Ah, time for another where should I move question! Farmer edition...
October 4, 2017 10:20 PM Subscribe
So, if you had a reasonably solid nest egg and wanted to move somewhere and start a small farm (and had the experience to do so), where would you move?
I've been reading all the "where should I move" threads, but our own little snowflakes are below the fold...
Mid-thirties, have one kid just turned 3. Would like to move before he starts school.
We are debt free, and have modest personal savings. Windfall/nest egg around the 300k mark.
Both have several years’ experience working on successful small farms and some misc related coursework. Would like to move into farming, either full or part time or with seasonal supplementation if need be.
We are very much starting a business - we're not trying to homestead and be self sufficient and that sort of thing.
Both have (non-ag) college degrees and day-job work experience (government, social work). We make okay pay and are pretty frugal (Sydney is *really* expensive).
Currently in Sydney. Some family in Sydney area that we aren’t close to and/or don’t see often. Making friends in Sydney is notoriously hard – we are tired, lonely, and want to move somewhere that is genuinely friendly. We have made friends easily in other places.
Have family we really like in two places in CA that we can’t do: the Bay Area ($$$) and Fres-NOPE. We have talked about moving somewhere with my Dad (retired), who would like to go somewhere in the PNW. Also have close friends outside Chicago who have a kid the same age. I don’t think my dad would leave the west coast (my siblings are there, and one if not both will be starting families soonish) but you never know. We would both love to see my siblings more and at this point almost anything is an improvement over a 14hrs and $2k+ on flights every time.
We can theoretically live anywhere in the US or Australia. My dad can NOT live in Australia (no, we can’t sponsor him, nothing, unfortunately).
Interested in cohousing (and either leasing land nearby or from the HOA – I know a couple people who do this). At a bare minimum would like to not isolate our only kid out on a farm in the boonies.
We like all the things all good snowflakes like: good coffee, NPR, farmer’s markets, libraries, good food of all sorts/ethnicities, food co-ops/Trader Jo’s, bicycles, good bakeries, camping etc.. Our degrees are in - get ready for it - fine art, and a double major in (Modern Chinese) history and English. The “homebody outdoorsy” description in a recent thread was pretty apt.
We are willing to be creative with regards to land access – we know people in all sorts of leasing situations (land trusts, urban/suburban yards, cohousing/HOA’s etc), as well as a few who own in more rural areas. We are also looking at farm incubator programs, at least for the first few years. We’ve been happy in a variety of places ranging from rural to pretty suburban.
Housing... no fixer-uppers. We're not good at it, and have heard horror stories from people trying to fix the house and start a farm at the same time. Current plan is to keep the nest egg intact via housing or investment and start the farm ourselves (slowly) with the benefit of hopefully having eased our living expenses.
Mid-thirties, have one kid just turned 3. Would like to move before he starts school.
We are debt free, and have modest personal savings. Windfall/nest egg around the 300k mark.
Both have several years’ experience working on successful small farms and some misc related coursework. Would like to move into farming, either full or part time or with seasonal supplementation if need be.
We are very much starting a business - we're not trying to homestead and be self sufficient and that sort of thing.
Both have (non-ag) college degrees and day-job work experience (government, social work). We make okay pay and are pretty frugal (Sydney is *really* expensive).
Currently in Sydney. Some family in Sydney area that we aren’t close to and/or don’t see often. Making friends in Sydney is notoriously hard – we are tired, lonely, and want to move somewhere that is genuinely friendly. We have made friends easily in other places.
Have family we really like in two places in CA that we can’t do: the Bay Area ($$$) and Fres-NOPE. We have talked about moving somewhere with my Dad (retired), who would like to go somewhere in the PNW. Also have close friends outside Chicago who have a kid the same age. I don’t think my dad would leave the west coast (my siblings are there, and one if not both will be starting families soonish) but you never know. We would both love to see my siblings more and at this point almost anything is an improvement over a 14hrs and $2k+ on flights every time.
We can theoretically live anywhere in the US or Australia. My dad can NOT live in Australia (no, we can’t sponsor him, nothing, unfortunately).
Interested in cohousing (and either leasing land nearby or from the HOA – I know a couple people who do this). At a bare minimum would like to not isolate our only kid out on a farm in the boonies.
We like all the things all good snowflakes like: good coffee, NPR, farmer’s markets, libraries, good food of all sorts/ethnicities, food co-ops/Trader Jo’s, bicycles, good bakeries, camping etc.. Our degrees are in - get ready for it - fine art, and a double major in (Modern Chinese) history and English. The “homebody outdoorsy” description in a recent thread was pretty apt.
We are willing to be creative with regards to land access – we know people in all sorts of leasing situations (land trusts, urban/suburban yards, cohousing/HOA’s etc), as well as a few who own in more rural areas. We are also looking at farm incubator programs, at least for the first few years. We’ve been happy in a variety of places ranging from rural to pretty suburban.
Housing... no fixer-uppers. We're not good at it, and have heard horror stories from people trying to fix the house and start a farm at the same time. Current plan is to keep the nest egg intact via housing or investment and start the farm ourselves (slowly) with the benefit of hopefully having eased our living expenses.
Best answer: If you look a bit north of Skagit, the Bellingham WA area is a nice small city with farming areas very close by.
I can't speak to the affordability of farm land there, but the culture of Bellingham maps well to what you mention. There's great coffee and a solid (but not year round) farmer's market, good restaurants, a really good food co-op with two locations. Excellent places to get outdoors all around. It also has a decent little airport with flights to Oakland.
The weather was better than what you might expect from coastal Washington - it doesn't rain there as much as Seattle, and the summers are great.
Good luck!
posted by mmc at 11:18 PM on October 4, 2017
I can't speak to the affordability of farm land there, but the culture of Bellingham maps well to what you mention. There's great coffee and a solid (but not year round) farmer's market, good restaurants, a really good food co-op with two locations. Excellent places to get outdoors all around. It also has a decent little airport with flights to Oakland.
The weather was better than what you might expect from coastal Washington - it doesn't rain there as much as Seattle, and the summers are great.
Good luck!
posted by mmc at 11:18 PM on October 4, 2017
Best answer: Sequim, Washington, on the north Olympic Peninsula, had a lot of small farms with roadside stands, farmers markets, etc. when I visited it last year, and a generally pleasant vibe. Nearby Port Angeles had a bit more of a bustling big-small town vibe, and Seattle is still close, as is the ferry (April - October) to Victoria where I live. I don't know anything about buying property in the area, but I thought I'd throw it out there as something to look into. We share similar weather though, and it's awesome, a micro-micro-climate in the rain shadow, where it's really common to have sunny t-shirt weather in the winter with black clouds and snow coming down on the surrounding mountains.
posted by mannequito at 12:01 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mannequito at 12:01 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
What are you planning on growing?
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 3:35 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 3:35 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Produce and flowers, maybe some fruit.
posted by jrobin276 at 4:06 AM on October 5, 2017
posted by jrobin276 at 4:06 AM on October 5, 2017
Living outside of Madison Wisconsin could tick all but one of your boxes. Good farm land, near lots of liberal npr loving folks, has cheap housing, fall back government jobs in the city, and near Chicago. But no PNW. Just putting out an option even though PNE is great.
posted by Kalmya at 5:04 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 5:04 AM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's a growing number of diverse, small, mostly-organic farms in Illinois, many taking advantage of the Chicago market to sell premium produce at farmers' markets and to restaurants. IOGA might be a place to start. (I don't know anything about flower farming, though, mostly just produce and grain!)
Farmland is expensive in Illinois, but not nearly as expensive as in California, and you don't have the water issues. It would be possible to live and farm in the far-flung Chicago exurbs, or in a smaller downstate city (Peoria, Bloomington/Normal, etc.) where you could live in town and farm out of town, or live on a farm close enough to be in town in 20 minutes.
There are a number of small family fruit farms in Michigan (again in a network of towns and cities usually large enough to support a small job market), and more agritourism than in Illinois. I'm not sure about produce or flowers there, but there's a smaller but reasonably robust farm-to-table market in Michigan so there must be at least some good produce farming.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:07 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Farmland is expensive in Illinois, but not nearly as expensive as in California, and you don't have the water issues. It would be possible to live and farm in the far-flung Chicago exurbs, or in a smaller downstate city (Peoria, Bloomington/Normal, etc.) where you could live in town and farm out of town, or live on a farm close enough to be in town in 20 minutes.
There are a number of small family fruit farms in Michigan (again in a network of towns and cities usually large enough to support a small job market), and more agritourism than in Illinois. I'm not sure about produce or flowers there, but there's a smaller but reasonably robust farm-to-table market in Michigan so there must be at least some good produce farming.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:07 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The Yakima Valley is on the other side of the Cascades and more of a Big Farming area, and farther from snowflakey amenities. But a lot of the family farms there are having trouble getting their kids to run the farm, so it might be easier to buy there, and in general I would guess land is cheaper because it's on the other side of the mountains. But also probably less likely to have cohousing/co-opy type setups.
It can be cheaper than land near Seattle or Portland, but good farmland (meaning, good soil with water rights) in the Yakima Valley is not going to be cheap, especially now that the wine industry there is taking off. $300,000 will get you a ranchette big enough for hobby farming, but not improved acreage of the size needed to earn a sustainable income in most places. Leasing/renting land might make a lot more sense in your situation if land prices prohibit buying what you would need.
Based on the amenities you want and your preference to ease your way into agriculture, I think you should pick the place you want to live and then look for creative options once you are there. Places that skew more hippy (eg Eugene) are going to have both the amenities and a greater variety of cohousing etc than more conservative places.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:56 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
It can be cheaper than land near Seattle or Portland, but good farmland (meaning, good soil with water rights) in the Yakima Valley is not going to be cheap, especially now that the wine industry there is taking off. $300,000 will get you a ranchette big enough for hobby farming, but not improved acreage of the size needed to earn a sustainable income in most places. Leasing/renting land might make a lot more sense in your situation if land prices prohibit buying what you would need.
Based on the amenities you want and your preference to ease your way into agriculture, I think you should pick the place you want to live and then look for creative options once you are there. Places that skew more hippy (eg Eugene) are going to have both the amenities and a greater variety of cohousing etc than more conservative places.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:56 AM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I was thinking somewhere in the fertile valleys between Eugene and Portland. Lots of food/wine culture, great growing conditions, and you get to choose how expensive it is (basically, closer to Portland = more$). Being an hour or so from the spectacular Oregon coast is gravy.
posted by carterk at 6:10 AM on October 5, 2017
posted by carterk at 6:10 AM on October 5, 2017
I grew up in Davis, California and there is a very strong small-farm presence between Davis and the Coast Range foothills to the west, as well as a long-established Farmers' Market culture in Davis. I don't know what the land costs are like, but the growing conditions are excellent and I'd guess that the climatic conditions are more like what you'd be used to in Australia (hot dry summer, cool wet winter, rare freezes -- you can grow oranges in some places but not others because of microclimate effects).
Since you mention the Pacific Northwest, let me recommend the book The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon, about soil mineral profiles and their effect on the produce. The author spent a few years homestead-farming in the Pacific Northwest, as well as several other places.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:39 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Since you mention the Pacific Northwest, let me recommend the book The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon, about soil mineral profiles and their effect on the produce. The author spent a few years homestead-farming in the Pacific Northwest, as well as several other places.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:39 AM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
At a bare minimum would like to not isolate our only kid out on a farm in the boonies.
This is fairly hard to do these days. Most farms are within driving distance of a city. You do sometimes have to adjust your definition of close, but 30 miles in Iowa is not the same as 30 blocks in New York (I know which I'd rather have to transverse in a car).
Farms are also far from the worst place to grow up.
Even in the boonies it shouldn't be too difficult to make sure your child gets socialization.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:08 AM on October 5, 2017
This is fairly hard to do these days. Most farms are within driving distance of a city. You do sometimes have to adjust your definition of close, but 30 miles in Iowa is not the same as 30 blocks in New York (I know which I'd rather have to transverse in a car).
Farms are also far from the worst place to grow up.
Even in the boonies it shouldn't be too difficult to make sure your child gets socialization.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:08 AM on October 5, 2017
Ojai, California!
The Hudson River Vally in New York, just above NYC, might be idyllic!!
That said, I'm going to warn you as someone who stupidly moved back to the US from elsewhere. And I have a 6 year old. When I say this was a mistake and I fear for my son's future and our social, economic and environmental safety here, please take this into your calculations.
California, where I am, has a large economy and we are mostly insulated, but not entirely. I'm fine traveling to Ojai from LA, but I used to drive out into the desert for rock hounding and star gazing and I suddenly felt like that was dangerous a few years back. Now we all know about meth and opiod epidemics. More rural areas are/were not doing well economically under previous administrations and addiction has now filled the void and "soothes" those populations. Places 2 hrs away I once felt safe exploring by myself, I won't visit even with my husband as a buffer.
I have friends that are actual farmers places like Bakersfield, the drug epidemic is very very bad.
Outside of California... Flint Michigan STILL has undrinkable water it would take roughly $110 Million to fix their system. Meanwhile, $600 Billion was just approved for the military, the EPA head meets with energy companies daily in a new $25k soundproof booth so he can discuss spoiling and selling off public resources and public lands in private. We'll leave the Education Department out of this since you likely already know. The egregious lack of staffing in other departments like HHS and the State Department are hurting the US domestically and abroad. The Justice Department is doing just fine, and federal courts are being stacked with judges who believe things you probably don't agree with.
Back to California...
I live in what's a nice neighborhood in LA with high home prices and high rents, yet there's a stability challenged guy sleeping in a tent outside where I live. He's very respectful and looks like he has a job, so nobody complains. Every night he sets up on the grass around dusk, every morning he packs up and leaves around 8am. There are tent cities and homeless all over LA now. There is not a major street from Pasadena to Santa Monica that doesn't have large and visible encampments. Some are more permanent, some go up overnight and are taken down each morning. I started noticing an unbelievable proliferation of people living in their cars about four years ago.
California has what? one of the top 5 economies in the world? I assume we're doing better than most of the US, but I am horrified by the changes over the last 15 years.
In short, you should think of a more stable country if you can think of one. Our government was broken and corrupt long before the current administration, but now we're in that story arc of the Sopranos where Tony and his crew swoop in like locusts and strip Jason Patric's sports store of all assets. The US is the sports store.
I'm encouraged overall because I think citizens here are waking up and we might regain control of our tax money and economic progress, but if I had $300k and a 3 year old, this would not be my choice.
Will New Zealand take you?
(My fear is you will invest, then some avoidable environmental catastrophe will compromise your farm. There are no real rules here right now and your money and efforts are best invested elsewhere. I'm old and remember when all of this was not "normal." Don't join the fight here if you don't have to.)
posted by jbenben at 7:24 AM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
The Hudson River Vally in New York, just above NYC, might be idyllic!!
That said, I'm going to warn you as someone who stupidly moved back to the US from elsewhere. And I have a 6 year old. When I say this was a mistake and I fear for my son's future and our social, economic and environmental safety here, please take this into your calculations.
California, where I am, has a large economy and we are mostly insulated, but not entirely. I'm fine traveling to Ojai from LA, but I used to drive out into the desert for rock hounding and star gazing and I suddenly felt like that was dangerous a few years back. Now we all know about meth and opiod epidemics. More rural areas are/were not doing well economically under previous administrations and addiction has now filled the void and "soothes" those populations. Places 2 hrs away I once felt safe exploring by myself, I won't visit even with my husband as a buffer.
I have friends that are actual farmers places like Bakersfield, the drug epidemic is very very bad.
Outside of California... Flint Michigan STILL has undrinkable water it would take roughly $110 Million to fix their system. Meanwhile, $600 Billion was just approved for the military, the EPA head meets with energy companies daily in a new $25k soundproof booth so he can discuss spoiling and selling off public resources and public lands in private. We'll leave the Education Department out of this since you likely already know. The egregious lack of staffing in other departments like HHS and the State Department are hurting the US domestically and abroad. The Justice Department is doing just fine, and federal courts are being stacked with judges who believe things you probably don't agree with.
Back to California...
I live in what's a nice neighborhood in LA with high home prices and high rents, yet there's a stability challenged guy sleeping in a tent outside where I live. He's very respectful and looks like he has a job, so nobody complains. Every night he sets up on the grass around dusk, every morning he packs up and leaves around 8am. There are tent cities and homeless all over LA now. There is not a major street from Pasadena to Santa Monica that doesn't have large and visible encampments. Some are more permanent, some go up overnight and are taken down each morning. I started noticing an unbelievable proliferation of people living in their cars about four years ago.
California has what? one of the top 5 economies in the world? I assume we're doing better than most of the US, but I am horrified by the changes over the last 15 years.
In short, you should think of a more stable country if you can think of one. Our government was broken and corrupt long before the current administration, but now we're in that story arc of the Sopranos where Tony and his crew swoop in like locusts and strip Jason Patric's sports store of all assets. The US is the sports store.
I'm encouraged overall because I think citizens here are waking up and we might regain control of our tax money and economic progress, but if I had $300k and a 3 year old, this would not be my choice.
Will New Zealand take you?
(My fear is you will invest, then some avoidable environmental catastrophe will compromise your farm. There are no real rules here right now and your money and efforts are best invested elsewhere. I'm old and remember when all of this was not "normal." Don't join the fight here if you don't have to.)
posted by jbenben at 7:24 AM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
East of the Mississippi River you have abundant water and many metropolitan areas large enough to support robust farmers' markets. Land is generally not cheaper in the grain belt, particularly in Illinois, but both northern and southern Illinois have pretty active niche/organic farming communities.
If you are considering the Midwest or Midsouth/Southeast, expect that your neighbors will be mostly a mix of religious conservatives or Southern Democrats. You may also encounter a libertarian or two. The further you get from an urban center or large university, the fewer progressive democrats you are likely to encounter. By and large (despite what network television would like people to believe) these folks are generally pretty darn tolerant and respectful of those with different beliefs if that same respect is returned. When you live in the countryside and the sheriff/ambulance/grocery store/tractor dealer is 30+ minutes away, being the kind of person who is willing to lend a hard, or a part, or a cup of sugar matters a whole lot more than who you vote for. I say this because if shared political beliefs are important to you, or if you are uncomfortable among those who may think and act more conservatively, you'll probably be more at home in the Pacific NW or California than in rural Illinois or Arkansas.
At a bare minimum would like to not isolate our only kid out on a farm in the boonies.
I suspect you'll find this isn't much of an issue. Many of my neighbors homeschool their children; there are so many homeschool parents in fact, that they organize regular group field trips of 40+ kids, meet three times weekly for a kind of old-fashioned collective education (one father teaches woodworking, another mother teaches physical education, another parent teaches Greek history and Latin - yes, Latin!). If you lived near me, even if your child went to public school, they'd have plenty of "neighborhood" kids to play with who would include them in the local social scene. You can also consider looking for a church with an active youth group which, in most of rural America, functions more as a social club than a religious organization. If you're not a religious person, look for a Society of Friends (Quaker) meetinghouse or Unitarian fellowship; these are often pretty secular, accepting groups.
good coffee, NPR, farmer’s markets, libraries, good food of all sorts/ethnicities, food co-ops/Trader Jo’s, bicycles, good bakeries, camping etc
Amazon Prime has made rural isolation pretty comfortable. With a few clicks you can have access to good coffee and any international pantry items that you adore. You'll find it a bit tougher to pickup NPR over terrestrial radio if you live more than an hour out of a major city, but streaming digital radio and podcasts work just as well. East of the Mississippi, you should have access to a small town library within a 30 minute drive at the most, and that library is likely to belong to an interlibrary system with a large catalog. Country roads are wonderful for biking (in fact only 5 minutes from my farm is a 100 mile stretch of reclaimed railroad that was converted to a lovely, family-friendly bike trail). State parks and even national forests are scattered all over the Eastern US so camping, hiking, spelunking, rock climbing, kayaking, canoeing, etc. can be quite close if you'd like them to be. If you want to be close to a food co-op (that isn't an Azure or UNFI drop) look to locate your farm close to a large university or metro area.
One word of advice: when evaluating potential properties, make sure to check out available cellular and internet options. It is not unusual for your only internet access to be via dial-up or satellite (which is data-capped, intermittent in bad weather and generally terrible). Some cell carriers provide 4g LTE hotspot coverage, but this can be quite expensive if you want to watch any Netflix or other streaming video services. To give you an idea of what it can be like: I have 30 acres within a 2-hour's drive of St. Louis, Mo & Nashville, Tn. For the last three years, I've paid between $250 and $500 a month for 20-40Gb of 4G LTE internet. (I run an internet software company in addition to our organic farm, so web, unfortunately is a required expense.)
posted by muirne81 at 7:45 AM on October 5, 2017
If you are considering the Midwest or Midsouth/Southeast, expect that your neighbors will be mostly a mix of religious conservatives or Southern Democrats. You may also encounter a libertarian or two. The further you get from an urban center or large university, the fewer progressive democrats you are likely to encounter. By and large (despite what network television would like people to believe) these folks are generally pretty darn tolerant and respectful of those with different beliefs if that same respect is returned. When you live in the countryside and the sheriff/ambulance/grocery store/tractor dealer is 30+ minutes away, being the kind of person who is willing to lend a hard, or a part, or a cup of sugar matters a whole lot more than who you vote for. I say this because if shared political beliefs are important to you, or if you are uncomfortable among those who may think and act more conservatively, you'll probably be more at home in the Pacific NW or California than in rural Illinois or Arkansas.
At a bare minimum would like to not isolate our only kid out on a farm in the boonies.
I suspect you'll find this isn't much of an issue. Many of my neighbors homeschool their children; there are so many homeschool parents in fact, that they organize regular group field trips of 40+ kids, meet three times weekly for a kind of old-fashioned collective education (one father teaches woodworking, another mother teaches physical education, another parent teaches Greek history and Latin - yes, Latin!). If you lived near me, even if your child went to public school, they'd have plenty of "neighborhood" kids to play with who would include them in the local social scene. You can also consider looking for a church with an active youth group which, in most of rural America, functions more as a social club than a religious organization. If you're not a religious person, look for a Society of Friends (Quaker) meetinghouse or Unitarian fellowship; these are often pretty secular, accepting groups.
good coffee, NPR, farmer’s markets, libraries, good food of all sorts/ethnicities, food co-ops/Trader Jo’s, bicycles, good bakeries, camping etc
Amazon Prime has made rural isolation pretty comfortable. With a few clicks you can have access to good coffee and any international pantry items that you adore. You'll find it a bit tougher to pickup NPR over terrestrial radio if you live more than an hour out of a major city, but streaming digital radio and podcasts work just as well. East of the Mississippi, you should have access to a small town library within a 30 minute drive at the most, and that library is likely to belong to an interlibrary system with a large catalog. Country roads are wonderful for biking (in fact only 5 minutes from my farm is a 100 mile stretch of reclaimed railroad that was converted to a lovely, family-friendly bike trail). State parks and even national forests are scattered all over the Eastern US so camping, hiking, spelunking, rock climbing, kayaking, canoeing, etc. can be quite close if you'd like them to be. If you want to be close to a food co-op (that isn't an Azure or UNFI drop) look to locate your farm close to a large university or metro area.
One word of advice: when evaluating potential properties, make sure to check out available cellular and internet options. It is not unusual for your only internet access to be via dial-up or satellite (which is data-capped, intermittent in bad weather and generally terrible). Some cell carriers provide 4g LTE hotspot coverage, but this can be quite expensive if you want to watch any Netflix or other streaming video services. To give you an idea of what it can be like: I have 30 acres within a 2-hour's drive of St. Louis, Mo & Nashville, Tn. For the last three years, I've paid between $250 and $500 a month for 20-40Gb of 4G LTE internet. (I run an internet software company in addition to our organic farm, so web, unfortunately is a required expense.)
posted by muirne81 at 7:45 AM on October 5, 2017
I feel like you have the cart before the horse here.
I come from a farm family, a good friend has been running what I will call a "boutique" farm something like you are thinking.
I am in the North.
First, your $300k budget probably won't buy you a home and land. You could maybe get one or the other.
If you don't have documented income, you won't qualify for a mortgage, and there is no way to document the income of a farm that hasn't started up yet. If you purchase an existing farm, you will need to provide a substantial downpayment.
My uncle will soon be selling his 100 acre farm about an hour and a half from the metro. He will get about $1 million. I laughed when you said that you can afford plane tickets from AUS to US; this 100 acre farm has never, and will never, create a lifestyle where my uncle could imagine purchasing anything that expensive. Farmers have to fix their own stuff because they can't afford to pay anyone to fix it. The teachers in town, on teacher salaries, were always the rich people in my town of farmers. The wealth in farming is always the ownership of the land, not the harvest of the crops. Living as a farmer is a physically hard grind one toenail out of poverty. You will likely qualify for all kinds of government assistance programs, from SNAP to CRP.
My friend's boutique farm does not pay the mortgage, it does not pay the health insurance. Her partner works a full time job for that. She has very aggressively marketed the farm and the products, and is a very experienced farmer. She grew up on that farm, and then had a very successful career in international sales and marketing, and took on her parent's farm. The place is falling apart in all of the ways an old family farm is falling apart. I worry about the day they will need to put an incredibly expensive roof on the old barn. It will eat years of profits.
As far as flowers, produce, and fruits, they are delicate and seasonal crops. Of course the lowest prices will come at the times of most abundance. You will need to be close to a metro area to market the crops, or at least transport them freshly, and the closer you are to a metro, the more expensive the land. Closer to the metro farmland prices are driven up by developers buying the land to build homes.
In my area, the vast majority of the produce farmers at the farmers markets are immigrants because very few white people have the knowledge, strength, and work ethic to produce food for such a small financial return. If your hours of work pay more than minimum wage, I would be very surprised. And like all farm families, you will need that labor help from your children. My elementary school was full of rough-handed farm kids that slept good at night from the burden of their chores in the milk parlor or bailing hay. Don't expect your kid to have time for sports or homework, or you to have time for those things, your crops and animals won't wait.
What does your business plan look like? If you say this is to be a business you definitely need a business plan. With these crops, how will you survive the winters financially? Will you try to hothouse the flowers? What does pricing look like in your target area? In my area big mixed bouquets are $7 each. How many bouquets will you need to sell each week? How many flowers is that? How many plants to produce that many flowers? How much to buy the plants, and where are you sourcing the plants? How are you funding the seed/plant cost each spring (hint: small town banks give farmers springtime seed loans, due at harvest.) How many bouquets are the existing vendors selling per week? How will you take the marketshare from the existing vendors? What if you don't capture the marketshare and you end up with acres of rotting flowers? What flowers have what seasons, so you can maximize your growing year? Insurance exists for traditional crops, how about your kind of crop? What happens if you get hail or tornadoes? Is this anywhere near financially possible?
My other uncle has a pretty good deal worked out to scratch his farming itch. He does custom harvest work for some of the more difficult crops. He owns the equipment ($$$$$ - this will eat your $300k so fast -- a big combine is easily over a million bucks) and contracts out to harvest for other farmers. He keeps 10-20 acres of his own, but he and his wife both have full time jobs, as this would never support them. This time of year the harvest will keep farmers in their tractors for as many hours as they can stay awake. I got an email from a farmer client yesterday, he will literally be in his combine until Monday, and he will have time to meet me then. Well, as long as the rain doesn't derail his plans.
If you are starting a business, you need to start with a business plan.
What is your crop/livestock? Do you know, REALLY KNOW, how to raise that in the US? Each area of the US will have different crops that grow better and different challenges for each crop.
What is the demand for the crop? What is the price for the crop? How much will your land cost and how much will the crop reasonably bring in, and how much do you need to live on to make ends meet? How can you balance finding a farm with enough land that is close enough to distribution channels that is also close to a place for one of the spouses to have a health-insurance job? Can your crop be insured? If not how much are you keeping in the bank to keep yourself alive?
Understand traditional farmers in the Midwest have undergone mass corporate consolidation in the last 20 years. My uncles 100 acre farm is a tiny thing, it will be purchased by corporate farmers with a thousand or more acres, because no one can make money on just 100 acres anymore. The traditional 100 head of dairy farm is gone, that labor-intensive venture is too hard to make money with at that size. The dairy is mostly now corporate with 300 or more head. Your kid will be really irritated milking 300 head before school, my elementary school buddies milked 80 or so and that will take a couple hours each morning and evening. Of course automation helps, but I can't see your small budget getting you a dairy setup that made any economic sense.
As far as the landshare things you mention -- hmmm. I track land use and sales closely here, and while field crop land is rented out frequently here, I haven't heard of the usages you mention here. HOA? Like, for a townhome? We just don't have that stuff. And if you rent land, obviously you need to have the seed and the equipment....
Farming is a very expensive startup. If you aren't inheriting land, I can't see this working where you actually make any money. You should try to do the business plan with different crops and distribution plans in different parts of the nation, but .... without the land you are starting off many hundreds of thousands in the hole. If this were an easy and lucrative thing, many people would do it. It is neither.
posted by littlewater at 8:08 AM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
I come from a farm family, a good friend has been running what I will call a "boutique" farm something like you are thinking.
I am in the North.
First, your $300k budget probably won't buy you a home and land. You could maybe get one or the other.
If you don't have documented income, you won't qualify for a mortgage, and there is no way to document the income of a farm that hasn't started up yet. If you purchase an existing farm, you will need to provide a substantial downpayment.
My uncle will soon be selling his 100 acre farm about an hour and a half from the metro. He will get about $1 million. I laughed when you said that you can afford plane tickets from AUS to US; this 100 acre farm has never, and will never, create a lifestyle where my uncle could imagine purchasing anything that expensive. Farmers have to fix their own stuff because they can't afford to pay anyone to fix it. The teachers in town, on teacher salaries, were always the rich people in my town of farmers. The wealth in farming is always the ownership of the land, not the harvest of the crops. Living as a farmer is a physically hard grind one toenail out of poverty. You will likely qualify for all kinds of government assistance programs, from SNAP to CRP.
My friend's boutique farm does not pay the mortgage, it does not pay the health insurance. Her partner works a full time job for that. She has very aggressively marketed the farm and the products, and is a very experienced farmer. She grew up on that farm, and then had a very successful career in international sales and marketing, and took on her parent's farm. The place is falling apart in all of the ways an old family farm is falling apart. I worry about the day they will need to put an incredibly expensive roof on the old barn. It will eat years of profits.
As far as flowers, produce, and fruits, they are delicate and seasonal crops. Of course the lowest prices will come at the times of most abundance. You will need to be close to a metro area to market the crops, or at least transport them freshly, and the closer you are to a metro, the more expensive the land. Closer to the metro farmland prices are driven up by developers buying the land to build homes.
In my area, the vast majority of the produce farmers at the farmers markets are immigrants because very few white people have the knowledge, strength, and work ethic to produce food for such a small financial return. If your hours of work pay more than minimum wage, I would be very surprised. And like all farm families, you will need that labor help from your children. My elementary school was full of rough-handed farm kids that slept good at night from the burden of their chores in the milk parlor or bailing hay. Don't expect your kid to have time for sports or homework, or you to have time for those things, your crops and animals won't wait.
What does your business plan look like? If you say this is to be a business you definitely need a business plan. With these crops, how will you survive the winters financially? Will you try to hothouse the flowers? What does pricing look like in your target area? In my area big mixed bouquets are $7 each. How many bouquets will you need to sell each week? How many flowers is that? How many plants to produce that many flowers? How much to buy the plants, and where are you sourcing the plants? How are you funding the seed/plant cost each spring (hint: small town banks give farmers springtime seed loans, due at harvest.) How many bouquets are the existing vendors selling per week? How will you take the marketshare from the existing vendors? What if you don't capture the marketshare and you end up with acres of rotting flowers? What flowers have what seasons, so you can maximize your growing year? Insurance exists for traditional crops, how about your kind of crop? What happens if you get hail or tornadoes? Is this anywhere near financially possible?
My other uncle has a pretty good deal worked out to scratch his farming itch. He does custom harvest work for some of the more difficult crops. He owns the equipment ($$$$$ - this will eat your $300k so fast -- a big combine is easily over a million bucks) and contracts out to harvest for other farmers. He keeps 10-20 acres of his own, but he and his wife both have full time jobs, as this would never support them. This time of year the harvest will keep farmers in their tractors for as many hours as they can stay awake. I got an email from a farmer client yesterday, he will literally be in his combine until Monday, and he will have time to meet me then. Well, as long as the rain doesn't derail his plans.
If you are starting a business, you need to start with a business plan.
What is your crop/livestock? Do you know, REALLY KNOW, how to raise that in the US? Each area of the US will have different crops that grow better and different challenges for each crop.
What is the demand for the crop? What is the price for the crop? How much will your land cost and how much will the crop reasonably bring in, and how much do you need to live on to make ends meet? How can you balance finding a farm with enough land that is close enough to distribution channels that is also close to a place for one of the spouses to have a health-insurance job? Can your crop be insured? If not how much are you keeping in the bank to keep yourself alive?
Understand traditional farmers in the Midwest have undergone mass corporate consolidation in the last 20 years. My uncles 100 acre farm is a tiny thing, it will be purchased by corporate farmers with a thousand or more acres, because no one can make money on just 100 acres anymore. The traditional 100 head of dairy farm is gone, that labor-intensive venture is too hard to make money with at that size. The dairy is mostly now corporate with 300 or more head. Your kid will be really irritated milking 300 head before school, my elementary school buddies milked 80 or so and that will take a couple hours each morning and evening. Of course automation helps, but I can't see your small budget getting you a dairy setup that made any economic sense.
As far as the landshare things you mention -- hmmm. I track land use and sales closely here, and while field crop land is rented out frequently here, I haven't heard of the usages you mention here. HOA? Like, for a townhome? We just don't have that stuff. And if you rent land, obviously you need to have the seed and the equipment....
Farming is a very expensive startup. If you aren't inheriting land, I can't see this working where you actually make any money. You should try to do the business plan with different crops and distribution plans in different parts of the nation, but .... without the land you are starting off many hundreds of thousands in the hole. If this were an easy and lucrative thing, many people would do it. It is neither.
posted by littlewater at 8:08 AM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Everything littlewater said. I was going to offer up that part of my small business operates at Farmers Markets in CA and we know lots of farmers and ranchers I was willing to try and put you in touch with, but honestly, littlewater covered it.
posted by jbenben at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2017
posted by jbenben at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2017
Best answer: Since no one has focused on the co-housing aspect yet, I'll jump in. I live in a co-housing community in Peterborough, New Hampshire (Nubanusit Neighborhood & Farm), that has a farm as part of our property. That was one of the big draws for us to move here, as most co-housing is more strictly residential. There is another great one in eastern Vermont (Cobb Hill), and you may find more if you search http://cohousing.org/directory.
At present we have a produce, flowers, and eggs CSA on our land that is operated by a local nonprofit. The lead farmer is one of the residents, and he has a couple of hired folks for the growing season. Neighbors do other farming activities according to their interests, including keeping various livestock. Only the lead farmer makes his living from the farm; everyone else has day jobs or is retired.
Like you, we had contemplated becoming full-time farmers, and gave a lot of thought to all of the options before finally taking the leap last year. We're so happy with the choice we made. Moving to co-housing has proved an immeasurable improvement in our quality of life. For our family, living on a farm with 35 close neighbors and a bustling town within walking distance is the best possible arrangement, especially for raising kids.
Peterborough is a bright blue pocket in a purple state, with vibrant arts happenings and all the snowflakes you require. Overall, the cost of living is low compared to the Boston 'burbs where we came from. Both NH and Vermont are still pretty excited about local food, and people here seem pretty supportive of all kinds of small scale agriculture. (The oldest CSA in the US was established in Wilton, just down the road, in 1985.)
Drop me a MeMail if you'd like to know more about Nubi. We've got a couple of houses for sale and would welcome more families with an interest in farming.
posted by libraryhead at 9:44 AM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
At present we have a produce, flowers, and eggs CSA on our land that is operated by a local nonprofit. The lead farmer is one of the residents, and he has a couple of hired folks for the growing season. Neighbors do other farming activities according to their interests, including keeping various livestock. Only the lead farmer makes his living from the farm; everyone else has day jobs or is retired.
Like you, we had contemplated becoming full-time farmers, and gave a lot of thought to all of the options before finally taking the leap last year. We're so happy with the choice we made. Moving to co-housing has proved an immeasurable improvement in our quality of life. For our family, living on a farm with 35 close neighbors and a bustling town within walking distance is the best possible arrangement, especially for raising kids.
Peterborough is a bright blue pocket in a purple state, with vibrant arts happenings and all the snowflakes you require. Overall, the cost of living is low compared to the Boston 'burbs where we came from. Both NH and Vermont are still pretty excited about local food, and people here seem pretty supportive of all kinds of small scale agriculture. (The oldest CSA in the US was established in Wilton, just down the road, in 1985.)
Drop me a MeMail if you'd like to know more about Nubi. We've got a couple of houses for sale and would welcome more families with an interest in farming.
posted by libraryhead at 9:44 AM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone with specific suggestions - several of the locations mentioned are places we've actually worked.
If you can't just answer the question please move along.
posted by jrobin276 at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2017
If you can't just answer the question please move along.
posted by jrobin276 at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2017
Response by poster: Eyebrows McGee and Kalyma, I only didn't mark yours a best answer because I am *super* familiar with small farms in that area! Peoria has been suggested in a couple places, we might check it out.
posted by jrobin276 at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2017
posted by jrobin276 at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2017
Hyperspecifically, this functional for-profit farm is for sale in Olympia and it seems like the kind of place where they might take kindly to a fellow Internet being the purchaser.
posted by peppercorn at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by peppercorn at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Haha, peppercorn that's sort of exactly what we're looking for!
posted by jrobin276 at 3:00 PM on October 5, 2017
posted by jrobin276 at 3:00 PM on October 5, 2017
I would check out some of Justin Rhodes videos from the Great American Farm tour, he is shooting videos of small farms in every state (and canada), this is a nice example.
posted by 445supermag at 3:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 445supermag at 3:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's a reason places like Eureka Springs and Fayetteville in Arkansas are full of liberals and hippies despite the reputation of the state. Northern Arkansas was one of many places where "back to the land" types migrated in the 70s, for precisely the same reason it makes sense for something like this today: Land is cheap. And thanks to your forebears and general growth, there are even good schools in the area. (Plus, one of the electric coops is deploying fiber, so excellent internet will be available at any of their customer's homes/businesses by 2018 or so, given the last schedule I saw)
I use that specific area as an example only because I'm personally familiar with it. There are many other places like it across the country, in nearly every state.
posted by wierdo at 3:40 PM on October 5, 2017
I use that specific area as an example only because I'm personally familiar with it. There are many other places like it across the country, in nearly every state.
posted by wierdo at 3:40 PM on October 5, 2017
Response by poster: There are many other places like it across the country, in nearly every state.
This is part of the problem! I've marked it resolved and will bow out now, but anyone else who has a really specific suggestion please do comment I am still following and still sort of looking for ideas! If anyone has any comments on Duluth, upper Michigan, or Ithaca I'd love to hear it.
posted by jrobin276 at 4:24 PM on October 5, 2017
This is part of the problem! I've marked it resolved and will bow out now, but anyone else who has a really specific suggestion please do comment I am still following and still sort of looking for ideas! If anyone has any comments on Duluth, upper Michigan, or Ithaca I'd love to hear it.
posted by jrobin276 at 4:24 PM on October 5, 2017
To answer your specific question about Michigan: In the last few years, the legislature has been squeezing their small/organic/heritage farmers with more and more restrictions. Google "Michigan farm laws pigs" for a taste. Their short growing season, especially in the UP, can make some crops quite difficult to raise. Missouri has fairly farmer-friendly laws. Illinois just broadened their farmers market/home kitchen laws so it's easier to sell some value-added product.
posted by muirne81 at 8:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by muirne81 at 8:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
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The Yakima Valley is on the other side of the Cascades and more of a Big Farming area, and farther from snowflakey amenities. But a lot of the family farms there are having trouble getting their kids to run the farm, so it might be easier to buy there, and in general I would guess land is cheaper because it's on the other side of the mountains. But also probably less likely to have cohousing/co-opy type setups.
Also, urban farming is really popular in the PNW. I know a woman who ran a CSA growing things in Seattle backyards (hers and a few she leased). Seattle real estate is probably now too expensive to make that realistic anymore, but you could look into Olympia, places on the north side of the Olympic Peninsula (in the rain shadow), Tacoma (all the artists are moving there) and Portland.
posted by lunasol at 11:07 PM on October 4, 2017 [4 favorites]