How do I deal with my boyfriend's masturbation habits?
May 23, 2017 4:24 PM Subscribe
I've been dating my boyfriend for a little over a year and it's been great... except this one thing that's been eating away at me but which also makes me feel ridiculous for being upset. His masturbation habits and knowing the exact real women that he jerked off to.
To give more details, I saw his most visited Instagram accounts, all of which happened to be his attractive (former) female coworkers. My profile was the top one, but when I saw it something about it just bothered me and so I asked him about it, knowing deep down what it meant. He admitted that he looked at their pictures while masturbating while completely broke me. I felt and still feel inadequate, insecure and all sorts of other bad things. He's been very understanding and gentle with me throughout all of this and promised me he wouldn't do what he was doing anymore, but it feels like something I can't "unsee." I can't tell you how many similar threads I've read on the topic. I drove myself crazy trying to find a reasonable solution, and although months later I'm feeling a bit better, it still comes back and "haunts" me sometimes in the smallest ways.
He's taken a lot of steps to make me feel comfortable which is why I feel incredibly guilty for not being able to let this go. He quickly unfollowed all the women whose photos he had done that to (without my asking) and patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt. He gave me his of things, which is that it's just something he did, a masturbation habit, and he felt it was harmless because they were just fantasies in his head that ended when he was done. He didn't feel as though it affected his feelings for me, and it was a private thing. Since then I've read about others doing the same thing but it seems that it's generally something that's kept a secret. It just hurts that he continued to do it while dating me, even though we had only been dating for 8 months by the time I found out. He hasn't invalidated my feelings at all or made me feel stupid/crazy/bad for feeling the way I felt. I feel like all the insecurities are in my head and the more I think about everything, the worse I feel.
I know it sounds silly that I'm so upset by my boyfriends masturbation habits and I wish I didn't feel this way at all. I feel really stupid and like I'm not a good girlfriend at all for feeling this way. I wish I could've brushed it off but they were women he interacted with on a daily basis and although he no longer works with any of them, I still keep comparing myself to them. It's really unhealthy. I can tell my boyfriend loves me and cares about me and is very attracted to me, but this discovery seems to have shaken all of my confidence in the relationship and myself.
The reason I chose to write here is because I feel as though I'm escalating. We went to a coffee shop together this weekend and the barista happened to be one of his former coworkers. I immediately felt like crap because all I could think about is how my boyfriend had pleasured himself to pictures and thoughts of the woman serving us our coffees. We got into a fight as a result later that day because he could tell I was upset and tried to reassure me by lying about jerking off to her, which made me more upset. To be fair, I was freaking out about it over text and he was at work, so I can see why he'd want to deny it to calm me down, but I hate being lied to and once we saw each other later in the day he admitted that he had but didn't want to make me more upset. This whole weekend I felt mentally unhinged, I kept asking him about her, the other girls and all my trust issues and insecurities just came out in the worst ways possible. I feel unattractive because of the way I've been acting and feeling and I also feel guilty and needy for constantly seeking his reassurance.
I don't really know how I can move on from this and am in desperate need of advice. I guess this shows how insecure I already was but never wanted to admit it. My ex boyfriend or 4 years cheated on me and lied to me countlessly so I'm fearful of having the same thing happen despite logically knowing that my boyfriend is a different, kind and sweet man. Is this something that can realistically be resolved and dealt with? I have no idea where to go from here, but I feel that it would be ridiculous for me to end a relationship over this despite it gnawing away at my brain lately.
To give more details, I saw his most visited Instagram accounts, all of which happened to be his attractive (former) female coworkers. My profile was the top one, but when I saw it something about it just bothered me and so I asked him about it, knowing deep down what it meant. He admitted that he looked at their pictures while masturbating while completely broke me. I felt and still feel inadequate, insecure and all sorts of other bad things. He's been very understanding and gentle with me throughout all of this and promised me he wouldn't do what he was doing anymore, but it feels like something I can't "unsee." I can't tell you how many similar threads I've read on the topic. I drove myself crazy trying to find a reasonable solution, and although months later I'm feeling a bit better, it still comes back and "haunts" me sometimes in the smallest ways.
He's taken a lot of steps to make me feel comfortable which is why I feel incredibly guilty for not being able to let this go. He quickly unfollowed all the women whose photos he had done that to (without my asking) and patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt. He gave me his of things, which is that it's just something he did, a masturbation habit, and he felt it was harmless because they were just fantasies in his head that ended when he was done. He didn't feel as though it affected his feelings for me, and it was a private thing. Since then I've read about others doing the same thing but it seems that it's generally something that's kept a secret. It just hurts that he continued to do it while dating me, even though we had only been dating for 8 months by the time I found out. He hasn't invalidated my feelings at all or made me feel stupid/crazy/bad for feeling the way I felt. I feel like all the insecurities are in my head and the more I think about everything, the worse I feel.
I know it sounds silly that I'm so upset by my boyfriends masturbation habits and I wish I didn't feel this way at all. I feel really stupid and like I'm not a good girlfriend at all for feeling this way. I wish I could've brushed it off but they were women he interacted with on a daily basis and although he no longer works with any of them, I still keep comparing myself to them. It's really unhealthy. I can tell my boyfriend loves me and cares about me and is very attracted to me, but this discovery seems to have shaken all of my confidence in the relationship and myself.
The reason I chose to write here is because I feel as though I'm escalating. We went to a coffee shop together this weekend and the barista happened to be one of his former coworkers. I immediately felt like crap because all I could think about is how my boyfriend had pleasured himself to pictures and thoughts of the woman serving us our coffees. We got into a fight as a result later that day because he could tell I was upset and tried to reassure me by lying about jerking off to her, which made me more upset. To be fair, I was freaking out about it over text and he was at work, so I can see why he'd want to deny it to calm me down, but I hate being lied to and once we saw each other later in the day he admitted that he had but didn't want to make me more upset. This whole weekend I felt mentally unhinged, I kept asking him about her, the other girls and all my trust issues and insecurities just came out in the worst ways possible. I feel unattractive because of the way I've been acting and feeling and I also feel guilty and needy for constantly seeking his reassurance.
I don't really know how I can move on from this and am in desperate need of advice. I guess this shows how insecure I already was but never wanted to admit it. My ex boyfriend or 4 years cheated on me and lied to me countlessly so I'm fearful of having the same thing happen despite logically knowing that my boyfriend is a different, kind and sweet man. Is this something that can realistically be resolved and dealt with? I have no idea where to go from here, but I feel that it would be ridiculous for me to end a relationship over this despite it gnawing away at my brain lately.
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- taz
Your boyfriend's 'sensible and socially appropriate white lie' game is regrettably weak.
These women then had their images used in a way they did not consent to by a co-worker.
Fantasising about an acquaintance is essentially the same thing, surely, and entirely acceptable in 2017. Isn't it? People have promiscuous imaginations.
I don't see this as a moral issue, what matters is how you feel about it, and yes if you can't get over it then that's that. Seems a pity, but you can't help how you feel and it doesn't appear there's anything he can do about it at this point.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:52 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
These women then had their images used in a way they did not consent to by a co-worker.
Fantasising about an acquaintance is essentially the same thing, surely, and entirely acceptable in 2017. Isn't it? People have promiscuous imaginations.
I don't see this as a moral issue, what matters is how you feel about it, and yes if you can't get over it then that's that. Seems a pity, but you can't help how you feel and it doesn't appear there's anything he can do about it at this point.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:52 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
There's not a lot he can do about it? Are you kidding me? How about not giving his girlfriend an exhaustive list of how he wanks off to his friends and then dragging her to a coffee shop where she can meet the woman who features in all of his fantasies?! Somehow I doubt that was an accident.
This guy is a manipulative super creep and is not only telling you this to make you jealous, he's then introducing you to these people so you have an actual real life woman to further fuel your insecurities.
And the shame of it is, these poor friends are being dragged into your relationship dramas without their consent or knowledge. The reason you're disgusted and creeped out is because he's disgusting and creepy. I would dump him so hard he bounces.
posted by Jubey at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2017 [25 favorites]
This guy is a manipulative super creep and is not only telling you this to make you jealous, he's then introducing you to these people so you have an actual real life woman to further fuel your insecurities.
And the shame of it is, these poor friends are being dragged into your relationship dramas without their consent or knowledge. The reason you're disgusted and creeped out is because he's disgusting and creepy. I would dump him so hard he bounces.
posted by Jubey at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2017 [25 favorites]
Gross that he does this, but really goddamn gross that he told you. This is not a "you" problem. I would DTMFA personally, but at the very least, stop blaming yourself for feeling bad about this. Telling you he jerks it to former coworkers is creepy and weird. It's not "silly" or "stupid" to be upset about this.
posted by noxperpetua at 5:06 PM on May 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by noxperpetua at 5:06 PM on May 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
My first response was "ew. That's kinda gross"
You can do better.
posted by lunastellasol at 5:18 PM on May 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
You can do better.
posted by lunastellasol at 5:18 PM on May 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
Huh. Before reading the previous responses I was ready to reply: Do you masturbate? Do you think about other people when you do? Or if you don't, do you ever see a guy and think he's handsome? Does this have any bearing on your feelings for your boyfriend? Then I would've suggested that you focus on how insignificant it feels when you find someone other than your boyfriend attractive (which is a one dimensional feeling) compared to your feelings for him (which I assume are multidimensional).
But the previous responses gave me pause. It is odd that he came out and told you he masturbates while looking at these instagram photos. I initially wrote that off as him being young and inexperienced and taking "honesty is important in a relationship" to illogical extremes. This would've been a great time for a white lie. I personally don't think it's creepy or wrong for a person to masturbate to pictures of friends or acquaintances as long as those friends and acquaintances are truly none the wiser. It's also not respectful to put that image in his girlfriend's head.
I also feel like him unfollowing all those people was a bit of overkill. I actually wonder if this made it seem like a bigger deal to you than it was, like it really was a threat to your relationship, even though unfollowing was ostensibly to be respectful of your feelings.
That being said, maybe he is a creep in some way you haven't been able to put words to and because you can't put a finger on his creepiness, right now you are focusing on this issue because it's tangible. I think you should give some thought to why you immediately thought upon seeing his instagram list that he was masturbating to these women. Has he given you other reasons to feel insecure?
On the other hand, have you been insecure in other relationships or had experiences in other relationships that have left you feeling insecure? Is he hitting some of those sore spots inadvertently?
It seems to me that to solve the problem of feeling insecure, you have to figure out the root of your insecurity and how much of it is coming from him.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:19 PM on May 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
But the previous responses gave me pause. It is odd that he came out and told you he masturbates while looking at these instagram photos. I initially wrote that off as him being young and inexperienced and taking "honesty is important in a relationship" to illogical extremes. This would've been a great time for a white lie. I personally don't think it's creepy or wrong for a person to masturbate to pictures of friends or acquaintances as long as those friends and acquaintances are truly none the wiser. It's also not respectful to put that image in his girlfriend's head.
I also feel like him unfollowing all those people was a bit of overkill. I actually wonder if this made it seem like a bigger deal to you than it was, like it really was a threat to your relationship, even though unfollowing was ostensibly to be respectful of your feelings.
That being said, maybe he is a creep in some way you haven't been able to put words to and because you can't put a finger on his creepiness, right now you are focusing on this issue because it's tangible. I think you should give some thought to why you immediately thought upon seeing his instagram list that he was masturbating to these women. Has he given you other reasons to feel insecure?
On the other hand, have you been insecure in other relationships or had experiences in other relationships that have left you feeling insecure? Is he hitting some of those sore spots inadvertently?
It seems to me that to solve the problem of feeling insecure, you have to figure out the root of your insecurity and how much of it is coming from him.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:19 PM on May 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
It seems like maybe you, on some level, consider masturbating while in a relationship to be infidelity. If so, that is something you need to either work on yourself or make very clear at the beginning of a relationship.
As for what to do now, if you don't find it unacceptably creepy and want to continue the relationship, in the short term remind yourself that he hasn't been unfaithful to you any time you have these intrusive thoughts and, more importantly, give it some time. It might be good to go low contact for a few days to a week just to process your feelings, after letting him know what's going on, of course.
If you do find it unacceptably creepy, then dump him. It's ok. Sometimes things just don't work out, so it isn't like you are being incredibly unfair to him. If you won't ever be able to trust him, you're doing a favor for both of you.
In the future, maybe don't ask questions if you are fairly certain you already know the answer and you know that hearing it will only make things worse. I'm generally in favor of more communication rather than less, but there are some things best left unsaid. Past partners and fantasies involving specific people often being one of those things, at least when the relationship isn't both very long term and rock solid.
posted by wierdo at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
As for what to do now, if you don't find it unacceptably creepy and want to continue the relationship, in the short term remind yourself that he hasn't been unfaithful to you any time you have these intrusive thoughts and, more importantly, give it some time. It might be good to go low contact for a few days to a week just to process your feelings, after letting him know what's going on, of course.
If you do find it unacceptably creepy, then dump him. It's ok. Sometimes things just don't work out, so it isn't like you are being incredibly unfair to him. If you won't ever be able to trust him, you're doing a favor for both of you.
In the future, maybe don't ask questions if you are fairly certain you already know the answer and you know that hearing it will only make things worse. I'm generally in favor of more communication rather than less, but there are some things best left unsaid. Past partners and fantasies involving specific people often being one of those things, at least when the relationship isn't both very long term and rock solid.
posted by wierdo at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yeah, get out. The nonconsensual element to this really bothers me, and others here, clearly enough.
posted by Alensin at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Alensin at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm a guy (hetero, married) and this is pretty effing weird.
There are lots of different perspectives and tolerances for watching porn (for some people it's a deal-breaker in a relationship, for some it's not), and cyber-creeping is not exactly unusual. However, this isn't really the same thing as viewing pornography. And his habits are way, way beyond idly checking out someone's Instagram feed. They never consented to having their photos used this way.
But your boyfriend is taking it to a whole new level. While he may be thinking of these women as masturbation material, he's also inviting you to regard them in that context, whether you want to or not. I also think it's pretty transgressive to creep or stalk coworkers on social media to use as a masturbation resource. It's transgressive.
Essentially, if you're not comfortable with this fellow's sexuality, it's time to move on.
posted by My Dad at 5:23 PM on May 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
There are lots of different perspectives and tolerances for watching porn (for some people it's a deal-breaker in a relationship, for some it's not), and cyber-creeping is not exactly unusual. However, this isn't really the same thing as viewing pornography. And his habits are way, way beyond idly checking out someone's Instagram feed. They never consented to having their photos used this way.
But your boyfriend is taking it to a whole new level. While he may be thinking of these women as masturbation material, he's also inviting you to regard them in that context, whether you want to or not. I also think it's pretty transgressive to creep or stalk coworkers on social media to use as a masturbation resource. It's transgressive.
Essentially, if you're not comfortable with this fellow's sexuality, it's time to move on.
posted by My Dad at 5:23 PM on May 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
I told him I wanted honesty from the beginning because he had lied about porn, so he's been trying to be as honest as possible since then.
he is responsible for having reasonable adult boundaries, whether you specify them for him or not, and whether you even agree with them or not. he can't blame this spectacularly inappropriate disclosure on you. Telling you this about real actual live women that you may run into and talk to is pretty nauseating. to be clear, it does no man or woman any harm whatsoever to be fantasized about. but to be talked about in this kind of over-intimate context by two people you aren't intimate with, jesus christ. that poor woman.
He shouldn't have told you. I'm not sure you should have asked or expected an answer, either, but that's beside the point. He shouldn't have told you this regardless. There is no reason on earth to tell someone these things except to hurt them or just make them uncomfortable.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:26 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
he is responsible for having reasonable adult boundaries, whether you specify them for him or not, and whether you even agree with them or not. he can't blame this spectacularly inappropriate disclosure on you. Telling you this about real actual live women that you may run into and talk to is pretty nauseating. to be clear, it does no man or woman any harm whatsoever to be fantasized about. but to be talked about in this kind of over-intimate context by two people you aren't intimate with, jesus christ. that poor woman.
He shouldn't have told you. I'm not sure you should have asked or expected an answer, either, but that's beside the point. He shouldn't have told you this regardless. There is no reason on earth to tell someone these things except to hurt them or just make them uncomfortable.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:26 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
You are not obligated to deal with this, you can just break up with him.
He's a That Guy. It is indicative of a pretty crap view of what women are for, what acquaintances are for, and it's so goddamn basic. Like, every pretty girl has to deal with these guys on their FB and Insta, the ones who feel entitled to them and to this behavior because they're pretty so they deserve to be used, and maybe he curates his behavior so they don't know - they all think nobody knows - but ugh, date someone with a higher-grade imagination.
Someone who needs to be literally looking at a picture of a clothed friend to beat off - often enough that it's fucking up his feed sorts - cannot be bringing an A game to the sheets with you.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2017 [27 favorites]
He's a That Guy. It is indicative of a pretty crap view of what women are for, what acquaintances are for, and it's so goddamn basic. Like, every pretty girl has to deal with these guys on their FB and Insta, the ones who feel entitled to them and to this behavior because they're pretty so they deserve to be used, and maybe he curates his behavior so they don't know - they all think nobody knows - but ugh, date someone with a higher-grade imagination.
Someone who needs to be literally looking at a picture of a clothed friend to beat off - often enough that it's fucking up his feed sorts - cannot be bringing an A game to the sheets with you.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2017 [27 favorites]
The OP asked her boyfriend about them as I read it, he did not volunteer that information. That seems a crucial part of this Ask. I'm baffled he didn't lie but here we are.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:33 PM on May 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 5:33 PM on May 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
This won't stop. If you are uncomfortable with it now you'll be even more uncomfortable when it happens AGAIN at some point in the future.
posted by friendofstone at 5:35 PM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by friendofstone at 5:35 PM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know about the bigger issue of how you can deal with this. This stands out to me:
I told him I wanted honesty from the beginning because he had lied about porn, so he's been trying to be as honest as possible since then.
Most modern men look at porn, most modern men have fantasized about their acquaintances they find attractive, assuming we're talking about USA or most other places where the guys you date have and use to instagram. It looks like you've done something similar yourself?
So, my advice is either don't ask, or ask early and then move on quickly if you don't like the answer.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:41 PM on May 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I told him I wanted honesty from the beginning because he had lied about porn, so he's been trying to be as honest as possible since then.
Most modern men look at porn, most modern men have fantasized about their acquaintances they find attractive, assuming we're talking about USA or most other places where the guys you date have and use to instagram. It looks like you've done something similar yourself?
So, my advice is either don't ask, or ask early and then move on quickly if you don't like the answer.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:41 PM on May 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've done very similar things when I was single, and used to fantasize about one of my male coworkers in private, and I have at one point used pictures online as visual aid, so I can see the appeal and why one might consider it 'harmless', but it still hurts knowing he did it while we were together.
Have you told him, or would you tell him if he asked, that you've fantasised about co-workers before? Could that be a way through this? You were single so it's not directly comparable, but being in a relationship doesn't always require mental monogamy.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:45 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Have you told him, or would you tell him if he asked, that you've fantasised about co-workers before? Could that be a way through this? You were single so it's not directly comparable, but being in a relationship doesn't always require mental monogamy.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:45 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of different perspectives here and you won't get a consensus view, but I consider him creepy because he has a fundamental lack of understanding of what privacy is, and is for. that is frightening to me. Not frightening like he'll kill you with an axe; frightening like this man is a child inside, and children don't have to be malicious to hurt people. they do it by accident.
Your sexual imagination is sacrosanct and absolutely private unless you choose to share it with another person. If you share it with a person you're involved with, there is one good reason to do so: because you have good reason to think they'll find it exciting too, or because telling them something secret about yourself is a way to deepen the bond between you even if it's not sexy to them per se. Two reasons, I guess that is.
He didn't do it for either of those reasons. He knew, because he knows you, that it would have the opposite effects. He did it because, well, mommy said I had to tell, so I had to tell. sorry, that is coarse, but that is how it comes across to me.
He didn't have to lie, either - he could have said, Oh, those are the accounts of some women I used to work with, I like to keep up with them. They post a lot of pictures of themselves, sorry if it bugs you to have me looking at them, I'll unfollow them. All true, same outcome as what actually happened, but keeps his private business private, doesn't make these (real!!!!) women a topic of sexual discussion between you, and doesn't hurt you. That is what a prudent grown man would do.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:48 PM on May 23, 2017 [32 favorites]
Your sexual imagination is sacrosanct and absolutely private unless you choose to share it with another person. If you share it with a person you're involved with, there is one good reason to do so: because you have good reason to think they'll find it exciting too, or because telling them something secret about yourself is a way to deepen the bond between you even if it's not sexy to them per se. Two reasons, I guess that is.
He didn't do it for either of those reasons. He knew, because he knows you, that it would have the opposite effects. He did it because, well, mommy said I had to tell, so I had to tell. sorry, that is coarse, but that is how it comes across to me.
He didn't have to lie, either - he could have said, Oh, those are the accounts of some women I used to work with, I like to keep up with them. They post a lot of pictures of themselves, sorry if it bugs you to have me looking at them, I'll unfollow them. All true, same outcome as what actually happened, but keeps his private business private, doesn't make these (real!!!!) women a topic of sexual discussion between you, and doesn't hurt you. That is what a prudent grown man would do.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:48 PM on May 23, 2017 [32 favorites]
He didn't have to lie
But he did. The OP pursued it until he told her, after she asked him to tell her the truth about exactly this kind of thing. To deny it when asked would have been a lie. Characterising it as something he's forcing on Hexenkunst does not match the story she's presented.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:57 PM on May 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
But he did. The OP pursued it until he told her, after she asked him to tell her the truth about exactly this kind of thing. To deny it when asked would have been a lie. Characterising it as something he's forcing on Hexenkunst does not match the story she's presented.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:57 PM on May 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
I've done very similar things when I was single, and used to fantasize about one of my male coworkers in private, and I have at one point used pictures online as visual aid, so I can see the appeal and why one might consider it 'harmless', but it still hurts knowing he did it while we were together.
You were single, not telling your partner at the time and then taking them for coffee where the person you fantasized about was working when they were already insecure about the situation and would necessarily compare themselves to the object of your fantasy.
At the minimum, your boyfriend is insensitive and has some weird boundaries. At a maximum, he's a creepy jerk making shitty power plays. You need to decide what you're comfortable with and how you see the situation - not how you want to see it, but how you do see it.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:01 PM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
You were single, not telling your partner at the time and then taking them for coffee where the person you fantasized about was working when they were already insecure about the situation and would necessarily compare themselves to the object of your fantasy.
At the minimum, your boyfriend is insensitive and has some weird boundaries. At a maximum, he's a creepy jerk making shitty power plays. You need to decide what you're comfortable with and how you see the situation - not how you want to see it, but how you do see it.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:01 PM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I wouldn't recommend this normally, but might it be useful to show him this thread? Your tangled feelings in it are very apparent and honest, and it might help you move forward together which, it feels like to me, is what you strongly want to do?
posted by Sebmojo at 6:04 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 6:04 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Your feelings are TOTALLY valid AND rational! (but from your post it seems like you might be doubting yourself and your feelings).
"...but which also makes me feel ridiculous for being upset..."
"I feel like all the insecurities are in my head and the more I think about everything, the worse I feel."
"I feel really stupid and like I'm not a good girlfriend at all for feeling this way."
"I feel like such an immature jerk for handling it the way I did"
Really though, know that your feelings are so valid! It makes a lot of sense why you feel the way you do!
Also, you've framed your boyfriend's response as if it were somehow you that were behaving irrationally (you're not) and your boyfriend is somehow just putting up with your 'crazy' 'irrational' behaviour.
He's been very understanding and gentle with me throughout all of this....
patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt
...this is something I would deal with in future relationships with men and that they wouldn't be as nice to me about it as he's been...
(This is maybe somewhat tangential but this Reductress article is totally on point)
posted by twill at 6:11 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
"...but which also makes me feel ridiculous for being upset..."
"I feel like all the insecurities are in my head and the more I think about everything, the worse I feel."
"I feel really stupid and like I'm not a good girlfriend at all for feeling this way."
"I feel like such an immature jerk for handling it the way I did"
Really though, know that your feelings are so valid! It makes a lot of sense why you feel the way you do!
Also, you've framed your boyfriend's response as if it were somehow you that were behaving irrationally (you're not) and your boyfriend is somehow just putting up with your 'crazy' 'irrational' behaviour.
He's been very understanding and gentle with me throughout all of this....
patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt
...this is something I would deal with in future relationships with men and that they wouldn't be as nice to me about it as he's been...
(This is maybe somewhat tangential but this Reductress article is totally on point)
posted by twill at 6:11 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sebmojo -- "I am not going to detail my self-pleasure habits to you" is not a lie. neither is "I follow these women's Instagram accounts because I like to see the pictures they post." Ideally he would not say those two sentences in quick succession, but if one must, one must.
But she doesn't unilaterally set the privacy settings of the relationship; he is responsible for agreeing to them, if he did. Hexenkunst -- I really feel for you, and I have a certain unhappy sentiment towards the Average Man myself, as I think many straight women do. but if a guy asked of me what you asked of him, I would laugh and tell him he can ask all he likes but he will never get an answer because it is none of his business and mystery is the soul of romance. plus, I am honest and faithful so I feel no obligation or reflex to over-disclose. This guy has a lot of choices; don't feel so bad about your emotional reactions that you start thinking of him as helpless in response to your demands. He can be respectful to you while disagreeing with you, or while wanting to renegotiate the way the two of you deal with these conversations. He has that power. You have the right to demand respect and honesty, no matter what, and he can stand up to you on other issues (like privacy, like the meaning of fidelity) without violating those principles.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:12 PM on May 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
But she doesn't unilaterally set the privacy settings of the relationship; he is responsible for agreeing to them, if he did. Hexenkunst -- I really feel for you, and I have a certain unhappy sentiment towards the Average Man myself, as I think many straight women do. but if a guy asked of me what you asked of him, I would laugh and tell him he can ask all he likes but he will never get an answer because it is none of his business and mystery is the soul of romance. plus, I am honest and faithful so I feel no obligation or reflex to over-disclose. This guy has a lot of choices; don't feel so bad about your emotional reactions that you start thinking of him as helpless in response to your demands. He can be respectful to you while disagreeing with you, or while wanting to renegotiate the way the two of you deal with these conversations. He has that power. You have the right to demand respect and honesty, no matter what, and he can stand up to you on other issues (like privacy, like the meaning of fidelity) without violating those principles.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:12 PM on May 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
I think that the fact your mind went to the truth just from seeing his feed might mean you have some other insecurities regarding this relationship. I know you say he treats you well, but are there any other incidents that make you feel bad like this did? Is there a common thread that maybe you guys could work on together? My husband used to be friends with a lot of his exes and it drove me bonkers, having to go to some woman's house who my partner used to have sex with, in the very house we're standing in even! I know lots of people, on MeFi and in general, see nothing wrong with that, but it made me feel awful. I felt like I was a newcomer to THEIR shared history and it just felt gross to me. We actually ran into his exes a lot and had a few overlapping friends and finally we moved 3,000 miles away and I've never been happier. Anyway, some people, like me and maybe you, don't do well with stuff like this. I'm fat and have been treated as disposable by men as a consequence, so I think being in a relationship and having to deal with Other Women feels like I will likely lose once again to the more attractive woman. Yeah insecurity is unattractive, but oh well, I'm not perfect.
You should decide what you want, and ask your boyfriend if he is amenable to that. If that means looking only at porn of strangers, looking at no porn, etc, you deserve to ask and he deserves to say yes or no. My husband decided that I mean more to him than his exes do, and we are really super happy now that this topic never has to come up again. Other folks do different stuff, but this works for us. I hope you find something that works for you!
P.S. For the record if my husband were looking at photos of women he actually knows and jerking off to them, I would be disgusted. Maybe he does it and I don't know, and I better never find out. I do not think you're wrong for being upset, and you deserve to feel how you feel, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. It's not great that there were apparently multiple women your partner worked with in a professional capacity and his main takeaway was that their Instagrams make good porn.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 6:15 PM on May 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
You should decide what you want, and ask your boyfriend if he is amenable to that. If that means looking only at porn of strangers, looking at no porn, etc, you deserve to ask and he deserves to say yes or no. My husband decided that I mean more to him than his exes do, and we are really super happy now that this topic never has to come up again. Other folks do different stuff, but this works for us. I hope you find something that works for you!
P.S. For the record if my husband were looking at photos of women he actually knows and jerking off to them, I would be disgusted. Maybe he does it and I don't know, and I better never find out. I do not think you're wrong for being upset, and you deserve to feel how you feel, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. It's not great that there were apparently multiple women your partner worked with in a professional capacity and his main takeaway was that their Instagrams make good porn.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 6:15 PM on May 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm going to suggest therapy. Not because anything is wrong with your feelings, but so you can have an opportunity to talk through your feelings with a caring, objective professional and decide what you want and where you want to draw boundaries in this area.
If you go this route, I'd suggest vetting thoroughly and doing initial visits to different therapists to see who you feel most comfortable discussing this with. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
If you go this route, I'd suggest vetting thoroughly and doing initial visits to different therapists to see who you feel most comfortable discussing this with. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
Wanking to pictures of strangers or porn actors on the internet is fine. Wanking to pictures of people you know and see at work or in the neighborhood regularly? Not so much. It's a violation of a sort.
Maybe he's never thought about how he thinks of women, what constitutes violating their trust or sense of safety, but here he is. At least some of his female friends or acquaintances would be very upset to know he jerks off to their Instagram pics. I bet most would, with a minority either feeling flattered or meh. Most of these women would no longer talk to him or be as friendly with him if they knew... So a good rule of thumb is not to do things you know would upset someone if they knew.
I like porn. Sure! I could not masturbate to pics of a coworker or neighbor.
At this juncture I'm going to agree that you stop minimizing how uncomfortable this makes you feel. It is kinda awful! Nobody is perfect and maybe he's just working through this issue for the first time? If he can see why these women might feel violated if they knew, and he's maturing around this issue - great! If you start seeing other ways he objectifies women regularly, dump him.
posted by jbenben at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
Maybe he's never thought about how he thinks of women, what constitutes violating their trust or sense of safety, but here he is. At least some of his female friends or acquaintances would be very upset to know he jerks off to their Instagram pics. I bet most would, with a minority either feeling flattered or meh. Most of these women would no longer talk to him or be as friendly with him if they knew... So a good rule of thumb is not to do things you know would upset someone if they knew.
I like porn. Sure! I could not masturbate to pics of a coworker or neighbor.
At this juncture I'm going to agree that you stop minimizing how uncomfortable this makes you feel. It is kinda awful! Nobody is perfect and maybe he's just working through this issue for the first time? If he can see why these women might feel violated if they knew, and he's maturing around this issue - great! If you start seeing other ways he objectifies women regularly, dump him.
posted by jbenben at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
I had a crying fit the minute I saw the list of most visited accounts because I already knew what it meant
I think this is important.
Without time to know anything other than what you knew, you had that visceral a reaction to it.
You're afraid that this is the best you can do and you want to stay with him on those grounds. That is math that women do, and you get to choose to do it. But I would strongly recommend you decide now, while you're still feeling your feelings, what the line would be for you with regard to his attitudes about and treatment of women. Because writing this stuff off can easily become a habit. And self-gaslighting is a thing, unfortunately, because we're all trained so well in it.
I've been married for nearly fifteen years, and discovering this kind of behavior, habitually, with his/our friends would be a source of a significant paradigm shift. I would expect to see him show his work in recovery by communicating to me about his increased understanding of misogyny and the extremely troublesome commoditization/cultural devaluation of women in our culture. Not just by unfriending his fave spank hotties because he got caught.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:27 PM on May 23, 2017 [25 favorites]
I think this is important.
Without time to know anything other than what you knew, you had that visceral a reaction to it.
You're afraid that this is the best you can do and you want to stay with him on those grounds. That is math that women do, and you get to choose to do it. But I would strongly recommend you decide now, while you're still feeling your feelings, what the line would be for you with regard to his attitudes about and treatment of women. Because writing this stuff off can easily become a habit. And self-gaslighting is a thing, unfortunately, because we're all trained so well in it.
I've been married for nearly fifteen years, and discovering this kind of behavior, habitually, with his/our friends would be a source of a significant paradigm shift. I would expect to see him show his work in recovery by communicating to me about his increased understanding of misogyny and the extremely troublesome commoditization/cultural devaluation of women in our culture. Not just by unfriending his fave spank hotties because he got caught.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:27 PM on May 23, 2017 [25 favorites]
Wanking to pictures of strangers or porn actors on the internet is fine. Wanking to pictures of people you know and see at work or in the neighborhood regularly? Not so much. It's a violation of a sort.
I'd like to give a dissenting opinion. I feel like this view rests on the assumption that to masturbate about someone is to necessarily objectify them. If this were true, then, yes, it might mean a person who does this is a creep who can't see the women he knows as anything but bodies and it would be less disrespectful for him to masturbate to literally and figuratively two-dimensional internet images of women he knows nothing else about.
In my experience, though, many people of all genders might enjoy masturbating while thinking about or viewing images of people they know precisely because it is more personal and the person's qualities other than looks are attractive. I've met many people who find pornography cold, impersonal, and unarousing for exactly this reason.
Now that doesn't mean that the masturbator has feelings for the women that are comparable to how he might feel about a partner. The emotional warmth that comes with being able to imagine a person's sense of humor and interesting ideas is still more one dimensional and more fantasy and aspiration than the intimacy that develops in a relationship, but it's not pure objectification.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'd like to give a dissenting opinion. I feel like this view rests on the assumption that to masturbate about someone is to necessarily objectify them. If this were true, then, yes, it might mean a person who does this is a creep who can't see the women he knows as anything but bodies and it would be less disrespectful for him to masturbate to literally and figuratively two-dimensional internet images of women he knows nothing else about.
In my experience, though, many people of all genders might enjoy masturbating while thinking about or viewing images of people they know precisely because it is more personal and the person's qualities other than looks are attractive. I've met many people who find pornography cold, impersonal, and unarousing for exactly this reason.
Now that doesn't mean that the masturbator has feelings for the women that are comparable to how he might feel about a partner. The emotional warmth that comes with being able to imagine a person's sense of humor and interesting ideas is still more one dimensional and more fantasy and aspiration than the intimacy that develops in a relationship, but it's not pure objectification.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
Sebmojo -- "I am not going to detail my self-pleasure habits to you" is not a lie. neither is "I follow these women's Instagram accounts because I like to see the pictures they post." Ideally he would not say those two sentences in quick succession, but if one must, one must
I think that could still be seen as a lie of sorts. I'm sure he wishes he'd said that, but he didn't, and a failure to perfectly thread a difficult interpersonal needle isn't in itself evidence of misogyny or bad faith.
The other day my boyfriend told me "that's none of your business" when I asked him about something very much related to this and I objected until he told me, then later he told me he wished I wouldn't do that, that I would just respect his answer.
posted by Sebmojo at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think that could still be seen as a lie of sorts. I'm sure he wishes he'd said that, but he didn't, and a failure to perfectly thread a difficult interpersonal needle isn't in itself evidence of misogyny or bad faith.
The other day my boyfriend told me "that's none of your business" when I asked him about something very much related to this and I objected until he told me, then later he told me he wished I wouldn't do that, that I would just respect his answer.
posted by Sebmojo at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
You're making me realize some things aren't really my business, especially if they don't affect me directly.
well, I mean...it is and it isn't. It's not wrong to have that kind of no-sharing-limits intimate relationship if that's what you really really want and need. it's just risky. the problem is there's a small number of people who want that, but another small number of people whose unfiltered truths are going to be ones you want to hear all of, and it's hard to find people who are perfectly sympatico. But I would hate to sound like I think you should change yourself in a direction that will not make you happier, just because it's what some other people do.
My main point, I guess (I have too many points and have left too many comments so this will be my last) is that whatever you decide to think about this, about sexuality in relationships in general, you're only responsible for your own principles and your own decisions, not for his. don't twist yourself up to excuse him and blame yourself for his actions and words, no matter what conclusions you come to about your own ideas and needs. don't feel bad, then feel guilty about feeling bad, then feel guilty about making him hurt you, you know? especially not the last one.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:37 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
well, I mean...it is and it isn't. It's not wrong to have that kind of no-sharing-limits intimate relationship if that's what you really really want and need. it's just risky. the problem is there's a small number of people who want that, but another small number of people whose unfiltered truths are going to be ones you want to hear all of, and it's hard to find people who are perfectly sympatico. But I would hate to sound like I think you should change yourself in a direction that will not make you happier, just because it's what some other people do.
My main point, I guess (I have too many points and have left too many comments so this will be my last) is that whatever you decide to think about this, about sexuality in relationships in general, you're only responsible for your own principles and your own decisions, not for his. don't twist yourself up to excuse him and blame yourself for his actions and words, no matter what conclusions you come to about your own ideas and needs. don't feel bad, then feel guilty about feeling bad, then feel guilty about making him hurt you, you know? especially not the last one.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:37 PM on May 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
You have discovered he has a serious character flaw, he objectifies women he knows personally. People who appear in porn want you to wank off to their image. Sally posting a pic of herself at brunch or at the beach is sharing her experiences with friends and followers to be friendly, not sexual. There's a difference.
Maybe this can spark a deeper conversation for you both and it turns into something good?
posted by jbenben at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
Maybe this can spark a deeper conversation for you both and it turns into something good?
posted by jbenben at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
Maybe this can spark a deeper conversation for you both and it turns into something good?
That's certainly a thing. Young men, especially if he happens to be white also, are mostly taught that whatever they want to do, whatever whim they have, that is fine and is their right, and some of them eventually figure out there's a bigger picture and a world with people in it who also matter (please see also the most recent emotional labor thread on the blue).
It is fine to tell him out loud that your expectation is that you're not going to continue to discover ways in which he does not know women aren't solely for his consumption, and that he should show his work. If he is actually aghast to realize he's a creep, this should be something he wants to do. That is the behavior of fundamentally good people: they want to be better and learn to do better.
If he doesn't, there's your answer.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:53 PM on May 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
That's certainly a thing. Young men, especially if he happens to be white also, are mostly taught that whatever they want to do, whatever whim they have, that is fine and is their right, and some of them eventually figure out there's a bigger picture and a world with people in it who also matter (please see also the most recent emotional labor thread on the blue).
It is fine to tell him out loud that your expectation is that you're not going to continue to discover ways in which he does not know women aren't solely for his consumption, and that he should show his work. If he is actually aghast to realize he's a creep, this should be something he wants to do. That is the behavior of fundamentally good people: they want to be better and learn to do better.
If he doesn't, there's your answer.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:53 PM on May 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think if you want this relationship to continue, you need to establish some rules around it. (Well, first you need to decide if you want to be in a relationship that requires you to set up such rules in the first place.) For a start, it might be that he discontinues following these instagram friends. Then you need to decide whether or not you want to become the thought police on these topics.
You seem to be grilling him on his personal, uh, habits. Once you establish that you're really uncomfortable with what he's been doing and ask him to stop, are you going to trust him and leave it at that or will it take you constantly checking to make you secure again? Will you ever be secure? Is it ok for him to still think about these women and not tell you? Do you want him to lie when you ask? Or will the only thing that makes you feel better be him banishing any sexual thought at all about his friends - because that might not be possible for him to do. You basically need to work out a) what you need to get trust back b) what he's prepared to do c) if he can even achieve it and will it be enough.
Note that I'm not telling you what you should want or he should do, (I'm merely posing questions about what these might be) that's between you two. Everybody has sexual thoughts, you (rightly so) don't like how he's expressed his and the effect it's having on you. It's now up to you to ask for what you need to move past it.
posted by Jubey at 7:02 PM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
You seem to be grilling him on his personal, uh, habits. Once you establish that you're really uncomfortable with what he's been doing and ask him to stop, are you going to trust him and leave it at that or will it take you constantly checking to make you secure again? Will you ever be secure? Is it ok for him to still think about these women and not tell you? Do you want him to lie when you ask? Or will the only thing that makes you feel better be him banishing any sexual thought at all about his friends - because that might not be possible for him to do. You basically need to work out a) what you need to get trust back b) what he's prepared to do c) if he can even achieve it and will it be enough.
Note that I'm not telling you what you should want or he should do, (I'm merely posing questions about what these might be) that's between you two. Everybody has sexual thoughts, you (rightly so) don't like how he's expressed his and the effect it's having on you. It's now up to you to ask for what you need to move past it.
posted by Jubey at 7:02 PM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
You have a lot of wounds from past partners and you're under the impression that pushing for answers you're unprepared to deal with will protect you from future wounds. This isn't true. Don't nail your current boyfriend to the wall for the sins of those who came before him.
Perhaps you pushed too far with this pursuit for truth with this boyfriend and maybe you can't recover from knowing this information despite the fact that he sounds like he really cares for you. If that's the case, break up. If you think you can get past this totally normal masturbation habit, then do that. His mistake is telling you something you were unprepared to deal with. People have masturbation and fantasy lives that can be complex, problematic, and difficult to understand. Those things are probably best left private, but you cried and pushed, so he shared. He shouldn't have. Lots of healthy and loving couples choose not to share detailed sexual histories and masturbation fantasies and that's a perfectly normal and healthy option.
If you have past wounds and current insecurities, maybe consider working through them in therapy. Don't corner and then punish your partners and put yourself through unnecessary pain and suffering.
posted by quince at 7:05 PM on May 23, 2017 [17 favorites]
Perhaps you pushed too far with this pursuit for truth with this boyfriend and maybe you can't recover from knowing this information despite the fact that he sounds like he really cares for you. If that's the case, break up. If you think you can get past this totally normal masturbation habit, then do that. His mistake is telling you something you were unprepared to deal with. People have masturbation and fantasy lives that can be complex, problematic, and difficult to understand. Those things are probably best left private, but you cried and pushed, so he shared. He shouldn't have. Lots of healthy and loving couples choose not to share detailed sexual histories and masturbation fantasies and that's a perfectly normal and healthy option.
If you have past wounds and current insecurities, maybe consider working through them in therapy. Don't corner and then punish your partners and put yourself through unnecessary pain and suffering.
posted by quince at 7:05 PM on May 23, 2017 [17 favorites]
The other day my boyfriend told me "that's none of your business" when I asked him about something very much related to this and I objected until he told me, then later he told me he wished I wouldn't do that, that I would just respect his answer.
I'd recommend meditating on that. Also you might ponder what sort of AskMe question he could have written about you today.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:09 PM on May 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'd recommend meditating on that. Also you might ponder what sort of AskMe question he could have written about you today.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:09 PM on May 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Best answer: With the caveat that I'm a gay dude and the power dynamics are different, I don't think it's necessarily creepy or a red flag to fantasize about people you know IRL. The key points are that they shouldn't be aware of it, and that the person having the fantasy should be able to strictly separate those fantasies from reality. In some ways I think it might actually be less intrinsically exploitative to think of someone you know, rather than paying a sex worker to look at pictures of them (I'm not saying I think that's intrinsically wrong either, fwiw -- I just don't think one's obviously better). I'm not saying you have to be okay with it, of course: your boundaries are your own and you don't have to justify feeling a particular way about it. But I do think that there's an important ethical distinction to be drawn there.
I also agree that it's probably best to avoid putting people you care about in a double bind, where both lying and telling the truth are unacceptable (though don't beat yourself up about it either).
On the other hand... one thing that does seem hinky about what he was doing is that there were actually public, visible consequences to him refreshing their feeds so often, or else you would never have noticed. And I do think that's particularly important since you might know some of these people. Is it possible that's the part that seems weird and inappropriate to you -- the leaving a "paper trail," more than the fantasies themselves?
Whatever the main source of your feelings, so far, to me, it sounds like more like "an issue but not something you guys can't work through, if you decide you want to go in that direction" than "a giant red flag, break up with him now." But of course it's your relationship and you don't need a "good reason" to end it if you ultimately just don't feel right about it, or if as Waiting for Pierce Inverarity said above, you feel like it's the visible tip of a creepy iceberg in a way you can't quite articulate.
If you can find a therapist you guys both trust, a couple of sessions as a couple might be a good option. How that goes could also be informative to you about whether or not you want to stay in the relationship or not.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:26 PM on May 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
I also agree that it's probably best to avoid putting people you care about in a double bind, where both lying and telling the truth are unacceptable (though don't beat yourself up about it either).
On the other hand... one thing that does seem hinky about what he was doing is that there were actually public, visible consequences to him refreshing their feeds so often, or else you would never have noticed. And I do think that's particularly important since you might know some of these people. Is it possible that's the part that seems weird and inappropriate to you -- the leaving a "paper trail," more than the fantasies themselves?
Whatever the main source of your feelings, so far, to me, it sounds like more like "an issue but not something you guys can't work through, if you decide you want to go in that direction" than "a giant red flag, break up with him now." But of course it's your relationship and you don't need a "good reason" to end it if you ultimately just don't feel right about it, or if as Waiting for Pierce Inverarity said above, you feel like it's the visible tip of a creepy iceberg in a way you can't quite articulate.
If you can find a therapist you guys both trust, a couple of sessions as a couple might be a good option. How that goes could also be informative to you about whether or not you want to stay in the relationship or not.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:26 PM on May 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
FWIW I think you've engaged with this difficult scenario in an honest way, you're embodying the honesty you're demanding of your boyfriend. I hope you can both work it through.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:33 PM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 7:33 PM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Please stop trying to convince yourself that your emotions are somehow wrong or bad or make you a bad person. You aren't a bad person. Your feelings are normal. Being upset by your partner's masturbation habits is an ok and allowed feeling.
I feel sick to my stomach that our culture has become almost "sex obligatory", where so many women experience guilt and shame over their normal and acceptable emotions because they believe feeling negatively about someone else's sexual activities is taboo, judgemental, bigoted, or otherwise evil, even if that person is their partner.
There's no need to feel guilty about your boundaries, even ones you didn't know existed until they were breached.
You are not under any obligation to be okay with this, or any other sexual activity, with regards to yourself or your intimate partner. Ever.
This isn't a hypothetical, this is the real life person that you are real life intimate with. Your feelings are ok and acceptable, no matter what the reason for them is. You don't have to justify them. You don't have to make them go away. You aren't a bad person and you have nothing to feel guilty for.
Whether or not you are able or willing to work through this and stay with this guy is up to you, but you aren't required to. You're not "unenlightened" or "uptight" or some such bullshit because this bothers you. You're normal. The fact that it wouldn't bother everyone doesn't mean it's not ok for it to bother you.
If you choose to try to work through this, I'd suggest going to a couple's therapist together.
posted by windykites at 7:53 PM on May 23, 2017 [22 favorites]
I feel sick to my stomach that our culture has become almost "sex obligatory", where so many women experience guilt and shame over their normal and acceptable emotions because they believe feeling negatively about someone else's sexual activities is taboo, judgemental, bigoted, or otherwise evil, even if that person is their partner.
There's no need to feel guilty about your boundaries, even ones you didn't know existed until they were breached.
You are not under any obligation to be okay with this, or any other sexual activity, with regards to yourself or your intimate partner. Ever.
This isn't a hypothetical, this is the real life person that you are real life intimate with. Your feelings are ok and acceptable, no matter what the reason for them is. You don't have to justify them. You don't have to make them go away. You aren't a bad person and you have nothing to feel guilty for.
Whether or not you are able or willing to work through this and stay with this guy is up to you, but you aren't required to. You're not "unenlightened" or "uptight" or some such bullshit because this bothers you. You're normal. The fact that it wouldn't bother everyone doesn't mean it's not ok for it to bother you.
If you choose to try to work through this, I'd suggest going to a couple's therapist together.
posted by windykites at 7:53 PM on May 23, 2017 [22 favorites]
Ugh, so I went through a very similar thing about a year ago. His computer started making noises, I opened it up to turn the volume down, and I saw a folder on his desktop with dozens of pictures of women we knew (both his and my friends) in swimsuits.
Honestly, I couldn't get past it. The objectifying of our friends, the lack of consent, and the general creepiness made me like him less, and I also felt really insecure and inadequate. I wish I had left soon - I hung around for about 8 months after that and was just trying to will myself to not care.
It's okay if this is unacceptable to you. It's definitely okay to break up with him about it. Good luck.
posted by superlibby at 9:57 PM on May 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Honestly, I couldn't get past it. The objectifying of our friends, the lack of consent, and the general creepiness made me like him less, and I also felt really insecure and inadequate. I wish I had left soon - I hung around for about 8 months after that and was just trying to will myself to not care.
It's okay if this is unacceptable to you. It's definitely okay to break up with him about it. Good luck.
posted by superlibby at 9:57 PM on May 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Reality is...giuys masturbate to porn and to real people they see in their real lives. And they do it whether others know it or not. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I don't think it justifies any sort of cheating or even less feelings for you. Most guys masturbate. Nothing more to say.
posted by ljs30 at 10:01 PM on May 23, 2017
posted by ljs30 at 10:01 PM on May 23, 2017
Best answer: I had a partner who did something very similar to what yours did, but my reaction was a bit different. He too was trolling the internet for masturbatory material of women he could see and speak to in real life. He saw nothing wrong with it and admitted that it was 'a little creepy' but that it excited him to think about real women and not porn stars. These were women who worked locally in a coffee shop; the premise was sort of a babes who serve coffee kind of thing. He would look them up on social media and save their pictures on his phone to jerk off to. My reaction to this trolling was disgust, rather than insecurity. It just killed my desire for him. He would make sexual advances toward me and I would immediately feel grossed out and like he didn't deserve my body, because he was pouring over images of other women's bodies and getting off to them, so why should I let him touch me? He didn't deserve to play with me. That's how I felt. I wanted to be with a man who felt lucky to be with me, and who couldn't keep his hands off of me and who thought about me, not random other women. It made me angry, and it made him repulsive to me. It was about fidelity for me, and it was about me being the woman of my partner's dreams, and he wasn't behaving accordingly in my way of thinking. So if you're a stickler for fidelity in all forms, emotional, physical, etc. then you'll always feel this way about porn and lustful behavior that isn't directed toward you. For me, the aforementioned behavior turns me off and the guy becomes undesirable to me. My partner lost all of his value when I found it. It made me feel like he was common and boring, and that he wasn't discerning enough. That he would share his body with all of the women he'd been lusting after, made him cheap to me. Why would I want to be with the town bicycle? If any decent looking girl could ride him, where was his value to me? I didn't want him. In fact I dumped him. He begged me for a second chance and explained that he had developed the habit of masturbating to these women as a bachelor, and that it was something he absolutely didn't want to continue to do if it disgusted me. He stopped altogether and focused his sexual attention onto me after that (transparency became a thing, no secret passwords or vanishing browsing history, I had access to everything). He never 'relapsed' so I assume he re-wired his bachelor brain to comply with what I expected of his paired-up brain. We had a great relationship. So it isn't impossible to come back from such grave disappointment. If he knows how you feel, and if he doesn't feel stifled by what you expect of him, then you can recover.
posted by Avosunspin at 11:16 PM on May 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Avosunspin at 11:16 PM on May 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I'd be hurt, too, if I found out my partner was getting off to images of other women. It would make me feel insecure for awhile. I think I'd next go to a place of "look, if you'd rather be with them, then fine, go do that. Or if you want to put me first, then great." (And then we could talk about what that meant to us both.)
And, it seems he does want to put you first, given how much dialogue and action he's devoted to trying to move beyond this. In fact, what you've said here actually gives me a relatively decent view of your partner. Yes, the original thing makes me say "ew, ugh." But it sounds like he's taken clear steps to correct his original mistake and also really been patient, open, flexible, devoted, communicative, and caring. So I'm willing to trust you that he's generally not creepy, aside from being too honest about this.
I'm also willing to believe you when you say that the problem is that you have trust issues and are obsessing over this a bit. It's hard to discern "I'm anxious for good reason and need to stop denying my own feelings" vs. "I'm anxious because of my own issues, and need to get a handle on my obsessive thoughts and reassurance seeking." But what you describe does sound like a really typical anxiety / obsessive pattern to me. I'd that's the case, having the self awareness to recognize this and own your part in it is really good. If you are obsessing over something you don't want to obsess about, especially if this is something you see as a pattern in your life beyond just him, then maybe talking to a therapist is a good idea. There are also a number of good books on the topic. Because yes, if you're right that the issue here is your anxiety, then no amount of reassurance or disclosure will help.
I'm sorry for what happened to you before. Ultimately there's no way for you to prevent the pain of losing someone or being cheated on again. The world is uncertain.
Only you can decide between trusting this person and respecting his privacy (no more intrusive questions that just make you feel worse) or breaking up and finding someone else, but I think those are your two options -- staying with him but trying to create a sense of security by "constantly seeking reassurance," "asking or prodding," or educating him don't seem like real options to me.
Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:32 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
And, it seems he does want to put you first, given how much dialogue and action he's devoted to trying to move beyond this. In fact, what you've said here actually gives me a relatively decent view of your partner. Yes, the original thing makes me say "ew, ugh." But it sounds like he's taken clear steps to correct his original mistake and also really been patient, open, flexible, devoted, communicative, and caring. So I'm willing to trust you that he's generally not creepy, aside from being too honest about this.
I'm also willing to believe you when you say that the problem is that you have trust issues and are obsessing over this a bit. It's hard to discern "I'm anxious for good reason and need to stop denying my own feelings" vs. "I'm anxious because of my own issues, and need to get a handle on my obsessive thoughts and reassurance seeking." But what you describe does sound like a really typical anxiety / obsessive pattern to me. I'd that's the case, having the self awareness to recognize this and own your part in it is really good. If you are obsessing over something you don't want to obsess about, especially if this is something you see as a pattern in your life beyond just him, then maybe talking to a therapist is a good idea. There are also a number of good books on the topic. Because yes, if you're right that the issue here is your anxiety, then no amount of reassurance or disclosure will help.
I'm sorry for what happened to you before. Ultimately there's no way for you to prevent the pain of losing someone or being cheated on again. The world is uncertain.
Only you can decide between trusting this person and respecting his privacy (no more intrusive questions that just make you feel worse) or breaking up and finding someone else, but I think those are your two options -- staying with him but trying to create a sense of security by "constantly seeking reassurance," "asking or prodding," or educating him don't seem like real options to me.
Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:32 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I disagree with the harshness towards your boyfriend. Masturbation is normal. Fantasies are normal. Fantasizing about people you know is normal. Looking at pictures on Instagram feels a little weird, but we used to look at "pictures" in our imagination and I think it's a 2017 variant of the time-honored practice of "fantasizing about someone you know." I don't think anyone is damaged merely by being the object of a fantasy. In fact, I think most porn is more unethical because many people in porn have tragic work conditions. At least when you're masturbating to an Instagram post you don't have to worry that the person in the photo is actually trafficked.
I think if you broke up with your boyfriend, you might get some relief because you wouldn't be tormented with this set of bad Instagram feelings anymore. But your next partner would be very, very likely to also have fantasies and probably also fantasies about people you know. That is just a natural part of life. Of course, with the next partner you wouldn't necessarily have to find out and that would be a blessing.
The most important thing here isn't your current relationship, I think -- it's your previous relationship and the scars it's left for you. Learning about this Instagram fantasy thing might make a lot of people feel weird, but the way you are feeling inadequate and distressed months later is a crap inheritance that comes from your ex. Can you find a way to process that old relationship? Because no matter what you do with Current Boyfriend, working through some of the stuff from Ex Boyfriend is going to make your romantic future smoother. You deserve to feel better than this! I googled and found a book called "Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder" -- maybe a book like that could help, or the time-honored MeFi recommendation of therapy :)
posted by sockkitude at 2:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think if you broke up with your boyfriend, you might get some relief because you wouldn't be tormented with this set of bad Instagram feelings anymore. But your next partner would be very, very likely to also have fantasies and probably also fantasies about people you know. That is just a natural part of life. Of course, with the next partner you wouldn't necessarily have to find out and that would be a blessing.
The most important thing here isn't your current relationship, I think -- it's your previous relationship and the scars it's left for you. Learning about this Instagram fantasy thing might make a lot of people feel weird, but the way you are feeling inadequate and distressed months later is a crap inheritance that comes from your ex. Can you find a way to process that old relationship? Because no matter what you do with Current Boyfriend, working through some of the stuff from Ex Boyfriend is going to make your romantic future smoother. You deserve to feel better than this! I googled and found a book called "Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder" -- maybe a book like that could help, or the time-honored MeFi recommendation of therapy :)
posted by sockkitude at 2:27 AM on May 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Just as a quick reminder, the purpose of Ask Metafilter is not for discussion, debate, or "my opinion about the general topic," but rather to answer the OP's specific question in a helpful way. In this case the question is "Is this something that can realistically be resolved and dealt with?" not "is it okay to masturbate to images of people you know," or similar. Please keep this in mind, and answer in a way to help OP answer their question. Also, hexenkunst, Ask Me is not meant to be a back and forth conversation, so while it's fine to answer questions, or clarify if something has been misunderstood, generally it's better just to relax, take in the advice, and pick and choose what's useful for you. Thanks all.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:00 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:00 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I totally agree with sokkitude. You clearly love your boyfriend as demonstrated by your follow up comments. You describe him as a "kind and sweet man" who loves you and is attracted to you. You state that he has made sincere efforts to allay your fears and has apologized. If you value this relationship (he obviously does), do not let your anxieties push you to obsess over your partner's thoughts, sexual or otherwise. Do not browbeat him into revealing his private desires. Develop trust in him by noting how he treats you. He is not your previous lousy bf. Let that one go and enjoy this one.
posted by Aha moment at 5:28 AM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Aha moment at 5:28 AM on May 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
Best answer: This doesn't faze me much. The stuff that turns on human beings can get so much weirder than this. As you mentioned, most of us have at least thought about someone we know casually in a sexual way. It doesn't necessarily creep me out that he looked at a non-sexual picture as a jumping off point for fantasy - I can think of a 100000 creepier things that exist in porn - but it's a little sad to me. I fall into the category of avosunspin - if anything I find it a little pathetic, like a teenager who is so desperate for sex that he makes dumb sex jokes at every turn or, to use a very exaggerated movie example, masturbates in an apple pie.
You are free to decide this behavior bothers you enough to break up. You can also say, eh, my bf got off from this thing I kind of don't get, but I'm happy and fulfilled. I can live with that. There is no right answer.
Your boyfriend's masturbation habits belong to him. You need to separate that out from YOUR value on any level. They aren't connected. You will absolutely lose your mind in this relationship and any other subsequent one if you allow your worth and attractiveness to be measured solely by someone else, either by their sexual impulse or other subjective judgment.
posted by amycup at 7:32 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
You are free to decide this behavior bothers you enough to break up. You can also say, eh, my bf got off from this thing I kind of don't get, but I'm happy and fulfilled. I can live with that. There is no right answer.
Your boyfriend's masturbation habits belong to him. You need to separate that out from YOUR value on any level. They aren't connected. You will absolutely lose your mind in this relationship and any other subsequent one if you allow your worth and attractiveness to be measured solely by someone else, either by their sexual impulse or other subjective judgment.
posted by amycup at 7:32 AM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Looking at pictures shared freely and publicly online is not a violation of consent, even if one's looking at them as a masturbation aid.
tried to reassure me by lying about jerking off to her
Are you reading dishonesty into his behavior, or did he eventually tell you he was lying?
I've been through a bit of couples' counseling for my jealousy issues. What a therapist may ask you is that, if this knowledge of your boyfriend's masturbation habits upset you, does it upset you enough that you can't get over it? Is it a deal breaker? If you don't think it's a deal breaker, or if you're not sure, you can probably get some benefit out of talking with a therapist. If you think it isn't something you can get past, then you probably need to say that to yourself--and to your boyfriend.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:40 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
tried to reassure me by lying about jerking off to her
Are you reading dishonesty into his behavior, or did he eventually tell you he was lying?
I've been through a bit of couples' counseling for my jealousy issues. What a therapist may ask you is that, if this knowledge of your boyfriend's masturbation habits upset you, does it upset you enough that you can't get over it? Is it a deal breaker? If you don't think it's a deal breaker, or if you're not sure, you can probably get some benefit out of talking with a therapist. If you think it isn't something you can get past, then you probably need to say that to yourself--and to your boyfriend.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:40 AM on May 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of strands here but ultimately what you have done is uncovered two things about yourself:
- you require a relationship in which most intimate things are freely shared
- you have correctly assessed this relationship as **not being that kind of relationship**
You're not wrong that you have brought some of your own baggage into this relationship, and that it has driven you to do some unhealthy things that made your partner uncomfortable. But a) you don't have to stay in a relationship to do "penance" or whatever for that, and b) your baggage may actually be best worked through outside of a relationship.
Unless you're 85 with a terminal diagnosis, I'm gonna say the odds are you'll meet another viable relationship candidate in your life. Dump this dude, and spend the time alone working to become the kind of person you want to be, and learning to accept and honor what you are and what you need.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on May 24, 2017
- you require a relationship in which most intimate things are freely shared
- you have correctly assessed this relationship as **not being that kind of relationship**
You're not wrong that you have brought some of your own baggage into this relationship, and that it has driven you to do some unhealthy things that made your partner uncomfortable. But a) you don't have to stay in a relationship to do "penance" or whatever for that, and b) your baggage may actually be best worked through outside of a relationship.
Unless you're 85 with a terminal diagnosis, I'm gonna say the odds are you'll meet another viable relationship candidate in your life. Dump this dude, and spend the time alone working to become the kind of person you want to be, and learning to accept and honor what you are and what you need.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on May 24, 2017
Best answer: Dear OP, that you are upset doesn't strike me as silly. But I am shocked by the number of folks here declaring that your boyfriend is a creep.
Your boyfriend's masturbation habits belong to him. You need to separate that out from YOUR value on any level. They aren't connected.
Quoting amycup for fucking truth. A bunch of people posting may not regard themselves as sex negative but they certainly sound sex negative. Consider calling sex columnist Dan Savage at 206-201-2720 to ask him your question (and be sure to leave your phone number) rather than relying on me or other MF strangers to give you advice on this. As it happens, I'm kinky. Not in an unusual way (unlike these poor bastards who are sexually excited by cars only, totally NSFW) but in a pretty common way. I used to feel shitty and shamed about it until I met other people with similar kinks and realised I'm not a terrible feminist or human being because of the things that arouse me.
Your boyfriend isn't hurting any of these women. Break up with him if you want, but I've left the Southern Baptist church. I think the idea of sinning in your heart is bullshit and thought-crime patrols are misguided. I don't think your boyfriend is creepy, I think he's human in a range-of-normal way. How he masturbates alone is his business alone, as long as he's not hurting anyone deliberately. Also: He's not responsible for your feelings about how he masturbates; that's really on you (again, assuming he is not hurting anyone and I disagree that wanking off to public pictures of people you know constitutes harm).
So yes, see a therapist (and shop around if you don't click with the first one, two, or three). Call Dan Savage to see what he says. And please cut both yourself and your boyfriend some slack if you possibly can. People do this--it's a thing and it's not a horrible thing.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:07 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Your boyfriend's masturbation habits belong to him. You need to separate that out from YOUR value on any level. They aren't connected.
Quoting amycup for fucking truth. A bunch of people posting may not regard themselves as sex negative but they certainly sound sex negative. Consider calling sex columnist Dan Savage at 206-201-2720 to ask him your question (and be sure to leave your phone number) rather than relying on me or other MF strangers to give you advice on this. As it happens, I'm kinky. Not in an unusual way (unlike these poor bastards who are sexually excited by cars only, totally NSFW) but in a pretty common way. I used to feel shitty and shamed about it until I met other people with similar kinks and realised I'm not a terrible feminist or human being because of the things that arouse me.
Your boyfriend isn't hurting any of these women. Break up with him if you want, but I've left the Southern Baptist church. I think the idea of sinning in your heart is bullshit and thought-crime patrols are misguided. I don't think your boyfriend is creepy, I think he's human in a range-of-normal way. How he masturbates alone is his business alone, as long as he's not hurting anyone deliberately. Also: He's not responsible for your feelings about how he masturbates; that's really on you (again, assuming he is not hurting anyone and I disagree that wanking off to public pictures of people you know constitutes harm).
So yes, see a therapist (and shop around if you don't click with the first one, two, or three). Call Dan Savage to see what he says. And please cut both yourself and your boyfriend some slack if you possibly can. People do this--it's a thing and it's not a horrible thing.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:07 AM on May 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
It sucks that you found out about this, but I cannot find anything creepy about it. I (married female) definitely do this with images of coworkers in my head and other people I know. My husband almost certainly does it too and that's fine with me (although I do NOT want to know who, like you I would never be able to get that out of my head). But ultimately, it's just fantasy.
posted by kitcat at 10:09 AM on May 24, 2017
posted by kitcat at 10:09 AM on May 24, 2017
I conferred with my partner on this, and we agree. He was an idiot... for telling you. The two of you have learned a valuable lesson here, but understanding which lesson is what may help you move past this (together or otherwise).
Indiscriminate honesty is not an absolute good. Being honest with someone, when the only effect will be to hurt the other person, is not a kindness. If it builds any strength in your relationship it will be as a accidental side effect of unnecessary pain. People who love each other don't put their partners in unnecessary pain.
And on a side note, other people don't have the power to fix your insecurities. The two of you can (and maybe should) avoid the things that will trigger those feelings in you, but it's still ultimately something you need to resolve for yourself. People can help, but no one can do it for you.
posted by danny the boy at 10:25 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Indiscriminate honesty is not an absolute good. Being honest with someone, when the only effect will be to hurt the other person, is not a kindness. If it builds any strength in your relationship it will be as a accidental side effect of unnecessary pain. People who love each other don't put their partners in unnecessary pain.
And on a side note, other people don't have the power to fix your insecurities. The two of you can (and maybe should) avoid the things that will trigger those feelings in you, but it's still ultimately something you need to resolve for yourself. People can help, but no one can do it for you.
posted by danny the boy at 10:25 AM on May 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I saw his most visited Instagram accounts, all of which happened to be his attractive (former) female coworkers. My profile was the top one, but when I saw it something about it just bothered me and so I asked him about it, knowing deep down what it meant.
See, this makes me think that you actually weren't all that happy in your relationship. Looking at his Instagram feed and then immediately knowing it meant he was masturbating to these images indicates you had suspicions about him and were looking for evidence to prove your thoughts right.
So I'd ask you to honestly consider if you really did love and trust this guy. I think maybe you didn't.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:47 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
See, this makes me think that you actually weren't all that happy in your relationship. Looking at his Instagram feed and then immediately knowing it meant he was masturbating to these images indicates you had suspicions about him and were looking for evidence to prove your thoughts right.
So I'd ask you to honestly consider if you really did love and trust this guy. I think maybe you didn't.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:47 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
There are two issues here - an issue of sexual fantasies and an issue of Instagram accounts. The resolution of these two issues is completely opposite; so, to answer your stated questions:
1) The fantasies, or: How do I deal with my boyfriend's masturbation habits? Therapy. Our fantasy life is private and very personal. Everyone has sexual fantasies, and many of us have sexual fantasies of people we know. I do, your boyfriend does, many people in this thread do, heck, even you do! Your anxiety about this is extreme and therapy can help with that.
and
2) The Instagram feeds, or: Is this something that can realistically be resolved and dealt with? No. Not everyone looks at pictures of their clothed acquaintances and fantasizes. That's . . . not really ok. Like, I can't think of a way in which someone looking at my pictures of me with my cats, eating at a restaurant, or going to the beach, and then jerking off to it, is not creepy and abnormal. You can't bring your private, personal fantasies out into a public space like that; it would be like pulling your pants down in the middle of the street and pooping or something. You can't leave a paper trail (Internet trail?) of your private fantasies out in public where people can find them. I am not sure why your boyfriend doesn't understand this but it doesn't bode well for resolving this. You should probably break up with him.
also
2a) Your relationship, or: I had a crying fit the minute I saw the list of most visited accounts because I already knew what it meant. Also not normal. Why? How did you know? If you feared it very very strongly because of your anxiety, go to therapy. If you knew it down to your bones because it is in character for your boyfriend, uhhhhh, break up with him. There's just absolutely no way I would wonder that there was something nefarious about my husband having a lot of women's accounts in his Instagram feed. It would never cross my mind. And I have anxiety!
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2017
1) The fantasies, or: How do I deal with my boyfriend's masturbation habits? Therapy. Our fantasy life is private and very personal. Everyone has sexual fantasies, and many of us have sexual fantasies of people we know. I do, your boyfriend does, many people in this thread do, heck, even you do! Your anxiety about this is extreme and therapy can help with that.
and
2) The Instagram feeds, or: Is this something that can realistically be resolved and dealt with? No. Not everyone looks at pictures of their clothed acquaintances and fantasizes. That's . . . not really ok. Like, I can't think of a way in which someone looking at my pictures of me with my cats, eating at a restaurant, or going to the beach, and then jerking off to it, is not creepy and abnormal. You can't bring your private, personal fantasies out into a public space like that; it would be like pulling your pants down in the middle of the street and pooping or something. You can't leave a paper trail (Internet trail?) of your private fantasies out in public where people can find them. I am not sure why your boyfriend doesn't understand this but it doesn't bode well for resolving this. You should probably break up with him.
also
2a) Your relationship, or: I had a crying fit the minute I saw the list of most visited accounts because I already knew what it meant. Also not normal. Why? How did you know? If you feared it very very strongly because of your anxiety, go to therapy. If you knew it down to your bones because it is in character for your boyfriend, uhhhhh, break up with him. There's just absolutely no way I would wonder that there was something nefarious about my husband having a lot of women's accounts in his Instagram feed. It would never cross my mind. And I have anxiety!
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2017
First of all, I'm going to set aside your comment that he was "lying," because as other commenters have said, it's unclear what this means, and whether this is something you know or just an assumption.
he felt it was harmless because they were just fantasies in his head that ended when he was done. He didn't feel as though it affected his feelings for me, and it was a private thing.
He is absolutely right, and the commenters calling this "creepy" are giving you bad advice that could harm your current and possibly future relationship. As the mod said, we're supposed to be focusing on helping you, not having an abstract moral debate. So whether or not there's any theoretically valid social critique to be made of men's masturbation habits, that's not the most relevant thing to you, in your personal life.
Whether it's a wonderful thing or not, let's get real: men do this. You might wish they didn't, but they do. If you want to date men — not just him, but any man — you should learn to accept this. Trying to prevent men from doing this is a lost cause, and one that wouldn't be worth fighting even if it could conceivably be won. No one needs anyone's "consent" to masturbate to a photo. The only creepy thing would be to ask for such consent. It's an open secret that doing it without asking is something that happens all the time. It doesn't hurt anyone, and many (perhaps most) people would prefer to know that some people masturbate to their photos than to think no one does.
You are dramatically overreacting to this, and you need a reality check. Normal, straight men, who are in good sexual health, masturbate. And since men are visual creatures (yes, it's a stereotype — but it's true), men masturbate while staring at pictures, whether on a screen or in their minds. And they fantasize about attractive women they know.
If you try to look for a man who'll claim not to do these things, he'll probably be lying — and if he isn't lying, that would mean he isn't a straight man with a well-functioning sex drive. Not that there's anything wrong with that! But presumably, a straight man with a well-functioning sex drive is the kind of person you want to be able to date. Making that a deal-killer could have a devastating effect on your love life, and not just this relationship.
There are things men do that annoy women, just like there are things women do that annoy men. I'm not saying men/women don't have a right to complain about these things to their partners. You do have that right. But it's not realistic to think you can stop him from ever masturbating using images — digital or mental — of women he knows other than his girlfriend.
If he or any other man told you he'd do that, you could assume he's lying.
And if he were to somehow transform into someone who never masturbates to women he knows other than his girlfriend, that would probably involve turning into someone so lacking in sexuality that you'd no longer find him sexy. You were only attracted to him in the first place because he's a sexual being, and men who are sexual (as opposed to being asexual, or having unusually low libidos, etc.), fantasize about random women they know.
He's taken a lot of steps to make me feel comfortable which is why I feel incredibly guilty for not being able to let this go. He … patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt.… I can tell my boyfriend loves me and cares about me and is very attracted to me…
What a creep! DTMFA!
Just kidding. Your boyfriend sounds like a normal person who responded in a fairly sensitive, intelligent way to your concerns. Obviously it's up to you whether to leave him or give him an ultimatum over this. But I'd think very hard before doing that. Remember, "the best is the enemy of the good" — the perfect man (or woman) doesn't exist. It generally works better to focus on dealing with reality than to despair over the fact that reality isn't exactly as you'd like it to be.
posted by jejune at 7:46 PM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
he felt it was harmless because they were just fantasies in his head that ended when he was done. He didn't feel as though it affected his feelings for me, and it was a private thing.
He is absolutely right, and the commenters calling this "creepy" are giving you bad advice that could harm your current and possibly future relationship. As the mod said, we're supposed to be focusing on helping you, not having an abstract moral debate. So whether or not there's any theoretically valid social critique to be made of men's masturbation habits, that's not the most relevant thing to you, in your personal life.
Whether it's a wonderful thing or not, let's get real: men do this. You might wish they didn't, but they do. If you want to date men — not just him, but any man — you should learn to accept this. Trying to prevent men from doing this is a lost cause, and one that wouldn't be worth fighting even if it could conceivably be won. No one needs anyone's "consent" to masturbate to a photo. The only creepy thing would be to ask for such consent. It's an open secret that doing it without asking is something that happens all the time. It doesn't hurt anyone, and many (perhaps most) people would prefer to know that some people masturbate to their photos than to think no one does.
You are dramatically overreacting to this, and you need a reality check. Normal, straight men, who are in good sexual health, masturbate. And since men are visual creatures (yes, it's a stereotype — but it's true), men masturbate while staring at pictures, whether on a screen or in their minds. And they fantasize about attractive women they know.
If you try to look for a man who'll claim not to do these things, he'll probably be lying — and if he isn't lying, that would mean he isn't a straight man with a well-functioning sex drive. Not that there's anything wrong with that! But presumably, a straight man with a well-functioning sex drive is the kind of person you want to be able to date. Making that a deal-killer could have a devastating effect on your love life, and not just this relationship.
There are things men do that annoy women, just like there are things women do that annoy men. I'm not saying men/women don't have a right to complain about these things to their partners. You do have that right. But it's not realistic to think you can stop him from ever masturbating using images — digital or mental — of women he knows other than his girlfriend.
If he or any other man told you he'd do that, you could assume he's lying.
And if he were to somehow transform into someone who never masturbates to women he knows other than his girlfriend, that would probably involve turning into someone so lacking in sexuality that you'd no longer find him sexy. You were only attracted to him in the first place because he's a sexual being, and men who are sexual (as opposed to being asexual, or having unusually low libidos, etc.), fantasize about random women they know.
He's taken a lot of steps to make me feel comfortable which is why I feel incredibly guilty for not being able to let this go. He … patiently talked to me about everything and how we both felt.… I can tell my boyfriend loves me and cares about me and is very attracted to me…
What a creep! DTMFA!
Just kidding. Your boyfriend sounds like a normal person who responded in a fairly sensitive, intelligent way to your concerns. Obviously it's up to you whether to leave him or give him an ultimatum over this. But I'd think very hard before doing that. Remember, "the best is the enemy of the good" — the perfect man (or woman) doesn't exist. It generally works better to focus on dealing with reality than to despair over the fact that reality isn't exactly as you'd like it to be.
posted by jejune at 7:46 PM on May 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: You are more than enough for the right partner, you don't need to feel inadequate. You are not inadequate. Your partner is engaging his sexuality and enjoying a variety of fantasies, which is very common and is not necessarily a warning sign that he will have sex with someone else while he has promised to be committed to you. It also does not mean that he wishes he could be with these women instead of being with you. That said, it seems to me like you view this masturbatory behavior as a form of infidelity, and that is perfectly fine for you to feel that way. You are absolutely not wrong for being upset about his behavior. Anyone shaming you for your gut reaction to his behavior is wrong. Everyone is different. Whatever you need to be happy in your relationship is OK. Unless you are being abusive or unkind, you should never settle for receiving anything less than what you want from your partner. It sounds to me like what you want from him is fidelity in all forms. People define this differently. What constitutes cheating varies greatly from person to person. No one is 'right' or 'wrong' about this, as it's a matter of personal preference and opinion. Knowing that your partner is putting himself inside of other women in his fantasies crosses a boundary for you, and makes you feel very upset. His looking at images of other women and in those moments wanting to be with them sexually does not sit well with you. Especially since he knows these women. That is OK. You are not 'sex negative' or any of these other judgmental terms some people are throwing at you in here for feeling this way. What you're feeling is totally normal. Whether it's triggered by a desire to preserve our mates and our chances of procreating with them, or some other innate biological response that triggers these feelings, who knows, but these gut reactions you've described are perfectly ok and normal.
What you need to sort out with him is whether or not you two are compatible. Some people refuse to be bound by anyone else's expectations of their sexualities, they wish to be free, and that is fine for them to want that. Others, conversely, have expectations that their partners will not lust after other people whilst committed to them, and vice versa, and that is ok too. What you need to know is: will he feel stifled by your requests to stop viewing these images and porn altogether, or will he be totally ok with channeling his sexual energy toward you alone? Some men would feel boxed into a corner with this sort of request, others would give it a chance, and some might be totally fine with it once asked. You are not broken, being unfair, clueless, or being childish or behind the times for feeling the way you feel. Don't let anyone bully or shame you into believing that. If he is willing to listen to how his behavior makes you feel, like you are being betrayed, and like you are not enough to satisfy him sexually, and if he is comfortable with channeling his sexual energy toward you only, then you can get what you want from him.
Just my two cents. I don't know whether or not I've accurately pinpointed what's going on in your mind.
posted by Avosunspin at 10:20 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
What you need to sort out with him is whether or not you two are compatible. Some people refuse to be bound by anyone else's expectations of their sexualities, they wish to be free, and that is fine for them to want that. Others, conversely, have expectations that their partners will not lust after other people whilst committed to them, and vice versa, and that is ok too. What you need to know is: will he feel stifled by your requests to stop viewing these images and porn altogether, or will he be totally ok with channeling his sexual energy toward you alone? Some men would feel boxed into a corner with this sort of request, others would give it a chance, and some might be totally fine with it once asked. You are not broken, being unfair, clueless, or being childish or behind the times for feeling the way you feel. Don't let anyone bully or shame you into believing that. If he is willing to listen to how his behavior makes you feel, like you are being betrayed, and like you are not enough to satisfy him sexually, and if he is comfortable with channeling his sexual energy toward you only, then you can get what you want from him.
Just my two cents. I don't know whether or not I've accurately pinpointed what's going on in your mind.
posted by Avosunspin at 10:20 PM on May 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
You are having so much trouble with processing this because it feels like he emotionally cheated on you.
Reading your Ask, at first I though “uh, many men masturbate to wired stuff, let it go.” But when I try to put myself in his place (I’m a female though, but it doesn’t matter) and picture myself masturbating to an acquaintance or a co-worker while I’m in a committed relationship with someone else, it feels like I’m mentally cheating on them. I mean, I’m fantasizing about and imagining having sex with another man. This man exists in my life, not just in my imagination. How good it this imaginary sex with him? Good enough to give it a go if an opportunity presents itself in real life? I just don’t see someone doing this and feeling no guilt towards their partner. It just feels too much like cheating. No wonder it breeds insecurity in you. What if he is so attracted to one of these women that he’d go for it in real life? That would be my source of insecurity if I found this out about my partner. I mean, I would have never disclosed these fantasies to my partner, had I had them, because this can be so painful to deal with. It’s completely understandable that you feel this way!
HOWEVER. The fact that he is doing it systematically about many women actually is redeeming here, IMO. I would feel a lot more suspicious, jealous and insecure if it was just one or two real women who he fantasized about. Then I’d think that his level of attraction to these specific people could be far beyond what I’d consider harmless to my relationship. In this case – his attraction to these women is just “a thing” that turns him on, it’s not personable. And absolutely does not mean that he would ever cheat on you.
Also, since he was doing it with ex-coworkers in mind, and hasn’t added any “new faces” to this since he met you, perhaps he was just doing it out of habit. “This is what worked for me in the past (while single), so, without giving it much thought, I’ll just continue doing it.” In this case, it’s not like he has too much of a “wandering eye,” and it’s not like he is fantasizing about someone who he could potentially “go for.” It’s a thoughtless and therefore harmless thing he is doing so you should not worry about it and feed your insecurity by comparing yourself to these women. He seems to sincerely care about you, and you only.
The fact that he does something like this in the first place and how this is disrespectful to objectify women in this way - I dunno. I think as much as we might not like it, this is so prevailing in our culture, that it’s hard to fault him for that. If it bothers you in this regard, then maybe have a conversation or a couple with him about how he views women. Talk to him how men objectifying you affected you in real life. Open his eyes/mind a bit to this issue and what you are dealing with as a woman in this world. He sounds like a person who can learn, and empathize, and put you at ease that he respects women despite his masturbation habits. I believe. If he truly is great and makes you feel loved and wanted and happy, give him a chance to learn? But I think your biggest issue here is insecurity and fear of infidelity, not the fact that he might be objectifying women in his mind.
It seems like he is working hard on being as open and honest with you as you want. This speaks well of his character. But yes, as noted above, maybe work on allowing personal space to your partner and his thoughts, and claiming some for yourself as well. These boundaries are healthy.
posted by LakeDream at 8:19 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Reading your Ask, at first I though “uh, many men masturbate to wired stuff, let it go.” But when I try to put myself in his place (I’m a female though, but it doesn’t matter) and picture myself masturbating to an acquaintance or a co-worker while I’m in a committed relationship with someone else, it feels like I’m mentally cheating on them. I mean, I’m fantasizing about and imagining having sex with another man. This man exists in my life, not just in my imagination. How good it this imaginary sex with him? Good enough to give it a go if an opportunity presents itself in real life? I just don’t see someone doing this and feeling no guilt towards their partner. It just feels too much like cheating. No wonder it breeds insecurity in you. What if he is so attracted to one of these women that he’d go for it in real life? That would be my source of insecurity if I found this out about my partner. I mean, I would have never disclosed these fantasies to my partner, had I had them, because this can be so painful to deal with. It’s completely understandable that you feel this way!
HOWEVER. The fact that he is doing it systematically about many women actually is redeeming here, IMO. I would feel a lot more suspicious, jealous and insecure if it was just one or two real women who he fantasized about. Then I’d think that his level of attraction to these specific people could be far beyond what I’d consider harmless to my relationship. In this case – his attraction to these women is just “a thing” that turns him on, it’s not personable. And absolutely does not mean that he would ever cheat on you.
Also, since he was doing it with ex-coworkers in mind, and hasn’t added any “new faces” to this since he met you, perhaps he was just doing it out of habit. “This is what worked for me in the past (while single), so, without giving it much thought, I’ll just continue doing it.” In this case, it’s not like he has too much of a “wandering eye,” and it’s not like he is fantasizing about someone who he could potentially “go for.” It’s a thoughtless and therefore harmless thing he is doing so you should not worry about it and feed your insecurity by comparing yourself to these women. He seems to sincerely care about you, and you only.
The fact that he does something like this in the first place and how this is disrespectful to objectify women in this way - I dunno. I think as much as we might not like it, this is so prevailing in our culture, that it’s hard to fault him for that. If it bothers you in this regard, then maybe have a conversation or a couple with him about how he views women. Talk to him how men objectifying you affected you in real life. Open his eyes/mind a bit to this issue and what you are dealing with as a woman in this world. He sounds like a person who can learn, and empathize, and put you at ease that he respects women despite his masturbation habits. I believe. If he truly is great and makes you feel loved and wanted and happy, give him a chance to learn? But I think your biggest issue here is insecurity and fear of infidelity, not the fact that he might be objectifying women in his mind.
It seems like he is working hard on being as open and honest with you as you want. This speaks well of his character. But yes, as noted above, maybe work on allowing personal space to your partner and his thoughts, and claiming some for yourself as well. These boundaries are healthy.
posted by LakeDream at 8:19 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm surprised to hear that you care about the split opinion. Other people's views don't matter; it's you who is in the relationship. And this is in the gray area, otherwise you wouldn't be getting such a split of answers.
It comes down to you: what you want to do, what you can do. If you believe this guy is a good partner for you aside from this one thing that happened in the past, to the point that you WANT to get over this, then you probably can. But it might take reading a book on how to deal with anxiety and intrusive / obsessive thoughts. I almost wrote that book in the comment section earlier, so in my opinion, it'd help to read one. You describe your coping here as "not healthy," so it might be worth it to learn those skills regardless of this guy.
On the other hand, you might find that these strategies don't work because deep down, you don't WANT to get over this. What happened did really hurt you, for understandable reasons, and maybe you don't want to be with someone who caused you that pain, even if they didn't mean to. Some people find this unethical or just gross, and maybe you now see him that way too.
posted by salvia at 11:25 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
It comes down to you: what you want to do, what you can do. If you believe this guy is a good partner for you aside from this one thing that happened in the past, to the point that you WANT to get over this, then you probably can. But it might take reading a book on how to deal with anxiety and intrusive / obsessive thoughts. I almost wrote that book in the comment section earlier, so in my opinion, it'd help to read one. You describe your coping here as "not healthy," so it might be worth it to learn those skills regardless of this guy.
On the other hand, you might find that these strategies don't work because deep down, you don't WANT to get over this. What happened did really hurt you, for understandable reasons, and maybe you don't want to be with someone who caused you that pain, even if they didn't mean to. Some people find this unethical or just gross, and maybe you now see him that way too.
posted by salvia at 11:25 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
and before that I used to see him "liking" somewhat provocative or sexy pictures of girls
Look, Metafilter is prone (just as every other place in human society is) to the "men masturbate!! get used to it!" canard. Which, as you know, is totally useless and extremely insulting, because women masturbate too, and you've just admitted that you've masturbated to acquaintances as well. I don't know what men think women masturbate to, exactly, but if you're wondering: we masturbate to the idea of having sex with people we find sexy. Including people we know, people we don't know, imaginary people, whatever.
OK. That said. This situation you've described is not that. I have a "friend" who regularly likes photos of hot women on Facebook, and frankly, I find it extremely weird. You want everyone who is friends with you on Facebook to know who you're jerking it to? Because you know, imagining having sex with your coworker isn't a violation of consent, but continually broadcasting to all your acquaintances that you want to bang someone because their photo is hot is getting to a point where you clearly are not concerned with whether other people want to know this shit, which means you don't mind who you alienate (you're doing it on purpose) or you are extremely underdeveloped socially (you're not). And neither of these sounds like something you want in a guy.
If this were my boyfriend, I'd probably lose some respect for him. Which isn't an objective judgment-- there are plenty of people, including sex workers, who live and breathe that kind of thing on social media and everyone is just fine with it. But for me, personally, knowing that the men I date are NOT part of that scene, I would begin to think our judgment was different and we were possibly incompatible. That's not something that most people would feel comfortable with, and in your case it results in a power imbalance where you are considerate enough to keep your sex fantasies discrete whereas he is being quite public with his, which probably makes you feel humiliated and disrespected in front of anyone who sees his "likes" or notices any of his other public sexual behavior.
I have no idea what makes anyone think this is cool behavior anyone would love, but it's obviously not. It's possible he can change so that you feel more respected, but the fact that he seems to have very poor emotional intelligence re: you is not great and the damage is possibly already done.
I think you need to have some talks about why it hurts you-- I would feel incredibly embarrassed and humiliated to RUN INTO one of these women at my neighborhood coffee shop and need to play nice and polite while knowing that she probably knows he's jerking off to her. I mean, good god. I'd feel like throwing the coffee in his face and getting the fuck out of dodge.
If he's not actually liking photos of his acquaintances and is just visiting their pages constantly, it's less weird, and it's something he probably thought you would never see. It doesn't matter (for the sake of your own feelings) if you ask him for the truth or not, because you already know it. But if he chooses not to be more discrete in the future, the wound is unlikely to heal. If he does, it might just take time, but if things don't feel better you don't have to stay. There are plenty of guys who are far more discrete about their private sexual imagination.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Look, Metafilter is prone (just as every other place in human society is) to the "men masturbate!! get used to it!" canard. Which, as you know, is totally useless and extremely insulting, because women masturbate too, and you've just admitted that you've masturbated to acquaintances as well. I don't know what men think women masturbate to, exactly, but if you're wondering: we masturbate to the idea of having sex with people we find sexy. Including people we know, people we don't know, imaginary people, whatever.
OK. That said. This situation you've described is not that. I have a "friend" who regularly likes photos of hot women on Facebook, and frankly, I find it extremely weird. You want everyone who is friends with you on Facebook to know who you're jerking it to? Because you know, imagining having sex with your coworker isn't a violation of consent, but continually broadcasting to all your acquaintances that you want to bang someone because their photo is hot is getting to a point where you clearly are not concerned with whether other people want to know this shit, which means you don't mind who you alienate (you're doing it on purpose) or you are extremely underdeveloped socially (you're not). And neither of these sounds like something you want in a guy.
If this were my boyfriend, I'd probably lose some respect for him. Which isn't an objective judgment-- there are plenty of people, including sex workers, who live and breathe that kind of thing on social media and everyone is just fine with it. But for me, personally, knowing that the men I date are NOT part of that scene, I would begin to think our judgment was different and we were possibly incompatible. That's not something that most people would feel comfortable with, and in your case it results in a power imbalance where you are considerate enough to keep your sex fantasies discrete whereas he is being quite public with his, which probably makes you feel humiliated and disrespected in front of anyone who sees his "likes" or notices any of his other public sexual behavior.
I have no idea what makes anyone think this is cool behavior anyone would love, but it's obviously not. It's possible he can change so that you feel more respected, but the fact that he seems to have very poor emotional intelligence re: you is not great and the damage is possibly already done.
I think you need to have some talks about why it hurts you-- I would feel incredibly embarrassed and humiliated to RUN INTO one of these women at my neighborhood coffee shop and need to play nice and polite while knowing that she probably knows he's jerking off to her. I mean, good god. I'd feel like throwing the coffee in his face and getting the fuck out of dodge.
If he's not actually liking photos of his acquaintances and is just visiting their pages constantly, it's less weird, and it's something he probably thought you would never see. It doesn't matter (for the sake of your own feelings) if you ask him for the truth or not, because you already know it. But if he chooses not to be more discrete in the future, the wound is unlikely to heal. If he does, it might just take time, but if things don't feel better you don't have to stay. There are plenty of guys who are far more discrete about their private sexual imagination.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's totally okay if you want to date someone who doesn't do this. For real. There are a lot of men out there who don't do this - masturbating to non-sexual pictures of their female friends is not a universal man activity.
Look, it's okay to have whatever feelings you have around this. Therapy is a great idea, but I also don't want you to minimize this just because some people are like, "Oh, all men do this." Because they don't, and it's okay for this to be a dealbreaker. Your boyfriend might be wonderful, but if this is something you can't get past, that's okay, too. It doesn't make you bad or unreasonable, and it doesn't make him bad or unreasonable. It's just an incompatibility.
posted by superlibby at 2:27 PM on May 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
Look, it's okay to have whatever feelings you have around this. Therapy is a great idea, but I also don't want you to minimize this just because some people are like, "Oh, all men do this." Because they don't, and it's okay for this to be a dealbreaker. Your boyfriend might be wonderful, but if this is something you can't get past, that's okay, too. It doesn't make you bad or unreasonable, and it doesn't make him bad or unreasonable. It's just an incompatibility.
posted by superlibby at 2:27 PM on May 26, 2017 [8 favorites]
Last thing: feeling differently about this versus "regular" porn is totally reasonable. It doesn't make you irrational to not want your partner to masturbate to pictures of folks he knows in real life versus porn stars. Thinking about you, and rooting for you.
posted by superlibby at 2:31 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by superlibby at 2:31 PM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: ^ I agree wholeheartedly with superlibby's last two posts
The sweeping statements that 'all men are that way' and 'good luck finding one who isn't' are absurd. Every. one. is. different. What you want out of life and your romantic relationships is your business, no one has the right to dictate to you what is ok and what is not. You should never let one person force you to acquiesce to their way of thinking, in this case, your current boyfriend, (and a lot of people who responded to this question, unfortunately) because then you're just compromising your needs for his/theirs. If you are offended and hurt by your partner looking at porn, or looking at images of women he knows and using them as porn, you are well within your rights to refuse to tolerate it. You are also not alone, and it's not just women who feel the way you feel. You can explain to your partner why it hurts you, and ask that it stop, and your partner can decide if that's something they are cool with changing or not. What you should never do is ignore your feelings, or hide them, because you're afraid that your partner and people in general will think you're being jealous, crazy, or possessive. I don't think anything you've done or felt is any one of those things, but [some] people in general (and defensive porn watching partners) are going to throw those terms at you or imply them. Don't let them win. You should absolutely be with someone who is on board with your definition of fidelity. Never settle.
posted by Avosunspin at 3:15 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
The sweeping statements that 'all men are that way' and 'good luck finding one who isn't' are absurd. Every. one. is. different. What you want out of life and your romantic relationships is your business, no one has the right to dictate to you what is ok and what is not. You should never let one person force you to acquiesce to their way of thinking, in this case, your current boyfriend, (and a lot of people who responded to this question, unfortunately) because then you're just compromising your needs for his/theirs. If you are offended and hurt by your partner looking at porn, or looking at images of women he knows and using them as porn, you are well within your rights to refuse to tolerate it. You are also not alone, and it's not just women who feel the way you feel. You can explain to your partner why it hurts you, and ask that it stop, and your partner can decide if that's something they are cool with changing or not. What you should never do is ignore your feelings, or hide them, because you're afraid that your partner and people in general will think you're being jealous, crazy, or possessive. I don't think anything you've done or felt is any one of those things, but [some] people in general (and defensive porn watching partners) are going to throw those terms at you or imply them. Don't let them win. You should absolutely be with someone who is on board with your definition of fidelity. Never settle.
posted by Avosunspin at 3:15 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I also think it's very important that you drop the issue once it's resolved. If you've gotten to the deeper issue with your partner, and if he's agreed to be faithful in that way (by not looking at those types of pictures) then you have to stop bringing it up. Don't keep asking questions about it in an attempt to reassure or sooth yourself. After you have gotten to the core of it with him, it's then on you to drop it, and to on your own, internally, release all of that anxiety and swirling stress that surrounds the Feeling of Being Cheated On. I think you're dealing with a type of post traumatic stress surrounding infidelity in general, and what you discovered triggered you. But don't let anyone convince you that your disappointment in his porn watching habits was a symptom of your greater fear of being cheated on, stick to your guns. People define infidelity differently. If something hits you that hard, it's not wrong to feel the way you feel. You had a gut reaction, always trust your gut. Decide for yourself what constitutes cheating, and never compromise that
posted by Avosunspin at 3:30 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Avosunspin at 3:30 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think you're on the right track with thinking of getting therapy and realizing that what's really going on is you seem to see this as infidelity. Of course, it isn't infidelity.
The two previous commenters both said it's "OK" to want someone who doesn't do this. But I think there's an important distinction to be made here. There's wishing your boyfriend (current or future) wouldn't do this, and there's insisting he not do this.
Wishing he wouldn't do this is totally fine. You can wish anything you want.
Insisting that he not do this would not be totally fine. It would be very problematic, because, first of all, it's controlling — trying to create rules for your boyfriend's private sexuality when he's alone. And being controlling, especially in a sex-negative way, is not generally conducive to a healthy relationship. And second of all, the most likely outcomes would be, as I said, that you get either a liar or someone with little or no sex drive.
For instance, I may wish I could date a woman who never has sexual fantasies about any other man. But if I were to insist on this, that would be extremely problematic. It would be unrealistic. It would be controlling. And it would be just asking for women to lie to me. The best advice someone could give me if I said that would be to drop this and accept women as they are in real life. And the same goes for you with men.
It would be the easiest thing for all of us to tell you that there's nothing problematic about your relationship goals, and you can have whatever you want, and never settle. Easy for us to say, but virtually impossible for you to do. Everybody settles. Learn to live with this. As the Rolling Stones say, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."
posted by jejune at 6:25 PM on May 26, 2017
The two previous commenters both said it's "OK" to want someone who doesn't do this. But I think there's an important distinction to be made here. There's wishing your boyfriend (current or future) wouldn't do this, and there's insisting he not do this.
Wishing he wouldn't do this is totally fine. You can wish anything you want.
Insisting that he not do this would not be totally fine. It would be very problematic, because, first of all, it's controlling — trying to create rules for your boyfriend's private sexuality when he's alone. And being controlling, especially in a sex-negative way, is not generally conducive to a healthy relationship. And second of all, the most likely outcomes would be, as I said, that you get either a liar or someone with little or no sex drive.
For instance, I may wish I could date a woman who never has sexual fantasies about any other man. But if I were to insist on this, that would be extremely problematic. It would be unrealistic. It would be controlling. And it would be just asking for women to lie to me. The best advice someone could give me if I said that would be to drop this and accept women as they are in real life. And the same goes for you with men.
It would be the easiest thing for all of us to tell you that there's nothing problematic about your relationship goals, and you can have whatever you want, and never settle. Easy for us to say, but virtually impossible for you to do. Everybody settles. Learn to live with this. As the Rolling Stones say, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."
posted by jejune at 6:25 PM on May 26, 2017
Having standards is not settling, nor is it being overly controlling. You can, and should, end relationships that don't meet your needs. Yes, nothing and no one is perfect, but that doesn't mean you should abandon all your values. You get to decide what's important to you and what's not, and you get to ask for things that are important to you even if they don't match your cultural/societal/MeFite-al community norms, and you get to decide if those issues are negotiable or not. You don't have to have a relationship that fits the societal norm; you get to have a relationship that fits your needs.
posted by lazuli at 8:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 8:38 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Wishing" and "insisting" are not the two options that result from wanting someone who doesn't do this (though they are spectacularly sexist stereotypes of the woman who either passively suffers or nags). The real options are "productive communication" or "leaving."
The idea that you need to settle for someone who turns your stomach is not a thing. I've left several men because their attitudes toward sex were uncomfortable, disrespectful or retrograde, and I couldn't be happier. My boyfriend certainly has his own mental fantasy life, but he doesn't share things that would devastate me or hurt my feelings, let alone make a public show of them on social media. The "liar or no sex drive" formulation is a false dichotomy. Healthy boundaries are an option. (Good lord!)
Your boyfriend has terrible boundaries! Not only does he not know how to set boundaries about his own mental life, he is very public about liking and repeatedly viewing hot pictures of women he knows, while fully knowing that you would hate this and feel hurt and disgusted if you found out. Call it lying if you want, but there is such a thing as discretion.
Frankly, I think there is a line between "fantasizing about people you know" and "repeatedly visiting their social media to jerk off to their recent photos," but ultimately it really doesn't matter-- if he's going to do something that transgressive/risky, he should be discrete enough not to cause you pain. That includes him not acting like you're his mom (as queenofbithynia said above) and not leaving a digital trail of likes and most visiteds. (i.e. if pornhub started showing up in the "most recently visited pages" on my homepage, I'd be getting a lot more comfortable with incognito mode.)
Settling is for things like "I've always loved blue eyes but green eyes are nice" or "I sure wish his mother liked me but oh well" or "I thought I'd marry someone who wanted kids at age 28 but I think we can make 31 work." Not "well he makes me feel humiliated and sick to my stomach over his inappropriate indiscrete sexual behavior but uh well I guess I should be cool with it."
posted by stoneandstar at 10:48 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
The idea that you need to settle for someone who turns your stomach is not a thing. I've left several men because their attitudes toward sex were uncomfortable, disrespectful or retrograde, and I couldn't be happier. My boyfriend certainly has his own mental fantasy life, but he doesn't share things that would devastate me or hurt my feelings, let alone make a public show of them on social media. The "liar or no sex drive" formulation is a false dichotomy. Healthy boundaries are an option. (Good lord!)
Your boyfriend has terrible boundaries! Not only does he not know how to set boundaries about his own mental life, he is very public about liking and repeatedly viewing hot pictures of women he knows, while fully knowing that you would hate this and feel hurt and disgusted if you found out. Call it lying if you want, but there is such a thing as discretion.
Frankly, I think there is a line between "fantasizing about people you know" and "repeatedly visiting their social media to jerk off to their recent photos," but ultimately it really doesn't matter-- if he's going to do something that transgressive/risky, he should be discrete enough not to cause you pain. That includes him not acting like you're his mom (as queenofbithynia said above) and not leaving a digital trail of likes and most visiteds. (i.e. if pornhub started showing up in the "most recently visited pages" on my homepage, I'd be getting a lot more comfortable with incognito mode.)
Settling is for things like "I've always loved blue eyes but green eyes are nice" or "I sure wish his mother liked me but oh well" or "I thought I'd marry someone who wanted kids at age 28 but I think we can make 31 work." Not "well he makes me feel humiliated and sick to my stomach over his inappropriate indiscrete sexual behavior but uh well I guess I should be cool with it."
posted by stoneandstar at 10:48 PM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
I think you're on the right track with thinking of getting therapy and realizing that what's really going on is you seem to see this as infidelity. Of course, it isn't infidelity.
Actually it is, if she feels it is. Everyone's definition of infidelity is different. She gets to decide what infidelity is to her, not you or anyone else.
hexenhunst, please, for the love of all things just, do not settle or shove your feelings down a deep dark hole because some people can't handle them, or because some people want to force women to tolerate their nonsense. Don't give up the good fight. Lots of people are going to tell you that you're being unrealistic, unfair, controlling, and any number of things. But you're absolutely not. You're rocking your expectations and that totally throws sexist men for a spin. They can't handle it. You don't have to settle. I'm currently in a relationship with a guy who doesn't do this, or anything like this, and I can tell you that I am incredibly fulfilled. I will say that my current partner would be labeled by some to be 'nerdy' and sweet, and not the typical type that I used to go for. Perhaps it's time to expand your horizons and to open yourself up to the idea of dating men who are not stuck in a sexist patriarchal misogynistic head space. Men who were taught to be sensitive to the needs of women, men who are willing to try new things and to listen to the perspectives of others. There are many types of guys out there, and excluding some because they aren't initially as exciting or 'hot' will only keep you stuck in a pattern of discontent. If your current partner continues his pattern of lustful online behavior, DTMF and find someone you're compatible with who won't do that. Impress your own self. Find what you want, find what will make you happy. I did
posted by Avosunspin at 11:13 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Actually it is, if she feels it is. Everyone's definition of infidelity is different. She gets to decide what infidelity is to her, not you or anyone else.
hexenhunst, please, for the love of all things just, do not settle or shove your feelings down a deep dark hole because some people can't handle them, or because some people want to force women to tolerate their nonsense. Don't give up the good fight. Lots of people are going to tell you that you're being unrealistic, unfair, controlling, and any number of things. But you're absolutely not. You're rocking your expectations and that totally throws sexist men for a spin. They can't handle it. You don't have to settle. I'm currently in a relationship with a guy who doesn't do this, or anything like this, and I can tell you that I am incredibly fulfilled. I will say that my current partner would be labeled by some to be 'nerdy' and sweet, and not the typical type that I used to go for. Perhaps it's time to expand your horizons and to open yourself up to the idea of dating men who are not stuck in a sexist patriarchal misogynistic head space. Men who were taught to be sensitive to the needs of women, men who are willing to try new things and to listen to the perspectives of others. There are many types of guys out there, and excluding some because they aren't initially as exciting or 'hot' will only keep you stuck in a pattern of discontent. If your current partner continues his pattern of lustful online behavior, DTMF and find someone you're compatible with who won't do that. Impress your own self. Find what you want, find what will make you happy. I did
posted by Avosunspin at 11:13 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
this is now something I'm aware that men do, and that if I break up with my boyfriend (despite him being wonderful in many other ways), I will just run into this again with someone else
I don't believe this is accurate, unless by "this" you mean any masturbation at all, regardless of the type of visual aid used.
I think you have a good chance of finding a partner who does not use pictures of your mutual acquaintances to get off. Finding a partner who never masturbates at all would be more challenging but not impossible.
I'm glad you're exploring therapy. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 5:27 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't believe this is accurate, unless by "this" you mean any masturbation at all, regardless of the type of visual aid used.
I think you have a good chance of finding a partner who does not use pictures of your mutual acquaintances to get off. Finding a partner who never masturbates at all would be more challenging but not impossible.
I'm glad you're exploring therapy. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 5:27 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
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