How serious are "recommended" degree requirements?

May 10, 2017 6:48 PM

The undergrad degree track I'm on has two options. My advisor is insistent on one, but not entirely clear about why. Should I listen?

There are two options for my BS in Economics. One option is Econometrics I and Econometrics II. Calculus is a pre-req for Econometrics I. The other option is Intro to Econometrics and two rounds of Statistics. I would like to go on to a Public Policy or Public Health masters program, so I'm leaning towards the Stats option. Not taking Calc would also be a small bonus for me. My advisor is sort of insistent that "they" recommend the double dose of Econometrics, acknowledges it's not a requirement. I have not had a chance to mention my grad school plans.
Is there a compelling reason to do what "they" want me to as long as I'm still meeting the degree requirements?

posted by piedmont to Education (15 answers total)

There may be. They might be thinking about, for instance, what will look better on an application or resume down the line. They may just think it'll better prepare you for what's next. Or "they" may have some personal bias. You can't go wrong asking this question of your advisor, department head, etc.
posted by dbx at 7:22 PM on May 10, 2017

My experience is in math and I'm projecting that on to econ, but my assumption would be that they're trying to signal that "serious" students take econometrics, where "serious" to them means "serious about economics". I would bet anyone with any thoughts of doing an econ PhD is doing two semesters of econometrics. In other words, this is a choice that closes doors, but you may not care about those doors. My guess is that econometrics won't close doors to you (you'll get enough statistical content and probably somewhat more rigorously, given the calculus pre-req), but I don't know that for a fact. Talk to people in public policy and public health--they may see one option or another as more compelling in that context.
posted by hoyland at 7:41 PM on May 10, 2017 [10 favorites]

I think you are aruging over one class. I think you should do your version but also take that one class. Calc is like a big deal conceputally. It can be super valuable in understanding things in math and science and research and sometimes life. If you have any concerns, find a tutor or strong study group. So worth it. I highly recommend at least calc 1 but solidifying these concepts with more calc also comes highly recommended.
posted by Kalmya at 7:54 PM on May 10, 2017 [7 favorites]

Definitely take both calc & stats. They're prob nudging u because a) it's the right choice and b) they see your potential and want you to have maxim options & success

Calc is good for calculating area of weird objects & line slope so u use it in more advanced stats or to calculate more quickly, etc: http://www.cengage.com/resource_uploads/downloads/1439049254_242719.pdf

It's just good to be operating from a place of personal power & communication. You'll be able to tie everything together so much more nicely
posted by semaphore at 8:17 PM on May 10, 2017 [2 favorites]

I will also note that calculus is pretty important in most probability courses I've taken, and also that the Math-Econ major at my undergrad was widely understood to be Econ for people who wanted to go to grad school. In addition, economists (i.e. Econ research professors) have said to me on more than one occasion that the biggest part of grad school for economists has to do with learning math, to the point where they'd prefer to admit people who had taken math courses and no econ in undergrad.

Of course, this is all anecdotal, was from a fairly specific sort of economist, and I am not an economist etc. But you might consider asking your advisor about this more specifically.
posted by phack at 8:22 PM on May 10, 2017 [1 favorite]

Adding to above: would suggest a year of calculus (up to series & sequences). What I linked, v basic, uses integral calculus & is 2nd quarter after differential. Again, the fluency & ease of describing is what you're going for here. It's just superior & you'll be happier and more successful in the long run
posted by semaphore at 8:23 PM on May 10, 2017 [1 favorite]

Everything that semaphore said. I bet that in the eyes of your professors, the non-econometrics sequence is intended for the "quantitatively challenged". Since your professors will write you your letters of recommendation, you really don't want to come across as "not grad school material" by opting into the easier track. And they already identified you as ready and capable by suggesting you take the calculus/econometrics path in the first place!

Also, you will need econometrics to actually understand any applied research in economics. So it'll be valuable (and fun!) in itself.
posted by yonglin at 8:25 PM on May 10, 2017 [4 favorites]

I disagree with most of the people here, at least in part.

You are very, very unlikely to need or even make more than the most passing use of calculus-based statistics in an MPP program, at least in the US. Your methods training will almost certainly be more along the lines of an introductory statistics course that covers up through an introduction to regression, a very applied course on what happens when OLS explodes, and maaaaaaybe an also very applied maximum-likelihood course. If you are not planning to apply to graduate programs in economics, and are not planning on becoming a methodologist, you can safely assume that you do not need the calculus *for statistics*.

...which doesn't mean you won't find at least basic differential calculus useful. Policy analysis can involve futzing with indifference contours and basic optimization problems that differential calculus is good for.

...and it also doesn't mean that the sequence of statistics courses in that stats path would be particularly useful for you. For someone going into an MPP program who isn't planning on becoming a methodologist, it might be more useful to go through econometrics 1 and 2 than to take econometrics 1 and then two courses on probability theory and anova, since those are likely to be more interesting-but-irrelevant to that career path.

If anything, I would just email admissions directors at MPP programs you might be interested in and ask their recommendation. My expectation is that they won't really care much insofar as either BS-in-econ path is well beyond expectations.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:40 PM on May 10, 2017 [3 favorites]

I did my undergrad in Econ (albeit some time ago...graduated in '01) and am currently in a MPH program (graduating next Spring, but going part-time, so I'm about 75% of the way through). I agree with much of what ROU_Xenophobe said.

A BS in Econ is already going to put you fairly far ahead of most folks you'd be entering a MPH cohort with unless you're considering a concentration in BioStats (or similar). Given that your options are MPP or MPH, my guess is you're more focused on policy. I'm in a General Linear Modeling course right now, which my Econometrics I course was helpful for, but not necessary either (especially considering I took it 16.5 years ago and don't remember all that much of it). This is the most advanced stats course required by my program for non-BioStats concentrators, and most of what we're doing is applied (SPSS or SAS-based) anyhow, so it's not like we're hand-proofing anything.

I agree with the suggestion to start taking a look at the programs you're interested in applying to, checking out the degree-plans, and start reaching out to program coordinators for advice. Unless you're looking at applying to elite, very competitive programs, running yourself ragged in undergrad is probably overkill.
posted by Ufez Jones at 8:56 PM on May 10, 2017

It's true that you might not need Calculus-based stats in your future program, but Calculus is honestly so useful in so many quantitative disciplines that I can't imagine not having taken it. It's really helpful if you ever find yourself needing any higher math (like if your ambitions change or if you just unexpectedly need to use certain methods). It also helps motivate a lot of concepts. I would really advocate taking Calc & stats and whatever basis of econometrics they recommend. It's hard to explain how important it is to learn those fundamentals!
posted by stoneandstar at 9:00 PM on May 10, 2017 [3 favorites]

Let me assume that you are not currently struggling with any particular personal, physical , economic or academic hardships, since that would likely impact what I'm about to say.

Take the calc and the econometrics. Undergrad (and honestly grad school) is not about learning the specifics of a discipline. It's about becoming an intellectual badass. This is your training montage. It is exactly the right time to push yourself to learn the things that seem the most difficult. Don't skip learning how to use a sword just because you're doing okay with knives right now! Later on, you will need to figure stuff out yourself, but right now people are willing to handhold you through the material and help you succeed. Even more awesome - you have an undergraduate advisor who appears to be paying attention to you. He wants you to learn econometrics? Thank him, and start bringing your questions about your problem sets to your future meetings.

This is what academic privilege looks like. Don't toss it away. No grad student in any field has ever regretted becoming "too competent" at quantitative analysis.

(If it matters, I am a professor and I have been mentoring and training undergraduate and graduate students for the last 15 or so years.)
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 9:59 PM on May 10, 2017 [15 favorites]

As someone who recently finished a Masters in a health policy related discipline, take the course that gives you two econometrics classes. You should have as much exposure to the statistical methods you will be using in the field. Even if you do not intend to do research or statistical work yourself, it is very useful to understand the methods used in the papers that will be informing your policy work.
posted by bluloo at 10:32 PM on May 10, 2017

How are you doing Micro theory? With diagrams or by formally solving little optimisation problems using Lagrangian multipliers? If it's the former, you need calculus to do it "properly" to read and write acceptable stuff in economics.
posted by hawthorne at 11:19 PM on May 10, 2017

Taking econometrics doesn't limit you in any way, but taking a non-calculus sequence does. Don't close a door to your future if you don't have to. They're hard to pry open again later.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:39 AM on May 11, 2017 [2 favorites]

I work in public health and have an MPH from a very good school; I was also accepted to the other very highly ranked program I applied to (I say this not to brag but to provide context). I did not take a single college level math/stats/econ class. I've never taken calculus - I only got to pre-calc in high school - and I've never taken an econ class. I just had to google to even see what econometrics is. I struggled through my one semester of biostats and really wish I had more grounding in it (like a stats course in college) as it's something I use almost daily, and I work in a policy-oriented sector of public health.....so clearly you can have a good career in some areas of public health without any of these classes but I can tell you from on the ground that stats is important in many, many sectors of public health - I actually struggle to think of one where you won't use it in some way.

Without knowing more about what exactly you want to do - health education? disease prevention? epidemiology? research? public policy? city health department? government job? non-profit? university? international NGO? - it's really impossible to give better advice. I agree with the comments above that more education in methods and more analytical expertise is helpful in any career endeavor in this field. Being able to think critically and analyze data is extremely useful in any area of public health or public policy. I agree with the suggestions to further talk to your advisor, and to reach out to grad programs similar to the one you're considering, or even try for some informational interviews with people whose jobs you find interesting - perhaps you can find an alum of your college.
posted by john_snow at 7:04 AM on May 11, 2017