I feel angry when my partner talks about this specific topic. Help!
May 26, 2017 1:26 PM Subscribe
I love my boyfriend and think he's wonderful - but his family grew up privileged and when he talks about it in detail, I feel my temperature rising. How can I deal with this?
I posted a thread last year about the fact my boyfriend is from a very affluent background and I am not so much - never really had to struggle, but things weren't always easy and I spent a lot of time with people who did struggle through my parents activism.
When I first met my boyfriend, I initially judged him because he was from a monied background (yes I jumped the gun). I soon saw his kind heart and this stuff didn't matter. As it happens my family really like him a lot and he is still a great partner.
During a recent trip with my family, my boyfriend started talking about how his family had grown up in the same area as the Royal family. My family are mainly republicans and disagree with the monarchy but they listened politely to his stories.
At dinner a few nights later, I had a visceral reaction to something he said. Basically, he was telling me a story about a time his parent 'bumped into' a royal family member in their local area. He then went on to say that he really sympathises with the royal because its difficult having to live that lifestyle when you want to be a regular person. I have to admit I felt very annoyed and surprised - my boyfriend has consistently said that he is anti-monarchy, so I was surprised when he said this. Secondly, I was surprised at how angry it made me feel. I had to walk away and spend 10 mins doing chores just to calm down and face my partner again. We have never fought in 9 months and this is the first time I've really felt the need to cool off.
I have been volunteering to raise money for food banks lately (a huge issue in the UK, don't know about the states). I strongly sympathise with many people who are struggling due to health conditions and being sanctioned (realities that have reduced myself & other volunteers to tears) and admittedly have limited sympathy for the royal family. While I have nothing against them as individuals, I do not agree with the system they uphold. To me, a monarch only fosters inequality more and its not getting better. My boyfriend does not see the monarch as being part of the problem (the opposite of what he said early on), although he is critical of inequality in the country.
All this said, my boyfriend has every right to talk about his family's memories. How do I listen to him talk about this particular aspect of his life without reacting in anger? Secondly, how do I deal with the fact his views are actually far more fluid than he originally lead me to believe,
probably as a way of wooing me at the beginning?
I posted a thread last year about the fact my boyfriend is from a very affluent background and I am not so much - never really had to struggle, but things weren't always easy and I spent a lot of time with people who did struggle through my parents activism.
When I first met my boyfriend, I initially judged him because he was from a monied background (yes I jumped the gun). I soon saw his kind heart and this stuff didn't matter. As it happens my family really like him a lot and he is still a great partner.
During a recent trip with my family, my boyfriend started talking about how his family had grown up in the same area as the Royal family. My family are mainly republicans and disagree with the monarchy but they listened politely to his stories.
At dinner a few nights later, I had a visceral reaction to something he said. Basically, he was telling me a story about a time his parent 'bumped into' a royal family member in their local area. He then went on to say that he really sympathises with the royal because its difficult having to live that lifestyle when you want to be a regular person. I have to admit I felt very annoyed and surprised - my boyfriend has consistently said that he is anti-monarchy, so I was surprised when he said this. Secondly, I was surprised at how angry it made me feel. I had to walk away and spend 10 mins doing chores just to calm down and face my partner again. We have never fought in 9 months and this is the first time I've really felt the need to cool off.
I have been volunteering to raise money for food banks lately (a huge issue in the UK, don't know about the states). I strongly sympathise with many people who are struggling due to health conditions and being sanctioned (realities that have reduced myself & other volunteers to tears) and admittedly have limited sympathy for the royal family. While I have nothing against them as individuals, I do not agree with the system they uphold. To me, a monarch only fosters inequality more and its not getting better. My boyfriend does not see the monarch as being part of the problem (the opposite of what he said early on), although he is critical of inequality in the country.
All this said, my boyfriend has every right to talk about his family's memories. How do I listen to him talk about this particular aspect of his life without reacting in anger? Secondly, how do I deal with the fact his views are actually far more fluid than he originally lead me to believe,
probably as a way of wooing me at the beginning?
You say you have nothing against royals as individuals. His story was of one particular royal as an individual. I don't understand why this made you so angry either.
Consider: this royal person could give away all their money, and they would still never escape the public eye. There's room for some sympathy there, perhaps.
In my experience, the anger you describe is how I feel when I discover I have been lied to about something important. Is that the feeling? If so, were you?
posted by BeeDo at 1:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [11 favorites]
Consider: this royal person could give away all their money, and they would still never escape the public eye. There's room for some sympathy there, perhaps.
In my experience, the anger you describe is how I feel when I discover I have been lied to about something important. Is that the feeling? If so, were you?
posted by BeeDo at 1:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [11 favorites]
There are several issues tied up in your question, and I'm not sure which one is really bothering you the most. Is the problem:
-that you have (possibly) differing political views?
-that it seems like he misled you about his views?
-that he comes from a different background than you?
-that he is sometimes insensitive about his privilege and upbringing?
These are all things that could throw a wrench into a relationship, but could be resolved. I think you should figure out which problem it is, and how important that problem is to you.
posted by the_blizz at 1:48 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
-that you have (possibly) differing political views?
-that it seems like he misled you about his views?
-that he comes from a different background than you?
-that he is sometimes insensitive about his privilege and upbringing?
These are all things that could throw a wrench into a relationship, but could be resolved. I think you should figure out which problem it is, and how important that problem is to you.
posted by the_blizz at 1:48 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think there's kind of a spectrum of anti-monarchy, like with a lot of other political topics. For you, it sounds like you viscerally and strongly want monarchs, and (perhaps the peerage, since you said royal family), not just removed from authority, but removed from that kind of position of privilege. Whereas your boyfriend may be sincerely anti-monarchy, that may not mean he thinks the monarchy needs to disappear right now or to give up their titles and estates as well. This doesn't mean he's lied to you, just that you are in different places on the spectrum.
I wonder if what's bothering you is that you see how much he kind of...associates with that life, and that his views are more intellectual and less visceral like yours are?
posted by corb at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
I wonder if what's bothering you is that you see how much he kind of...associates with that life, and that his views are more intellectual and less visceral like yours are?
posted by corb at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I think you can approach this from a few different angles simultaneously.
First of all, have a good talk with your boyfriend about this. Maybe even show him this question, as it reads very clearly and doesn't denigrate him that I can see. Of course people we're with should feel comfortable talking freely about their lives, but at the same time when we really care about someone it's not unreasonable to watch what we say for reasons of not triggering our partners or being deliberately aggressive. Like, if you were scared of dogs it would be reasonable to ask your partner not to talk about all of the wonderful dogs he has befriended in the past or push you to spend time with dogs now. Obviously the monarchs aren't dogs and you're not going to encounter them nearly as often, so it should be even simpler, but their effect on society is just as far reaching and much more detrimental, as you say. If you figure out through your talk with him that it really isn't the monarchy that gets you angry and that's just a focus for your anxiety about his privileged upbringing, that's another matter and one that you should really think about talking with a therapist about, since you can't ask someone to not talk about their entire life.
You can also try to unpack some of your feelings about his views on your own time. A person can be sympathetic towards another person while still objecting to the lifestyle and choices of that other person. I don't think that empathizing with a royal's stresses is in any way the same as agreeing with monarchy as an okay governmental structure. And furthermore refusing to see them as people is a bit hypocritical on your part since you are so passionate about equality. Being hypocritical is just being human and I don't think you're a bad person or anything but this is definitely something you can work on by yourself. I also think that working to see the monarchs as individuals with very complicated lives could help you in your own fights - if you can't understand the underlying problems in society as it is, how are you going to untangle that web and build something that supports everyone? It's one thing to be idealistic and another thing to take those ideals and apply them to reality as it is right now. I totally understand the desire to reject reality and substitute your own (ask me about my views on the patriarchy!) but working in the real world is how we get real change. You're already doing that through your volunteering but maybe you can expand your thinking to be more complex thus more effective.
Lastly you can practice a form of mindfulness when you're in the moment and he says something that inexplicably angers you. It will help if you can talk to him and agree ahead of time on some kind of signal that you're feeling angry so he can change the subject or give you space or whatever, but even if you haven't gotten to that you can try to handle it on your own. First try to pay attention to your feelings of anger. Are they coming from something very specific or is it more generalized? Try to contain that anger to the thing that's causing it. Think of something that calms you and gives you confidence. Focus on something else that is neutral from a couple different senses, like - if there is music in the space you're in, the texture of something within reach, the good smells or tastes you're enjoying, the lighting or art you can look at. Give yourself permission to feel your anger and then feel something else about the sensory experience you're focusing on and the things you're remembering that give you calm and confidence. Then come back to the conversation and see if the anger remains.
That last thing is something a therapist can really *really* help you with and give you a better structure for that is specific to you and what you respond to well.
I think that conflicting political and ideological views is absolutely something worth breaking up over, but it doesn't sound like that's what is actually going on here. You need to talk to him, and also realize that we're all forming our views at different paces and from different angles. He might just be in the middle of a process of change. If he lied to you then that's a different question.
posted by Mizu at 1:58 PM on May 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
First of all, have a good talk with your boyfriend about this. Maybe even show him this question, as it reads very clearly and doesn't denigrate him that I can see. Of course people we're with should feel comfortable talking freely about their lives, but at the same time when we really care about someone it's not unreasonable to watch what we say for reasons of not triggering our partners or being deliberately aggressive. Like, if you were scared of dogs it would be reasonable to ask your partner not to talk about all of the wonderful dogs he has befriended in the past or push you to spend time with dogs now. Obviously the monarchs aren't dogs and you're not going to encounter them nearly as often, so it should be even simpler, but their effect on society is just as far reaching and much more detrimental, as you say. If you figure out through your talk with him that it really isn't the monarchy that gets you angry and that's just a focus for your anxiety about his privileged upbringing, that's another matter and one that you should really think about talking with a therapist about, since you can't ask someone to not talk about their entire life.
You can also try to unpack some of your feelings about his views on your own time. A person can be sympathetic towards another person while still objecting to the lifestyle and choices of that other person. I don't think that empathizing with a royal's stresses is in any way the same as agreeing with monarchy as an okay governmental structure. And furthermore refusing to see them as people is a bit hypocritical on your part since you are so passionate about equality. Being hypocritical is just being human and I don't think you're a bad person or anything but this is definitely something you can work on by yourself. I also think that working to see the monarchs as individuals with very complicated lives could help you in your own fights - if you can't understand the underlying problems in society as it is, how are you going to untangle that web and build something that supports everyone? It's one thing to be idealistic and another thing to take those ideals and apply them to reality as it is right now. I totally understand the desire to reject reality and substitute your own (ask me about my views on the patriarchy!) but working in the real world is how we get real change. You're already doing that through your volunteering but maybe you can expand your thinking to be more complex thus more effective.
Lastly you can practice a form of mindfulness when you're in the moment and he says something that inexplicably angers you. It will help if you can talk to him and agree ahead of time on some kind of signal that you're feeling angry so he can change the subject or give you space or whatever, but even if you haven't gotten to that you can try to handle it on your own. First try to pay attention to your feelings of anger. Are they coming from something very specific or is it more generalized? Try to contain that anger to the thing that's causing it. Think of something that calms you and gives you confidence. Focus on something else that is neutral from a couple different senses, like - if there is music in the space you're in, the texture of something within reach, the good smells or tastes you're enjoying, the lighting or art you can look at. Give yourself permission to feel your anger and then feel something else about the sensory experience you're focusing on and the things you're remembering that give you calm and confidence. Then come back to the conversation and see if the anger remains.
That last thing is something a therapist can really *really* help you with and give you a better structure for that is specific to you and what you respond to well.
I think that conflicting political and ideological views is absolutely something worth breaking up over, but it doesn't sound like that's what is actually going on here. You need to talk to him, and also realize that we're all forming our views at different paces and from different angles. He might just be in the middle of a process of change. If he lied to you then that's a different question.
posted by Mizu at 1:58 PM on May 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
You say you have nothing against royals as individuals. His story was of one particular royal as an individual. I don't understand why this made you so angry either.
I'd like to stress this. Part of my family is extremely privileged. They are people who I wish had the capacity to love me and not pass down a lot of fucked up issues to untangle.
That means that my feelings towards them are varied and complicated. I don't just want to snuff out all kind feelings I have towards them because that ability to be kind is important to me. It's taken a fair amount of therapy to foster that feeling of kindness I can feel towards people who are cruel to me, so that I can then learn how to feel that same kindness towards myself and set healthier barriers.
As a society, I realize that people have very little compassion towards my plight. After all, their privilege left me with resources so that i can sort through the large stacks of issues I inherited.
But that doesn't mean I deserve that same attitude from my friends and loved ones. It's damaging to be surrounded by people who can't access empathy towards me. I'm not saying that you have to do the emotional labor for him. But you do have to hold space for him so that he can do the work. If that means engaging in additional self care for yourself to get to that point, then to the therapist.
posted by politikitty at 2:04 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'd like to stress this. Part of my family is extremely privileged. They are people who I wish had the capacity to love me and not pass down a lot of fucked up issues to untangle.
That means that my feelings towards them are varied and complicated. I don't just want to snuff out all kind feelings I have towards them because that ability to be kind is important to me. It's taken a fair amount of therapy to foster that feeling of kindness I can feel towards people who are cruel to me, so that I can then learn how to feel that same kindness towards myself and set healthier barriers.
As a society, I realize that people have very little compassion towards my plight. After all, their privilege left me with resources so that i can sort through the large stacks of issues I inherited.
But that doesn't mean I deserve that same attitude from my friends and loved ones. It's damaging to be surrounded by people who can't access empathy towards me. I'm not saying that you have to do the emotional labor for him. But you do have to hold space for him so that he can do the work. If that means engaging in additional self care for yourself to get to that point, then to the therapist.
posted by politikitty at 2:04 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
At this point, I think you need to sit down and unpack your feelings about wealth and the people who benefited from it. Because I don't think this is about your boyfriend or even his attitudes. I think this is about some very deep-seated stereotypes and prejudices that you need to examine.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 2:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [30 favorites]
There may be some nuances here that we are not privy to, but it seems like your views and your partner's views on the monarchy are very close (like, splitting hairs close). Your view is that you are anti-monarchy but have nothing against monarchs as individuals. His view is that he is anti-monarchy but has some sympathy for individual monarchs because of their media scrutiny. So I agree that this seems like an outsize reaction to what happened. I think a more typical reaction would have been for you to hear his statement and say "what gives? I thought you were anti-monarchy?" and for him to respond and you can kind of hash out the nuances of what you both believe. Many of mine and my partner's discussions about topics like this live in the gray area!
This:
Secondly, how do I deal with the fact his views are actually far more fluid than he originally lead me to believe, probably as a way of wooing me at the beginning?
is much more of a red flag to me - do you really think that he lied to you in order to start a romantic relationship? Does he frequently lie? Do you feel that he's flippant about your views? Is the monarchy anecdote a flash point for a conscious or subconscious feeling that he is trying to "trick" you in some way?
posted by cpatterson at 3:15 PM on May 26, 2017
This:
Secondly, how do I deal with the fact his views are actually far more fluid than he originally lead me to believe, probably as a way of wooing me at the beginning?
is much more of a red flag to me - do you really think that he lied to you in order to start a romantic relationship? Does he frequently lie? Do you feel that he's flippant about your views? Is the monarchy anecdote a flash point for a conscious or subconscious feeling that he is trying to "trick" you in some way?
posted by cpatterson at 3:15 PM on May 26, 2017
What I mean to say is, it seems like a big leap to go from "my boyfriend said this thing that's slightly different than how I thought he felt" to "my boyfriend lied and he was probably lying to get with me."
posted by cpatterson at 3:21 PM on May 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by cpatterson at 3:21 PM on May 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
It kind of sounds like you have a very black and white view of what money and privilege can give you. As the royal family have proven, it by no means makes your issues go away. Try looking at images of Princess Diana during her marriage, you've never seen a more miserable looking person. I wouldn't have swapped places with her for all the money in the world, and she tried to leave it too. This was someone who married into it. Imagine being someone actually born to the life who can never leave.
I actually respect your boyfriend for being able to disagree with the system but still have the ability to see the nuances in it and have compassion for those in it. Having the maturity to view people as individuals is such an important ability. Blanket hating an entire group of people is how you end up with racism and other other issues.
I don't know that this is your boyfriend's problem to fix and I would be quite disturbed if someone asked me to snuff out kind feelings toward someone and replace them with anger/hate instead, even if I didn't agree with that person's ideology. I think you might get to get therapy for this one or consider that you and he aren't suited. Asking him to develop your mindset or being angry when he doesn't, doesn't seem right.
posted by Jubey at 3:23 PM on May 26, 2017 [19 favorites]
I actually respect your boyfriend for being able to disagree with the system but still have the ability to see the nuances in it and have compassion for those in it. Having the maturity to view people as individuals is such an important ability. Blanket hating an entire group of people is how you end up with racism and other other issues.
I don't know that this is your boyfriend's problem to fix and I would be quite disturbed if someone asked me to snuff out kind feelings toward someone and replace them with anger/hate instead, even if I didn't agree with that person's ideology. I think you might get to get therapy for this one or consider that you and he aren't suited. Asking him to develop your mindset or being angry when he doesn't, doesn't seem right.
posted by Jubey at 3:23 PM on May 26, 2017 [19 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds to me like the monarchy and his feelings about it are red herrings.
I think the issue is that you feel like his expressing sympathy for a royal suggests that he doesn't "get" what real struggles are, the ones that you empathize with deeply, like what it's like to not have enough to eat.
If that's it, it could be solved by talking about the underlying issue more in depth, even being very frank: "Phil, when you talk about how hard it is to be a misunderstood royal, in the same words that I use to describe the plight of folks getting trying to get their kids fed at the food bank, I find it tone deaf and it makes me feel like you're drawing an grotesque kind of equivalence."
It might be as easy as him being a bit more careful to acknowledge that not all suffering is the same.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [22 favorites]
I think the issue is that you feel like his expressing sympathy for a royal suggests that he doesn't "get" what real struggles are, the ones that you empathize with deeply, like what it's like to not have enough to eat.
If that's it, it could be solved by talking about the underlying issue more in depth, even being very frank: "Phil, when you talk about how hard it is to be a misunderstood royal, in the same words that I use to describe the plight of folks getting trying to get their kids fed at the food bank, I find it tone deaf and it makes me feel like you're drawing an grotesque kind of equivalence."
It might be as easy as him being a bit more careful to acknowledge that not all suffering is the same.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [22 favorites]
Monarchies reflect stratification, whether it be based on class, caste, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, or whatnot. At some time in history, both in India and England from what I understand, even though there was conflict, the stratification was understood to serve a purpose that had some benefit for the collective whole. People could afford specializations instead of pure survival so much. This facilitated a greater variety of goods than could be previously accessed from the raw natural environment. Most people understood and made their peace with the fact that their lives were probably always going to relatively miserable. IMO knowing there existed a group who lived free of the survival-grind well enough to preserve human beauty was a rare, valuable and well-appreciated asset to the collective overall. It kept hope alive that some people were able to live quality lives in spite of the sheer brutality that was surviving the raw natural environment for most (even if it only *looked* good to the commoner from the outside, and also, ironically with those being born into those lives having relatively little choice about it or awareness of the trade-offs until they were older).
If you wanted to re-frame monarchies as having a positive function in society, that's my take on it. It's always good to do the inner work around those powerful gut reactions though. Anyone is vulnerable to having blind spots and/or experiencing projection around a topic, whatever the case may be here. It might not hurt to safely explore what's coming up with a therapist, especially if you're otherwise quite happy with your boyfriend. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 3:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
If you wanted to re-frame monarchies as having a positive function in society, that's my take on it. It's always good to do the inner work around those powerful gut reactions though. Anyone is vulnerable to having blind spots and/or experiencing projection around a topic, whatever the case may be here. It might not hurt to safely explore what's coming up with a therapist, especially if you're otherwise quite happy with your boyfriend. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 3:45 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: fingersandtoes has it. He has never met someone using a food bank, nor does he strive to. That's ok, but it's important to me that he takes at least a little more notice of what is happening outside of our proverbial bubble, because I deeply empathise with it and am directly involved in it. cpatterson, I believe it's the former. I think in that moment I felt I didn't know who he truly was because it seems like his views aren't fixed. For example, he votes for and is member of a liberal political party - and told me that anyone who thinks differently is a 'bad person' (probably in jest). Yet he considers a group of right wing people to be his second family and wants me to become close to them too. I feel his views can sometimes alter depending on the company. Perhaps because he'd rather have an easy life spent with many different types of people?
Jubey, I completely agree about Diana and her ancestors too, that is one of the reasons I disagree with the system. It is worth mentioning I felt this particular royal didn't deserve the same sympathy because of how racist they are. I disagree that royals are born to a life they can never leave. They can leave it, some have, King Edward VIII for example. Would someone from that background ever choose to? Very unlikely.
posted by Kat_Dubs at 4:04 PM on May 26, 2017
Jubey, I completely agree about Diana and her ancestors too, that is one of the reasons I disagree with the system. It is worth mentioning I felt this particular royal didn't deserve the same sympathy because of how racist they are. I disagree that royals are born to a life they can never leave. They can leave it, some have, King Edward VIII for example. Would someone from that background ever choose to? Very unlikely.
posted by Kat_Dubs at 4:04 PM on May 26, 2017
Best answer: It may be helpful to remember that one can dislike monarchy and royals and simultaneously empathize with monarchs and royals. As our counselor told us in a couples session years ago, there's no need to impose a hard and fast duality where there is none. People, and peoples' feelings, are complex and difficult to understand. They certainly are fluid over time, even moment-to-moment.
Can you pose this exact question to him, rather than to us? Discussing these frictions is a cornerstone of addressing conflict rather than nurturing it. People tend to avoid these conversations for all sorts of reasons, perhaps chief among them that you may also have to hear if and what about your peccadilloes make him grit his teeth. Which, if he's doing, he seems to have done as quietly and privately as you have for the last nine months. Would you be prepared to learn that your partner has a similar unspoken anger about you? If so, use your own imagined response to inform how you approach this sticky subject.
In all matters of the heart, be kind, and ask for kindness in return.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:33 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can you pose this exact question to him, rather than to us? Discussing these frictions is a cornerstone of addressing conflict rather than nurturing it. People tend to avoid these conversations for all sorts of reasons, perhaps chief among them that you may also have to hear if and what about your peccadilloes make him grit his teeth. Which, if he's doing, he seems to have done as quietly and privately as you have for the last nine months. Would you be prepared to learn that your partner has a similar unspoken anger about you? If so, use your own imagined response to inform how you approach this sticky subject.
In all matters of the heart, be kind, and ask for kindness in return.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:33 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Chances are, if he's never met someone who uses a food bank and doesn't get involved in the kind of social justice issues you do, he theoretically agrees with you, but doesn't really get it. (It's really easy to pay lip service to this, of course I believe everyone should have access to housing food and water. As you know, it's another thing to do something about it.)
However when he meets someone from his own social strata (if a royal can ever be considered on the same social strata as any of us!) he far closely empathises with them because they have the same background and he can identify with them. Which is coincidentally, the same reason you empathise with the struggles of the more impoverished people, that's where you came from, by the sounds of it.
From what I can tell, he's never walked a mile in your shoes and doesn't sound like he's made any effort to expose himself, whether through volunteering or anything else. Is this where your actual anger comes from, I wonder? You knock yourself out trying to better the world while he's oblivious to what is actually going on and sympathises with a racist old prince? Do you actually want him to help you and put action behind his words? Or am I reading too much into it?
posted by Jubey at 4:34 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
However when he meets someone from his own social strata (if a royal can ever be considered on the same social strata as any of us!) he far closely empathises with them because they have the same background and he can identify with them. Which is coincidentally, the same reason you empathise with the struggles of the more impoverished people, that's where you came from, by the sounds of it.
From what I can tell, he's never walked a mile in your shoes and doesn't sound like he's made any effort to expose himself, whether through volunteering or anything else. Is this where your actual anger comes from, I wonder? You knock yourself out trying to better the world while he's oblivious to what is actually going on and sympathises with a racist old prince? Do you actually want him to help you and put action behind his words? Or am I reading too much into it?
posted by Jubey at 4:34 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: This sounds like you wish you had a giant sign saying "Check your privilege"!
Do you perhaps feel that he may not ever understand you because he's never had to struggle in life - never been hungry, never been in debt, never had a problem that money couldn't solve, never had to suck it up and do what needs to be done to make rent?
Does he love you and actually want to understand you and your life experiences? Does he listen with interest when you talk about the people you've encountered? Does he realize that perhaps his family wealth was built on the backs of exploited labor and systemic violence? Or is he just too comfortably ensconced in his cocoon of privilege?
It's an important question - one that Kate Middleton probably had to wrestle with. It will be essential to your happiness as a couple to work this out. Don't take your full wrath against the system out on him, but don't give him a free pass either.
posted by metaseeker at 4:37 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do you perhaps feel that he may not ever understand you because he's never had to struggle in life - never been hungry, never been in debt, never had a problem that money couldn't solve, never had to suck it up and do what needs to be done to make rent?
Does he love you and actually want to understand you and your life experiences? Does he listen with interest when you talk about the people you've encountered? Does he realize that perhaps his family wealth was built on the backs of exploited labor and systemic violence? Or is he just too comfortably ensconced in his cocoon of privilege?
It's an important question - one that Kate Middleton probably had to wrestle with. It will be essential to your happiness as a couple to work this out. Don't take your full wrath against the system out on him, but don't give him a free pass either.
posted by metaseeker at 4:37 PM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Take my comments with a huge grain of salt as I'm an American and our "old money" here is more recent, not always related to the government, and comes from a variety of sources (land grants in the 1600s, robber barons, etc).
I grew up lower class, and I attended a private university on scholarship with a lot of people who were well off (incidentally, one of whom is peerage in the UK and who also happens to be racist but I'm sure we aren't talking about the same person). While I've been lucky to "beat the system" and move to a higher economic class post-university, there are aspects of growing up in a blue collar lifestyle that I can't really escape. It really bothers me, for example, when people who have never needed food assistance get all judgmental about what foods people are purchasing with their benefits. So regarding your first question, I think it's perfectly reasonable to explain a contrasting perspective in such conversations and then ask to not discuss it further. I find it can also be helpful to ask clarifying questions like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how hard do you feel it would be for a royal to become a bricklayer if they really wanted to?" or "Compared to the average English person who has an annual salary of __ do you think it is more or less difficult for a royal to change their way of life?" The goal being not to invalidate feelings, but to put the royal's situation in a larger perspective.
Regarding your second question, I wouldn't give up hope. His opinions may not be what you thought they were when you first met him, but I would view this more as an opportunity to expand his knowledge base. Maybe pick a date to volunteer together to give out food to the homeless and hungry. You can tell him that you have been considering doing face to face volunteering but you're a little nervous so you would like to go as a pair. Have more conversations about what you do when you raise money for food banks and how the work emotionally drives you and effects you. Give him opportunities to discover for himself why it's important and to meet people who struggle before initiating conversation on how the monarchy system is tangled up in the matter.
posted by donut_princess at 4:42 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
I grew up lower class, and I attended a private university on scholarship with a lot of people who were well off (incidentally, one of whom is peerage in the UK and who also happens to be racist but I'm sure we aren't talking about the same person). While I've been lucky to "beat the system" and move to a higher economic class post-university, there are aspects of growing up in a blue collar lifestyle that I can't really escape. It really bothers me, for example, when people who have never needed food assistance get all judgmental about what foods people are purchasing with their benefits. So regarding your first question, I think it's perfectly reasonable to explain a contrasting perspective in such conversations and then ask to not discuss it further. I find it can also be helpful to ask clarifying questions like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how hard do you feel it would be for a royal to become a bricklayer if they really wanted to?" or "Compared to the average English person who has an annual salary of __ do you think it is more or less difficult for a royal to change their way of life?" The goal being not to invalidate feelings, but to put the royal's situation in a larger perspective.
Regarding your second question, I wouldn't give up hope. His opinions may not be what you thought they were when you first met him, but I would view this more as an opportunity to expand his knowledge base. Maybe pick a date to volunteer together to give out food to the homeless and hungry. You can tell him that you have been considering doing face to face volunteering but you're a little nervous so you would like to go as a pair. Have more conversations about what you do when you raise money for food banks and how the work emotionally drives you and effects you. Give him opportunities to discover for himself why it's important and to meet people who struggle before initiating conversation on how the monarchy system is tangled up in the matter.
posted by donut_princess at 4:42 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Other people have written thoughtfully about approaches to this; I think fingersandtoes hit the nail on the head about gradations of suffering.
But personally, I think this specific set of incompatibilities would be a dealbreaker for me. Not because of anything inherently bad about your boyfriend, but just because I'd know that I could never be comfortable being my authentic self with him. I grew up poor, but in a family with some privilege (both my parents had gone to university and were well-traveled readers and thinkers, but there were some winters when all five of us slept in the same room because we couldn't afford to heat the rest of the house, for example). I don't think I could be in a meaningful, long-term relationship with someone who couldn't in some way relate to these experiences--whether because they'd come from a complicated class background, or just because they're curious enough about other people's lives and ways of living that they've developed genuine, thoughtful ways of engaging with class in spite of not growing up in poverty or whatever.
There's a limited extent to which he can understand issues of class and poverty if he's only interested in doing so to maintain a relationship with you--and I hope it goes without saying that it's not your job to provide him with anthropological material via your social justice work, nor facilitate "disaster tourism" by taking him to the food bank to help out if he's not genuinely interested in helping... I'm not saying DTMFA, but I am saying that if this is an issue to you (and obviously it is), perhaps that should tell you something deeper about the prospects of the relationship itself.
posted by tapir-whorf at 7:11 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
But personally, I think this specific set of incompatibilities would be a dealbreaker for me. Not because of anything inherently bad about your boyfriend, but just because I'd know that I could never be comfortable being my authentic self with him. I grew up poor, but in a family with some privilege (both my parents had gone to university and were well-traveled readers and thinkers, but there were some winters when all five of us slept in the same room because we couldn't afford to heat the rest of the house, for example). I don't think I could be in a meaningful, long-term relationship with someone who couldn't in some way relate to these experiences--whether because they'd come from a complicated class background, or just because they're curious enough about other people's lives and ways of living that they've developed genuine, thoughtful ways of engaging with class in spite of not growing up in poverty or whatever.
There's a limited extent to which he can understand issues of class and poverty if he's only interested in doing so to maintain a relationship with you--and I hope it goes without saying that it's not your job to provide him with anthropological material via your social justice work, nor facilitate "disaster tourism" by taking him to the food bank to help out if he's not genuinely interested in helping... I'm not saying DTMFA, but I am saying that if this is an issue to you (and obviously it is), perhaps that should tell you something deeper about the prospects of the relationship itself.
posted by tapir-whorf at 7:11 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
He votes for and is member of a liberal political party - and told me that anyone who thinks differently is a 'bad person' (probably in jest). Yet he considers a group of right wing people to be his second family and wants me to become close to them too.
To me it seems like a positive quality that he is able to treat individuals as individuals and separate his feelings about them from his feelings about socioeconomic or political groups they belong to. Surely you wouldn't rather that he treated all people who did not agree with him politically as if they were truly "bad people" and refused to associate with them? You don't believe that those people are wholly "bad", either, do you? And hopefully, people who he loves and perceives as his "second family" are people who have positive qualities you could appreciate too?
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:19 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
To me it seems like a positive quality that he is able to treat individuals as individuals and separate his feelings about them from his feelings about socioeconomic or political groups they belong to. Surely you wouldn't rather that he treated all people who did not agree with him politically as if they were truly "bad people" and refused to associate with them? You don't believe that those people are wholly "bad", either, do you? And hopefully, people who he loves and perceives as his "second family" are people who have positive qualities you could appreciate too?
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:19 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
I wonder if you might have some discomfort about his and his family's role in an inequal system, and whether you feel like he has ever really grappled with that.
posted by Lady Li at 12:16 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Lady Li at 12:16 AM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
(It's certainly true that Edward abdicated, but he didn't magically become a private citizen. Press followed him as closely as any peripheral royal. That's what I think people are saying here; even Royal cousins with no official duties are still celebrities, right?)
posted by uberchet at 6:49 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 6:49 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with those who suggest therapy, above-- disproportionate visceral reactions are powerful things, and it's hard to unpack them on one's own.
tapirwhorf, above, makes a good point. If you want the relationship to be healthy enough to continue, you are both-- individually and as a couple-- going to have to find ways to navigate the complex intersections of emotion, politics and socioeconomic status. Again, therapy could be very helpful here.
tapirwhorf says: I think this specific set of incompatibilities would be a dealbreaker for me. Not because of anything inherently bad about your boyfriend, but just because I'd know that I could never be comfortable being my authentic self with him.
Also, if your boyfriend is constantly feeling judged and pressured to apologise for his background and his family, he can't be his authentic self either.
Maybe try a policy of "live and let live"? Where he understands that you're not going to hang out with his right-wing second family, and you understand that he's not going to volunteer at the food bank. Where you understand that neither of you are perfect, but you can love each other for the things that are good and compatible, while giving the other person some space for the things you each love but don't share.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:14 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
tapirwhorf, above, makes a good point. If you want the relationship to be healthy enough to continue, you are both-- individually and as a couple-- going to have to find ways to navigate the complex intersections of emotion, politics and socioeconomic status. Again, therapy could be very helpful here.
tapirwhorf says: I think this specific set of incompatibilities would be a dealbreaker for me. Not because of anything inherently bad about your boyfriend, but just because I'd know that I could never be comfortable being my authentic self with him.
Also, if your boyfriend is constantly feeling judged and pressured to apologise for his background and his family, he can't be his authentic self either.
Maybe try a policy of "live and let live"? Where he understands that you're not going to hang out with his right-wing second family, and you understand that he's not going to volunteer at the food bank. Where you understand that neither of you are perfect, but you can love each other for the things that are good and compatible, while giving the other person some space for the things you each love but don't share.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:14 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
For example, he votes for and is member of a liberal political party - and told me that anyone who thinks differently is a 'bad person' (probably in jest). Yet he considers a group of right wing people to be his second family and wants me to become close to them too. I feel his views can sometimes alter depending on the company. Perhaps because he'd rather have an easy life spent with many different types of people?
So I went to a good-but-not-Oxbridge university in the UK and would say I am fairly familiar with a certain type - people who come from well-off families and went to a posh school but like to reassure everyone that they vote Labour and they think it's like, really unfair about those benefit cuts and we should save the NHS; but of course they have dinner every year with all the old school chums and wear black tie (it's just a silly old traditional thing), and they're really sorry about what their friend Tarquin said about chavs but that's just how Tarquin is, he was just being funny, and they totally agree that there's a system of inequality in the UK but can't see any reason not to accept a gift of money from Daddy's offshore business account to get on the property ladder.
I'm being deliberately flippant and I'm not saying your boyfriend is like this. I'm saying that many people (possibly most people) lead an unexamined life, a life where we have convictions and beliefs but are not called upon to truly live out those beliefs. Where we live within systems of privilege that we acknowledge are unfair but we are not required to put ourselves on the line to challenge those systems. You don't say in this question whether your boyfriend was privately educated but in my experience, British public schools are very good at turning out people who can get along with lots of different types of people, who possess the social capital to fit in and be nice and move pretty smoothly through life - which sometimes means altering behaviors and stated viewpoints depending on the crowd. You can see that as two-faced duplicity or you can see that as polite empathy or you can see it somewhere in between.
What I am trying to say with all of this is that we all have to wrestle with our privilege and decide where we draw our battle lines, and it doesn't make us terrible people, but some of us are more willing or more able to put our money where our mouth is in terms of matching beliefs with activism. I agree that the monarchy issue is a red herring because I think you are really struggling with the question of whether your boyfriend is willing to live out his beliefs in the same way that you are.
posted by cpatterson at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
So I went to a good-but-not-Oxbridge university in the UK and would say I am fairly familiar with a certain type - people who come from well-off families and went to a posh school but like to reassure everyone that they vote Labour and they think it's like, really unfair about those benefit cuts and we should save the NHS; but of course they have dinner every year with all the old school chums and wear black tie (it's just a silly old traditional thing), and they're really sorry about what their friend Tarquin said about chavs but that's just how Tarquin is, he was just being funny, and they totally agree that there's a system of inequality in the UK but can't see any reason not to accept a gift of money from Daddy's offshore business account to get on the property ladder.
I'm being deliberately flippant and I'm not saying your boyfriend is like this. I'm saying that many people (possibly most people) lead an unexamined life, a life where we have convictions and beliefs but are not called upon to truly live out those beliefs. Where we live within systems of privilege that we acknowledge are unfair but we are not required to put ourselves on the line to challenge those systems. You don't say in this question whether your boyfriend was privately educated but in my experience, British public schools are very good at turning out people who can get along with lots of different types of people, who possess the social capital to fit in and be nice and move pretty smoothly through life - which sometimes means altering behaviors and stated viewpoints depending on the crowd. You can see that as two-faced duplicity or you can see that as polite empathy or you can see it somewhere in between.
What I am trying to say with all of this is that we all have to wrestle with our privilege and decide where we draw our battle lines, and it doesn't make us terrible people, but some of us are more willing or more able to put our money where our mouth is in terms of matching beliefs with activism. I agree that the monarchy issue is a red herring because I think you are really struggling with the question of whether your boyfriend is willing to live out his beliefs in the same way that you are.
posted by cpatterson at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
The answers that you've marked as best answers seem to validate your instinct that you're on the right side of the argument.
I think that if you cannot accept your boyfriend the way he is NOW, perhaps you should break up.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:02 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think that if you cannot accept your boyfriend the way he is NOW, perhaps you should break up.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:02 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, it's fine to believe you're on the right side of the argument and also continue to communicate with him about why you're feeling the disconnect, and also try therapy and such. No need to immediately break up without explanation because some internet strangers are ruffled that you have a conscience.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:45 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by stoneandstar at 11:45 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:37 PM on May 26, 2017 [58 favorites]