It takes two
March 30, 2017 8:00 AM Subscribe
Recommendations needed for books to prepare a broody boyfriend for the reality of baby raising in an egalitarian way?
A friend's boyfriend is convinced that babies are fucking awesome and life raising them is about playing games and bedtime stories. This is because women do the emotional labour of raising children, and my friend is keen that they raise the child together in a caring, sharing and equal way without it devolving into points scoring. Are there any books that are designed to set a framework for childrearing in this way?
I was considering single father books, but that might send an alarming message.
A friend's boyfriend is convinced that babies are fucking awesome and life raising them is about playing games and bedtime stories. This is because women do the emotional labour of raising children, and my friend is keen that they raise the child together in a caring, sharing and equal way without it devolving into points scoring. Are there any books that are designed to set a framework for childrearing in this way?
I was considering single father books, but that might send an alarming message.
I know this is a really common AskMeFi answer these days, but I think that reading the Emotional Labor thread would be a great place to start.
posted by MangoNews at 8:12 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by MangoNews at 8:12 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
I think just having a baby will shift that perspective pretty fast.
posted by Marinara at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Marinara at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Seconding permiechickie's book suggestion, it's a great book. We used it for my nephew; it spells out a lot of things in a way that practical, "logic-minded" people can understand.
posted by Melismata at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017
posted by Melismata at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017
I don't have any book recommendations, but in terms of parenting not being all games and bedtime stories, she'll want to address all the non-emotional labour -- the labour labour, too: Making and going to doctor appointments, going back to school shopping, going to parent-teacher meetings, remembering when gym day and library day are and reminding kids to take their gym clothes or library books, packing lunches, cleaning vomit in the middle of the night, washing crayon off of walls, running out to buy construction paper for some school project remembered at the last minute, figuring out what that is and how it got in in the DVD player, etc. etc. etc. Equitable parenting requires a split on those things, too.
That said, your friend is interested in making her boyfriend do things he has shown no interest in doing. This might not work and a book isn't magic that will necessarily change that. But yeah, if she wants to give a book a shot, it needs to cover more than emotional labour.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
That said, your friend is interested in making her boyfriend do things he has shown no interest in doing. This might not work and a book isn't magic that will necessarily change that. But yeah, if she wants to give a book a shot, it needs to cover more than emotional labour.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
Do you have any mutual friends with young children? Ask them to just make a list as they go through the week of everything they do vis-a-vis the kid that isn't fun. It will be a long list.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:20 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:20 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
A good first indicator is if he goes ahead and seeks out such books on his own.
Probably a good second indicator is if he bothers to read the books other people find for him.
Nthing the emotional labor thread. But I'll be honest, I'm a little bit horrified that there are adults who think having a baby is just awesome fun times all of the time. Like that...maybe doesn't sound like a problem a book (or a thread) can solve.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:38 AM on March 30, 2017 [16 favorites]
Probably a good second indicator is if he bothers to read the books other people find for him.
Nthing the emotional labor thread. But I'll be honest, I'm a little bit horrified that there are adults who think having a baby is just awesome fun times all of the time. Like that...maybe doesn't sound like a problem a book (or a thread) can solve.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:38 AM on March 30, 2017 [16 favorites]
address all the non-emotional labour -- the labour labour, too:
This is important, because most people who haven't already read fifty thousand words (?) about it on Metafilter will wonder how the hell e.g. changing diapers and doing laundry is "emotional". It's just work from most people's perspective, and putting it in new/poorly-understood words isn't going to help anything, in my opinion.
I'd focus on there being lots of work that isn't fun, and that it has to be shared equitably. If he doesn't understand that without reading a book, I'm not sure reading a book would help, but I suppose it might.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:43 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
This is important, because most people who haven't already read fifty thousand words (?) about it on Metafilter will wonder how the hell e.g. changing diapers and doing laundry is "emotional". It's just work from most people's perspective, and putting it in new/poorly-understood words isn't going to help anything, in my opinion.
I'd focus on there being lots of work that isn't fun, and that it has to be shared equitably. If he doesn't understand that without reading a book, I'm not sure reading a book would help, but I suppose it might.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:43 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
Perhaps there's more backstory here, but I'm not entirely clear as to why we need to inoculate a person against the idea that babies are awesome. Babies are awesome and a huge amount of fun and playing games and bedtime stories are some of the things that I love about being a parent. All of the things you've said are true -- babies are a lot of work and the default in society is to put that work on women. But, absent red flags, I think you shouldn't overwhelm him with all the possible challenges. It may beat down his joy and, as Marinara says, having a baby is the best way to understand the real amount of work babies are. If, after the baby is born, it turns out he's a responsibility-ducking schmuck, someone needs to call him out. But how much is really gained by doing it before then?
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:43 AM on March 30, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:43 AM on March 30, 2017 [16 favorites]
I doubt that a book that tells him to be more egalitarian is going to work. There are dozens of good baby books that basically cover the same information: sleeping, eating, diapering, etc., but they have different spins. You need to find one that has a "Dad" spin, such as the aforementioned The Baby Owner's Manual: Operating Instructions or Be Prepared: A Practical Handbook for New Dads. They are somewhat funny and attempt to appeal to people with Y chromosones.
And second, a general point that may or may not apply here: I think we've all heard stories of moms who scare off dads because they aren't doing it "right" - i.e., her way. She needs to understand that he will parent somewhat differently than she will, both because he's a different person and, potentially, because he's a father. Mothering and fathering generally differ, and not just because we can't grow a baby in our abdomens and or create food in our chests. Dads generally (somewhat, the extent varies, this is not true of all parents, add your additional conditionals here) relate to kids more physically and less emotionally. If he's keeping the baby safe, then leave him alone (both figuratively and literally).
That doesn't mean that dads get to shirk: he needs to understand that he needs to change diapers and rock the crying newborn in the middle of the night. At the beginning, when moms need to do the hard work of nursing, he needs to step up and support her by doing what he can: diapering, housework, etc. But she shouldn't expect him to be a second mom.
And tell him that when the baby's about 4 to 6 months, he'll get to do this (Youtube demonstration of the incredible balancing baby trick, which tends to appeal more to dads than moms).
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:46 AM on March 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
And second, a general point that may or may not apply here: I think we've all heard stories of moms who scare off dads because they aren't doing it "right" - i.e., her way. She needs to understand that he will parent somewhat differently than she will, both because he's a different person and, potentially, because he's a father. Mothering and fathering generally differ, and not just because we can't grow a baby in our abdomens and or create food in our chests. Dads generally (somewhat, the extent varies, this is not true of all parents, add your additional conditionals here) relate to kids more physically and less emotionally. If he's keeping the baby safe, then leave him alone (both figuratively and literally).
That doesn't mean that dads get to shirk: he needs to understand that he needs to change diapers and rock the crying newborn in the middle of the night. At the beginning, when moms need to do the hard work of nursing, he needs to step up and support her by doing what he can: diapering, housework, etc. But she shouldn't expect him to be a second mom.
And tell him that when the baby's about 4 to 6 months, he'll get to do this (Youtube demonstration of the incredible balancing baby trick, which tends to appeal more to dads than moms).
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:46 AM on March 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
This is another recent thread based on a book (How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids) that could be helpful. The comments about equal parental leave and also Dad changing every single diaper while Mom is breastfeeding were enlightening in that they showed that early and intense caring for baby by Dad set the stage for more egalitarian parenting.
posted by quince at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by quince at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
It sounds like your friend has decided in advance that boyfriend isn't going to do enough. Is there a reason for that? Does he already expect her to do the housework? Assuming they are living together or are sharing their lives in other ways, she has had a lot of opportunities to see how he shares responsibility. If he's already doing his share, I don't see how his thinking babies are awesome (agree with Betelgeuse that they are awesome) suggests an upcoming problem. And focusing on the fun aspects now - I just don't see that as a red flag or as an indication that he doesn't think there's going to be work ahead. Would it be better if he were going around talking endlessly about how much work babies are? That would be a depressing way to approach impending parenthood. Unless he's actively saying that taking care of children is nothing but good times, I don't see how that assumption that that's what he thinks is warranted.
And going into this just assuming that he isn't going to do his share of the work - well that's a shitty way to start things off and could result in him resenting her beliefs about how he's going to handle things. Your description is brief, so apologies if I'm wrong, but it sounds like she's already keeping score.
Of course, if he's not doing his share around the house, that needs to be addressed in itself.
posted by FencingGal at 9:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
And going into this just assuming that he isn't going to do his share of the work - well that's a shitty way to start things off and could result in him resenting her beliefs about how he's going to handle things. Your description is brief, so apologies if I'm wrong, but it sounds like she's already keeping score.
Of course, if he's not doing his share around the house, that needs to be addressed in itself.
posted by FencingGal at 9:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Kids are like, 80% work, 20% magic. Entirely worth it, but some people seem to underestimate the grind it can be. If this guy doesn't equitably split household chores, upkeep, errands, emotional labor now, it seems a stretch that he will once he has kids.
Moreover, I'm not sure how you get to adulthood without some kind of understanding of the work parenting involves....
posted by walkinginsunshine at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Moreover, I'm not sure how you get to adulthood without some kind of understanding of the work parenting involves....
posted by walkinginsunshine at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Rather than give him books to read, I sent my hubby to Daddy Boot Camp, and took him to a breastfeeding class. He liked the boot camp a lot because it was experienced dads coming back with their babies, no moms in the room, and talking about what they had learned and showing the dads how to dad. He found it so valuable that he even went back to present as an experienced dad with each of our kids.
The breastfeeding class was awesome because the leader was very firm and matter-of-fact with the dads in the room about how much work it is to breastfeed and how tired the mom is going to be and how the reality of the situation is that a new mom isn't going to be (and should not be) up cooking and cleaning so dad better be prepared to either pick up the slack or bring help in.
Depends on the person but sometimes they just don't pick things up from books.
posted by vignettist at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
The breastfeeding class was awesome because the leader was very firm and matter-of-fact with the dads in the room about how much work it is to breastfeed and how tired the mom is going to be and how the reality of the situation is that a new mom isn't going to be (and should not be) up cooking and cleaning so dad better be prepared to either pick up the slack or bring help in.
Depends on the person but sometimes they just don't pick things up from books.
posted by vignettist at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I think we can trust that this friend is an accurate assessor of her boyfriend and how much she should be concerned that he won't pull his weight in terms of actual, grown-up parenting. And I DEFINITELY don't think that just having a baby and hoping for the best is a good idea - if it turns out he really doesn't like the work part of parenting, your friend would suddenly have to become "mom" to both her boyfriend and her baby - and to hell with that.
By any chance does this couple have any friends or relatives who could use a babysitter, and would the boyfriend be willing to take that on? Not just "an hour here or there" because I suspect it would be easy to focus on the fun stuff if you get to leave quickly, but more on the order of hours at a time, over multiple days? I'm not quite sure how long it would take to get past the "fun, novelty" stage and into more of a routine, but I think some hands-on experience would benefit this guy. (on preview, vignettist's Daddy Bootcamp sounds wonderful, too - either way, find some way for him to be a daddy intern!)
posted by DingoMutt at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
By any chance does this couple have any friends or relatives who could use a babysitter, and would the boyfriend be willing to take that on? Not just "an hour here or there" because I suspect it would be easy to focus on the fun stuff if you get to leave quickly, but more on the order of hours at a time, over multiple days? I'm not quite sure how long it would take to get past the "fun, novelty" stage and into more of a routine, but I think some hands-on experience would benefit this guy. (on preview, vignettist's Daddy Bootcamp sounds wonderful, too - either way, find some way for him to be a daddy intern!)
posted by DingoMutt at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
Seconding daddy boot camp. It was one of the classes our hospital offered. It was indeed helpful for my husband to go hear from dads and see/hold a real baby before ours arrived.
I'd join in suggesting that your friend try hard not to go into this with "You're probably going to fuck this up and here are a bunch of books talking about why." Even if he IS probably going to fuck it up. It just doesn't help to come in guns blazing. If she's going to go the book route, a dad-focused how-to-dad book is going to be much more useful. It also helps to do some matter-of-fact joint negotiating of "this is how we intend to handle these things", though with an understanding that the plans may all need to be rejiggered once the baby comes.
After that, the most helpful thing to set the stage for us was that my husband took the week off work after our baby was born, and we did not call in grandparents til that week had passed. During that time, he did the bulk of the physical labor, since I was exhausted from the long labor and simultaneously trying to learn to breastfeed and grow my nether regions back together. We also agreed in advance that since I had to do the feeding, that he would get up and deliver the baby to me in bed, then take him back to his crib when he was done eating.
Of course this all went to shit with the second baby for $reasons, but life is complicated. Over time, as we've fluctuated through various amounts of his ability to step up to the plate, the one thing that has NEVER EVER HELPED is me coming in guns blazing about how he's fucking everything up. The (re)negotiations have to stay value-neutral or you just don't get anywhere.
posted by telepanda at 9:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'd join in suggesting that your friend try hard not to go into this with "You're probably going to fuck this up and here are a bunch of books talking about why." Even if he IS probably going to fuck it up. It just doesn't help to come in guns blazing. If she's going to go the book route, a dad-focused how-to-dad book is going to be much more useful. It also helps to do some matter-of-fact joint negotiating of "this is how we intend to handle these things", though with an understanding that the plans may all need to be rejiggered once the baby comes.
After that, the most helpful thing to set the stage for us was that my husband took the week off work after our baby was born, and we did not call in grandparents til that week had passed. During that time, he did the bulk of the physical labor, since I was exhausted from the long labor and simultaneously trying to learn to breastfeed and grow my nether regions back together. We also agreed in advance that since I had to do the feeding, that he would get up and deliver the baby to me in bed, then take him back to his crib when he was done eating.
Of course this all went to shit with the second baby for $reasons, but life is complicated. Over time, as we've fluctuated through various amounts of his ability to step up to the plate, the one thing that has NEVER EVER HELPED is me coming in guns blazing about how he's fucking everything up. The (re)negotiations have to stay value-neutral or you just don't get anywhere.
posted by telepanda at 9:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I just heard about How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids, which sounds similar to Overwhelmed but the former sounds like it has a more hands-on focus. I have read Overwhelmed, and it's a well-researched book (with some blind spots).
posted by aniola at 10:24 AM on March 30, 2017
posted by aniola at 10:24 AM on March 30, 2017
Can you borrow a baby for a weekend? My biggest insights into what it's like to have kids have come when I've actually been the sole/primary caregiver for a child or children. If they have friends who have young kids, offer to babysit for the weekend, with the agreement in advance being that he will be the primary caregiver. He'll be able to see what it's really like, at least a little taste. And she'll be able to see whether he really lives up to his promise to be a primary caregiver to a child. I think it would be enlightening for both of them.
posted by decathecting at 10:34 AM on March 30, 2017
posted by decathecting at 10:34 AM on March 30, 2017
This is because women do the emotional labour of raising children, and my friend is keen that they raise the child together in a caring, sharing and equal way without it devolving into points scoring.
I think if you're starting from this point of view the possibility is poisoned from the start. Remember that some men do the majority of emotional labour, labour labour, and financial labour when raising kids. Not everyone should be tarred with the "I chose the wrong guy now I'm going to blame all men" rants of the emotional labour thread.
If you start from your premise there will be difficulty getting anywhere else.
posted by tillsbury at 3:23 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think if you're starting from this point of view the possibility is poisoned from the start. Remember that some men do the majority of emotional labour, labour labour, and financial labour when raising kids. Not everyone should be tarred with the "I chose the wrong guy now I'm going to blame all men" rants of the emotional labour thread.
If you start from your premise there will be difficulty getting anywhere else.
posted by tillsbury at 3:23 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: my friend is keen that they raise the child together in a caring, sharing and equal way without it devolving into points scoring. Are there any books that are designed to set a framework for childrearing in this way?
Equally Shared Parenting: Rewriting the Rules for a New Generation of Parents is 100% this. Mrs Maninsuit and I read it before we had our kid, and it does a great job of talking about this, mapping out common pitfalls to avoid, etc.
posted by ManInSuit at 3:28 PM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Equally Shared Parenting: Rewriting the Rules for a New Generation of Parents is 100% this. Mrs Maninsuit and I read it before we had our kid, and it does a great job of talking about this, mapping out common pitfalls to avoid, etc.
posted by ManInSuit at 3:28 PM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
"games and stories" (and discipline and patience) are the emotional labor of childrearing. Childbirth, nursing, feeding, clothing, and cleaning are the physical labor and they are the things that women are most frequently disproportionately burdened with, not the emotional parts, which many parents characterize as the "fun" parts.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that unceasing physical labor is emotionally exhausting. but the intense physicality, lack of rest or relaxation, and claustrophobic enforced intimacy with a young child are among the things that break down new mothers sometimes. "Emotional labor" dramatically undersells how tangible this is and how non-negotiable it is for a father to participate fully and fairly.
and aside from the physical, to subsume all the mental labor of parenting under the "emotional" umbrella is its own unintentional insult to the sheer amount of thinking a good parent does. It's not emotional just because it's a woman doing it most of the time, or because she doesn't get paid. If this guy is as sexist and oblivious as he is understood to be, this framing will reinforce it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:44 PM on March 30, 2017
I think the confusion comes from the fact that unceasing physical labor is emotionally exhausting. but the intense physicality, lack of rest or relaxation, and claustrophobic enforced intimacy with a young child are among the things that break down new mothers sometimes. "Emotional labor" dramatically undersells how tangible this is and how non-negotiable it is for a father to participate fully and fairly.
and aside from the physical, to subsume all the mental labor of parenting under the "emotional" umbrella is its own unintentional insult to the sheer amount of thinking a good parent does. It's not emotional just because it's a woman doing it most of the time, or because she doesn't get paid. If this guy is as sexist and oblivious as he is understood to be, this framing will reinforce it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:44 PM on March 30, 2017
Response by poster: Hi everyone, thanks for the recommendations for books, courses and for them both to get significant hands on time with babies. I'm excited to read the books myself, they look really interesting, but also it seems there's still a gap in the market for books like this.
This question came out of a conversation between her and I, that led to me asking the question of is there a book optimised for a male audience that is enthusiastic about having babies, but only in the abstract, i.e. "our babies will be adorable", "I'll be sure to come home early from work to play with them" about the realities of childrearing and ways to do it in a way that doesn't require Mum to be Mum to Dad as well as Baby.
I purposefully did not give a huge amount of detail about my friend, her boyfriend or their specific situation in order to try and avoid some of the comments we've received accusing her of having a poisoned outlook, or the defensive assumption that he is either an awful person or a misunderstood saint, and that this question is rooted in a misplaced assumption of failure. It's unfair to get comments like this seeing as this isn't her account and she can't defend herself. We really did just want recommendations for books for new fathers that fit the ethos she wants for her future child.
My understanding of emotional labour is that it is about the burden of emotional care of other people that inevitably falls to women for various reasons, usually not malicious, on the part of male partners. Cleaning, keeping appointments, being clean and presentable, checking in with relatives, arranging doctor's and dentist's appointments, and caring for the vulnerable are all part of it. Not All Men-ing it doesn't help.
Despite this, thanks so much for all the valuable contributions and interesting discussion, I've marked some as best and I'll ask my friend if she wants to add more.
posted by litereally at 3:17 AM on March 31, 2017
This question came out of a conversation between her and I, that led to me asking the question of is there a book optimised for a male audience that is enthusiastic about having babies, but only in the abstract, i.e. "our babies will be adorable", "I'll be sure to come home early from work to play with them" about the realities of childrearing and ways to do it in a way that doesn't require Mum to be Mum to Dad as well as Baby.
I purposefully did not give a huge amount of detail about my friend, her boyfriend or their specific situation in order to try and avoid some of the comments we've received accusing her of having a poisoned outlook, or the defensive assumption that he is either an awful person or a misunderstood saint, and that this question is rooted in a misplaced assumption of failure. It's unfair to get comments like this seeing as this isn't her account and she can't defend herself. We really did just want recommendations for books for new fathers that fit the ethos she wants for her future child.
My understanding of emotional labour is that it is about the burden of emotional care of other people that inevitably falls to women for various reasons, usually not malicious, on the part of male partners. Cleaning, keeping appointments, being clean and presentable, checking in with relatives, arranging doctor's and dentist's appointments, and caring for the vulnerable are all part of it. Not All Men-ing it doesn't help.
Despite this, thanks so much for all the valuable contributions and interesting discussion, I've marked some as best and I'll ask my friend if she wants to add more.
posted by litereally at 3:17 AM on March 31, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
It's a first year baby guide written as if the baby was a new gadget. A little gimmicky but all the relevant info is there. The reason I suggest it is that I think part of the reason a lot of baby stuff goes to mom is that dads are not always well informed about what is going on and so they don't just jump in, then that trend just continues through out the child's life. Most baby parenting books are written with the mother as the expected audience, this is one exception.
posted by permiechickie at 8:12 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]