My mother is being bullied and I don't know how to help
June 9, 2017 8:59 PM Subscribe
My 70 year old mom's neighbor is bullying her. Mom and Dad have been in their home 45 years. New neighbors have been next door about a year. Mom just told me that the lady next door has been pulling up Mom's flowers (she witnessed it), cutting her jade plants that bend over the property line, and the like.
This lady had a "surveyor" survey the property and claims Mom's planters are two inches into their property. Neighbor put little red flags in the planter boxes. Mom thinks surveyors are independent but it sounds like a scam to me. In any case, what advice can I give my mom dealing with someone so hostile and weird (re pulling up her plants)? Mom says the few times they interacted the neighbor was verbally aggressive with Mom, and Mom just replied "they're flowers." She doesn't want to pay for her own surveyor, or an attorney, and neither of us like conflict. But she's now anxious gardening in her own yard, and I can't stand that this is happening to my kind and gentle mother. All advice welcome and appreciated. We're in the South Bay near Los Angeles (I live near them). Thank you.
This lady had a "surveyor" survey the property and claims Mom's planters are two inches into their property. Neighbor put little red flags in the planter boxes. Mom thinks surveyors are independent but it sounds like a scam to me. In any case, what advice can I give my mom dealing with someone so hostile and weird (re pulling up her plants)? Mom says the few times they interacted the neighbor was verbally aggressive with Mom, and Mom just replied "they're flowers." She doesn't want to pay for her own surveyor, or an attorney, and neither of us like conflict. But she's now anxious gardening in her own yard, and I can't stand that this is happening to my kind and gentle mother. All advice welcome and appreciated. We're in the South Bay near Los Angeles (I live near them). Thank you.
Survey and then fence. Good fences make good neighbors...or at least then you don't need to see them.
Also, document, document, document. Photos, dates and words. You never know how it might escalate.
posted by Toddles at 9:25 PM on June 9, 2017 [48 favorites]
Also, document, document, document. Photos, dates and words. You never know how it might escalate.
posted by Toddles at 9:25 PM on June 9, 2017 [48 favorites]
My parents were also bullied by neighbors. I can't recall what set it off but it may have been about a fence. They moved in and wanted to put in a fence and I think my parents declined to help pay (there was already a mature cedar hedge). The neighbors also built some sort of overhang into a part of the property that bordered the houses, which contravened fire codes. My father told the city about it, which made them mad.
So the neighbor's response was to hang lingerie (???) on a sundeck facing my parents' sundeck. It was really twisted and weird. I think the harangued my mother. She was definitely singled out. They were hoping to get a rise out of my father.
What worked was just ignoring them. They did not intrude on my parents' property, but my parents did install a gate and so on.
In this case it seems like time to survey and install a fence.
posted by My Dad at 10:03 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
So the neighbor's response was to hang lingerie (???) on a sundeck facing my parents' sundeck. It was really twisted and weird. I think the harangued my mother. She was definitely singled out. They were hoping to get a rise out of my father.
What worked was just ignoring them. They did not intrude on my parents' property, but my parents did install a gate and so on.
In this case it seems like time to survey and install a fence.
posted by My Dad at 10:03 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is a conflict over two inches? Can you just help your mom move the planters? Or would the bullying just shift to some other topic? If the choice is "pay $500 for a survey and $1000 for a fence" vs "move planters over by 2 inches and let the neighbor think that she won," the latter might be worth considering.
posted by salvia at 10:32 PM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by salvia at 10:32 PM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
The problem with not confirming the property line is that if your parents do actually own that strip of land, it can have a serious negative effect on their ability to sell the house (or your ability to sell the house if you inherit). Adverse possession and easements can be a serious headache and you want to nip this crap in the bud. It may be worth spending the smaller amount of money for a surveyor now to establish property lines rather than having to fight about it in court later.
This is a serious issue and it's entirely likely that your mom's neighbor is lying to try to add square footage to her property in the shadiest, most underhanded way possible (otherwise, why is the neighbor being such an aggressive jerk instead of going about this the way that rational people would - she's probably trying to bully your mom and dad into not questioning her version of the situation).
This needs to be dealt with and not ignored, as awful as it is that the neighbor is putting your family in this position. Before you hire a surveyor, though, you can visit the county recorder's or assessor's office (or sometimes their website) to see if they have maps of the neighborhood and boundary maps for your parents property. Also, do your parents have a survey of the property from when they bought it? Are there metal boundary stakes on the edges of the property? What does the deed say? Demand proof from the neighbor that your parents are on what she believes is her property and double-check that proof.
posted by i feel possessed at 12:24 AM on June 10, 2017 [76 favorites]
This is a serious issue and it's entirely likely that your mom's neighbor is lying to try to add square footage to her property in the shadiest, most underhanded way possible (otherwise, why is the neighbor being such an aggressive jerk instead of going about this the way that rational people would - she's probably trying to bully your mom and dad into not questioning her version of the situation).
This needs to be dealt with and not ignored, as awful as it is that the neighbor is putting your family in this position. Before you hire a surveyor, though, you can visit the county recorder's or assessor's office (or sometimes their website) to see if they have maps of the neighborhood and boundary maps for your parents property. Also, do your parents have a survey of the property from when they bought it? Are there metal boundary stakes on the edges of the property? What does the deed say? Demand proof from the neighbor that your parents are on what she believes is her property and double-check that proof.
posted by i feel possessed at 12:24 AM on June 10, 2017 [76 favorites]
It is also possible that your neighbor's surveyors were legit and the neighbor is saying "look, the line really is here." It sounds like they are being dicks but that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong. Get your own surveyor. Until then maybe consider moving the planters two inches and making nice. The line isn't going to move just because the planters.did.
posted by zippy at 1:34 AM on June 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by zippy at 1:34 AM on June 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
You should be able to request a copy of the survey from the neighbour and at least work out who the surveyor is, their independence and authority and perhaps talk to them. You could then get a second opinion from another surveyor if it seemed suspect, but at least where I am surveyors are licensed and cannot just make stuff up without risking legal problems.
That's where I'd start, with a bit of put up or shut up.
posted by deadwax at 2:08 AM on June 10, 2017 [16 favorites]
That's where I'd start, with a bit of put up or shut up.
posted by deadwax at 2:08 AM on June 10, 2017 [16 favorites]
Keep in mind that some mortgage lenders and title insurers require surveys to be done before they'll give you a home loan or insure the title. It's frequently recommended that home buyers have a survey done to make sure there are no surprises even if the lender or insurer don't require it. I'm suspicious of the fact that she didn't have a survey done before buying in order to protect herself from just the kind of situation she claims to be in now.
Her claims should at least be met with intense scrutiny since zero proof has been provided. Since she allegedly paid to have a new survey done, she can also pay a lawyer to send your parents a civil, certified letter informing them of the results of the survey and any other information pertinent to the situation. That's how this kind of thing is typically handled, not through aggressive verbal confrontations and passive-aggressive plant murder. It's weird that she didn't even send them a letter to inform them of her dispute.
There is literally no reason to trust someone's word when they're being hostile and aggressive towards you, especially since she has a strong legal and financial motive to behave unethically in this situation. Here are the rules for adverse possession in California:
A trespasser’s possession must, in California, be (i) hostile (against the right of the true owner and without permission); (ii) actual (exercising control over the property); (iii) exclusive (in the possession of the trespasser alone); (iv) open and notorious (using the property as the real owner would, without hiding his or her occupancy); and (v) continuous for the statutory period (which is five years in California under Cal. Civ. Proc. Code § 325).
California has another crucial requirement: An adverse possessor must show that he or she paid taxes on the subject property for all of the five years.
It seems impossible to distinguish in this situation whether the neighbor is being truthful or trying to set up a case for adverse possession to increase the value of her own property at your parents' expense. She only has to be an asshole for next 5 years and make sure she pays the taxes and that strip of land is as good as hers.
And no, this is a perfect case for adverse possession. It may seem stupid or unimportant that she's claiming that weird strip of land but if she gets that little bit of land your parents will have to remeasure the property. If it changes the lot size and shape enough, it could affect zoning, property value and all kinds of other stuff. Don't just take her word for it, make her prove she's right and do your own research to double-check what she says. Being non-confrontational in this situation could actively harm your parents materially.
posted by i feel possessed at 4:25 AM on June 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
Her claims should at least be met with intense scrutiny since zero proof has been provided. Since she allegedly paid to have a new survey done, she can also pay a lawyer to send your parents a civil, certified letter informing them of the results of the survey and any other information pertinent to the situation. That's how this kind of thing is typically handled, not through aggressive verbal confrontations and passive-aggressive plant murder. It's weird that she didn't even send them a letter to inform them of her dispute.
There is literally no reason to trust someone's word when they're being hostile and aggressive towards you, especially since she has a strong legal and financial motive to behave unethically in this situation. Here are the rules for adverse possession in California:
A trespasser’s possession must, in California, be (i) hostile (against the right of the true owner and without permission); (ii) actual (exercising control over the property); (iii) exclusive (in the possession of the trespasser alone); (iv) open and notorious (using the property as the real owner would, without hiding his or her occupancy); and (v) continuous for the statutory period (which is five years in California under Cal. Civ. Proc. Code § 325).
California has another crucial requirement: An adverse possessor must show that he or she paid taxes on the subject property for all of the five years.
It seems impossible to distinguish in this situation whether the neighbor is being truthful or trying to set up a case for adverse possession to increase the value of her own property at your parents' expense. She only has to be an asshole for next 5 years and make sure she pays the taxes and that strip of land is as good as hers.
And no, this is a perfect case for adverse possession. It may seem stupid or unimportant that she's claiming that weird strip of land but if she gets that little bit of land your parents will have to remeasure the property. If it changes the lot size and shape enough, it could affect zoning, property value and all kinds of other stuff. Don't just take her word for it, make her prove she's right and do your own research to double-check what she says. Being non-confrontational in this situation could actively harm your parents materially.
posted by i feel possessed at 4:25 AM on June 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
I hate having to post this, but as my family has just scraped through this in recent years, I want to raise it (as I wish other would have raised it with us).
Are you positive that this is taking place? Have you seen these flags with your own eyes or had encounters with the hostile neighbour yourself? I'm trying to be delicate here, but it is a remote possibility that this may be a fabrication. Try to approach the neighbour yourself and tell them what you have told us - gauge their reaction carefully.
This year a close family member was diagnosed with dementia and we were told the mental deterioration had started years ago. For years we had heard awful stories about our family member's neighbours (uprooting flowers in a shared space, terrible behaviour, inappropriate sexual conduct) - none of which has actual basis in reality but would have been early signs of dementia (called 'fabulation') if we had known.
As I said, I don't mean to offend or imply anything about your family. I am posting this because I wish someone had posted something similar back when my close family member started having trouble.
posted by kariebookish at 4:48 AM on June 10, 2017 [33 favorites]
Are you positive that this is taking place? Have you seen these flags with your own eyes or had encounters with the hostile neighbour yourself? I'm trying to be delicate here, but it is a remote possibility that this may be a fabrication. Try to approach the neighbour yourself and tell them what you have told us - gauge their reaction carefully.
This year a close family member was diagnosed with dementia and we were told the mental deterioration had started years ago. For years we had heard awful stories about our family member's neighbours (uprooting flowers in a shared space, terrible behaviour, inappropriate sexual conduct) - none of which has actual basis in reality but would have been early signs of dementia (called 'fabulation') if we had known.
As I said, I don't mean to offend or imply anything about your family. I am posting this because I wish someone had posted something similar back when my close family member started having trouble.
posted by kariebookish at 4:48 AM on June 10, 2017 [33 favorites]
People can lose their minds over property lines. Especially people who may have stretched themselves thin on a new house purchase. I would recommend your own survey or this issue may never go away. Surveyors in my area run a wire or piece of string along the ground to mark the line. As a word of caution: a friend in our neighborhood actually caught her neighbor moving the surveyor's wire over several inches after a driveway dispute. Can you even? So, get a survey and then document with photos and perhaps something more permanent than a string where the property line lies.
Your parents may not be over the line, but it's possible they are by a couple of inches. While in the grand scheme of life that shouldn't matter, their neighbors maybe perfectly lovely people who have let the stress of a new house/young family/world events override their good neighborly judgement. Hopefully they can all find a friendly solution to the issue.
posted by defreckled at 5:23 AM on June 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Your parents may not be over the line, but it's possible they are by a couple of inches. While in the grand scheme of life that shouldn't matter, their neighbors maybe perfectly lovely people who have let the stress of a new house/young family/world events override their good neighborly judgement. Hopefully they can all find a friendly solution to the issue.
posted by defreckled at 5:23 AM on June 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've cut vines that were growing over the neighbors fence onto our side. I don't like vines. Our neighbor was really upset and said it could kill the vines. I wasn't trying to be aggressive...I just don't like vines. But you could probably write a narrative that sounds similar to yours out of the interaction. Talk to the neighbor yourself and see if you can get a copy of the survey.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 5:26 AM on June 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 5:26 AM on June 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
Your local planning/zoning board--perhaps the LA County Department of Regional Planning--will have resources about property assessments and should be able to give you some guidance around how to proceed.
posted by carrioncomfort at 6:52 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by carrioncomfort at 6:52 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Property line drama can be a big mess, and it's entirely possible that these new neighbors have been on the receiving end of such drama in a previous home and decided to be more proactive to ensure there's no ambiguity this time. Good fences make good neighbors and all that. I'd get your own surveyor. How do your parents know they're not actually on the new neighbor's property?
posted by potrzebie at 8:15 AM on June 10, 2017
posted by potrzebie at 8:15 AM on June 10, 2017
I work for a public law firm that provides free legal advice and representation to seniors- it's nowhere near LA and the hotline ia local, but perhaps there is something similar in tje area- maybe calling a hotlone or visiting attorneys focusing on seniors will give her some ideas and peace of mind.
posted by bearette at 8:50 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bearette at 8:50 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
and make sure she pays the taxes and that strip of land is as good as hers.
How do you pay extra taxes for a 2" strip of land? Either that strip is described in her title or its not. I didn't know about the tax requirement for CA, but if that's the case then she would not be able to claim adverse possession.
posted by hwyengr at 9:08 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
How do you pay extra taxes for a 2" strip of land? Either that strip is described in her title or its not. I didn't know about the tax requirement for CA, but if that's the case then she would not be able to claim adverse possession.
posted by hwyengr at 9:08 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
It might be helpful to reframe this -- she's not being bullied in general; she and the neighbor have a dispute about the property line. That's the problem to solve. I agree with others that your mom should get a survey done so that she's solving the problem with facts, but if she refuses to do that, then she can also just accept the neighbor's survey and stop gardening over the property line (move the planters two inches, make sure her other plants aren't crossing the line). You and she don't need to solve a bullying problem, at least right now; you need to solve a property-line problem.
posted by lazuli at 9:23 AM on June 10, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 9:23 AM on June 10, 2017 [12 favorites]
Here in Portland, there's an organization that offers free mediation services for this sort of dispute between neighbors, when both parties are willing. It usually works, too.
Maybe there's something similar in your mother's area?
posted by aniola at 11:54 AM on June 10, 2017
Maybe there's something similar in your mother's area?
posted by aniola at 11:54 AM on June 10, 2017
Do you have any other family members or friends that are not conflict-averse? if so, get them to come over, then the two of you go knock on the neighbour's door, and politely ask to see the survey. It's very likely that the bully neighbour can tell that you and your mom are the polite sort of people (aka decent humans) that will prefer not to have a confrontation, so they are going to take advantage of that in order to get what they want. Bringing along a person who is immune to that sort of behaviour will send a pretty clear message that you do have your own ways of dealing with things, and they can't just walk all over you. So, you ask to see the documentation - if they share that, get the contact info of the surveyor and contact them yourselves. If they refuse to show it to you, then let them know you will be getting your own survey done, and that you will give them a copy of the results.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:49 PM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:49 PM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hi! I'm a real estate lawyer. You should dig out the title insurance policy from when they bought the house and make a claim on that policy. They handle situations like this ALL THE TIME. If you can't find it, try calling the title company that handled the closing. Or the real estate agent, or maybe even the mortgage company, or pull the original deed of trust and see who the mortgagee was and call them. Or just call around to the big title insurance companies in town and see if the house is on file.
If there's title insurance coverage, they will pay for all this, including lawyers.
posted by radicalawyer at 7:04 PM on June 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
If there's title insurance coverage, they will pay for all this, including lawyers.
posted by radicalawyer at 7:04 PM on June 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all for the feedback. I need to go over it carefully and probably just print it out and review it with my parents. A few notes: The planters are huge, made of brick, old (over fifty years) and would have to be destroyed and rebuilt. My folks don't have a lot of spare cash to spend but I can see they'll have to be flexible about that if possible. I've seen the flags and the pulled flowers, no dementia involved. We're all pretty conflict averse (Dad too) but clearly that's not serving us and I appreciate the encouragement to take action, and tips on what action. Also I have a buddy who does light construction and landscaping so I need to ask him what he could do. Maybe make this a big remodeling/new planting/yay pretty fence opp for Mom thing and turn it into a positive. But biggest note, THANK YOU. You guys are wonderful.
posted by soakimbo at 10:15 PM on June 12, 2017
posted by soakimbo at 10:15 PM on June 12, 2017
I'd guess that the "little red flags" were put there by the surveyor.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:47 AM on June 13, 2017
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:47 AM on June 13, 2017
After reading your update I'd say that you definitely need to talk to a surveyor who understands adverse possession in your legal jurisdiction. At 50 years of occupancy I'd say that it is now well and truly legally occupied by your parents (not necessarily theirs, they are not always the same thing), but this can get complicated quickly and you need professional advice.
I've seen a lot of surveys and a lot of titles and to be honest I don't know if I've ever seen them line up perfectly, fences and buildings are universally always a bit off (or sometimes a lot). I know a fair bit about how to deal with that here, but even here I'd get advice in this case.
posted by deadwax at 4:20 AM on June 15, 2017
I've seen a lot of surveys and a lot of titles and to be honest I don't know if I've ever seen them line up perfectly, fences and buildings are universally always a bit off (or sometimes a lot). I know a fair bit about how to deal with that here, but even here I'd get advice in this case.
posted by deadwax at 4:20 AM on June 15, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
Get the survey done, now. Seriously, Monday morning. And then get a real property lawyer to write a cease and desist letter.
posted by vignettist at 9:21 PM on June 9, 2017 [60 favorites]