Can venmo turn over someones clients to the authorities ?

September 20, 2017 1:10 AM

Lets say I have a friend who walks dogs and I pay him for walking my dog by way of Venmo. Lets say, hypothetically, this dog walker also sells pot to other people (which is illegal in the state I live, and I understand is against venmo's TOS - but I imagine this could happen). If my dog walker accepts money for pot through Venmo and then is arrested, could the authorities look into his Venmo account and see all the people that have paid him money? Could I be under suspicion for buying drugs because I have paid this person for his dog walking services? Is there any legal consequence for using Venmo with people who might not be following the Venmo rules?
posted by anonymous to Law & Government (14 answers total)

See their privacy policy, where they state:

We may share your personal information with:
...
* Law enforcement, government officials, or other third parties if PayPal is compelled to do so by a subpoena, court order or similar legal procedure, when it is necessary to do so to comply with law, or where the disclosure of personal information is reasonably necessary to prevent physical harm or financial loss, to report suspected illegal activity, or to investigate violations of the Venmo User Agreement, or as otherwise required by law.

So yes, the short form is they'll very happily turn over whatever they like if they think there's criminal activity, presumably even if the cops don't bother getting a warrant and just ask for it.
posted by russm at 1:41 AM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]

The police's interest is going to be in the other direction - who the guy buys large quantities from, not who is buying quarter ounces from him - unless you live in a jurisdiction with unbelievably petty and dumb cops and prosecutors.
posted by thelonius at 3:51 AM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]

And also, if you're not actually buying pot, what do you have to worry about?
posted by ryanbryan at 3:52 AM on September 20, 2017

And also, if you're not actually buying pot, what do you have to worry about?

Harassment, getting questioned, having to explain getting questioned to people who see you getting questioned, presumed guilt, surprise visits from law enforcement at home or at work, maybe getting shot for not being a Real American™. I can think of lots of reasons not to be on a list of names on a cop's desk.
posted by phunniemee at 4:29 AM on September 20, 2017 [71 favorites]

...unless you live in a jurisdiction with unbelievably petty and dumb cops and prosecutors.

So you mean just about everywhere in the US where weed is not legal?
posted by kuanes at 4:54 AM on September 20, 2017 [22 favorites]

And also, if you're not actually buying pot, what do you have to worry about?

How white and middle-class or above are you? If you tick the boxes of "college educated, professional, white" the cops aren't going to bother with you. If you're a POC and working class, OTOH, the cops will come after you for no cause at all.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:27 AM on September 20, 2017 [17 favorites]

Mod note: Folks, let's please keep this more narrowly focused on answering the question and move away from a general discussion about law enforcement and social conditions, etc. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:43 AM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]

Do you have any kind of paper trail documenting your dog-walker's work for you? If he sends you photos of your dog out on walks for example, or texts you in a way that's obviously about your dog, or if you have emails about his dog-walking - you probably won't ever need to use them, but filing that stuff somewhere might give you some piece of mind.

You could also just pay cash.
posted by bunderful at 5:48 AM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah, just pay cash. Using electronic payment mediated by a company that is perfectly happy to turn over their records to law enforcement seems like a totally unnecessary risk. I would say that the risk of something unpleasant happening to you because you're connected to a drug dealer via your Venmo dog-walking payments is small, but definitely not nonexistent. So just pay cash and be done with it.

Also, the fact that this person uses Venmo to take payments for drugs makes me think that they're probably pretty careless and the likelihood of them eventually getting caught is pretty high.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:09 AM on September 20, 2017 [6 favorites]

Using electronic payment mediated by a company that is perfectly happy to turn over their records to law enforcement seems like a totally unnecessary risk.

This is literally every possible electronic payments provider. In fact, it is basically any business that isn't a doctor or lawyer, because essentially everyone complies with subpoenas.

I think the risk of being hassled approaches zero, because it would require the police to subpoena Venmo in order to try to prosecute drug buyers and even if they did do so all they would have proof of is that people paid a drug dealer money, which is a long way from proving that the crime occurred. The effort it would require simply wouldn't yield the kind of results they'd need to bother with it.
posted by Lame_username at 10:12 AM on September 20, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'd like to know who is paying for illegal drugs via an app that tracks your real name, bank account, etc. anyway. I guess I am that old, but I can't imagine back when I wasn't that old being that dumb. Anyway, you're probably fine, but if I were in your situation I might find another dog walker.
posted by clone boulevard at 10:24 AM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]

[Folks, let's please keep this more narrowly focused on answering the question and move away from a general discussion about law enforcement and social conditions, etc. Thanks.]

Taz, this is a terrible response. Anonymous hasn't provided their location, race, sex, class or any remotely identifying characteristics but has asked "Could I be under suspicion for buying drugs because I have paid this person for his dog walking services? Is there any legal consequence for using Venmo with people who might not be following the Venmo rules?"

Anonymous, the answer will absolutely relate to race and class. If you are a middle/upper-middle class suburban white lady, you are probably fine. If you are a POC you might still be fine (I would say are probably fine) but the risk is greater and the possible consequences are also potentially much higher (worse case scenario being shot by the police during a routine inquiry and then having "evidence" placed on your body.) That's obviously not the most likely scenario but anyone in 21st century America who doesn't think this is a possible outcome when interacting with the police for any reason hasn't been paying enough attention (charitable understatement.) POC get killed in the U.S. for having a broken tail light, or jay walking, or walking down the down the street, or up a stairwell. Reporters get arrested. People who talk back to cops get arrested. Innocent people get arrested and die in jail. Other people are never charged but have their property stolen under dubious "asset forfeiture" schemes. Or the local government funds their city by targeting and ticketing POC for anything they can think of. Any accurate discussion about possible outcomes when dealing with the police in the U.S. has to acknowledge that.

tldr; I agree with thelonius and Lame_username. If your pot dealing friend gets busted the police are more likely to be interested in bigger fish and the risk to you (probably) approaches zero. But it would be reckless not to address potential police and prosecutorial misconduct.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:41 PM on September 20, 2017

This is literally every possible electronic payments provider. In fact, it is basically any business that isn't a doctor or lawyer, because essentially everyone complies with subpoenas.

fwiw, my read of that policy says they'll happily, perhaps even proactively, hand over data *without* needing a subpoena.
posted by russm at 9:25 PM on September 20, 2017

I work in this area. These companies (generally speaking) will only release this data with a court order and/or a search warrant. The exception being if there's an immediate threat to safety or other similar urgent situation. I wouldn't worry about them releasing user data too easily.
posted by averageamateur at 4:36 PM on September 21, 2017