Budget for upstairs (attic) remodel?
April 2, 2017 3:17 PM Subscribe
We'd like to partial-gut-remodel two bedrooms and a bathroom on the attic/upstairs level of our house. (This level was converted into its current shape recently and very badly by the flippers who sold us the house). How much would this cost, roughly? Deets after the jump.
By partial-gut-remodel I mean: (a) definitely fix/replace leaking window frames, floorboards, everything about the bathroom including where the entrance is, build new closets where none exist now; and (b) possibly replace bedroom drywall, vault ceilings, and install skylights. The total sq footage of both bedrooms and bath is 450 sq ft.
The question every contractor asks before anything else is "what's your budget?" In order to answer this question, I'd like to know how much it would cost (ballpark) to do either (a) or (a+b). Then I could either offer one of these numbers to the contractor, or decide that we can't afford to do this right now, or decide to spend more money than I initially might have guessed on this. So I need to know the answer to "How much should this cost?" before I can answer what I'm willing to pay.
Any input or suggestions? We live in Seattle.
By partial-gut-remodel I mean: (a) definitely fix/replace leaking window frames, floorboards, everything about the bathroom including where the entrance is, build new closets where none exist now; and (b) possibly replace bedroom drywall, vault ceilings, and install skylights. The total sq footage of both bedrooms and bath is 450 sq ft.
The question every contractor asks before anything else is "what's your budget?" In order to answer this question, I'd like to know how much it would cost (ballpark) to do either (a) or (a+b). Then I could either offer one of these numbers to the contractor, or decide that we can't afford to do this right now, or decide to spend more money than I initially might have guessed on this. So I need to know the answer to "How much should this cost?" before I can answer what I'm willing to pay.
Any input or suggestions? We live in Seattle.
Best answer: Have contractors actually asked you for a budget? We did a major exterior project last year (just outside Seattle city limits) and none of the contractors asked us for our budget before they came up with an estimate. It is kind of a time-consuming drag to get multiple bids, but they can be very informative about the scope of costs. It's not inappropriate to ask for estimates that compare cost of A to cost of A+B.
Also Angie's List is a good resource - in the reviews people describe their projects and share some or all of the cost details.
posted by stowaway at 4:16 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also Angie's List is a good resource - in the reviews people describe their projects and share some or all of the cost details.
posted by stowaway at 4:16 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I do not know what the rule of thumb in your area is, but there is usually a very very general rule of thumb for cost per square foot to do various projects. I think the other thing you need to discuss with the contractor is quality level. The previous owners obviously did the work but sounds like they did it on a limited budget so the quality sucks. Two contractors can do the same general work but cost vastly differs because of the finishes, the quality of the work, etc. To me, the question, what's your budget is another way of asking what level of quality are you expecting.
posted by AugustWest at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I agree with everything the Real Dan says but especially think you need to start with this doozy:
Did the flipper get permits?
I'm not in Seattle but I'm familiar with local codes where I am and converting attic spaces to living space has specific requirements codewise and you'll want to know if this space was always considered living space or if they converted it to living space and whether they did it on the fly or with permits. If you want to do work on the space and plan to pull permits to do so, you'll need to know if this is a can of worms.
Attics are tricky. If you need to do things like improve the stairs or structure (to meet permitting requirements) then it could easily start to climb, budgetwise. I also think you could do your project piecemeal: start with the rainwater issues (windows) then move on to the flooring (hit up a flooring supply store with some rough measurements and price what you need with installation). High quality operable skylights might be a couple thousand dollars. You could get possibly get a quote for this from a window supplier including installation.
Your bathroom could be very tricky because I bet you're working with limited space. There's specific code requirements for head height and clearances around bathroom fixtures. Your bathroom could be configured in the way it is because that is the only way it will work – or it could just have been unimaginative.
But as for budget, you should try to come up with a number. How much can you finance? How much cash do you have on hand? What kind of lines of credit do you have and how much are you willing to go into debt? Maybe start with the suppliers I mentioned above and then see if you have a better sense of what your budget is going to be.
posted by amanda at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2017
Did the flipper get permits?
I'm not in Seattle but I'm familiar with local codes where I am and converting attic spaces to living space has specific requirements codewise and you'll want to know if this space was always considered living space or if they converted it to living space and whether they did it on the fly or with permits. If you want to do work on the space and plan to pull permits to do so, you'll need to know if this is a can of worms.
Attics are tricky. If you need to do things like improve the stairs or structure (to meet permitting requirements) then it could easily start to climb, budgetwise. I also think you could do your project piecemeal: start with the rainwater issues (windows) then move on to the flooring (hit up a flooring supply store with some rough measurements and price what you need with installation). High quality operable skylights might be a couple thousand dollars. You could get possibly get a quote for this from a window supplier including installation.
Your bathroom could be very tricky because I bet you're working with limited space. There's specific code requirements for head height and clearances around bathroom fixtures. Your bathroom could be configured in the way it is because that is the only way it will work – or it could just have been unimaginative.
But as for budget, you should try to come up with a number. How much can you finance? How much cash do you have on hand? What kind of lines of credit do you have and how much are you willing to go into debt? Maybe start with the suppliers I mentioned above and then see if you have a better sense of what your budget is going to be.
posted by amanda at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2017
I would agree with the others too that you need to know about permits and/or adherence to code. When you said closets where none exist, that is a red flag because closets means it is a bedroom for zoning/code purposes and no closets on rooms meant to be slept in generally means not code. I have no idea if you have septic or sewers, but if it is septic, adding bedrooms with closets may mean you have to improve the capacity of the septic system. Around here when you see an ad for a house that says, "3 bedrooms but lives like a 4 bedroom" that means that code will only allow 3 but we have another room we call a study that is used by all the previous owners of the house as a bedroom. Instead of a closet we use a large armoire.
Know too that permits themselves cost money in filing fees. Also, know that if the previous owner did not pull permits that it does not necessarily mean that the work they did won't or can't be approved. I have seen the only remediation be the actual pulling of the permits and the inspection.
Sometimes your tax bill will tell you how many bedrooms and bathrooms the town knows you have which is a way to determine if the proper permits were pulled. If the assessor does not know you have two additional bedrooms and a full bath, he will after you pull permits and your property taxes are likely to rise. This is another fact you need to consider in the cost of any repairs or improvements.
posted by AugustWest at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2017
Know too that permits themselves cost money in filing fees. Also, know that if the previous owner did not pull permits that it does not necessarily mean that the work they did won't or can't be approved. I have seen the only remediation be the actual pulling of the permits and the inspection.
Sometimes your tax bill will tell you how many bedrooms and bathrooms the town knows you have which is a way to determine if the proper permits were pulled. If the assessor does not know you have two additional bedrooms and a full bath, he will after you pull permits and your property taxes are likely to rise. This is another fact you need to consider in the cost of any repairs or improvements.
posted by AugustWest at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2017
It sounds like it's not up to code and that's what costs money. This is when a good local architect can save you a bundle. So can a good contractor but if you have the money to spend upfront I'd pull the permit info that you can (sneakily) and hire an architect to help you figure out the best way to do this.
posted by fshgrl at 8:53 PM on April 2, 2017
posted by fshgrl at 8:53 PM on April 2, 2017
The answer for renovations really are "what's your budget?"
Consider it like asking "How much can I pay to eat?" It depends - do you want a $2 hotdog or a $2000 omakase sushi dinner? You can always do more/less with renovations.
On a rule of thumb basis, let's say that the work you're talking about starts at $100/sqft for a very inexpensive total gut reno (new plumbing, electrical, etc). That's around $450k. Or alternately, let's say you're talking about doing the bathroom only, and it's around 50 sqft - maybe that's $50k.
If either of those two numbers sound vaguely reasonable to you, then you're on track. If you were thinking more like $10k, then you're venturing into maintenance work / touch-up territory.
I'd recommend hiring a good local architect, or even better, a design-build firm. If you take photos of what you have now, and assemble a mood board / gather a series of images off of Pinterest of what you're interested in having, then the design-build contractor will probably be able to better understand your intent and price things accordingly.
posted by suedehead at 11:20 PM on April 2, 2017
Consider it like asking "How much can I pay to eat?" It depends - do you want a $2 hotdog or a $2000 omakase sushi dinner? You can always do more/less with renovations.
On a rule of thumb basis, let's say that the work you're talking about starts at $100/sqft for a very inexpensive total gut reno (new plumbing, electrical, etc). That's around $450k. Or alternately, let's say you're talking about doing the bathroom only, and it's around 50 sqft - maybe that's $50k.
If either of those two numbers sound vaguely reasonable to you, then you're on track. If you were thinking more like $10k, then you're venturing into maintenance work / touch-up territory.
I'd recommend hiring a good local architect, or even better, a design-build firm. If you take photos of what you have now, and assemble a mood board / gather a series of images off of Pinterest of what you're interested in having, then the design-build contractor will probably be able to better understand your intent and price things accordingly.
posted by suedehead at 11:20 PM on April 2, 2017
Response by poster: Thank you all for the comments. We are interested in using a design-build firm for this.
Another (dumb) question: what makes permits difficult? Are they expensive to the point of being comparable to the cost of the work itself?
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2017
Another (dumb) question: what makes permits difficult? Are they expensive to the point of being comparable to the cost of the work itself?
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2017
On a rule of thumb basis, let's say that the work you're talking about starts at $100/sqft for a very inexpensive total gut reno (new plumbing, electrical, etc). That's around $450k. Or alternately, let's say you're talking about doing the bathroom only, and it's around 50 sqft - maybe that's $50k.
All of your numbers are too high by an order of magnitude for your assumed rate of $100/sqft. They would be correct for $1000/sqft. (That said, the real cost is probably in the middle. $1000/sqft is the extreme gold-plated high end, but $100/sqft sounds too cheap when not in a very low cost of living area.)
posted by musicinmybrain at 7:29 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
All of your numbers are too high by an order of magnitude for your assumed rate of $100/sqft. They would be correct for $1000/sqft. (That said, the real cost is probably in the middle. $1000/sqft is the extreme gold-plated high end, but $100/sqft sounds too cheap when not in a very low cost of living area.)
posted by musicinmybrain at 7:29 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
What makes permits difficult?
The cost of the permit relates to the cost of the work and the type of work and inspections you will require. Something that is not to code cannot be permitted. So it's more the process of the permit than the cost. Your local city planning department may have a permits estimator online so look for that. A permit comes with an inspection (or inspections). If you feel that the existing attic was not permitted, in order to do permitted work in the space, you would need to permit the whole thing. And if the whole thing cannot be permitted because it is not to code then you may run into fines with the city.
posted by amanda at 9:37 AM on April 4, 2017
The cost of the permit relates to the cost of the work and the type of work and inspections you will require. Something that is not to code cannot be permitted. So it's more the process of the permit than the cost. Your local city planning department may have a permits estimator online so look for that. A permit comes with an inspection (or inspections). If you feel that the existing attic was not permitted, in order to do permitted work in the space, you would need to permit the whole thing. And if the whole thing cannot be permitted because it is not to code then you may run into fines with the city.
posted by amanda at 9:37 AM on April 4, 2017
Maybe start here to see if there exists permits for the flipper renovation - http://web6.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/. Then determine your budget and then come to a contractor, a design-build company or an architect or residential designer with your project.
posted by amanda at 9:41 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by amanda at 9:41 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
One more thing! So, let's say you're like, well, I just want to put in flooring and move this door around and add the skylights. The skylights may be the triggering element to the permit process. So, you go down that road and discover that you need a permit for the whole thing (retroactive) plus the new work. Now your project valuation just went up so your permit fees went up. Let's say flooring + door + skylights costs you $25K in labor and materials. But the valuation your permit is based on is the whole upper floor and maybe that permit costs $3000k not to mention the drawings you would need to produce. That fee might be your whole flooring budget! A $3k permit for a $25k project will seem onerous to you. Does that make sense?
posted by amanda at 9:46 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by amanda at 9:46 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Another (dumb) question: what makes permits difficult? Are they expensive to the point of being comparable to the cost of the work itself?
It's the required hard limits in the permitting process that cost on renos. Say you want to put in a new staircase in the basement reno you are doing on your 1950s house- awesome. But the code requires tread of a certain size and gradient and a certain landing size at the top and bottom and you can't do that because your back door is at the top and your laundry room door is at the bottom and you'd have to burn the house to the ground and start over to have a 3' square landing instead of a 2'10" square landing at the top and still be able to access the laundry room. Or you could move your whole HVAC system over 6". And forget about the electrical panel, that's at least a foot too close to the door, it must have unimpeded access. And the basement bathroom that's been there for 35 years has a sewer line that is 0.25" too small in diameter for code and you have to tear up the entire foundation to fix it. Stuff like that.
posted by fshgrl at 12:07 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's the required hard limits in the permitting process that cost on renos. Say you want to put in a new staircase in the basement reno you are doing on your 1950s house- awesome. But the code requires tread of a certain size and gradient and a certain landing size at the top and bottom and you can't do that because your back door is at the top and your laundry room door is at the bottom and you'd have to burn the house to the ground and start over to have a 3' square landing instead of a 2'10" square landing at the top and still be able to access the laundry room. Or you could move your whole HVAC system over 6". And forget about the electrical panel, that's at least a foot too close to the door, it must have unimpeded access. And the basement bathroom that's been there for 35 years has a sewer line that is 0.25" too small in diameter for code and you have to tear up the entire foundation to fix it. Stuff like that.
posted by fshgrl at 12:07 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
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What can you afford to pay?
What price is too high?
People usually grossly underestimate what remodeling costs, and the (general) contractor wants to see if you're even halfway serious. If your number is too low, the contractor is not interested in improving your education or expectations. There's lots of work available elsewhere. You need to decide on a lot more details, and provide a bunch more information.
Permits:
Did the flipper get permits?
Were they inspected and signed off?
Are you going to get permits?
Windows:
How many windows? What size windows? Are they new? They sound badly flashed.
Floorboards:
You mean flooring? What kind is there now? What do you want to replace it with?
Bathroom:
Are you moving the bathroom toilet, sinks, tub, shower?
Cabinetry:
How many square feet of closet? Have any opinions on how it looks?
Drywall/framing:
Replace drywall? Why?
What size rafters do you have?
Are the ceiling joists in tension? Do you have a structural ridgebeam?
What are the spans? (on everything)?
Skylights:
What style skylight? Is a "light tunnel" all right? Do they need to open?
Nobody can give you estimate yet, unless it's really high.
posted by the Real Dan at 4:05 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]