How do you learn to trust men?
June 2, 2017 7:32 AM Subscribe
How, as a woman, do you learn to trust men, within the context of romantic and sexual relationships, particularly if you have a history of trauma or boundary-pushing behavior from them?
I'm a 27-year old bisexual woman and I've never had a long-term relationship with a guy. My most significant romantic relationship so far has been a long, on-and-off relationship with a girl I really loved through the latter half of college and a few years afterwards. I've been making efforts to date men since that relationship ended, mostly through dating apps and sites but also, just people I meet in real life but my relationships seem to never last past a month or two.
By observing my patterns, I've discovered that it's because I really don't trust men in a romantic or sexual context. I have no problem with male co-workers, have a great relationship with my brother and have a number of close (queer) male friends but whenever a man expresses romantic interest in me, I feel a lot of fear and eventually, resentment, even revulsion.
The context here is that I was date raped when I was 19, not long after I first lost my virginity (to a different guy) and that's framed a lot of my attitudes towards sex. I was also raised in an extremely conservative immigrant household and didn't really have any social relationships with boys who weren't family before college. When I was in college, I had a period of rebellious promiscuity but that mostly stopped after my assault, as being alone with men who wanted to have sex with me started to become very frightening and anxiety-provoking for me.
My consistent pattern is that I go on a few dates with a guy, like him, everything goes fine and then, once things go into a more overtly sexual direction, I feel a growing resentment. Usually, I break it off at that point but sometimes, when the guy is really good on paper and seems like a nice person, I sleep with him and often, find I feel an actual physical revulsion afterwards. I feel really bad for feeling this way. I think it's hard for me to believe that men are not trying to sexually exploit women. However, I know this is a cognitive distortion and unfair and uncharitable, so I try to make myself sexually available anyway. And it doesn't work out.
A few added wrinkles: I have mild vaginismus (a pelvic pain condition, related to anxiety, which often makes penetrative sex painful or difficult), which I think is connected to my sexual assault, so sex has often been pretty painful for me. I only recently realized I have this condition and have been going to a physical therapist to deal with it. Even the discovery that sex is not always supposed to be painful for women has been kind of a surprise for me.
Second, I know reading this over, that the rape sounds like the big, obvious reason for all my issues but it did happen eight years ago and I have gone to therapy for it and am currently in therapy. My therapist doesn't really get why this is such a problem for me. My sexual assault was just one event but I feel like I see signs everywhere I look that confirm the beliefs that it sort of left me with about men at 19: ugly messages I get on dating apps, comments on the street, news stories I hear about men exploiting or abusing women (and one of the getting elected President!). I want so badly to believe that what happened to me once was just something one guy did to one girl but I feel like the culture is almost trying to keep me from reaching that conclusion, as I receive these constant signals that this is how men feel about women.
How do I keep these constant signals, on top of my own life story (not just my own rape--I have several close friends who have also been raped: just last year, I gave a statement to a detective to provide evidence for a friend of mine who'd been assaulted by a guy she met on a dating app and my college girlfriend was raped as well when we were both in college and I was there for her through her healing process and my mother is a survivor of sexual abuse and I'm the only person she's ever told) affect how I relate to men? We all live in a culture that's often pretty shitty for women but I seem to be the only one who can't get over that enough to view men as individuals, not people trying to hurt me.
I'm a 27-year old bisexual woman and I've never had a long-term relationship with a guy. My most significant romantic relationship so far has been a long, on-and-off relationship with a girl I really loved through the latter half of college and a few years afterwards. I've been making efforts to date men since that relationship ended, mostly through dating apps and sites but also, just people I meet in real life but my relationships seem to never last past a month or two.
By observing my patterns, I've discovered that it's because I really don't trust men in a romantic or sexual context. I have no problem with male co-workers, have a great relationship with my brother and have a number of close (queer) male friends but whenever a man expresses romantic interest in me, I feel a lot of fear and eventually, resentment, even revulsion.
The context here is that I was date raped when I was 19, not long after I first lost my virginity (to a different guy) and that's framed a lot of my attitudes towards sex. I was also raised in an extremely conservative immigrant household and didn't really have any social relationships with boys who weren't family before college. When I was in college, I had a period of rebellious promiscuity but that mostly stopped after my assault, as being alone with men who wanted to have sex with me started to become very frightening and anxiety-provoking for me.
My consistent pattern is that I go on a few dates with a guy, like him, everything goes fine and then, once things go into a more overtly sexual direction, I feel a growing resentment. Usually, I break it off at that point but sometimes, when the guy is really good on paper and seems like a nice person, I sleep with him and often, find I feel an actual physical revulsion afterwards. I feel really bad for feeling this way. I think it's hard for me to believe that men are not trying to sexually exploit women. However, I know this is a cognitive distortion and unfair and uncharitable, so I try to make myself sexually available anyway. And it doesn't work out.
A few added wrinkles: I have mild vaginismus (a pelvic pain condition, related to anxiety, which often makes penetrative sex painful or difficult), which I think is connected to my sexual assault, so sex has often been pretty painful for me. I only recently realized I have this condition and have been going to a physical therapist to deal with it. Even the discovery that sex is not always supposed to be painful for women has been kind of a surprise for me.
Second, I know reading this over, that the rape sounds like the big, obvious reason for all my issues but it did happen eight years ago and I have gone to therapy for it and am currently in therapy. My therapist doesn't really get why this is such a problem for me. My sexual assault was just one event but I feel like I see signs everywhere I look that confirm the beliefs that it sort of left me with about men at 19: ugly messages I get on dating apps, comments on the street, news stories I hear about men exploiting or abusing women (and one of the getting elected President!). I want so badly to believe that what happened to me once was just something one guy did to one girl but I feel like the culture is almost trying to keep me from reaching that conclusion, as I receive these constant signals that this is how men feel about women.
How do I keep these constant signals, on top of my own life story (not just my own rape--I have several close friends who have also been raped: just last year, I gave a statement to a detective to provide evidence for a friend of mine who'd been assaulted by a guy she met on a dating app and my college girlfriend was raped as well when we were both in college and I was there for her through her healing process and my mother is a survivor of sexual abuse and I'm the only person she's ever told) affect how I relate to men? We all live in a culture that's often pretty shitty for women but I seem to be the only one who can't get over that enough to view men as individuals, not people trying to hurt me.
First of all I think this requires more help than you're going to get here, and I think you might need a different therapist.
As to what has worked for me. I have a trusting and happy marriage to one man who's earned my trust over years. To be honest I think of him as a radical exception to the mainstream. I know a handful of other superb men who I also think of as exceptional. But you're not wrong about what mainstream sexual culture is.
I think maybe the only thing to do is to be very careful who you hang out with. Cultivate friendships with people who are either decent, respectful men or women with decent, respectful men around them. Insist on it. Don't stay involved in social circles where sexually entitled male behavior is tolerated, by men or women. My experience is that birds of a feather really do flock together. Being choosy in this way should, over time, raise the likelihood that the people you come into contact with are decent, and your internal standards will be higher and easier to trust.
(and as posted above commented, it's ok not to date men!)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:43 AM on June 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
As to what has worked for me. I have a trusting and happy marriage to one man who's earned my trust over years. To be honest I think of him as a radical exception to the mainstream. I know a handful of other superb men who I also think of as exceptional. But you're not wrong about what mainstream sexual culture is.
I think maybe the only thing to do is to be very careful who you hang out with. Cultivate friendships with people who are either decent, respectful men or women with decent, respectful men around them. Insist on it. Don't stay involved in social circles where sexually entitled male behavior is tolerated, by men or women. My experience is that birds of a feather really do flock together. Being choosy in this way should, over time, raise the likelihood that the people you come into contact with are decent, and your internal standards will be higher and easier to trust.
(and as posted above commented, it's ok not to date men!)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:43 AM on June 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
As a bi/pan woman who's been married to a (lovely) man for many years and so hasn't had to think too hard about this and now realizes that, deity forbid, should I ever be single again I would likely never date a man again because...society, basically...I agree maybe this just isn't a thing that works for you right now or ever or until the world is less gross.
It's not just you, those signals are a real thing and they should be dealbreakers when you encounter them in individual men, and you shouldn't be talking yourself out of noticing and feeling your feelings. You are not the only one who feels this way more than ever right now, either. (Pretty much all my middle-aged queer ladyfriends share my sentiments.) If nothing else, maybe at least take a break from men for a while, maybe shake up your therapeutic approach as well, and see how you feel in a few years.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:50 AM on June 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's not just you, those signals are a real thing and they should be dealbreakers when you encounter them in individual men, and you shouldn't be talking yourself out of noticing and feeling your feelings. You are not the only one who feels this way more than ever right now, either. (Pretty much all my middle-aged queer ladyfriends share my sentiments.) If nothing else, maybe at least take a break from men for a while, maybe shake up your therapeutic approach as well, and see how you feel in a few years.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:50 AM on June 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
As a queer gal myself, why push yourself to date men if you can be happy with women? I know that men are a ton more available, but quantity is not the same as quality. It's okay to focus your romantic life on women, and it's okay to give yourself time to decide whether this is worth putting a bunch of time and energy into. I don't mean to be dismissive here, but if you're happy with women, why waste time making yourself physically and psychologically uncomfortable with men?
posted by bile and syntax at 7:55 AM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 7:55 AM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
You don't owe anybody sex, ever. As said above, you also don't have to date men if you don't want to. However, you asked about it, so... I'd say stop having sex with men. I see a lot of people (men and women, both good people and bad) having sex very early in new relationships. I think modern culture espouses a pro sex, get physical quickly kind of relationship style.
And this sounds like it does not work out for you at all. Which is a perfectly normal and acceptable style too. It's ok to delay sex till more than a few dates or even a few months of many dates. Figure out your boundaries about sex and physical intimacy. Stick with them! Good men will respect them.
I wouldn't ever want a partner who is trying to force herself to be available for sex. I want a partner who is happy to be there, fully consenting, and will find joy in us being together.
You've expressed many complicated feelings about sex, from very many valid sources. Let your feelings and needs be heard. It's ok to be bi or gay or asexual or to go really slow. Its ok to be hurt and angry by your experiences, the culture, your fears and pains.
Honestly, I say stop dating for a while and really work on you. Probably with a different therapist (they are not all the same!) there are ways to screen out bad males, but it very much sounds to me like you are unsure about your wants, needs, and emotions. Find and maintain your boundaries. Listen to yourself and take the time to ask yourself the deep questions.
posted by Jacen at 8:13 AM on June 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
And this sounds like it does not work out for you at all. Which is a perfectly normal and acceptable style too. It's ok to delay sex till more than a few dates or even a few months of many dates. Figure out your boundaries about sex and physical intimacy. Stick with them! Good men will respect them.
I wouldn't ever want a partner who is trying to force herself to be available for sex. I want a partner who is happy to be there, fully consenting, and will find joy in us being together.
You've expressed many complicated feelings about sex, from very many valid sources. Let your feelings and needs be heard. It's ok to be bi or gay or asexual or to go really slow. Its ok to be hurt and angry by your experiences, the culture, your fears and pains.
Honestly, I say stop dating for a while and really work on you. Probably with a different therapist (they are not all the same!) there are ways to screen out bad males, but it very much sounds to me like you are unsure about your wants, needs, and emotions. Find and maintain your boundaries. Listen to yourself and take the time to ask yourself the deep questions.
posted by Jacen at 8:13 AM on June 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
My therapist doesn't really get why this is such a problem for me.
WTF. Get a better therapist.
You experienced a significant trauma. Doesn't matter if it happened decades ago, it can still affect you. Trauma is like that. It's not "just one event" - please don't minimize the seriousness of what happened to you. And yes, we do live in a rape culture and it can be really disheartening. Seriously though, get a therapist that understands this, and who understands trauma (IANAT). Please be gentle with yourself and I also agree with the advice to just take a break for yourself.
posted by foxjacket at 8:32 AM on June 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
WTF. Get a better therapist.
You experienced a significant trauma. Doesn't matter if it happened decades ago, it can still affect you. Trauma is like that. It's not "just one event" - please don't minimize the seriousness of what happened to you. And yes, we do live in a rape culture and it can be really disheartening. Seriously though, get a therapist that understands this, and who understands trauma (IANAT). Please be gentle with yourself and I also agree with the advice to just take a break for yourself.
posted by foxjacket at 8:32 AM on June 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
I agree that being strong in your own boundaries will help. The last time I dated, I told the guy two things: one, that I'm not dating anyone without the goal of marriage, and I'm not having sex until we are in a committed relationship. I have had poor/no boundaries most of my life, so this was kind of a big deal to me. But it was empowering. And it was my truth. Staying strong with my own boundaries kept me from waffling and allowing myself to get pushed into an intimacy I wasn't ready for.
And, yes, new therapist.
posted by Vaike at 8:53 AM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
And, yes, new therapist.
posted by Vaike at 8:53 AM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nthing new therapist. If something is a big deal to you, you shouldn't ever feel like your therapist is dismissive of it. Trauma is a big deal, it continues to affect us in unexpected ways over the years--I've always thought of it like ripples in a pond. Initially there's a lot of turbulence, but then things calm down... for a while, until the next ripple hits you and you have to deal with it. They space out over time, but you continue to experience the long-term effects trauma for a while.
I also want to suggest that if you do want to date men (and like everyone else said, don't feel like you have to!), that you try meeting them through other avenues than online dating. Online dating is great for ease of access/ability to meet lots of people, but it definitely doesn't give you the time to get to know someone in a non-romantic context. I think either dating amongst your wider friend circle or cultivating hobbies where you can spend times in groups with men might be helpful for you, because you can figure out if they are trustworthy first without having to worry about dating/sex timelines. My (male) partner and I (queer female) worked on a collaborative art project all summer some years ago before I asked him out, so I got to see how he interacted with other people and me first. And he even suggested hanging out in a (smaller) group context when I did ask him out, which he told me later was because he likes to see how people treat others before spending time with them one-on-one. He told me that of course people act nice when they're out on a date with you, but watching how they act when they aren't trying to impress you is really useful information. At the time, I thought he was just dense and didn't realize I was asking him on a date! But in retrospect I like his approach and think it might be helpful for you, too.
posted by Illuminated Clocks at 9:08 AM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I also want to suggest that if you do want to date men (and like everyone else said, don't feel like you have to!), that you try meeting them through other avenues than online dating. Online dating is great for ease of access/ability to meet lots of people, but it definitely doesn't give you the time to get to know someone in a non-romantic context. I think either dating amongst your wider friend circle or cultivating hobbies where you can spend times in groups with men might be helpful for you, because you can figure out if they are trustworthy first without having to worry about dating/sex timelines. My (male) partner and I (queer female) worked on a collaborative art project all summer some years ago before I asked him out, so I got to see how he interacted with other people and me first. And he even suggested hanging out in a (smaller) group context when I did ask him out, which he told me later was because he likes to see how people treat others before spending time with them one-on-one. He told me that of course people act nice when they're out on a date with you, but watching how they act when they aren't trying to impress you is really useful information. At the time, I thought he was just dense and didn't realize I was asking him on a date! But in retrospect I like his approach and think it might be helpful for you, too.
posted by Illuminated Clocks at 9:08 AM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
The way you tell who you can trust, in my experience, is by setting simple and reasonable boundaries and seeing if they respect them. You don't have to follow one specific path or timeline in order to be dating "right", but instead he should be making as many adjustments for you as you do for him. So that means you say you are not comfortable with sex yet and need to take it slower, and then you see what he does. Maybe you tell him you have some pain issues you're working with a doctor on. There do exist men who will be sympathetic, empathetic, and care about your happiness.
One way to think about it might be giving your dates a chance to surprise you for the better. If you act on the assumption they're going to be inflexible and they're only interested in sex, how would they show you otherwise? It does require trust, of a sort: Trust not in the form of letting him do whatever he wants, but trust in the form of being open about what you want.
posted by Lady Li at 9:12 AM on June 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
One way to think about it might be giving your dates a chance to surprise you for the better. If you act on the assumption they're going to be inflexible and they're only interested in sex, how would they show you otherwise? It does require trust, of a sort: Trust not in the form of letting him do whatever he wants, but trust in the form of being open about what you want.
posted by Lady Li at 9:12 AM on June 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Also, have you considered the possibility that in the specific cases you've had that reaction, you weren't being irrational? You didn't give details or numbers of how often you've had this negative reaction to men once things got sexual, but people behaving in a subtly or overtly unpleasant way at that point isn't all that unlikely. The issue might not be that you're not trusting enough, but that you're not feeling comfortable relying on your own judgment of who not to trust.
I'd be mulling over what specifically set you off, and seeing if you could figure out if it's, in retrospect, something that did make sense to you.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:32 AM on June 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'd be mulling over what specifically set you off, and seeing if you could figure out if it's, in retrospect, something that did make sense to you.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:32 AM on June 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
If you are looking for a place in which to consciously push your own boundaries, but in a place where choice is honored and "no" is heard (although sometimes we have to work to make sure we hear our own "no"s), I have recently done the first two (and the couple's) Human Awareness Institute (HAI) workshops. There's lots to unpack in those, but it is a fairly safe place to play with a lot of the sorts of feelings and experiences that you're pondering.
In particular, there's a lot of opportunity to consciously work on feelings of trust and boundaries and where you feel in relation to those things, in a situation where there's no expectation of sex and where "no" will not just get heard, there's a large social group around you who will support you in that.
posted by straw at 10:02 AM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
In particular, there's a lot of opportunity to consciously work on feelings of trust and boundaries and where you feel in relation to those things, in a situation where there's no expectation of sex and where "no" will not just get heard, there's a large social group around you who will support you in that.
posted by straw at 10:02 AM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Respectfully, and briefly, I would urge the OP to be wary of HAI and do much research before attending a workshop.
posted by minervous at 10:39 AM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by minervous at 10:39 AM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm really hearing you here. I'm a heterosexual woman with roughly the same problem. All I can do is to offer a couple tricks that are helping me deal with it.
First off: new therapist. You've heard that already. A good therapist knows that they don't get to decide what should or should not be a big deal for you, especially if a compassionate stranger can easily detect that the thing in question is in fact a big fucking deal. In my personal case, I was helped by not only getting a good therapist, but indirectly by getting one who happened to be a guy, a youngish dude. I do not suggest that you make your decision this way; I certainly didn't, I just tried the first person available. But as we worked together, it was an additional help to me to see that here was the kind of person I associated with the least levels of empathy and insight, who had gone into the business of sharing empathy and insight with other people.
Secondly: try reaching towards empathy with men through fiction or other works of art that you admire, showing decent, kind men. This is tricky, and I don't want to make a bunch of book or podcast recommendations. Certainly there are a lot of extremely unrealistic characters out there that were made largely for marketing reasons, to be admired by women. That's not what I mean. There are certain works that have made me stop and think: wait. Are there men who actually behave that well? And subsequent inquiries have shown that there are.
It's a long journey. Personally, I think the reward at the end of it is not going to be a relationship -- maybe we'll get that, maybe we won't, it's a matter of chance. The reward is going to be not having to carry so much weight of fear and bitterness and hatred towards so many other human beings.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:42 AM on June 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
First off: new therapist. You've heard that already. A good therapist knows that they don't get to decide what should or should not be a big deal for you, especially if a compassionate stranger can easily detect that the thing in question is in fact a big fucking deal. In my personal case, I was helped by not only getting a good therapist, but indirectly by getting one who happened to be a guy, a youngish dude. I do not suggest that you make your decision this way; I certainly didn't, I just tried the first person available. But as we worked together, it was an additional help to me to see that here was the kind of person I associated with the least levels of empathy and insight, who had gone into the business of sharing empathy and insight with other people.
Secondly: try reaching towards empathy with men through fiction or other works of art that you admire, showing decent, kind men. This is tricky, and I don't want to make a bunch of book or podcast recommendations. Certainly there are a lot of extremely unrealistic characters out there that were made largely for marketing reasons, to be admired by women. That's not what I mean. There are certain works that have made me stop and think: wait. Are there men who actually behave that well? And subsequent inquiries have shown that there are.
It's a long journey. Personally, I think the reward at the end of it is not going to be a relationship -- maybe we'll get that, maybe we won't, it's a matter of chance. The reward is going to be not having to carry so much weight of fear and bitterness and hatred towards so many other human beings.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:42 AM on June 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
often makes penetrative sex painful or difficult
it's a healthy and self-protective response to distrust a man after he does something painful to you. Before you can learn to trust him, you have to stop having sex that hurts you. Don't try; don't experiment the first time you feel like it might be ok; just don't do it. ('For now' - but don't put a time limit on it or give yourself any deadline pressure.) If you've slept with the women you dated and didn't have these reactions, you know how to have sex that doesn't hurt. you can do that with men -- they don't have special privileges or needs to hurt you in order to be satisfied.
. However, I know this is a cognitive distortion and unfair and uncharitable, so I try to make myself sexually available anyway. And it doesn't work out.
Your body's not a charity. it's yours and it's you. what is a cognitive distortion is forcing yourself to let someone do painful things to you in order to be fair and generous. It makes no sense to trust somebody who would respond to your availability without your desire. Your mistrust is your strongest and best instinct in a situation like that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:52 AM on June 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
it's a healthy and self-protective response to distrust a man after he does something painful to you. Before you can learn to trust him, you have to stop having sex that hurts you. Don't try; don't experiment the first time you feel like it might be ok; just don't do it. ('For now' - but don't put a time limit on it or give yourself any deadline pressure.) If you've slept with the women you dated and didn't have these reactions, you know how to have sex that doesn't hurt. you can do that with men -- they don't have special privileges or needs to hurt you in order to be satisfied.
. However, I know this is a cognitive distortion and unfair and uncharitable, so I try to make myself sexually available anyway. And it doesn't work out.
Your body's not a charity. it's yours and it's you. what is a cognitive distortion is forcing yourself to let someone do painful things to you in order to be fair and generous. It makes no sense to trust somebody who would respond to your availability without your desire. Your mistrust is your strongest and best instinct in a situation like that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:52 AM on June 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
You learn to trust some men (a lot of men are not worth trusting, ever) by first trusting yourself - by learning what your preferred boundaries are, what you know you like in sexual activity and what you might enjoy, with the right person, in the right setting, and what you definitely don't want.
And you are under no obligation whatsoever to let anyone else, no matter how you feel about them or how they feel about you, have any input at all into those three categories.
It is absolutely okay to decide, "no penetrative sex for me this year." And you can change your mind about that if you want - but you can definitely mention, at any hint of a date opportunity, "This will not result in [some forms of] sex." And any guy who responds with, "well, but... you might change your mind?" is an instant drop. (If you get a question like that, you say, "no. I will not be changing my mind on this." You are under no obligation to share your internal doubts and struggles on a first date.) You are free to avoid even casual dating with guys who think "definitely we will be having sex if we are getting along well."
And nthing the suggestion to get a new therapist. There is no deadline on trauma effects.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:00 PM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
And you are under no obligation whatsoever to let anyone else, no matter how you feel about them or how they feel about you, have any input at all into those three categories.
It is absolutely okay to decide, "no penetrative sex for me this year." And you can change your mind about that if you want - but you can definitely mention, at any hint of a date opportunity, "This will not result in [some forms of] sex." And any guy who responds with, "well, but... you might change your mind?" is an instant drop. (If you get a question like that, you say, "no. I will not be changing my mind on this." You are under no obligation to share your internal doubts and struggles on a first date.) You are free to avoid even casual dating with guys who think "definitely we will be having sex if we are getting along well."
And nthing the suggestion to get a new therapist. There is no deadline on trauma effects.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:00 PM on June 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
My girlfriend has never been in a healthy relationship before. On top of that, about ten years ago, she was raped, beaten, and stabbed by a stranger. Intimacy is a big hurdle for her but she is learning.
My therapist, Doc Awesome, told me about non-demand pleasuring. This is where we each touch each other with the explicit agreement that it won't lead to sex. She doesn't have to worry about "going to far" and not being able to handle what happens. She can stop me if she becomes uncomfortable. Of course, she can guide herself on how far she wants to go with me.
There is no timetable on this. Every week I notice improvements. She will initiate hand holding or kissing now, for example.
If you can find a guy willing to work with you on this, it might help for you, too.
posted by trinity8-director at 12:08 PM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
My therapist, Doc Awesome, told me about non-demand pleasuring. This is where we each touch each other with the explicit agreement that it won't lead to sex. She doesn't have to worry about "going to far" and not being able to handle what happens. She can stop me if she becomes uncomfortable. Of course, she can guide herself on how far she wants to go with me.
There is no timetable on this. Every week I notice improvements. She will initiate hand holding or kissing now, for example.
If you can find a guy willing to work with you on this, it might help for you, too.
posted by trinity8-director at 12:08 PM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is mistrust really what you're feeling? Smoldering resentment and physical revulsion don't sound much like mistrust -- but more like you are very much not attracted to these men despite them being nice and good on paper. Try to figure out what it is you really want and then go after that thing. (Which is not to say that nice and good on paper aren't actually important things -- they really, really are -- but that they are necessary but very much not sufficient.
posted by MattD at 12:15 PM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 12:15 PM on June 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
My therapist doesn't really get why this is such a problem for me.
Sounds like it might be time for a new therapist! You explain this very well. You survived a traumatic event. You're exposed to rape culture in an ongoing way. It makes perfect sense to me, and I only read a 500 word AskMe post from you. I am angry on your behalf that your therapist is failing to validate your feelings, over and over, about this. They seriously do suck and you can tell them that I said so.
Or more practically, and more fairly to them, you could confront them and ask about this. "I'm getting the feeling that you think this isn't, or shouldn't be, a big deal. I think that it is. Am I correctly understanding you?" Having a direct conversation with a therapist can be really educational. And what do you have to lose? You're probably going to fire them anyway.
I mean, I can brainstorm how you might build trust, but having a therapist who is truly skilled in this area is probably far, far better.
posted by salvia at 2:35 PM on June 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sounds like it might be time for a new therapist! You explain this very well. You survived a traumatic event. You're exposed to rape culture in an ongoing way. It makes perfect sense to me, and I only read a 500 word AskMe post from you. I am angry on your behalf that your therapist is failing to validate your feelings, over and over, about this. They seriously do suck and you can tell them that I said so.
Or more practically, and more fairly to them, you could confront them and ask about this. "I'm getting the feeling that you think this isn't, or shouldn't be, a big deal. I think that it is. Am I correctly understanding you?" Having a direct conversation with a therapist can be really educational. And what do you have to lose? You're probably going to fire them anyway.
I mean, I can brainstorm how you might build trust, but having a therapist who is truly skilled in this area is probably far, far better.
posted by salvia at 2:35 PM on June 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You don't trust all men. A lot of men are very untrustworthy. You learn to trust some men who turn out to be worth trusting.
But I nth everyone else saying "don't try to have a relationship with a dude right now." It doesn't sound like you're ready for that or enjoying it when you try right now, on multiple levels.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:10 PM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
But I nth everyone else saying "don't try to have a relationship with a dude right now." It doesn't sound like you're ready for that or enjoying it when you try right now, on multiple levels.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:10 PM on June 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel like I see signs everywhere I look that confirm the beliefs that it sort of left me with about men at 19: ugly messages I get on dating apps, comments on the street, news stories I hear about men exploiting or abusing women (and one of the getting elected President!). I want so badly to believe that what happened to me once was just something one guy did to one girl but I feel like the culture is almost trying to keep me from reaching that conclusion
Well, the thing is that it's not just something one guy did to one girl -- it's something that happened to many women, many times.
The idea of learning to trust "men", as some sort of monolithic group, isn't really sensible at all. It would be a very bad idea to start trusting all men, in all places, at all times.
Trust is something that happens between two people. It builds slowly, as you learn more about each other. You give a little bit of trust to someone and see what they do with it, if they are worthy of your trust or careless with it. You learn to trust a man the same way you learn to trust any other human -- buy slowly getting to know each other.
Nthing get a new therapist.
posted by yohko at 1:53 AM on June 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, the thing is that it's not just something one guy did to one girl -- it's something that happened to many women, many times.
The idea of learning to trust "men", as some sort of monolithic group, isn't really sensible at all. It would be a very bad idea to start trusting all men, in all places, at all times.
Trust is something that happens between two people. It builds slowly, as you learn more about each other. You give a little bit of trust to someone and see what they do with it, if they are worthy of your trust or careless with it. You learn to trust a man the same way you learn to trust any other human -- buy slowly getting to know each other.
Nthing get a new therapist.
posted by yohko at 1:53 AM on June 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't want to suggest, as the overwhelming culture does, that you can CBT your way out of the contradictions of rape culture, among them that you're expected to build the most fundamental relationship of your life with the same gender that is excused and even celebrated (Hello, Mr. President!) for attacking and denigrating women. Nonetheless, I am certain that there are better, more understanding therapists than the one you have now.
posted by ziggly at 7:39 AM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ziggly at 7:39 AM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The idea of learning to trust "men", as some sort of monolithic group, isn't really sensible at all.
This is the nub of the thing. There do not exist any reliable instantly evaluable external markers for trustworthiness, because trustworthiness is an aspect of character and character is invisible; the only way to evaluate character is over time, by getting to know a person and paying attention to how they treat those around them.
Not only that, but trustworthiness is itself best not conceived of as monolithic. For example, I know several people I would trust absolutely to babysit my kids, but not trust even slightly to pay back borrowed money.
Personally I think of trust as a choice I'm making, with eyes wide open to the possibility that it might be betrayed. Doing this consciously and deliberately puts the focus on me, not on the people I'm choosing to trust. This helps avoid falling into the conceptual trap of trying to guess whether the next person I need to choose whether or not to trust will or will not be worthy of that trust because they are a man or because they are 19 years old or because their eyes are a different shape from mine.
I strongly recommend treating each new person you meet as a blank slate when it comes to trust. Start out by deliberately choosing to extend trust, then doing whatever it takes to avoid second-guessing that gamble unless and until your trust has clearly been betrayed beyond reasonable doubt - at which point you write that candidate off and move on to the next.
I equally strongly recommend not trying to "fix" a demonstrably untrustworthy person. People are what they are and life is too short to put yourself through that particular mill.
All of which is completely orthogonal to the question of whether sex with any given person will turn out to be fun or just kind of sad and disgusting. Men are not mandatory. There's nothing to be gained from trying to force yourself to feel attraction to somebody you're not, in fact, genuinely attracted to.
I think it's hard for me to believe that men are not trying to sexually exploit women.
Being date raped is a massive betrayal of trust, and of course it's going to be difficult to put that aside. If it helps, just keep reminding yourself that the man who date raped you did not do that because of his gender, but because he was a rapist and therefore a completely contemptible prick.
I seem to be the only one who can't get over that enough to view men as individuals, not people trying to hurt me.
If you find yourself moving in circles where all the men are giving off a rapey kind of vibe, you might want to think about moving in different circles. Completely contemptible pricks do tend to find each other and hang about in bunches; getting validation from equally contemptible pricks is about the only way those pathetic fucking losers can bear to live with themselves.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is the nub of the thing. There do not exist any reliable instantly evaluable external markers for trustworthiness, because trustworthiness is an aspect of character and character is invisible; the only way to evaluate character is over time, by getting to know a person and paying attention to how they treat those around them.
Not only that, but trustworthiness is itself best not conceived of as monolithic. For example, I know several people I would trust absolutely to babysit my kids, but not trust even slightly to pay back borrowed money.
Personally I think of trust as a choice I'm making, with eyes wide open to the possibility that it might be betrayed. Doing this consciously and deliberately puts the focus on me, not on the people I'm choosing to trust. This helps avoid falling into the conceptual trap of trying to guess whether the next person I need to choose whether or not to trust will or will not be worthy of that trust because they are a man or because they are 19 years old or because their eyes are a different shape from mine.
I strongly recommend treating each new person you meet as a blank slate when it comes to trust. Start out by deliberately choosing to extend trust, then doing whatever it takes to avoid second-guessing that gamble unless and until your trust has clearly been betrayed beyond reasonable doubt - at which point you write that candidate off and move on to the next.
I equally strongly recommend not trying to "fix" a demonstrably untrustworthy person. People are what they are and life is too short to put yourself through that particular mill.
All of which is completely orthogonal to the question of whether sex with any given person will turn out to be fun or just kind of sad and disgusting. Men are not mandatory. There's nothing to be gained from trying to force yourself to feel attraction to somebody you're not, in fact, genuinely attracted to.
I think it's hard for me to believe that men are not trying to sexually exploit women.
Being date raped is a massive betrayal of trust, and of course it's going to be difficult to put that aside. If it helps, just keep reminding yourself that the man who date raped you did not do that because of his gender, but because he was a rapist and therefore a completely contemptible prick.
I seem to be the only one who can't get over that enough to view men as individuals, not people trying to hurt me.
If you find yourself moving in circles where all the men are giving off a rapey kind of vibe, you might want to think about moving in different circles. Completely contemptible pricks do tend to find each other and hang about in bunches; getting validation from equally contemptible pricks is about the only way those pathetic fucking losers can bear to live with themselves.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Outside take: is it possible you feel romantic or emotional attraction to men, but not sexual? Took me forever to figure that out about myself, I'm otherwise solidly in the dyke camp!
Check out Gender Unicorn and the Genderbread Person. They're not perfect models but still helpful.
Like you I have a strong feeling of physical revulsion in sexual interactions with men. It starts when I smell testosterone-scent up close. It's like my whole body is set on edge... sometimes I even feel angry... perhaps that's your "feeling of fear." If I'm really turned on, the disgust is delayed until after we have sex. If I'm in love/lust and the pheromones are flowing strong, the feeling can take a few weeks. But it always kicks in. I suspect it's some kind of chemical cue, though there's no literature to back me up.
Anyway, sounds like you have other factors at work too. But it's worth muddling over your attraction spectrums. I don't see men anymore, it's too confusing to have such mismatched signals between my brain and body. My brain says, "Yes! You like this person! Let's get sexy!" and my body goes, "Hell naw, we ain't doing this!!"
I figure, why make it hard? All systems go with estrogen-dominant folks!
posted by fritillary at 4:00 AM on June 14, 2017
Check out Gender Unicorn and the Genderbread Person. They're not perfect models but still helpful.
Like you I have a strong feeling of physical revulsion in sexual interactions with men. It starts when I smell testosterone-scent up close. It's like my whole body is set on edge... sometimes I even feel angry... perhaps that's your "feeling of fear." If I'm really turned on, the disgust is delayed until after we have sex. If I'm in love/lust and the pheromones are flowing strong, the feeling can take a few weeks. But it always kicks in. I suspect it's some kind of chemical cue, though there's no literature to back me up.
Anyway, sounds like you have other factors at work too. But it's worth muddling over your attraction spectrums. I don't see men anymore, it's too confusing to have such mismatched signals between my brain and body. My brain says, "Yes! You like this person! Let's get sexy!" and my body goes, "Hell naw, we ain't doing this!!"
I figure, why make it hard? All systems go with estrogen-dominant folks!
posted by fritillary at 4:00 AM on June 14, 2017
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posted by jeff-o-matic at 7:35 AM on June 2, 2017 [20 favorites]