing his work. Next time he asks you why his widgets are bad, you could try taking a more teaching-style approach. Show him the step-by-step process you usually go through when a widget isn't working. Teach him how to search the documentation to find useful info. Make sure he takes notes.
Then when he comes back to you and asks you to tell him why the widget is bad, ask him "What did you try to do to find this information?" And if he didn't do anything, tell him to go back, try the steps you wrote down together, and get back to you.
I mean, it's certainly possible he just lacks some core process-thinking and critical-thinking competencies for the job, and that's where the other comments' advice about sharing updates with your manager comes in. Don't be judgmental of him and his fit for the widget maker position, just factually state what happened "I'm frustrated because he and I went over these steps x number of times, he wrote them down, I asked him to reference his notes and walk through his process, but he still comes to me with questions that are in the documentation. What do you recommend?"
How much "mentoring" of less experienced coworkers is normal in your experience when a person is an advanced degreed professional but not a manager or team lead?
So...ideally a lot, at good companies that care about their staff. That's for a number of reasons. 1) If you have really awesome processes and strategies, your company wants you to share them so everyone can benefit. 2) New staff want to learn from someone "like them," not always a supervisor where feedback is high-stakes and sometimes at the wrong altitude. 3) You may one day manage people and this is a way for you to upskill in teaching. You can and should be documenting your mentoring work when you come up for merit pay/promotion.
If you have a good manager, they should also be receptive to conversation about why you're struggling with mentoring--again, don't make it about the new widget maker but about your own skill building--"I find that it's a challenge for me to deliver feedback in a constructive way. What do you do in this situation and how do you make sure your feedback is actionable?"
posted by capricorn at 8:37 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
After training / mentoring a new hire, you'll be in a great position to negotiate a raise or new job title. Keep that in mind and keep your boss looped in to your process (in a positive, goal oriented way that doesn't demand much from your boss) as you train the new person strategically in how to learn the skill of fishing.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:59 AM on October 5, 2017
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:59 AM on October 5, 2017
This type of thing is tough, but a great way to show your boss your leadership potential, and to practice navigating complex relationships at work.
Here's my MO for dealing with these types of requests. Instead of this:
"you made a widget with 12 pegs and you're trying to fit it to another widget with 11 slots. You need a widget with 12 slots or 11 pegs. Here is the documentation on widget pegs btw"
Try this:
"I think you'll see where you went wrong if you review the Widget Pegs Tutorial I sent you last week. I'm attaching it here again; have another look through it, paying special attention of pages 13-15, and let me know if you still have questions."
Rinse and repeat.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:00 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here's my MO for dealing with these types of requests. Instead of this:
"you made a widget with 12 pegs and you're trying to fit it to another widget with 11 slots. You need a widget with 12 slots or 11 pegs. Here is the documentation on widget pegs btw"
Try this:
"I think you'll see where you went wrong if you review the Widget Pegs Tutorial I sent you last week. I'm attaching it here again; have another look through it, paying special attention of pages 13-15, and let me know if you still have questions."
Rinse and repeat.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:00 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Does he even realize you're his mentor? "This takes one to two hours of my week, sometimes more if I need to remake his widget for him when he still doesn't get it and a client is expecting it." When you're a woman in an industry biased against women, slackers will gladly offload their work onto you. All three of you (you, slow co-worker, shared manager who may be delegating some management responsibilities to you and calling it mentoring) need to formalize this mentoring agreement.
Then you can have scheduled check-ins, call him on not reading the instructions you've helpfully, repeatedly provided, and protect your own time/productivity against incursions.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Then you can have scheduled check-ins, call him on not reading the instructions you've helpfully, repeatedly provided, and protect your own time/productivity against incursions.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
With your boss's approval, I think in the long run it could be a more effective use of your time to schedule regular check-in meetings. Ask Young Widget Maker to come prepared with a list of questions. And to the greatest degree possible, tell Young Widget Maker "Great question, let's go over the answer/ your widget making technique at the next check-in meeting."
Also-- "Young Widget Maker, I found Widget Making for Dummies, The Idiot's Guide to Widget Making, and the Widget Making Channel on Youtube to be more accessible resources than The Widget Technical Documentation of Doom."
posted by oceano at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also-- "Young Widget Maker, I found Widget Making for Dummies, The Idiot's Guide to Widget Making, and the Widget Making Channel on Youtube to be more accessible resources than The Widget Technical Documentation of Doom."
posted by oceano at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hmm, I think I have different thoughts on this then other respondents do.
#1, you're here to support, but he is not your priority, and unless your boss tells you otherwise, his emergencies (his widget is needed urgently by the Client) are not your emergencies.
To that end:
-Schedule time with him each week. When he brings you issues outside the normally scheduled time, refer him back to the references you provided him, commiserate briefly and wish him good luck working on #project. Return to your work.
-When he brings you issues during your time together, start by framing it "I want you to be able to get as much as possible out of our time together..." and ask him to come ready to tell you what he observes is the issue, what he thinks is the problem that needs to be solved, and what he's done independently to solve it.
-Don't do his work for him. This is a hard part of mentoring, because if you're good at your job, it is really easy to just grab the mouse-er, widget, and do it for him. This is a wonderful skill to work on developing in yourself. How can you stimulate thought and encourage him to learn how to do things himself? This takes self-control, and more time than just doing it yourself, but it is highly worthwhile.
posted by arnicae at 1:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
#1, you're here to support, but he is not your priority, and unless your boss tells you otherwise, his emergencies (his widget is needed urgently by the Client) are not your emergencies.
To that end:
-Schedule time with him each week. When he brings you issues outside the normally scheduled time, refer him back to the references you provided him, commiserate briefly and wish him good luck working on #project. Return to your work.
-When he brings you issues during your time together, start by framing it "I want you to be able to get as much as possible out of our time together..." and ask him to come ready to tell you what he observes is the issue, what he thinks is the problem that needs to be solved, and what he's done independently to solve it.
-Don't do his work for him. This is a hard part of mentoring, because if you're good at your job, it is really easy to just grab the mouse-er, widget, and do it for him. This is a wonderful skill to work on developing in yourself. How can you stimulate thought and encourage him to learn how to do things himself? This takes self-control, and more time than just doing it yourself, but it is highly worthwhile.
posted by arnicae at 1:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, doing small parts of a task yourself while the mentee watches can actually be a good way for them to learn particularly nonintuituve steps in a process, if they are the sort of person who can learn that way.
That said, some people simply will never learn by watching, so it helps to know how your mentee learns most easily.
Of course, it's also entirely possible your mentee will never learn. Georgia had someone like that. He BSed his way onto her team just as she was taking over and even after two years still couldn't do simple processes on his own. Even though people walked him through it several months before leaving him to try it on his own, he complained bitterly about nobody being willing to help him and on and on. Always an excuse. It would have been more believable that he was putting forth effort to learn rather than hoping to get other team members to do his work for him if he ever took notes without being prompted or could even find them on the rare occasion he did take them. Basically, there was zero chance that he was going to succeed in a detail-oriented role because he refused to work in a way that is conducive to not missing the details or find a way that worked for him.
Point being, document how much time you are spending, the level of questions he is asking, your responses, and a general evaluation of his progress. If he does turn out to be a jackass who expects everyone else to do his work for him, it can turn into the sort of shit show where ass covering is required.
Hopefully it won't be that sort of situation and the fellow is just a bit slow and needs some help with the trickier parts of your org's particular process, as some people are, especially if your org's processes tend to be strange/overcomplicated compared to others in the industry.
posted by wierdo at 2:33 PM on October 5, 2017
That said, some people simply will never learn by watching, so it helps to know how your mentee learns most easily.
Of course, it's also entirely possible your mentee will never learn. Georgia had someone like that. He BSed his way onto her team just as she was taking over and even after two years still couldn't do simple processes on his own. Even though people walked him through it several months before leaving him to try it on his own, he complained bitterly about nobody being willing to help him and on and on. Always an excuse. It would have been more believable that he was putting forth effort to learn rather than hoping to get other team members to do his work for him if he ever took notes without being prompted or could even find them on the rare occasion he did take them. Basically, there was zero chance that he was going to succeed in a detail-oriented role because he refused to work in a way that is conducive to not missing the details or find a way that worked for him.
Point being, document how much time you are spending, the level of questions he is asking, your responses, and a general evaluation of his progress. If he does turn out to be a jackass who expects everyone else to do his work for him, it can turn into the sort of shit show where ass covering is required.
Hopefully it won't be that sort of situation and the fellow is just a bit slow and needs some help with the trickier parts of your org's particular process, as some people are, especially if your org's processes tend to be strange/overcomplicated compared to others in the industry.
posted by wierdo at 2:33 PM on October 5, 2017
I don't have any advice for you, just commiseration.
It is incredibly annoying when somebody expects you to teach them things that you learned by going out and figuring out yourself, especially in the workplace.
One of the previous commenters said you're a woman in a male-dominated workspace, I'm going to assume they know that as a fact, and just say this expeiece is probably especailly galling in that context because showing ignorance as a woman in field where there arent many women can make people judge you as not cut out for the role, whereas showing ignorance as a dude just means you're still learning. You also probably havent had people jumping up to mentor you, or even a bunch of casual buddy relationships that can help a new person get up to speed.
So anyway, I'm sorry. It's super annoying. I wish I had good advice for you.
posted by mrmurbles at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
It is incredibly annoying when somebody expects you to teach them things that you learned by going out and figuring out yourself, especially in the workplace.
One of the previous commenters said you're a woman in a male-dominated workspace, I'm going to assume they know that as a fact, and just say this expeiece is probably especailly galling in that context because showing ignorance as a woman in field where there arent many women can make people judge you as not cut out for the role, whereas showing ignorance as a dude just means you're still learning. You also probably havent had people jumping up to mentor you, or even a bunch of casual buddy relationships that can help a new person get up to speed.
So anyway, I'm sorry. It's super annoying. I wish I had good advice for you.
posted by mrmurbles at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The asker's gender is mentioned in the question: "I recognize where he's at because I was there at one point myself, but I got myself to where I am now under my own steam with great difficulty given bias against and lack of mentoring for women like me in our field, not with the benefit of hand holding." (Emphasis mine.) OP, if I've misread that, I apologize. I still hold that formally acknowledging and defining this mentorship is to your benefit.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:31 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:31 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sounds like this is part of your job now. I do tons of shit every day that isn't part of my official job description, but it needs doing, and I'm the one best-placed to do it, so I ensure it gets done. Most of the stuff I'm best-placed to do I figured out on my own once upon a time, but we aren't going to get very far as a species (*stifles laughter*) if we all gotta independently learn the same shit all the time. This is literally what teaching, training, and mentoring is for.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am not a manager
do you not want to be? because this is a test to see if you can be. If he were your direct report he would most likely not be the only one, and redoing incompetent people's work for them is not even possible, let alone a good idea, when you're responsible for more than one. as you will be at some point, unless that's not a normal career progression in your field.
the gender dynamics make this much more fraught and rational anxiety-producing than it ought to be, but you cannot both manage (or "mentor") this kid and worry so much about how exactly to say "kid, you have to google stuff you don't understand because my time is valuable and you do not benefit from having me show you things you can find out for yourself. consult with me when you need expert advice." this isn't mean unless you say it in a deliberately mean way (or actually call him Kid to his face.) part of being a manager or even just a mentor is really believing that it's for them to fear your bad opinion of their work, not for you to fear how your opinions sound when you say them.
Knowing what's a problem to bring to you and what's a normal difficulty to solve himself is one of the things that he doesn't know and needs to be told, by a mentor. tell him! and don't waste your valuable time worrying about how to put it or how to slip it by so he doesn't realize he's being told. he needs to get told. he is coming to you to learn to fish and you are cooking him elaborate fish dinners and that is not fair to you but also not to him.
if he and the company are both so terrible and sexist that this approach will both fail and hurt you, and I know that is possible, go behind his back to tell your own manager that you have given it your very best efforts but he's unteachable and his only acceptable widgets have been the ones you made yourself. and definitely have some record/proof of whenever he's turning in work that you did for him. can't stress that last thing enough, not with all the html in the world. but only crush him under a bus after you try telling him what you said in this question and it fails.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
do you not want to be? because this is a test to see if you can be. If he were your direct report he would most likely not be the only one, and redoing incompetent people's work for them is not even possible, let alone a good idea, when you're responsible for more than one. as you will be at some point, unless that's not a normal career progression in your field.
the gender dynamics make this much more fraught and rational anxiety-producing than it ought to be, but you cannot both manage (or "mentor") this kid and worry so much about how exactly to say "kid, you have to google stuff you don't understand because my time is valuable and you do not benefit from having me show you things you can find out for yourself. consult with me when you need expert advice." this isn't mean unless you say it in a deliberately mean way (or actually call him Kid to his face.) part of being a manager or even just a mentor is really believing that it's for them to fear your bad opinion of their work, not for you to fear how your opinions sound when you say them.
Knowing what's a problem to bring to you and what's a normal difficulty to solve himself is one of the things that he doesn't know and needs to be told, by a mentor. tell him! and don't waste your valuable time worrying about how to put it or how to slip it by so he doesn't realize he's being told. he needs to get told. he is coming to you to learn to fish and you are cooking him elaborate fish dinners and that is not fair to you but also not to him.
if he and the company are both so terrible and sexist that this approach will both fail and hurt you, and I know that is possible, go behind his back to tell your own manager that you have given it your very best efforts but he's unteachable and his only acceptable widgets have been the ones you made yourself. and definitely have some record/proof of whenever he's turning in work that you did for him. can't stress that last thing enough, not with all the html in the world. but only crush him under a bus after you try telling him what you said in this question and it fails.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Mentoring or coaching is required in a lot of jobs much below manager level. It is up to you to define expectations of your role with your boss to make sure you understand what they are looking for and to make sure this gets embedded in your performance goals in a way you will get credit for. And once you're clear on that you can set clear expectations with your mentee. Your role is to point them, not do their work for them. And you are only going to point them after they have tried to solve the problem themselves. They can do their own troubleshooting by doing a, b, c. If they underperform this is down to them, not you. The end.
And 2nding the people telling you to be more blunt. I've just had to be really blunt and tell a direct report that I had now requested a fairly simple but essential task multiple times, that I had shared resources about the new to them tool and highlighted they needed to learn long before requesting the task, that I had showed them an example when I made the request and they still hadn't done it - over a period of weeks. Then week before last I sat down next to them to walk them through it step by step and it turned out they had an IT problem preventing them from even getting into the tool...so despite my multiple requests they hadn't even tried to get into the tool (!)...so last Monday morning I asked about the IT problem, told them it was now a matter of urgency, they were going to get their IT problem fixed and do the task or find somebody to do it for them or with them and get it sorted one way or another. Apparently the IT problem is resolved as of today but the task is still not complete. So on Monday morning I'll ask that I get confirmation by end of day that the task has been completed.
To put this into context this is in a line of work where people are expected to learn how to problem solve and acquire knowledge independently from day one and this is not a newbie but somebody who has worked for a few years. So sending a quick reference guide and links to relevant intranet resources should go a long way but apparently not so much, zero initiative, nada. That's part of a wider conversation I am starting to have with them.
But sometimes you have to be really blunt. Especially as a woman that can feel awkward because society would have you be 'nice' at all times.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:55 AM on October 6, 2017
And 2nding the people telling you to be more blunt. I've just had to be really blunt and tell a direct report that I had now requested a fairly simple but essential task multiple times, that I had shared resources about the new to them tool and highlighted they needed to learn long before requesting the task, that I had showed them an example when I made the request and they still hadn't done it - over a period of weeks. Then week before last I sat down next to them to walk them through it step by step and it turned out they had an IT problem preventing them from even getting into the tool...so despite my multiple requests they hadn't even tried to get into the tool (!)...so last Monday morning I asked about the IT problem, told them it was now a matter of urgency, they were going to get their IT problem fixed and do the task or find somebody to do it for them or with them and get it sorted one way or another. Apparently the IT problem is resolved as of today but the task is still not complete. So on Monday morning I'll ask that I get confirmation by end of day that the task has been completed.
To put this into context this is in a line of work where people are expected to learn how to problem solve and acquire knowledge independently from day one and this is not a newbie but somebody who has worked for a few years. So sending a quick reference guide and links to relevant intranet resources should go a long way but apparently not so much, zero initiative, nada. That's part of a wider conversation I am starting to have with them.
But sometimes you have to be really blunt. Especially as a woman that can feel awkward because society would have you be 'nice' at all times.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:55 AM on October 6, 2017
This kind of thing might drive me crazy, too. On the one hand, some of the commenters are right, and this could be your boss's way of seeing if you are suitable for management. On the other hand, given the widespread gender issues at play in many workplaces, he or she might just be offloading the hassle of dealing with a new guy onto you. This can be doubly frustrating when you feel like you never got anybody's time or support when you could have used it early on.
That said, for whatever reason, this is on your plate, and this leapt out at me:
"you have a skill gap here, these are resources you need to review and the questions you need to ask yourself before you ask for help," but he's not my report, I don't want him to hate me,
Assuming this guy is not a complete jerk, he is not going to hate you for giving him guidance and feedback. I'd set aside some time to talk to him, maybe over coffee or something, and phrase it a bit more gently than you have above (heh). You could start by saying something along the lines of "You've been here at Widget Company for XX weeks, and you're doing great at XXX. But, I've noticed a few common patterns, and I think it's time we gave you the tools to work through some of these situations without coming to me, because I might not always be available to you. So, here's my first cut of a checklist for the things you should go through on your own before you bring the problem to someone else. What do you think? Can you think of any additional steps, or contingencies?"
If you get him to collaborate on the checklist, it will seem less like you are dictating to him. Also, this is probably not the first time you will have a junior colleague to mentor, so preparing something like this might be of help to you or others in the future. Just make sure your boss knows about the time you are spending, and how proactive and engaged you are.
posted by rpfields at 4:41 PM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
That said, for whatever reason, this is on your plate, and this leapt out at me:
"you have a skill gap here, these are resources you need to review and the questions you need to ask yourself before you ask for help," but he's not my report, I don't want him to hate me,
Assuming this guy is not a complete jerk, he is not going to hate you for giving him guidance and feedback. I'd set aside some time to talk to him, maybe over coffee or something, and phrase it a bit more gently than you have above (heh). You could start by saying something along the lines of "You've been here at Widget Company for XX weeks, and you're doing great at XXX. But, I've noticed a few common patterns, and I think it's time we gave you the tools to work through some of these situations without coming to me, because I might not always be available to you. So, here's my first cut of a checklist for the things you should go through on your own before you bring the problem to someone else. What do you think? Can you think of any additional steps, or contingencies?"
If you get him to collaborate on the checklist, it will seem less like you are dictating to him. Also, this is probably not the first time you will have a junior colleague to mentor, so preparing something like this might be of help to you or others in the future. Just make sure your boss knows about the time you are spending, and how proactive and engaged you are.
posted by rpfields at 4:41 PM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
How much "mentoring" of less experienced coworkers is normal in your experience when a person is an advanced degreed professional but not a manager or team lead?
It depends but honestly in my area 1-2 hours a week helping is barely of "a good team player helping others in the course of normal work." If I asked someone to help get a weak/inexperienced team member up to speed I certainly would not be surprised to find it was taking 10% or more of their time.
Not to say you aren't being treated unfairly in terms of total expectations, and/or being underappreciated. Mentoring is a vague term, and maybe your boss thinks you should be spending an hour a week and that should be plenty.
-------------
Possibly constructive advice to make things better:
Try framing the problem in your head as figuring out what will work for him. You really seem to be looking at the things that work for you and assuming that if he's successful this is how he'll approach things.
View this mentally as another job challenge for yourself. The same way you found a way to overcome widget challenges when you were learning, well, think back to that and apply the same grit & innovation to overcome mentoring challenges now. This is the next stage in *your* learning. Your job is to hep this particular person thrive as much as possible, not write him off and wait for someone smarter. Mentoring is a skill and can be really frustrating when it's not working out, but it is so satisfying those happy times when you watch someone you've helped succeed and they feel good about themselves. I sure as hell wish I were better at it.
Here are few coaching 'tricks' that I've gotten from better managers than me:
1) Ask non-judgmental questions to help him identify what the problem is. This is classic advice though TBH I find it takes a lot of skill to use (which basically means I'm not good at it.)
2) This one though has worked really well for me: Next time he's stumped ask him to come up with five possible approaches to a problem, then check back with him the next day. He has to tell you all five even if he's sure #1 is the best. Often people come up with one plausible approach, think it's good because they came up with it, then jump down that road and get married to it even if it's a dead end. They'll defend it when you point out the flaws. When they had the ability to come up with much better approaches the whole time. When this works for someone it's really empowering for them.
3) The "pre-mortem." After he decides on an approach, ask him to imagine that he's looking back, that it failed, and then imagine why it failed. He has to come up with something, no matter how implausible. Like #2, the idea is to not get too seduced by your first idea that you stop thinking.
4) Remind him to draw on his own experience. If he proposes X to solve a problem, has he done something similar before? If not why not and why is this a good idea this time? If so what were the challenges? How long does X usually take and does that match his estimate this time?
The trick on all of these of course is you are not solving his problems or even telling him how to solve his own problems. You're trying to trick him to coming up with his own solutions, so if he succeeds he learns he doesn't need you.
My last comment is that I would never make a widget for him. You are not responsible for his widgets being on time; trying to make his widgets is just a way to cover up your failure in mentoring him (or his incompetence, however you want to look at it, but either way that is so not your job). Furthermore you taking over signals to him loud and clear that you think he's a failure and hopeless at this widget making thing. Even if you're not aware you are thinking that, even if he's stupid, trust me that he's getting that message when this happens. Let him take the heat if they don't work out.
posted by mark k at 7:35 PM on October 6, 2017
It depends but honestly in my area 1-2 hours a week helping is barely of "a good team player helping others in the course of normal work." If I asked someone to help get a weak/inexperienced team member up to speed I certainly would not be surprised to find it was taking 10% or more of their time.
Not to say you aren't being treated unfairly in terms of total expectations, and/or being underappreciated. Mentoring is a vague term, and maybe your boss thinks you should be spending an hour a week and that should be plenty.
-------------
Possibly constructive advice to make things better:
Try framing the problem in your head as figuring out what will work for him. You really seem to be looking at the things that work for you and assuming that if he's successful this is how he'll approach things.
View this mentally as another job challenge for yourself. The same way you found a way to overcome widget challenges when you were learning, well, think back to that and apply the same grit & innovation to overcome mentoring challenges now. This is the next stage in *your* learning. Your job is to hep this particular person thrive as much as possible, not write him off and wait for someone smarter. Mentoring is a skill and can be really frustrating when it's not working out, but it is so satisfying those happy times when you watch someone you've helped succeed and they feel good about themselves. I sure as hell wish I were better at it.
Here are few coaching 'tricks' that I've gotten from better managers than me:
1) Ask non-judgmental questions to help him identify what the problem is. This is classic advice though TBH I find it takes a lot of skill to use (which basically means I'm not good at it.)
2) This one though has worked really well for me: Next time he's stumped ask him to come up with five possible approaches to a problem, then check back with him the next day. He has to tell you all five even if he's sure #1 is the best. Often people come up with one plausible approach, think it's good because they came up with it, then jump down that road and get married to it even if it's a dead end. They'll defend it when you point out the flaws. When they had the ability to come up with much better approaches the whole time. When this works for someone it's really empowering for them.
3) The "pre-mortem." After he decides on an approach, ask him to imagine that he's looking back, that it failed, and then imagine why it failed. He has to come up with something, no matter how implausible. Like #2, the idea is to not get too seduced by your first idea that you stop thinking.
4) Remind him to draw on his own experience. If he proposes X to solve a problem, has he done something similar before? If not why not and why is this a good idea this time? If so what were the challenges? How long does X usually take and does that match his estimate this time?
The trick on all of these of course is you are not solving his problems or even telling him how to solve his own problems. You're trying to trick him to coming up with his own solutions, so if he succeeds he learns he doesn't need you.
My last comment is that I would never make a widget for him. You are not responsible for his widgets being on time; trying to make his widgets is just a way to cover up your failure in mentoring him (or his incompetence, however you want to look at it, but either way that is so not your job). Furthermore you taking over signals to him loud and clear that you think he's a failure and hopeless at this widget making thing. Even if you're not aware you are thinking that, even if he's stupid, trust me that he's getting that message when this happens. Let him take the heat if they don't work out.
posted by mark k at 7:35 PM on October 6, 2017
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What does this mean if not correcting his errors and teaching him the correct way to do things (or giving him the resources for him to learn)? Is he making the same errors over and over?
How do I start saying "try Google/read the documentation/fix your typos/here's an online cheat sheet" to younger team member in the most constructive possible way that he'll actually absorb?
I'm not clear - have you tried saying those things and he can't or won't absorb it? If you haven't tried, I think it's perfectly fine to tell him that in a professional, non-brusque tone. That's part of mentoring and teaching him best practices. Every "widget maker" I know does those things.
If he comes to you with an error I think it's more than fair to say "how have you tried to resolve it?" and if he says you're his first step, suggest the other things above. If he doesn't start taking the initiative, maybe it's time for a "mentoring status update" with the manager.
posted by AFABulous at 7:27 AM on October 5, 2017 [15 favorites]