How to Help a Child Overcome the Fear of Failure
July 6, 2017 8:06 AM Subscribe
My nine-year-old daughter is very bright, outgoing, and fun. She does very well in school and has a good group of friends. She is a joy to be with. But she is utterly afraid of taking part in any activity that presents an opportunity where she could possibly fail (even if it is unlikely), and I see this holding her back. Looking for strategies from former kids who successfully addressed this fear, or from parents who have had a similar challenge.
An illustrative example of what I'm talking about (there are dozens more like it):
We recently joined a community pool for the summer. In order to use the deep end and/or diving boards, any child under the age of 15 must take a swim test. It's a simple test -- swim one length of the pool and tread water for a minute. My daughter has taken 5 years of swimming lessons and could do this in her sleep (I've seen her swim 6 laps and tread water for 10 minutes under different circumstances). But she absolutely REFUSED to take the test, and admitted it was "because I might not pass." I tried to assure her that even if she didn't pass, it was no big deal and she could try again, but she was adamant. I finally resorted to a regretful bully tactic and told her she couldn't come swimming again unless she took the test. She acquiesced under duress, passed, and was subsequently happily swimming in the deep end, but later told me she was really upset that I forced her to do it. I acknowledge that forcing her was probably not a good tactic and was more a symptom of my unchecked frustration than a well-considered parenting move.
But, swimming aside, she is like this with nearly everything. Even though she was nominated as the best speller in her class, she wouldn't participate in the school-wide spelling bee because she feared she might not win; she doesn't want to do a piano recital (an intimate one) for fear of screwing up; she has gotten in trouble for not participating in gym in sports where she is uncertain about the rules (has later admitted she would rather sit out than risk screwing up and getting negative attention from classmates).
All this seems to point to low self-esteem, but in other areas of her life she seems to have a very high degree of confidence -- but these are things she already knows how to do (usually because mom and I have forced her past the initial "this is scary" phase of a new activity and encouraged persistence into the "this is actually fun" phase).
On one hand, I don't want to force my kids to do stuff they really don't want to do, especially if it's not necessary. On the other hand, allowing children to avoid the experience of failure by removing any chance of its occurrence is not a life lesson that I want to teach, either.
I often share stories with her about my many, many failures in life (small and large) to try to let her know that the world doesn't end when you don't get 100% on a math test or if you strike out at the plate, and she seems to appreciate it, but it doesn't really seem to resonate with her.
So, in short, I'd like to raise a young woman who is confident -- not simply through achievements in areas that she's already naturally good at, but also through the lessons that come through failure, trying again, and eventual success (or, sometimes just failure alone). When I give praise, I almost always try to praise her effort and hard work, rather than simply results, but I feel like I could be doing more.
Former kids or current parents dealing with this, any suggestions for this dad?
An illustrative example of what I'm talking about (there are dozens more like it):
We recently joined a community pool for the summer. In order to use the deep end and/or diving boards, any child under the age of 15 must take a swim test. It's a simple test -- swim one length of the pool and tread water for a minute. My daughter has taken 5 years of swimming lessons and could do this in her sleep (I've seen her swim 6 laps and tread water for 10 minutes under different circumstances). But she absolutely REFUSED to take the test, and admitted it was "because I might not pass." I tried to assure her that even if she didn't pass, it was no big deal and she could try again, but she was adamant. I finally resorted to a regretful bully tactic and told her she couldn't come swimming again unless she took the test. She acquiesced under duress, passed, and was subsequently happily swimming in the deep end, but later told me she was really upset that I forced her to do it. I acknowledge that forcing her was probably not a good tactic and was more a symptom of my unchecked frustration than a well-considered parenting move.
But, swimming aside, she is like this with nearly everything. Even though she was nominated as the best speller in her class, she wouldn't participate in the school-wide spelling bee because she feared she might not win; she doesn't want to do a piano recital (an intimate one) for fear of screwing up; she has gotten in trouble for not participating in gym in sports where she is uncertain about the rules (has later admitted she would rather sit out than risk screwing up and getting negative attention from classmates).
All this seems to point to low self-esteem, but in other areas of her life she seems to have a very high degree of confidence -- but these are things she already knows how to do (usually because mom and I have forced her past the initial "this is scary" phase of a new activity and encouraged persistence into the "this is actually fun" phase).
On one hand, I don't want to force my kids to do stuff they really don't want to do, especially if it's not necessary. On the other hand, allowing children to avoid the experience of failure by removing any chance of its occurrence is not a life lesson that I want to teach, either.
I often share stories with her about my many, many failures in life (small and large) to try to let her know that the world doesn't end when you don't get 100% on a math test or if you strike out at the plate, and she seems to appreciate it, but it doesn't really seem to resonate with her.
So, in short, I'd like to raise a young woman who is confident -- not simply through achievements in areas that she's already naturally good at, but also through the lessons that come through failure, trying again, and eventual success (or, sometimes just failure alone). When I give praise, I almost always try to praise her effort and hard work, rather than simply results, but I feel like I could be doing more.
Former kids or current parents dealing with this, any suggestions for this dad?
This is actually a trickier conundrum than I think modern parenting dogma holds, but it does give a place to start.
Although you say you praise her effort rather than her results, pretty much everything positive you say about her here is predicated on her successes and her abilities, not on, e.g., her perseverance or determination or good motives for her actions. And everything you say about failure is keyed to the idea that the outcome should be your focus, possibly mitigated by human frailty, rather than recognizing that one can show many good qualities regardless of outcome. So--while obviously random Internet poster is not there to observe you daily--I wonder if you are actually conveying what you think you are conveying.
posted by praemunire at 8:17 AM on July 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
Although you say you praise her effort rather than her results, pretty much everything positive you say about her here is predicated on her successes and her abilities, not on, e.g., her perseverance or determination or good motives for her actions. And everything you say about failure is keyed to the idea that the outcome should be your focus, possibly mitigated by human frailty, rather than recognizing that one can show many good qualities regardless of outcome. So--while obviously random Internet poster is not there to observe you daily--I wonder if you are actually conveying what you think you are conveying.
posted by praemunire at 8:17 AM on July 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
I was like this. In short, my parent forced me to do stuff I didn't really want to do, even though it wasn't necessary.
So I did a summer swim league, and I was pretty much the weakest link in every relay, but I showed up at every practice, put in the work, cheered on my teammates, and learned to be not very good at that.
Later, I played community softball. I was pretty bad at that, too. It was tough at the time, but it was good for me, and I learned a lot about being a part of a team, sticking with it when things don't come naturally and that you don't have to be good at everything to be a worthwhile contributor. It was good for me.
You mention piano recitals though, so I'm just throwing this out there: My piano lessons made me terrified of making mistakes. My childhood teacher made me play a piece to perfection before I could move on to the next one. Less than perfection was not rewarded. She was a nice old church lady too, it's not like she was horrifically mean to me. But she fostered in me a fear of making mistakes at the piano, and a tendancy to tense up at an error that follows me into adulthood (and generally makes piano something I don't enjoy as much as I could, even for myself). My college piano professor did what she could to combat this emotional block, and it helped, but ultimately this view is entrenched into who I am when it comes to piano playing. So just a heads up that with this particular issue (fear of failing), piano was probably not my friend in the long term, due to how I was being taught.
posted by terilou at 8:20 AM on July 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
So I did a summer swim league, and I was pretty much the weakest link in every relay, but I showed up at every practice, put in the work, cheered on my teammates, and learned to be not very good at that.
Later, I played community softball. I was pretty bad at that, too. It was tough at the time, but it was good for me, and I learned a lot about being a part of a team, sticking with it when things don't come naturally and that you don't have to be good at everything to be a worthwhile contributor. It was good for me.
You mention piano recitals though, so I'm just throwing this out there: My piano lessons made me terrified of making mistakes. My childhood teacher made me play a piece to perfection before I could move on to the next one. Less than perfection was not rewarded. She was a nice old church lady too, it's not like she was horrifically mean to me. But she fostered in me a fear of making mistakes at the piano, and a tendancy to tense up at an error that follows me into adulthood (and generally makes piano something I don't enjoy as much as I could, even for myself). My college piano professor did what she could to combat this emotional block, and it helped, but ultimately this view is entrenched into who I am when it comes to piano playing. So just a heads up that with this particular issue (fear of failing), piano was probably not my friend in the long term, due to how I was being taught.
posted by terilou at 8:20 AM on July 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Is she in any team sports? Because learning to cheer for people for "good try, good try"is a big part of what is learned. Alternatively: sleep away camp, but one that is focused on well-rounded skills development (PM me if you'd like a model of what I mean.)
posted by DarlingBri at 8:24 AM on July 6, 2017
posted by DarlingBri at 8:24 AM on July 6, 2017
It may be helpful for you to read "Mindset" by Carol Dweck. At the very least, do some googling about it.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 8:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is what Carol Dweck Ph.D. has built her body of research around -- mindset. When someone gets put in a fixed mindset, they're afraid to try because the failure will reflect on who they are as a person (I misspelled a word, so I'm a bad speller). On the other hand, when someone gets put in a growth mindset, they're willing to try because they recognize that mistakes don't change them as a person (I misspelled a word, I'll study more next time and will probably get it right.)
Mindset Online
Mindset Book
You can also google Carol Dweck Mindset Video and get a bunch of her talks to get a good idea of the concept.
posted by Nerro at 8:29 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Mindset Online
Mindset Book
You can also google Carol Dweck Mindset Video and get a bunch of her talks to get a good idea of the concept.
posted by Nerro at 8:29 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Oh god, I was like this. I still struggle! Liberation came in chunks. I needed *really* strong motivators.
1) I was terrified of driving, I didn't conquer my fear until I had to make a solo trip cross country. Good thing my first love was waiting on the other end!
2) Scared of biking in traffic. I walked and took the bus for three years, until one day I ran out of bus money and had to keep an appointment with a special mentor across town. Vroom vroom!
3) Boxing with other women at a social gym. Nobody's good to start. There's no machismo. It's internally competitive. Punching feels so great, I'm excited to do it even if I don't land a single strike. I've always been clumsy, it's amazing to feel grounded in my body. Wham!
4) Drawing from life. I was never any good, but the trope of the tireless art genius actually worked well for me, cuz I could "attack" the canvas again and again without remorse. All drawings are failures. I'd make 10 or 15 drawings in a session and throw them all away. Kill your darlings.
5) I've learned about my cognitive style. I have aphantasia, I need a strong conceptual framework to understand new activities. I don't learn well with linear progression that doesn't address "why." Because my method is broad and top-down, I can expect to feel terrible until I've build up experience. Success isn't a series of evenly spaced steps for me... it's a massive valley of suck followed by a sudden blue sky when everything "clicks" into place.
Model assertiveness! If she feels unsure about rules, can she ask clarifying questions?
posted by fritillary at 8:35 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
1) I was terrified of driving, I didn't conquer my fear until I had to make a solo trip cross country. Good thing my first love was waiting on the other end!
2) Scared of biking in traffic. I walked and took the bus for three years, until one day I ran out of bus money and had to keep an appointment with a special mentor across town. Vroom vroom!
3) Boxing with other women at a social gym. Nobody's good to start. There's no machismo. It's internally competitive. Punching feels so great, I'm excited to do it even if I don't land a single strike. I've always been clumsy, it's amazing to feel grounded in my body. Wham!
4) Drawing from life. I was never any good, but the trope of the tireless art genius actually worked well for me, cuz I could "attack" the canvas again and again without remorse. All drawings are failures. I'd make 10 or 15 drawings in a session and throw them all away. Kill your darlings.
5) I've learned about my cognitive style. I have aphantasia, I need a strong conceptual framework to understand new activities. I don't learn well with linear progression that doesn't address "why." Because my method is broad and top-down, I can expect to feel terrible until I've build up experience. Success isn't a series of evenly spaced steps for me... it's a massive valley of suck followed by a sudden blue sky when everything "clicks" into place.
Model assertiveness! If she feels unsure about rules, can she ask clarifying questions?
posted by fritillary at 8:35 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Dweck's works is also summarized in the pop-parenting book Nurtureshock, which is an easy enough introduction.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:38 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:38 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think that telling her she couldn't swim unless she took the test was necessarily a bad move; I probably would have done the same thing and thought of it as "logical consequences" rather than bullying.
Brene Brown has a fantastic audiobook that covers this parenting conundrum in detail (the whole thing is short, only a couple hours). Two aspects that leapt out at me when I listened to it was parents demonstrating and sharing their own failures with their kids (when appropriate, of course) and helping kids redefine "success" as just showing up/attempting the test/finishing the race/giving it your best shot, etc. separate from actual outcome. I really encourage you to give it a listen.
posted by anderjen at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Brene Brown has a fantastic audiobook that covers this parenting conundrum in detail (the whole thing is short, only a couple hours). Two aspects that leapt out at me when I listened to it was parents demonstrating and sharing their own failures with their kids (when appropriate, of course) and helping kids redefine "success" as just showing up/attempting the test/finishing the race/giving it your best shot, etc. separate from actual outcome. I really encourage you to give it a listen.
posted by anderjen at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh also, learning that mistakes are the best way to train neurons! I imagine my myelin sheaths growing every time I fail.
Learning How to Learn
posted by fritillary at 8:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Learning How to Learn
posted by fritillary at 8:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Activities where she sees people fail and succeed by competing against themselves, being friendly and supportive, non-competitive etc. are great helps here. Look for something she's interested in but has no great natural skill at (music, cooking, a sport that she's not built for, dance etc). Applaud her interactions and fun, not her performance.
If you can, enrol yourself or her other parent at the same time in a similar adult-group activity to model the same fun-try-and-fail, try and have another go attitude.
My smallest is similar and got a lot out of The Girl Who Never Made Mistakes to start a conversation about her fears.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:48 AM on July 6, 2017
If you can, enrol yourself or her other parent at the same time in a similar adult-group activity to model the same fun-try-and-fail, try and have another go attitude.
My smallest is similar and got a lot out of The Girl Who Never Made Mistakes to start a conversation about her fears.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:48 AM on July 6, 2017
This is such a complex issue, but one that I think everyone can relate to. I definitely had a fear of failure (or possibly success) when I was younger. As an only child, my parents let me have my way (letting me "win" at board games without telling me they were rigging it) or letting me back out of dance recitals without challenge, because I was afraid of performing in front of an audience. I was also taught "life lessons" by my dad where he would tell me mistakes that he had made, and that by knowing them I wouldn't have to repeat them. This, in combination that I was usually good at anything I tried,made me feel like I had no room for failure, and if I didn't think I would be good at something off the bat, I shouldn't try it. The way I think I remedied this is by tapping into my adrenaline junkie spirit. I always loved that feeling of fear, and pushing though it to challenge myself. My freshman year of high school I auditioned for the drama club, because I had always wanted to act, and also get over my fear of performing in front of an audience. I remember freaking out on opening night, as my cheat after had to enter off stage and walk though the auditorium to get to the stage, and I had to have a pep talk from the stage hand who would be holding the door open to even fathom going through with it. Afterward, I had completely lost my stage fright, and had such a love for acting that it became my driving force in high school. I also remember that my best friend would ask really stupid questions (she thought Buffalo was a state because of the quarter) but had no shame in asking them in order to further her knowledge. It made me feel really empowered to be myself and be okay with not seeming all knowing, because getting clarity is something you do for yourself. Ultimately, I think that the way parents act around their children speaks volumes. I don't think my dad's "life lessons" were helpful so much as they made me feel pressured to never make a mistake. Everyone needs to learn lessons for themselves the hard way to truest learn a lesson. I think you should demonstrate that it's okay to make mistakes, in fact, it's a part of life. That could be something as innocuous as forgetting something on the grocery store list, or another part of everyday life. I know I would really have appreciated my parents showing me that they weren't perfect.
The lesson that is worth sharing is that bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's going forward with something despite that fear. If she wants something baldy enough, if she figures out what her passions are, she shouldn't let fear get in the way of something that could bring her great joy.
One last thought: I really enjoyed non- competitive hobbies, like yoga and drama club, where there isn't a winner per-se. It's all about your own journey, so that might take the pressure off if she feels like she has to be the best at something or not go through with it at all. It's so great that you want to help your daughter get though her fear of failure, so model the same fearlessness for her, and let her find her own way through things that she's passionate about!
posted by Champagne Supernova at 8:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The lesson that is worth sharing is that bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's going forward with something despite that fear. If she wants something baldy enough, if she figures out what her passions are, she shouldn't let fear get in the way of something that could bring her great joy.
One last thought: I really enjoyed non- competitive hobbies, like yoga and drama club, where there isn't a winner per-se. It's all about your own journey, so that might take the pressure off if she feels like she has to be the best at something or not go through with it at all. It's so great that you want to help your daughter get though her fear of failure, so model the same fearlessness for her, and let her find her own way through things that she's passionate about!
posted by Champagne Supernova at 8:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for the suggestions and recommendations so far. Very much appreciated.
posted by GorgeousPorridge at 8:50 AM on July 6, 2017
posted by GorgeousPorridge at 8:50 AM on July 6, 2017
I'm not a parent, but I recall reading a profile of the founder of Spanx (stay with me here) in which she said that when she and her sister were growing up, her dad would ask them every day what they had failed at that day, and basically expected them to fail at something regularly - presumably as part of an overall attitude toward trying new things and being okay with the outcome. I thought that was really interesting.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:02 AM on July 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:02 AM on July 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
If the idea is that failing is OK, why not let her 'fail' by chickening out? Next time, she'll try again and be a bit more brave and jump the hurdle? In addition to this, stress that you sometimes chicken out, too, and that it's sometimes really hard to overcome anxiety/perfectionism and messing up/running away is something people do. Right now your approach sounds pretty perfectionist to me, although not in the sense 'you need to ace every test!' but in the sense 'you're not allowed to not try!'
Just a change of perspective, hope this helps.
posted by The Toad at 9:08 AM on July 6, 2017
Just a change of perspective, hope this helps.
posted by The Toad at 9:08 AM on July 6, 2017
Still thinking about this question a lot because it resonates with me. I can tell you as a person who was naturally adept at some things, people telling me I was doing a super-good-job with the finished product felt okay, but it definitely didn't make me want to push my boundaries/try something different. Someone telling me I'm doing a good job trying, though (and I know this can be tricky to do in a non-patronizing way), can really make me appreciate the process more. Like, when I was learning to swim, instructors acknowledging little areas of growth or progress (or even that I was really going for it) were much more motivating to me than seeing how fast I could go on a mile swim.
But yes. This would definitely be a situation where I would go with a kid to an art class or something. I'm dyspraxic, so fine motor skills aren't my thing all the time, but I like to try. And I think showing both pride and a sense of humor about my efforts can be a really good thing to model. I would look for something that your kid has expressed interest in but is apprehensive about that you maybe aren't super-good-at, and see if you can try it out together. Both of you learning at the same time would be rewarding for the both of you!
posted by superlibby at 9:12 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
But yes. This would definitely be a situation where I would go with a kid to an art class or something. I'm dyspraxic, so fine motor skills aren't my thing all the time, but I like to try. And I think showing both pride and a sense of humor about my efforts can be a really good thing to model. I would look for something that your kid has expressed interest in but is apprehensive about that you maybe aren't super-good-at, and see if you can try it out together. Both of you learning at the same time would be rewarding for the both of you!
posted by superlibby at 9:12 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I actually think your daughter is pretty smart and not wrong per say to be afraid of failure. I was forced into doing karate even though I was terrible at it. The embarrassment of having to perform in front of a class full of snickers and whispers will stay with me for the rest of my life. I know it sounds dramatic, but it honestly scarred me. It was a terrible experience. I didn't learn anything positive from it.
I think there is a HUGE difference between:
1. failing alone
2. failing in front of a room solely full of gracious and mature adults who love you and cut you a lot of slack for being a kid
3. failing in front of one peer or multiple peers (it only takes one to gossip about it later)
If it's the last one she's most worried about, I honestly can't say I blame her. Kids can genuinely be terrible uncivilized little demons who latch onto one failure and never ever let you outlive it. This is real thing and maybe just proves she's pretty perceptive about the meanness and general terribleness of other kids. I would discuss it with her with an open mind and don't start with the presumption that you're right and she needs to come around.
posted by stockpuppet at 9:33 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I think there is a HUGE difference between:
1. failing alone
2. failing in front of a room solely full of gracious and mature adults who love you and cut you a lot of slack for being a kid
3. failing in front of one peer or multiple peers (it only takes one to gossip about it later)
If it's the last one she's most worried about, I honestly can't say I blame her. Kids can genuinely be terrible uncivilized little demons who latch onto one failure and never ever let you outlive it. This is real thing and maybe just proves she's pretty perceptive about the meanness and general terribleness of other kids. I would discuss it with her with an open mind and don't start with the presumption that you're right and she needs to come around.
posted by stockpuppet at 9:33 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
My 8 year old is like this too. Some things that have helped include karate (slow achievement, very precise rules about getting to next level, excellent sensei) and more collaborative games.
posted by k8t at 9:44 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 9:44 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This was definitely me—I once faked sick so I wouldn't have to defend my title at a school academic contest.
For me it was a matter of reputation: The only one I had, and so the only identity I had that seemed to have any currency outside my own brain, was as the very smart kid. Losing that seemed like an unthinkably bad possibility, both because there was nothing else behind it and because "having an identity" ("being yourself") was held to be such an important thing.
Even now I'm pretty bad about this; if I am part of something that's unexpectedly successful it's really hard for me to say "Let's roll this back out and probably make people slightly disappointed in the followup." Two things that have made it better, though:
1. I exist in a bunch of other contexts, both to myself and other people. As an adult marriage and church have been very helpful, but as a kid it was just a matter of being able to belong to friend groups as something other than "the smart kid." I could just be the kid who was friends with my friends.
2. I have failed a lot.
posted by Polycarp at 9:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
For me it was a matter of reputation: The only one I had, and so the only identity I had that seemed to have any currency outside my own brain, was as the very smart kid. Losing that seemed like an unthinkably bad possibility, both because there was nothing else behind it and because "having an identity" ("being yourself") was held to be such an important thing.
Even now I'm pretty bad about this; if I am part of something that's unexpectedly successful it's really hard for me to say "Let's roll this back out and probably make people slightly disappointed in the followup." Two things that have made it better, though:
1. I exist in a bunch of other contexts, both to myself and other people. As an adult marriage and church have been very helpful, but as a kid it was just a matter of being able to belong to friend groups as something other than "the smart kid." I could just be the kid who was friends with my friends.
2. I have failed a lot.
posted by Polycarp at 9:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't want to force my kids to do stuff they really don't want to do,
Kids don't know what they "want" in the larger scheme of things and need structure to keep them doing something.
Kids who fear failure are the ones whose identity is constantly tied up with being successful. (Does she know she's "bright" because people keep telling her she is? That's how it starts)
The thing is that left to their own devices, kids, and many adults, will take the path of least resistance rather than doing something challenging and getting slowly better at something over time that requires being poor at something before getting good at it. They require supervision and encouragement to keep them persisting and achieving small minor successes so they persevere rather than expecting that they will practice and persevere on their own.
posted by deanc at 9:50 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Kids don't know what they "want" in the larger scheme of things and need structure to keep them doing something.
Kids who fear failure are the ones whose identity is constantly tied up with being successful. (Does she know she's "bright" because people keep telling her she is? That's how it starts)
The thing is that left to their own devices, kids, and many adults, will take the path of least resistance rather than doing something challenging and getting slowly better at something over time that requires being poor at something before getting good at it. They require supervision and encouragement to keep them persisting and achieving small minor successes so they persevere rather than expecting that they will practice and persevere on their own.
posted by deanc at 9:50 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm your daughter, grown up (a little). I still struggle with this on many axes.
One thing that helped me a lot was to have opportunities where I could do things alongside peers and watch peers fail and struggle and all that - sort of seeing the underside of people's "duck syndrome". It usually gets me unstuck to do something with other people. That's part of the reason that college was much less stressful than high school...I lived in a dorm and struggled alongside everyone else.
Even now, when I struggle with something, I have to force myself to find someone in a similar situation or find help from another person to get me unstuck or else I'll avoid it altogether.
Also, I'm starting to find that CBT techniques help a lot. Still learning about that one, though.
posted by R a c h e l at 10:22 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing that helped me a lot was to have opportunities where I could do things alongside peers and watch peers fail and struggle and all that - sort of seeing the underside of people's "duck syndrome". It usually gets me unstuck to do something with other people. That's part of the reason that college was much less stressful than high school...I lived in a dorm and struggled alongside everyone else.
Even now, when I struggle with something, I have to force myself to find someone in a similar situation or find help from another person to get me unstuck or else I'll avoid it altogether.
Also, I'm starting to find that CBT techniques help a lot. Still learning about that one, though.
posted by R a c h e l at 10:22 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is something that is SUPER common among gifted kids.
It's also SUPER common among neurotypical kids. I'm a veteran special education teacher, and I'm going to give you advice which is pretty contrary to what other people are saying:
Let her choose what she wants to do.
One of the absolute best things parents can do is to show their kid that they trust them to make the right decisions for themselves.
For your pool example, you should have explained the rule and then dropped it. She's the one who gets to swim or not, ensure that it's her decision. Throughout life, she will work for the things that wants badly enough.
You should take a step back and have a good long think about how often you're suggesting she do things that she doesn't want to do. It's probably a lot more than you realize, and instead of being encouraging, what you're really doing is telling her you don't think she's smart enough to make her own decisions.
Empower her by letting her decide for herself, let her see natural consequences of those decisions. So what if she doesn't want to do this piano recital or participate in the spelling bee? Does it really matter? For your PE example, she was taught a good lesson about her choice to not participate. Knowing those consequences, she will probably make a different choice next time.
Let her be. It can be really damaging for a kid to grow up feeling like their parent doesn't respect them enough to think for themselves. Next time a situation arises, ask her what she feels like doing and then drop it. Praise her for making good choices; choices that suit her.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:17 AM on July 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
It's also SUPER common among neurotypical kids. I'm a veteran special education teacher, and I'm going to give you advice which is pretty contrary to what other people are saying:
Let her choose what she wants to do.
One of the absolute best things parents can do is to show their kid that they trust them to make the right decisions for themselves.
For your pool example, you should have explained the rule and then dropped it. She's the one who gets to swim or not, ensure that it's her decision. Throughout life, she will work for the things that wants badly enough.
You should take a step back and have a good long think about how often you're suggesting she do things that she doesn't want to do. It's probably a lot more than you realize, and instead of being encouraging, what you're really doing is telling her you don't think she's smart enough to make her own decisions.
Empower her by letting her decide for herself, let her see natural consequences of those decisions. So what if she doesn't want to do this piano recital or participate in the spelling bee? Does it really matter? For your PE example, she was taught a good lesson about her choice to not participate. Knowing those consequences, she will probably make a different choice next time.
Let her be. It can be really damaging for a kid to grow up feeling like their parent doesn't respect them enough to think for themselves. Next time a situation arises, ask her what she feels like doing and then drop it. Praise her for making good choices; choices that suit her.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:17 AM on July 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
later told me she was really upset that I forced her to do it. I acknowledge that forcing her was probably not a good tactic and was more a symptom of my unchecked frustration than a well-considered parenting move.
acknowledge now, to the internet, or acknowledged to her, at the time, with an apology? She sounds smart enough to understand it just the way you explained it here, if you didn't already.
Sometimes kids are like this because of anxiety and sometimes they are like this because the only power and control they have is the power to say No (because when you're a kid, you can't assert positive control by deciding to go and do something that's not allowed -- you physically don't have the ability. but you do have the ability to refuse things that are demanded of you.) the urge to force her to do things is questionable if fear is her problem but absolutely counterproductive if control is her desire.
force her to go to school, go to bed at night, and do her homework, for sure. force her to practice any instruments she takes lessons for. force her to be well-behaved. but don't force her to perform when she doesn't want to perform in public; don't force her to compete athletically when she doesn't want to compete. You do not raise a confident daughter by telling her that her wants are irrelevant, and you know best. You will do wonders for her confidence by respecting that some decisions are hers to make and that always doing what your parents tell you is the opposite of being brave.
she's also not avoiding the possibility of failure. when she refuses these experiences, she's failing to please you. I doubt that's what she's after and I'm sure you try not to come across that way. but you seem as motivated by the fear of her failure, in your own way, as she is. if it's so OK to fail, why is it not OK to fail at being confident? These are hard pseudo-philosophical points for a young kid to articulate, but not hard for them to think of and dwell on.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:20 AM on July 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
acknowledge now, to the internet, or acknowledged to her, at the time, with an apology? She sounds smart enough to understand it just the way you explained it here, if you didn't already.
Sometimes kids are like this because of anxiety and sometimes they are like this because the only power and control they have is the power to say No (because when you're a kid, you can't assert positive control by deciding to go and do something that's not allowed -- you physically don't have the ability. but you do have the ability to refuse things that are demanded of you.) the urge to force her to do things is questionable if fear is her problem but absolutely counterproductive if control is her desire.
force her to go to school, go to bed at night, and do her homework, for sure. force her to practice any instruments she takes lessons for. force her to be well-behaved. but don't force her to perform when she doesn't want to perform in public; don't force her to compete athletically when she doesn't want to compete. You do not raise a confident daughter by telling her that her wants are irrelevant, and you know best. You will do wonders for her confidence by respecting that some decisions are hers to make and that always doing what your parents tell you is the opposite of being brave.
she's also not avoiding the possibility of failure. when she refuses these experiences, she's failing to please you. I doubt that's what she's after and I'm sure you try not to come across that way. but you seem as motivated by the fear of her failure, in your own way, as she is. if it's so OK to fail, why is it not OK to fail at being confident? These are hard pseudo-philosophical points for a young kid to articulate, but not hard for them to think of and dwell on.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:20 AM on July 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
This is sort of a weird, slantwise suggestion, but maybe see if she likes watching American Ninja Warrior. It's silly tv she may or may not be drawn to, but the focus is entirely on trying and failing and trying again, and it's addictively positive.
posted by the primroses were over at 11:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by the primroses were over at 11:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
But, swimming aside, she is like this with nearly everything. Even though she was nominated as the best speller in her class, she wouldn't participate in the school-wide spelling bee because she feared she might not win; she doesn't want to do a piano recital (an intimate one) for fear of screwing up; she has gotten in trouble for not participating in gym in sports where she is uncertain about the rules (has later admitted she would rather sit out than risk screwing up and getting negative attention from classmates).
All this seems to point to low self-esteem, but in other areas of her life she seems to have a very high degree of confidence -- but these are things she already knows how to do (usually because mom and I have forced her past the initial "this is scary" phase of a new activity and encouraged persistence into the "this is actually fun" phase).
I was/am EXACTLY like this, though I've gotten much better over the years. And it was largely because there was so much stuff that I could just grasp immediately - so anything I couldn't grasp immediately, I just assumed I couldn't do, full stop.
It can be linked to giftedness. In my case it was also linked to an undiagnosed anxiety disorder.
I would highly encourage you to do some reading on anxiety in kids and how it can manifest, because it doesn't always look the way you'd expect it to.
And I would push back against people encouraging you to just let this go. Don't put a bunch of pressure on her, but keep looking into this.
I didn't learn to drive until I was 22, or to ride a bike until I was 24, because I was too afraid. (Like your daughter I only learned to swim when someone basically made me do it.) In high school I didn't go out for a club I really wanted to be in because it made me too anxious to try to figure out how I would get home afterward. I also missed out on high school parties I was explicitly invited to because I was too afraid to call and ask for the number. Despite making all As and Bs in school I've had lifelong issues with anxiety-related procrastination. I've also had serious issues with anxiety related to dating. These things have had a negative impact on my life, and in the past few years since I was diagnosed, it has become much easier for me to address them. (Addressing it doesn't have to mean medication, btw.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:00 PM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
All this seems to point to low self-esteem, but in other areas of her life she seems to have a very high degree of confidence -- but these are things she already knows how to do (usually because mom and I have forced her past the initial "this is scary" phase of a new activity and encouraged persistence into the "this is actually fun" phase).
I was/am EXACTLY like this, though I've gotten much better over the years. And it was largely because there was so much stuff that I could just grasp immediately - so anything I couldn't grasp immediately, I just assumed I couldn't do, full stop.
It can be linked to giftedness. In my case it was also linked to an undiagnosed anxiety disorder.
I would highly encourage you to do some reading on anxiety in kids and how it can manifest, because it doesn't always look the way you'd expect it to.
And I would push back against people encouraging you to just let this go. Don't put a bunch of pressure on her, but keep looking into this.
I didn't learn to drive until I was 22, or to ride a bike until I was 24, because I was too afraid. (Like your daughter I only learned to swim when someone basically made me do it.) In high school I didn't go out for a club I really wanted to be in because it made me too anxious to try to figure out how I would get home afterward. I also missed out on high school parties I was explicitly invited to because I was too afraid to call and ask for the number. Despite making all As and Bs in school I've had lifelong issues with anxiety-related procrastination. I've also had serious issues with anxiety related to dating. These things have had a negative impact on my life, and in the past few years since I was diagnosed, it has become much easier for me to address them. (Addressing it doesn't have to mean medication, btw.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:00 PM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
she's also not avoiding the possibility of failure. when she refuses these experiences, she's failing to please you.
This could be the case. It could also not be the case, based on my personal memories of being a kid.
My brain hack around this was to frame holding back from something because of irrational fear being, in and of itself, a failure. In fact, it was arguably a bigger failure-- it was a failure to understand the situation properly and assess my abilities in light of it, plus, now, I'd failed at being brave and courageous and not giving a fuck what my peers thought. Would I rather be a failure, or a failure and a coward?
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:17 PM on July 6, 2017
This could be the case. It could also not be the case, based on my personal memories of being a kid.
My brain hack around this was to frame holding back from something because of irrational fear being, in and of itself, a failure. In fact, it was arguably a bigger failure-- it was a failure to understand the situation properly and assess my abilities in light of it, plus, now, I'd failed at being brave and courageous and not giving a fuck what my peers thought. Would I rather be a failure, or a failure and a coward?
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:17 PM on July 6, 2017
One of the things Dweck finds amazingly effective in her research is to talk with kids explicitly about the value of struggling with hard things. You can talk with your daughter about how her muscles get stronger, and draw a comparison to how her brain gets stronger.
Have her think about whether her muscles would get stronger if she lifted light things that are very easy for her to move, or heavy things that are a struggle at first, and that take work to move. Explain that the brain is like a muscle in this way -- it gets stronger when you struggle with things. That feeling she's avoiding, of something being hard, is exactly the feeling she needs to appreciate as a good, brain-boosting workout. Help her learn to love that feeling of her brain working as she tries to figure out something hard. Whether or not she successfully figures it out, she can feel great that working at it is helping her get better.
posted by daisyace at 6:55 PM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Have her think about whether her muscles would get stronger if she lifted light things that are very easy for her to move, or heavy things that are a struggle at first, and that take work to move. Explain that the brain is like a muscle in this way -- it gets stronger when you struggle with things. That feeling she's avoiding, of something being hard, is exactly the feeling she needs to appreciate as a good, brain-boosting workout. Help her learn to love that feeling of her brain working as she tries to figure out something hard. Whether or not she successfully figures it out, she can feel great that working at it is helping her get better.
posted by daisyace at 6:55 PM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
to frame holding back from something because of irrational fear being, in and of itself, a failure. In fact, it was arguably a bigger failure-- it was a failure to understand the situation properly and assess my abilities in light of it, plus, now, I'd failed at being brave and courageous and not giving a fuck what my peers thought. Would I rather be a failure, or a failure and a coward?
oh god, but I did this too. to this day I get myself to behave decently when I absolutely have to because I consciously decided, when I was young and very into conscious decisions, that cowardice was beneath contempt. I was one of your typical self-conscious perfectionist sick with anxiety superiority complex children, but now am well able to walk right into horrible humiliation because the conceit that I am bold and I do what I want is of paramount importance. I can't say this is a great state to be in, for me.
this is exactly why nowadays I feel very indignant on behalf of apparently shame-driven children. because the ability to shamelessly self-protect, to allow god and your parents and everybody to see that you are scared of something and that is the reason you don't want to do it, is an ability I burned out of myself when I was younger than the OP's kid. the very idea of admitting that you're scared to do something because you might not do it well, is like some kind of high-level magical skill I have a hard time believing is real. if I were this girl's peer I would be shocked to the core to see her so honest, not trying to hide it. you can do that? I would have thought. you're not too ashamed to let your parents know you're afraid?
I understand what people think is bad about this quality but the honesty, even if grudging, is extremely impressive and shouldn't be taken for granted.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:04 PM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
oh god, but I did this too. to this day I get myself to behave decently when I absolutely have to because I consciously decided, when I was young and very into conscious decisions, that cowardice was beneath contempt. I was one of your typical self-conscious perfectionist sick with anxiety superiority complex children, but now am well able to walk right into horrible humiliation because the conceit that I am bold and I do what I want is of paramount importance. I can't say this is a great state to be in, for me.
this is exactly why nowadays I feel very indignant on behalf of apparently shame-driven children. because the ability to shamelessly self-protect, to allow god and your parents and everybody to see that you are scared of something and that is the reason you don't want to do it, is an ability I burned out of myself when I was younger than the OP's kid. the very idea of admitting that you're scared to do something because you might not do it well, is like some kind of high-level magical skill I have a hard time believing is real. if I were this girl's peer I would be shocked to the core to see her so honest, not trying to hide it. you can do that? I would have thought. you're not too ashamed to let your parents know you're afraid?
I understand what people think is bad about this quality but the honesty, even if grudging, is extremely impressive and shouldn't be taken for granted.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:04 PM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
My quite competitive, high achieving mum used to say to (high achieving, anxious) me before anything she knew I was anxious about competing in "I'll love you no matter what happens" and you could tell she really meant it. It's suck with me my whole life and got me through some hard times and I think was a huge help as a kid.
posted by hotcoroner at 4:14 AM on July 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by hotcoroner at 4:14 AM on July 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was and to an extent still am like this, and it's the gifted-anxious one-two punch. Early professional help in addressing my anxiety and depression, which was fully in effect by age ten at the very latest, could have made my life very different.
Which is not to say that this is necessarily a thing that needs fixing; it may just be the way your daughter is, and there are ways in which it is good and admirable and worth reinforcing that she can express her feelings and make her own choices about trade-offs and stick with them. If she would prefer to hang in the shallow end vs. take a dive test, then as long as you know she's capable of swimming if she needs to in a life-saving situation, what's the big deal? Let the kid do what makes her happy, and respect her growing autonomy and ability to make choices about her life. Learning to fail is an important lesson, but so is learning that she deserves to set boundaries and have them respected.
That said, if this is a recurring pattern, or if you see other ways in which you think she might be having anxiety issues, maybe it's worth doing an evaluation with a child/family psychiatrist to get some feedback on whether she might benefit from talking to someone about this stuff and/or whether you can learn better skills for determining when/how to push her and when not to.
posted by Stacey at 5:43 AM on July 7, 2017
Which is not to say that this is necessarily a thing that needs fixing; it may just be the way your daughter is, and there are ways in which it is good and admirable and worth reinforcing that she can express her feelings and make her own choices about trade-offs and stick with them. If she would prefer to hang in the shallow end vs. take a dive test, then as long as you know she's capable of swimming if she needs to in a life-saving situation, what's the big deal? Let the kid do what makes her happy, and respect her growing autonomy and ability to make choices about her life. Learning to fail is an important lesson, but so is learning that she deserves to set boundaries and have them respected.
That said, if this is a recurring pattern, or if you see other ways in which you think she might be having anxiety issues, maybe it's worth doing an evaluation with a child/family psychiatrist to get some feedback on whether she might benefit from talking to someone about this stuff and/or whether you can learn better skills for determining when/how to push her and when not to.
posted by Stacey at 5:43 AM on July 7, 2017
I have two kids like this. A book that has helped is "What to Do When You Worry Too Much: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Anxiety" because it has given us common language and a way to identify different aspects of the worry.
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:20 AM on July 7, 2017
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:20 AM on July 7, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
Question: do you actually model the failure (so do something in front of her that you bungle up and are not good at) or tell her about it? Because I can tell you, both as a former one of these paralyzingly perfectionist kids and as an adult who has worked extensively with them, showing and not telling works about 1000% percent better.
And it can be little things - like, just verbally acknowledging that "Oh, I made the wrong turn," or working on a craft or something with her that doesn't play to your natural strengths and showing her the results. But I think modeling what mistakes/not being good at something looks like, owning it in an honest but not-overly-self-critical way, and doing the thing again can be HUGE.
posted by superlibby at 8:15 AM on July 6, 2017 [25 favorites]