How to move cross country without kicking yourself later
June 5, 2017 11:16 PM   Subscribe

Partner and I are trying to move from Chicago to SF/the Bay Area without making too many costly noob mistakes

I just got a job offer in the Bay Area. I have about $4000 in the bank (just out of grad school) plus another paycheck or so on the way plus a $6000 relocation bonus and two weeks of transitional housing. The job starts in mid-July; as of later this week, I will have nothing going on (no job, classes) until then except visiting my family for some length of time (TBD) in the interim. Partner is working part-time until the move and is broker than me (grad school strikes again). He has $0 savings.

We have changed our minds several times about the best way to do this move. We have several pieces of decent furniture (leather chair, stuff like that) plus some furniture that was a recent gift (desks, bar chairs, etc.). They are nice but not "valuable" nice; middle class suburbs nice. We had originally planned to ship our stuff, furniture and all, using a U-Haul pod. But when we started looking at the money we have available for the move it started to look more and more remote a possibility. So we've been trying to sell the furniture; so far no success. But I'm going to keep trying. Otherwise, we'll try to find someone in his family to take it; failing that we'll donate or dump it. We'll have to buy a bed there anyway, our current bed is in very poor condition. It does feel shitty to dump nice new or like-new furniture that we will have to replace, but I'm also pretty stressed about managing it.

Additionally, looking for an apartment in the Bay Area is rough; we had thought about using the transitional housing early on to nail down a place, then come back to Chicago to pack and ship, then go ahead and move. But right now that means $900 in plane tickets to get to and from SF just once and once again what sounded like a good idea at first now sounds too expensive. We figure it's not unlikely that most of the relocation bonus will go to first months rent/a security deposit leaving not too much for airfare and shipping.

What I kind of wish at the moment is that we could pack the things we don't want to dump (kitchen appliances, clothes, keepsakes), ship them to SF to be held somewhere, then take the transitional housing around the time of my start date so we only have to fly out once. Is there any way to do something like that that isn't really spendy? Or should we just buy some big luggage, fly the stuff we want to my parents' for the visit (checked bags), then check them again on the flight to SF? I'm hoping to downsize enough that this is feasible (I am the anal expulsive, live-out-of-a-suitcase type, partner is the packrat... I hate to break his heart, but weeee're broke.)

Another option would be to live for the first few months to a year in more temporary housing, avoiding the $6000 in security deposit/first month's rent problem. Maybe an AirBNB (short term) or a sublet (longer term)? Are either of those a bad idea on our budget? Are we likely to find a sublet that won't still charge us security deposit etc.?

I would also be down to rent sight unseen from a reliable source (company, whatever) if I could get genuinely trustworthy recommends from people in the area. I have gotten a couple tips but nothing I can totally trust yet. Recommendations for places "in Silicon Valley" (sorry to be vague) are welcome even if you're not sure they're applicable.

I think a lot of these questions could be solved with a little more research but unfortunately we're both swamped until later this week and could really use some cooler heads telling us what worked for them, or just general wisdom about cross-country moves.
posted by stoneandstar to Work & Money (24 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
What's your rent budget? The tighter your budget, the more competitive it is to get housing, the more time you'll need to be here.
posted by salvia at 11:53 PM on June 5, 2017

It seems like money is the problem. Is it too late to negotiate for more of a signing bonus, and would your families be willing to spot you for the very short period of time between your large expenditure of 1st month's rent / deposit and first paycheck?

I did my East Coast --> Seattle move by having my mom Amtrak-pallet me seven boxes of various household good and picking it up from the train depot, and sleeping on friends' couches in the meantime. I bought a full set of IKEA furniture (+ goodwill), went into credit card debt for the first time in my life, etc;

It's definitely possible to 'work' Craigslist hard enough that you get an apartment within your first weekend of looking, based on someone hired at the same time as me, but I don't know what her budget was. Again, this becomes easier once you have more $ to throw at it.
posted by batter_my_heart at 12:13 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

Can you rent a van and drive your smaller stuff out to the Bay area together. I am assuming you own no vehicles. This way you avoid airfare and shipping costs for your kitchen stuff etc. Most grad students I know move this way, even coast to coast. It can be a decently fun road trip as well.
posted by Kalmya at 12:14 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: My rent budget is 2500-3000 (that's pushing it a little to account for the market, but it's safe).

Unfortunately no chance of a larger signing bonus and our parents don't have the money to spot us.

Our only local contacts are partner's family, who are unreliable and resistant to things like holding our stuff and shipping it for us (even if we paid the cost once getting there).

Not resistant to the idea of renting a van-- how does that work? You pick it up at your origin and return it at your destination? I seem to remember there is a fee for that but not how much.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:25 AM on June 6, 2017

If it's really more stress than it's worth, dump the stuff. It's just stuff. That said, if you can afford it you can totally ship a Uhaul box to a storage facility in your destination area and pay to have it stored there until you get your housing situation settled.
posted by wierdo at 12:28 AM on June 6, 2017

Do you have any credit cards you could use? This is a case where short term debt really can be worth it. Also, when you move, will your partner be working or continuing grad school, or will they be free to spend two weeks fulltime looking for housing? If they'll be free for house hunting, I would lean towards shipping your stuff out and storing it, arriving a day or two before you start work and hoping to find something in those two weeks.

(And congrats on the job!)
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:32 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

You rent the van in Chicago and leave it in the bay area. In between you visit family and friends, preferably that live semi on your route but you could drive East and it wouldn't be a big deal. You could check uhaul or a traditional car rental place for rates.
posted by Kalmya at 12:34 AM on June 6, 2017

Also, estimates that having them ship one cube (about a 1bed apartment of stuff) would be ~$2500, plus $125 to store it for a month for you. Possibly some extra costs in there as I've never used them, but it could be a good option for you.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:37 AM on June 6, 2017 [2 favorites]

Also, could you rent a room in an apartmemt for a few months to look for a good place/maybe partner can find a job. A traditional roommate situation may come with low/no security deposit and cheaper rent. This way you may also have a better idea of the area. I know you have finished school and have gotten a gold job, but renting a room may allow you a bit of financial buffer. Although you may need a storage unit.
posted by Kalmya at 1:03 AM on June 6, 2017

I did this move recently and pretty much ended up broke for a while until my first paycheck came - it's so brutal on the finances, as you're finding out. My sympathies.

-Renting a U-Haul with you and your partner switching off driving duties might be doable, if you're both of those capabilities and mindset. Storing your stuff in a storage facility until you figure out a permanent spot. I don't think it makes much sense to dump out your stuff - you'll have to buy all this furniture again which will be much more expensive.

-I'd consider using those 2 weeks of transitional housing during the 2 weeks prior to starting work. During the non-working weeks you have I would do a whole lot of research on where you'd want to live and what neighborhoods are promising/safe and what people say about various things. And I'd monitor craigslist/padmapper/etc. daily to get an idea of markets and rental prices and potential places. The 2 weeks should be spent as a full-time job searching for places and going to as many apartment hunting appointments as you can slot in. I think 2 weeks is enough time to find a place for immediate move-in, if you've done your background research on neighborhoods and prices and etc. and can use that time efficiently and smartly, and if your mindset is "find a place that's reasonably livable" rather than "find the perfect place". I managed finding a place within 2 weeks in Oakland, fwiw. Some people will tell you it's impossible, but that hasn't been my experience. Not having much familiarity with the Bay Area would make things more difficult, however. Just don't try to do this search while you're starting out at your new job.

-If those 2 weeks prove to not be enough, an airbnb, sublet, or Extended Stay America is not a bad idea.

-If you're considering living in Oakland rather than SF, you might be able to move your rental budget down a few hundred. (I haven't looked at the market lately though)
posted by naju at 1:16 AM on June 6, 2017 [6 favorites]

Best answer: I moved at the end of last year from the east to the west coast. I ended up hoarding my savings and using a credit card for the hotels, meals, and gas required for my move. I slowly paid off the balance and I preferred doing that over being vulnerable and spending a big chunk of my liquid account balances. I did not move my furniture- it was similar to what you are describing, mine was middle class nice, but it was my 'first stuff' that I'd purchased at the age of 18, 19 and it didn't seem worth the hassle of moving. I also needed to bring my car, and I didn't feel like learning how to tow that behind a U haul. I ended up mailing myself 5 large boxes of my clothes, shoes, and all the small expensive items I wanted to keep. That ran me about $40 a box to ship with USPS, but it would have cost me $500-$1,000 to replace the contents of each box so it was well worth it. You can shop around for pricing with Fedex, UPS, USPS, etc. once your boxes are packed. I drove with my computers and gadgets in my trunk (bringing them into my hotel rooms each night with the hotel-provided dollies so they wouldn't get swiped in the event of a car break-in), and left the rest of my stuff behind with family. Don't leave anything of value in your car overnight, thieves know people moving across the country and vacationers are staying in freeway-side hotels, they look for that kind of thing. If your car looks empty, they typically won't target yours. That includes emptying the console of change.

Something that's noteworthy, and that needs to be in the pre-move budget, is an emergency car repair allocation. In the event that you need a major repair in the middle of your trip, you don't want to be strapped. In addition to that, a good AAA subscription, or some other roadside assistance subscription. I purchased the longest tow subscription with AAA, which is 200 miles for a one-way tow. This was important to me because I was concerned about breaking down in the middle of nowhere, and if that happened I wanted to be towed as far as I wanted to get to either a dealership or a shop with good reviews, instead of taking whatever I could get locally. Tows of 50+ miles can be astronomically expensive depending on the time of day and day of the week, and AAA will send someone to you regardless of when it is and where you are, no questions asked. They'll also come to your rescue 24/7 365 for flats, lock-outs, running out of gas, needing a jump, etc. I think that is essential insurance to have when you're about to drive that far. I was also able to save money on hotels along my route with the AAA discount. I stayed in La Quintas, which are no-hassle-pet-friendly, and they were in every state I drove through. They were all very clean and recently renovated. Something I did was check TripAdvisor for reviews first, of each hotel I planned on staying in, and I was able to adjust my city stops based on this. I made sure all of the hotels had excellent reviews and no bed bug nightmare reviews. It's easy to stop in city A instead of city B if city A has the better hotel. So make sure to do your research.

Things to consider:

•Make a check-list. Don't forget to do important things like set up travel notifications for your credit/debit cards so they don't freeze on you in the middle of your trip leaving you stranded. Also, bring some cash. Always have cash. You can also purchase a OneVanilla Visa debit card from Walgreens and load it with up to $500 in cash as a back up card in the event that you lose yours or it becomes frozen. You can change the zip code on the OneVanilla website as you travel, I accessed it from my phone. You can also make online purchases with it and the money on it is good forever so you can use it for paying bills in the future or groceries, etc. if you don't end up needing it on the road.

•Car repairs now, not on the road. Make sure your car is in good working condition and that your tires can handle all that driving. If your tires are old and you've been meaning to replace them, now is the time. I was able to buy insurance for my new tires before I moved, so in the event that I did get a flat or multiple flats, I would get 'free' replacements. Discount Tire had the best price and they are in most states.

•Get an oil change right before you leave

•Get an oil change when you arrive in your new state

•Pay attention to tollways. I didn't know what I was doing near Chicago and ended up dealing with the hassle of an out of state toll bill for $1.50 lol. I've never been through so many tolls in my life. I swear it was like $5 every 10 miles for a while there. I was not expecting that or the chaos of the traffic. I also almost got into the wrong lane numerous times while passing through said tolls. So be prepared for any tollways you may be passing through. Even some of the on ramps have little mini toll booths in heavily tolled areas. It's a nightmare. So have cash ready to grab, singles and 5's are a good idea. So are quarters. Have them handy so you're not scrambling while you're trying to stay safe while driving. I would say you need at least $50 in petty cash, small bills to be safe if it's a heavily tolled area unless you plan on using a card (I don't know if toll booths even accept cards since I didn't use one, they must right? Better to check).

•Make sure you have plenty of snacks in the car, along with lots of water. You'll save money on meals if you graze on pre-bought healthy snacks. If you end up stranded, worst case scenario, you'll need both too. Blankets and flashlights are also a good idea.

•Think about getting some maps. You can typically purchase local and state maps at gas stations along your route, so if your phone dies or the nav stops working, you can get to your next stop with a good old fashioned map.

•Have a basic emergency kit with some Betadine (unless you're allergic to seafood/iodine), small bandages, large bandages, and whatever else you might want in the event of a small injury. I ended up cutting my finger on the road and cleaned it out at a rest stop with a fresh bottle of water, my Betadine, and then I put a thick bandage over it and I was good.

•Bring some toilet paper! It sounds funny but you don't want to end up in a stall at a rest stop and it's missing TP. Also bring bathroom wipes to keep fresh if you'd like. I like the idea of a little bottle of hand sanitizer too
posted by Avosunspin at 2:14 AM on June 6, 2017 [13 favorites]

We moved to the Bay Area and lived there for eight years. Dump as much stuff as you can. Put yourself in the mindset of living like a monk--living simply. There is no space to keep anything out there unless you are a Google bazillionaire.

Having said that, once you dump your stuff (Goodwill, ARC, garage sale) keep the rest of it in a Pack Rat. They are a PODS competitor. I've used both and can NOT recommend PODS. Their containers are inferior along with their support and coordination. Pack Rat is much better.

We moved 7 times in the 8 years plus one in the Bay Area. We've explored the financial spectrum of moving. Pack Rat seems to be the best sweet spot of money and value.

Oh and as far as living in the Bay Area goes, stay away from East Palo Alto. Trust me. It ain't worth it.
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 4:02 AM on June 6, 2017 [4 favorites]

I had two very good experiences with upack/abf, albeit several years ago.

You can ship books cheaper as media mail.
posted by Dashy at 5:18 AM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]

I did a cross-country move a while back. I didn't have a ton of time or help, so I had Junk Luggers haul away my furniture and anything else I didn't know what to do with, knowing that they would recycle or donate whatever could be recycled or donated.
posted by bunderful at 5:31 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

I've done a cross-country move twice in the past year and a half, albeit with way more stuff than you. Both times the relocation money was in the form of reimbursement for moving expenses that qualify per the IRS -- obviously I don't know your situation but do make double-sure that that relo bonus is free and clear with no strings. Mine would not have been able to be used for housing deposits etc.

If you do decide to take your stuff with you, ABF ( was great both times -- $2500 seems high to me, I just did a 4-bedroom house move for $3K - we have a LOT of stuff. The nice thing about ABF is they make the storage easy, so your stuff is out of the way until you have a place to put it. This is a big advantage over a U-Haul which only works if you have a place to put things as soon as you get there.

Driving out and finding housing while you're in the temp housing is the way to go -- don't go back and forth, that's a waste of time and money.

Bay Area is super-spendy so other people can speak to the feasibility of doing the move on the budget you've got -- that sounds really tight to me though.

Good luck!!
posted by rabbitrabbit at 5:50 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

I can't give too much advice about the move itself (I shipped my college stuff via USPS and flew out with checked bags), but can reassure you that you'll most likely be able to find a rental in a short amount of time.

I would be careful to put aside enough cash for security deposit + first month rent.

If you can, start trolling Craigslist now, figure out neighborhoods you can afford and work for you from a transportation perspective, and collect links full of larger property management websites. This is to help educate yourself on what looks like a good deal, so that when you're in the Bay, you'll be able to pull up the listings one or two days ahead, schedule showings or drop by open houses (early!!) and be ready to put down your application check after viewing the place in 10 minutes. Seriously. I've rented three places within a single weekend of actual viewings in the last several years in various parts of the Bay because I stalked Craigslist, got to showings or my appointment early, and was prepared to make a decision right then and there -- take my application now, I don't care if it's five minutes into open house and two other couples are wandering around, I'm ready!! It's doable, you just need to know what you want (cough, can tolerate; cough, what you absolutely must have like access to public transportation) and what you can afford.

The property management links will be your back up since the larger properties generally always have some kind of availability that you can inquire about closer to the date.

Good luck. You can do it. And once you start trolling Craigslist, you can decide if you will likely end up in a place that can actually fit your furniture or not. I see a lot of listings of furniture up for sale because the new rental won't fit it anymore.
posted by ellerhodes at 6:10 AM on June 6, 2017

Best answer: We've had relocation money work both ways -- once restricted to specific reimbursable expenses, and other times paid as a lump sum that is basically like a starting bonus. Make sure to check which is the case, and also check for details like taxes -- are you actually getting the full $6k on which you will pay taxes later, or are you getting $6k minus some amount of tax withholding? At the end of the year it is the same, but in the short term there is a big difference to your budgeting.

The last two moves that we did, the cost of hiring movers (to pack, load, and transport the stuff) was barely more than the quotes I got for the pod options -- this may have changed and those may be much cheaper now, but I'd at least make sure to check options. And you can have things shipped directly to a storage facility if that is what you need while living transitionally.

But that said, I am of the opinion that the smart option is to get rid of stuff to the maximum extent possible, especially if you are not talking about family heirlooms or crazy expensive furniture. You can refit a house from Ikea for cheap (or, as you have seen, from used furniture that basically has no value these days), and a lot of furniture just isn't worth the trouble and expense of moving.

Our last two moves, we found that the easiest way to deal with housing was to rent an apartment in one of those anonymous corporate-managed apartment complexes that you see near freeway exits. They are easy to arrange on short notice, tend to be managed and maintained reasonably well, and are acceptable for six months or a year while you look for something better. I don't know if that is an option where you are looking and on your budget, but if so it is something to consider.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:19 AM on June 6, 2017

I chose Uhaul because they gave us the best deal, and because they work on the weekends. Neither Upack nor Pods will deliver or pick up the pod on the weekends. Uhaul was also cheaper (make sure you shop using the incognito window) and so the total cost was around $2500 including a person who picked up, loaded/unloaded, and dropped off the pod on each end. (SF to NYC) Uhaul can also store the pod at either end if you don't have a delivery address. So you can pack the pod with the stuff you want to keep, send it to storage, fly to SF to get housing, and then summon the pod when you want it, so there's no issue with flying back and forth to get stuff out of storage.

One thing to know in SF is that you have to get a temporary no-parking zone permit a month in advance of parking anything large on the street-- it's around $100 and you need to book in advance. Generally you don't need one if you will be backing into a driveway, but if all you have is metered and street parking, you really need the temp sign so you can avoid both tickets and having to circle the block with the pod for an hour. If you go with a company that doesn't pick up on weekends or can't pick up same-day, you will need the permit so you don't get fined or have your pod towed. Another reason to make sure your stuff gets picked up same-day is that the pod will get graffitied if you leave it out overnight, which you will have to pay for. For some reason, this is the best guide to getting that permit.

I would: get rid of stuff, order pod, get rid of stuff, pack pod and send it to storage, get rid of the rest of the your stuff, fly to transitional housing, look for an apartment, get an apartment, summon pod, relax in your new home.
posted by blnkfrnk at 7:39 AM on June 6, 2017

There are quite a few 'pod' services out there, and their price vary quite a bit. I've used both ABF-Upack (stronger, metal pods, when we checked they were cheaper than Uhaul or PODS), and Door-To-Door (which, apparently looks like it is now owned by Uhaul...), both for Oregon to Maine moves, and the reverse. Calling them directly will get you a better price, especially if you mention you're getting quotes from a bunch of cube services. These are great because for a really nominal fee, they'll hold the cubes for you and deliver them when you land in a place. We always went with cubes, because everything else seemed too expensive, and we had furniture in the same quality arena as you did. We were happy to take the hit on shipping if it meant not having to re-buy everything (and even our rough calculations on getting cheaper stuff to replace everything was usually a wash...especially when it came to beds and couches).

It's been my experience that those Pods are so large, that if you're remotely good at tetris, you can fit an inordinate amount of stuff in them. Anything awkwardly bulky (desks, tables, things with legs that can't be broken down) should probably be left behind. But you can easily fit a 1br apartment's worth of stuff in there, as long as you don't have like a full 1950's dining set, credenza, hutch, etc. If you can thin that out a bit, you'll have plenty of room. It helped me to actually tape off the inside dimensions of the cube on our floor and wall with painter's tape to see how much stuff you can realistically stack inside. Its alot of stuff.

It sounds like the whole SF metro area will be a pain with dropping the pod off, so you might want to explore breaking it down at whoever's facility is storing it. I don't know if this advice will hold since door-to-door is now Uhaul, but there was a not-so-insignificant price reduction for us because we unloaded the pod at their facility into a borrowed truck. Basically, our pod got shipped from Portland to Boston, and then we had to unload it into a truck to take to Maine. t was kind of a pain in the ass time-and-effort-wise, but it saved us enough money that we could've easily rented a truck and still come out ahead. These places charge quite a bit for that 'last mile' service from their depot to your house. Any permits and fees will likely be added onto your account one way or another.

Basically, 2nding what blnkfrnk says. That's a good breakdown, and a relatively stress free one. I'd just alter the 'summon pod' portion to be 'unpack pod at depot, shuttle to apartment'
posted by furnace.heart at 8:01 AM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

I did this move a couple of years ago. The biggest question is the furniture. We looked at pictures etc, but our stuff was junky and the prices seemed higher than replacement cost. We wanted to replace our furniture anyways, so we sold it all and shipped almost everything else Amtrak. I would highly recommend them. We had around 13 boxes (1 bedroom) weighing hundreds of pounds that ended up costing ~$200, or even a bit less; it was 1/4 the cost of ups on a per pound basis. By contrast, the 4 boxes we shipped UPS cost about the same and got there a day later.

There is some stuff you're not allowed to ship Amtrak. After looking around online, we mostly ignored them and no one checked. There were some more valuable small appliances that we decided not to risk though. And media mail was still much cheaper for books.

One downside to Amtrak is you have to take stuff to and from the station, so factor in the cost of a sub/van rental.

Greyhound has a similar option with door to door service. However, they didn't do stairs (you had to have an elevator or bring your boxes to the ground floor), so we didn't use them.

I'd say that if you value your stuff + have of replacement at $2000 or more, a pod is probably worth it, but that otherwise you can probably get away with just shipping boxes.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2017

Response by poster: Thanks, everyone! I should also mention that I personally have no problem with living temporarily with roomate(s), but since it's me and my partner, most places don't want to share with a couple. The other options are him staying behind until I find a real place (undesirable) or both of us finding a roommate situation, which would be awkward and probably also expensive!
posted by stoneandstar at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2017

Response by poster: We are leaning toward renting "sight unseen" a corporate-managed apartment at the mid-to-high end of our rent window, and then either FedExing our small stuff or renting a van to bring it across the country. This feels a lot less stressful than packing/managing/shipping a bunch of furniture we're not particularly attached to. We can prioritize buying bedroom furniture first, and fill the rest out later-- the apartment will be small anyway, so it's hard to care too much.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:13 PM on June 6, 2017 [3 favorites]

Best answer: I've plugged this several times on the green and I think it's changed a bit since I used it in 2001 but check out Amtrak cargo.

I moved from Massachusetts to San Francisco and I think it was about 35 cents/pound. There are restrictions on what you can ship and the shipping takes 2-3 weeks, but if you're waiting to move in some place that can be really helpful.

Edited to remove suggestion of traveling on Amtrak - I thought you were in PHX. Coming from Chicago it's not a bargain.
posted by bendy at 10:47 PM on June 6, 2017

One detail I will add -- I think the hesitance around couple-as-roommates is way lower in the Bay Area than other places, just because it is SO FREAKING EXPENSIVE. When I lived there, I lived for several years in a big multi-person house with at least a few rotating couples, and my now-husband/then-boyfriend lived with a couple for a few years. And also, it's not just students who live with roommates -- most people I know who are teachers, non-tech young professionals, etc. live with roommates at least for a little while. Anyway, point being that I think housing is just so insane in the Bay Area that roommate culture in general is just much more normal, both for people out of school and for couples.

I would also definitely check the details on your relocation expenses. The last time I had moving expenses, there were really strict limits on what it could be spent on -- basically it was only on the things that the IRS deems moving expenses (so rent and security deposit would NOT apply). If this is the case for you, you really might as well spend the money on a moving pod and move your stuff rather than selling/rebuying. If the funds aren't limited to IRS-approved expenses, you will almost certainly be taxed on them -- we had one category of moving expense that we thought would count but ended up not counting, and so my company did reimburse it in the end, but we were taxed on that amount. Anyway, be careful not to count on the full $6K if taxes will come into play.
posted by rainbowbrite at 3:51 PM on June 7, 2017

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