How to deal with wedding veils, feminism, and family drama?
March 30, 2017 3:58 AM Subscribe
I'm getting married in a few months. Yay! I don't want to wear a veil. My parents are insisting upon it, and we are fighting about everything. It's stressing me out.
My wonderful, supportive, endlessly-patient fiancé and I are getting married soon. We are financing most of the entire event ourselves. When we first became engaged, we told both sets of parents that we could afford to pay for the affair ourselves, but if they wanted to help pay for specific things, we would be happy to have their contributions. His parents have generously volunteered to pay for the rehearsal dinner and our photography. My parents' reaction was, "Well, it depends on how much what you want costs."
I asked them specifically if they would like to help pay for my dress. Response: "It depends on how much the dress you want costs." I'm not an extravagant person. I set a reasonable budget for myself based on what I could personally afford (being unsure that I would have any assistance from them). They ultimately paid for my dress, which cost about $600. When the stylist asked if I wanted to wear a veil, I said no, and this became an immediate and lasting source of contention (one of many) with my parents.
My parents, specifically my mother, are insisting that I wear a veil, with a blusher. Her rationale is that having the memory of her now-deceased father pulling the veil back was a very special memory for her. I respect this, but have the following issues with veils:
1) The veil as a historical reference to virginity
2) The historical context of using veils in arranged marriage
3) I'm paying a lot of money to look beautiful on my wedding day, and I would prefer not to have my face covered.
4) I just have a generalized feeling of yuckiness about the whole thing. I'm a professional and a feminist (as are most of my friends) - we are also not doing a bouquet toss or a garter throw, which also displeases them greatly. I'm barely comfortable with the optics of being "given away."
I value that this was a good memory for my mother, but our wedding is not their wedding, and her memory is not my memory.
My parents feel that, whether or not they are paying for something, they should be allowed to veto anything they dislike, and that planning our wedding without them being allowed to weigh in on every decision has been disrespectful. My fiancé and I have planned this wedding while living in different states, and each of us several hours away from our venue and vendors. We planned our wedding over the course of several weekends when we could both travel to the town where our venue is located, and the remaining loose ends tied up over the phone. We are hoping for a comfortable, semi-formal event wherein people (especially us!!) are at ease and having fun. We have hired all of our vendors. The decisions are largely made.
I expressed to my parents early in the planning process that we appreciated their input, but that we planned to have a secular ceremony. I believe that they are deeply unhappy with the wedding that we have chosen. We have made many concessions - one such example: my brother is in seminary and will be allowed to offer a blessing, in lieu of being allowed to officiate the ceremony (which neither my fiancé nor myself were comfortable with, as we do not want a religious wedding).
I have never endured the kind of conflict I've had with my parents until we started wedding planning. They make demands and we try to compromise, but we are the only ones giving in. We give in and they push for more. This feels like the last straw. How can I either be comfortable doing something that resonates very negatively to make my parents happy? Or alternatively, how do I find the words to tell my parents that, no, I'm not doing that, or any other of the ritualistic anti-feminist things that seem to be very important to them?
My wonderful, supportive, endlessly-patient fiancé and I are getting married soon. We are financing most of the entire event ourselves. When we first became engaged, we told both sets of parents that we could afford to pay for the affair ourselves, but if they wanted to help pay for specific things, we would be happy to have their contributions. His parents have generously volunteered to pay for the rehearsal dinner and our photography. My parents' reaction was, "Well, it depends on how much what you want costs."
I asked them specifically if they would like to help pay for my dress. Response: "It depends on how much the dress you want costs." I'm not an extravagant person. I set a reasonable budget for myself based on what I could personally afford (being unsure that I would have any assistance from them). They ultimately paid for my dress, which cost about $600. When the stylist asked if I wanted to wear a veil, I said no, and this became an immediate and lasting source of contention (one of many) with my parents.
My parents, specifically my mother, are insisting that I wear a veil, with a blusher. Her rationale is that having the memory of her now-deceased father pulling the veil back was a very special memory for her. I respect this, but have the following issues with veils:
1) The veil as a historical reference to virginity
2) The historical context of using veils in arranged marriage
3) I'm paying a lot of money to look beautiful on my wedding day, and I would prefer not to have my face covered.
4) I just have a generalized feeling of yuckiness about the whole thing. I'm a professional and a feminist (as are most of my friends) - we are also not doing a bouquet toss or a garter throw, which also displeases them greatly. I'm barely comfortable with the optics of being "given away."
I value that this was a good memory for my mother, but our wedding is not their wedding, and her memory is not my memory.
My parents feel that, whether or not they are paying for something, they should be allowed to veto anything they dislike, and that planning our wedding without them being allowed to weigh in on every decision has been disrespectful. My fiancé and I have planned this wedding while living in different states, and each of us several hours away from our venue and vendors. We planned our wedding over the course of several weekends when we could both travel to the town where our venue is located, and the remaining loose ends tied up over the phone. We are hoping for a comfortable, semi-formal event wherein people (especially us!!) are at ease and having fun. We have hired all of our vendors. The decisions are largely made.
I expressed to my parents early in the planning process that we appreciated their input, but that we planned to have a secular ceremony. I believe that they are deeply unhappy with the wedding that we have chosen. We have made many concessions - one such example: my brother is in seminary and will be allowed to offer a blessing, in lieu of being allowed to officiate the ceremony (which neither my fiancé nor myself were comfortable with, as we do not want a religious wedding).
I have never endured the kind of conflict I've had with my parents until we started wedding planning. They make demands and we try to compromise, but we are the only ones giving in. We give in and they push for more. This feels like the last straw. How can I either be comfortable doing something that resonates very negatively to make my parents happy? Or alternatively, how do I find the words to tell my parents that, no, I'm not doing that, or any other of the ritualistic anti-feminist things that seem to be very important to them?
Weddding planning is hard, especially because it is fraught with some many deeply held expectations by everyone involved. This is going to be something you remember for the rest of your life (both the event and this fight). I would say something along the lines of "I understand that wearing a veil was a wonderful memory for you, but if I wear a veil my only memory will be deep resentment that you didn't respect and trust me enough to make my own decision."
If you are in the compromising mood, you could have a veil and do a photo shoot with your father pulling back the blusher to see you in your wedding dress before the ceremony and then ditch the veil before the wedding. We did a first look with my Dad and those are some of the my favorite photos from our wedding.
best of luck and congratulations on the wedding.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 4:31 AM on March 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
If you are in the compromising mood, you could have a veil and do a photo shoot with your father pulling back the blusher to see you in your wedding dress before the ceremony and then ditch the veil before the wedding. We did a first look with my Dad and those are some of the my favorite photos from our wedding.
best of luck and congratulations on the wedding.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 4:31 AM on March 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
I also refused to wear a veil, and my folks paid for the whole shindig. Don't give in to your parents. A possible script to try. "This wedding represents me and my fiance, and our values and beliefs, and launches us into our marriage. We are going to be true to ourselves so that we can look back on the wedding with joy and gratitude, not resentment that we did something that we hated." (On preview, Suffocating Kitty's suggestion is even stronger)
Instead of accommodating them on a photo shoot (cuz ugh, once the veil exists as any kind of option I bet your parents will fixate on it even more), I would suggest discussing how to make a family tradition for the next holiday that you will share with them that can honor your grandparents memory.
posted by spamandkimchi at 4:34 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Instead of accommodating them on a photo shoot (cuz ugh, once the veil exists as any kind of option I bet your parents will fixate on it even more), I would suggest discussing how to make a family tradition for the next holiday that you will share with them that can honor your grandparents memory.
posted by spamandkimchi at 4:34 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes. Stop compromising with your parents at all. Don't discuss with them. If they ask or bring wedding things up, change the subject or directly say that talking to them about the wedding is bringing conflict into your relationship with them which you do not want. Be prepared to hang up the phone (gotta go byeee!) or leave the room if they won't respect your boundaries.
My parents were deeply distressed about every aspect of my wedding. I fought with them until I realized they had no standing! It was my wedding that I was having to honor my partnership within my community, and I while wanted to include my parents in that community the whole point was that it was mine and my partner's. Not theirs. I don't necessarily recommend doing what I did which was have a huge fight where I basically threatened to cut them off if they didn't stop trying to control things. On the other hand it worked and had worked with boundary setting before and now I have a great relationship with them where we just respect each other's boundaries, no fighting necessary. YMMV
posted by (Over) Thinking at 4:37 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
My parents were deeply distressed about every aspect of my wedding. I fought with them until I realized they had no standing! It was my wedding that I was having to honor my partnership within my community, and I while wanted to include my parents in that community the whole point was that it was mine and my partner's. Not theirs. I don't necessarily recommend doing what I did which was have a huge fight where I basically threatened to cut them off if they didn't stop trying to control things. On the other hand it worked and had worked with boundary setting before and now I have a great relationship with them where we just respect each other's boundaries, no fighting necessary. YMMV
posted by (Over) Thinking at 4:37 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
Basically you have a conflict of values with them, and when you say you don't want to wear the veil you're insulting your mother because to her it was such a meaningful moment. I've had similar conflicts over values with my mother and it always results in hurt feelings because my mother does not call herself a feminist, and I do. we should remember that feminism includes all women, not just those that align with us ideologically. If you ignore all your mother's advice for your wedding, you will insult her so deeply that she will never forget for the rest of your life. Not sure if that's important or not hehe
It's wonderful that we're liberated women living the lives we choose. But that doesn't mean that those who care about us don't get to have their input. Your mother isn't asking you to wear the veil because she's trying to control you or impose patriarchal values on you. She's doing it because she loves you and wants you to have the best life possible, even if, for her, that means something completely different than what it means to you. She can't help it. That's who she is.
So when you explain to her why you don't want to wear the veil, forget about all the ideological reasons--- you'll get nowhere with those, and-- no offence, I say this as a feminist, but it's not the hill you want to die on.
you list a perfectly good reason not to wear the veil :
I'm paying a lot of money to look beautiful on my wedding day, and I would prefer not to have my face covered
Take this sentence and twist it around to make it sweeter, and voila, you have the perfect explanation.
"Mom, I'm getting this amazing makeup job done like you won't believe. This girl is incredible, and she did the makeup for xyz. OMG mom, you won't believe it. So yeah, I'm obviously not wearing the veil because I've already booked this makeup job. But OMG mom, wait til you see what this girl can do."
Talk to her in her language--- it's the least you could do. Weddings are supposed to be about family, for better or for worse!
posted by winterportage at 4:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's wonderful that we're liberated women living the lives we choose. But that doesn't mean that those who care about us don't get to have their input. Your mother isn't asking you to wear the veil because she's trying to control you or impose patriarchal values on you. She's doing it because she loves you and wants you to have the best life possible, even if, for her, that means something completely different than what it means to you. She can't help it. That's who she is.
So when you explain to her why you don't want to wear the veil, forget about all the ideological reasons--- you'll get nowhere with those, and-- no offence, I say this as a feminist, but it's not the hill you want to die on.
you list a perfectly good reason not to wear the veil :
I'm paying a lot of money to look beautiful on my wedding day, and I would prefer not to have my face covered
Take this sentence and twist it around to make it sweeter, and voila, you have the perfect explanation.
"Mom, I'm getting this amazing makeup job done like you won't believe. This girl is incredible, and she did the makeup for xyz. OMG mom, you won't believe it. So yeah, I'm obviously not wearing the veil because I've already booked this makeup job. But OMG mom, wait til you see what this girl can do."
Talk to her in her language--- it's the least you could do. Weddings are supposed to be about family, for better or for worse!
posted by winterportage at 4:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I let my mother have too much say in my wedding. I actually am okay with it because it's a very happy marriage of 22 years now! But I'll still give you the advice I needed which is...you can be kind but firm. It's your wedding. And although they may hassle you about it, it is actually your choice to argue about it or not. Here's what I suggest:
1. Take your parents out to dinner or have them over if you live separately (make sure you are the grown up hosting) and say to them "Mum, dad, I love you. Thanks for raising me to think for myself. I have been thinking lately and it is really important to me that my wedding be a source of joy, not conflict. I am going to ask you really seriously, right now, to respect my decisions. If you want to comment once nicely about things that are important to you, I will listen. But after that each decision is mine. I want you to be there for the day. If we keep arguing though, I'm just not going to discuss the details with you any more."
And then if they argue...don't argue. End the conversation or walk away. If your mum was going to /do/ things to get ready for the wedding like help decorate or whatever, assign those tasks to someone else just in case. Don't share every detail. Don't argue every detail because it is not their decision. You do not have to convince them. You do not have to do as they ask. You are finished discussing it.
2. A milder form of deflection would go like this:
You: No veil (I recommend never talking about it again, but.)
Mom: But that was my favourite moment!
You: Tell me about it mom...how did you feel when you were planning your wedding? Did you and grandma have any conflict?
3. Your mom: "Are you going to wear a veil?"
You: "Oh mom," (hug if you are a hugging family) "I'm not up for talking about this with you. Hey did you see the neighbours planted a whole new mulberry bush?"
This can be a hard thing but if you don't do it now you will end up doing it later (our big blowup came when I had kids.) Be kind and warm but firm. From now on, the veil is not up for discussion. You do not need your parents to support every little decision, you just need them to show up. (And if they don't, then that is their choice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
1. Take your parents out to dinner or have them over if you live separately (make sure you are the grown up hosting) and say to them "Mum, dad, I love you. Thanks for raising me to think for myself. I have been thinking lately and it is really important to me that my wedding be a source of joy, not conflict. I am going to ask you really seriously, right now, to respect my decisions. If you want to comment once nicely about things that are important to you, I will listen. But after that each decision is mine. I want you to be there for the day. If we keep arguing though, I'm just not going to discuss the details with you any more."
And then if they argue...don't argue. End the conversation or walk away. If your mum was going to /do/ things to get ready for the wedding like help decorate or whatever, assign those tasks to someone else just in case. Don't share every detail. Don't argue every detail because it is not their decision. You do not have to convince them. You do not have to do as they ask. You are finished discussing it.
2. A milder form of deflection would go like this:
You: No veil (I recommend never talking about it again, but.)
Mom: But that was my favourite moment!
You: Tell me about it mom...how did you feel when you were planning your wedding? Did you and grandma have any conflict?
3. Your mom: "Are you going to wear a veil?"
You: "Oh mom," (hug if you are a hugging family) "I'm not up for talking about this with you. Hey did you see the neighbours planted a whole new mulberry bush?"
This can be a hard thing but if you don't do it now you will end up doing it later (our big blowup came when I had kids.) Be kind and warm but firm. From now on, the veil is not up for discussion. You do not need your parents to support every little decision, you just need them to show up. (And if they don't, then that is their choice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
I mean, you could offer to take some photos with a veil, or choose a veil that doesn't cover your face, but it sounds like that will not make either of you happy. From the narrative you are presenting, it's not the veil, or the bouquet, or any other list of objects that will make your parents happy, it's the giving in to whatever the demand is today that makes them happy. You can't make them happy by agreeing to just one more thing. I release you from the obligation that if only you gave them This One Thing they would be happy.
"Parent, I love you and I love hearing your ideas/memories/whatever, but we're not going to do that thing."
Saying no politely is not being cruel or disrespectful. If they feel that it is, that's their own emotional reaction to work out. You don't have to participate in it.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:38 AM on March 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
"Parent, I love you and I love hearing your ideas/memories/whatever, but we're not going to do that thing."
Saying no politely is not being cruel or disrespectful. If they feel that it is, that's their own emotional reaction to work out. You don't have to participate in it.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:38 AM on March 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
It may help to shift your goal from convincing her why she's wrong to just stating your own plans. Her agreeing to your not wearing a veil is not actually a necessary component of your not wearing a veil.
posted by lazuli at 5:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [35 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 5:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [35 favorites]
This is not really about the veil or about the wedding ceremony. This is about your parents, or at least one of them, not being ready or willing to accept that you are no longer a child under their control, and not being ready or willing to accept that you may live your life according to your values rather than theirs. So it is about the wedding in that sense - the wedding is a huge symbol to them of your adulthood, and they want to make sure that you know that they get to control your adulthood. You can do it sweetly or you can do it firmly, but for the sake of your future you must tell them that the time has come for them to stop trying to tell you what to do.
posted by sheldman at 5:55 AM on March 30, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by sheldman at 5:55 AM on March 30, 2017 [34 favorites]
Agreed with all the others that you don't need to justify to your parents why you're not wearing a veil. You've explained yourself, they know your reasons, and honestly, it's not their call and they can't overrule you on any of this. There will be no veil. They can manage their own feelings about this, and if they escalate to threatening not to attend (or to perpetrate other craziness at the wedding) if you don't, then respond accordingly with, "I'm sorry you won't be there," or "That kind of behavior won't be tolerated and will result in being escorted out" or whatever you need to do.
Remember that they are being the unreasonable, inappropriate ones here, not you.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:13 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Remember that they are being the unreasonable, inappropriate ones here, not you.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:13 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
First, yes, the wedding is important, but the marriage is even more important. More important than the wedding day. Do something in service to your marriage and stand up to your parents.
Second, which memory would you rather have:
a.) a wedding, on your terms, that called on you to do something difficult (stand up to them) in service of your happiness, well-being, and independence, or
b.) a wedding, on their terms, whose planning and execution took the path of least resistance but did nothing in terms of your happiness, well-being, and independence?
I asked them specifically if they would like to help pay for my dress. Response: "It depends on how much the dress you want costs." This response immediately raised red flags for me. It sounds to me like your parents have been angling for power over you right out of the gate. An appropriate response would be, "We'll give you X amount toward the dress. Any extra and you'll pay for that, but we can give X." Saying "it depends" immediately puts them in a position of having veto power over the decision you (would like to) make. Are they acting out of a place of obligation as well? In other words, do they feel obligated to pay for some things? They are certainly behaving that way. I say this because, if it came from the heart, it would be a gift with no strings attached.
I have never endured the kind of conflict I've had with my parents until we started wedding planning.
Is it possible that you haven't had conflicts with them simply because you've acquiesced to all of their wishes for you in the past? Your post reads like this is the first time you've had to really stand up to them in any meaningful way. Are they pushy? Are you laid back? If you're generally laid back and this is the first time you're advocating for what you want, the conflict is going to feel magnified. I think this is where a lot of people give up and give their families what they want. The dynamic in place is so strong, magnified by the fact that It's A Wedding, and the tide is hard to turn, so to speak. My guess is they think your feminist leanings are cute, a phase, something you'll grow out of once you grow up. They don't respect you as a full-fledged human being, independent of them, and you need to change that.
They make demands and we try to compromise, but we are the only ones giving in. We give in and they push for more. This feels like the last straw. It feels like the last straw because, for you, it IS the last straw. The issue you face is whether you can communicate that effectively to them in a direct, meaningful way where they will take you seriously. Honestly, you sound like such a nice person, I wouldn't worry about being too direct.
How can I either be comfortable doing something that resonates very negatively to make my parents happy? It's unclear what resonates negatively for you. Is it standing up to them? If so, that's really good information for you. You need to explore that. Why does pushing back on THEIR wishes for YOUR wedding feel negative?
If it helps, think of it as standing up for yourself, not against them. Your post reads as if your family thinks in binary terms: it's us vs. them, it is or it isn't, we'll pay for either the entire dress or none of it, and only if we agree 100%. This is not a binary situation - there are shades of gray. Is it possible that you haven't had conflicts with them simply because you've acquiesced to all of their wishes for you in the past? Think of your reasons for wanting a non-religious ceremony, for not wanting a blusher/veil. Those are exactly the reasons you want to stand up to them.
I'm hesitant to pull the woman card here, but here goes: As young girls who grow up, we're basically trained to be "good girls" - to not make waves, to acquiesce, to do what we're told. This carries over into adulthood, and I've seen this so many times during wedding planning, where the bride is faced with a double whammy of not only standing up to YEARS of rolling over, but the stakes being so high because it's the most important day of her life. Try to think of this as an opportunity, and remember: Your marriage is more important than your wedding day. Do yourself and your husband a favor and break this dynamic now, before you are married, before you have children (if you plan on that), before they think they can continue to control you.
Or alternatively, how do I find the words to tell my parents that, no, I'm not doing that, or any other of the ritualistic anti-feminist things that seem to be very important to them? I can't emphasize enough - you don't need to justify your wishes to them. I'll say it again: You don't have to justify your wishes, why you want what you want, to them. They don't care about feminism, and honestly bringing that up in this context weakens your argument. Feminist or not, it's your wedding. Keep it short, keep it direct, and keep repeating what you said earlier:
"I value that this was a good memory for you, but our wedding is not your wedding, and your memory is not my memory."
You need to be direct, assertive, and clear. I think you're conflating feminism with the immediate concern of not wanting to push them away, hurt their feelings, or piss them off. I get it, but honestly, you can say anything to anyone if you say it in the right way.
Remember that, and you'll be fine. They might throw a fit. They might yell. They might get really passive aggressive. They might think that you're just having PMS and you'll come around.
Whatever. It's your day, it's your life. Make it your own. They'll get over it.
What would it take to make this your own? Returning whatever they bought toward the wedding, including the dress, and politely declining their continued help? Do whatever it takes, without feeling ashamed or feeling like you need to please them. Right now you're called to stand up for yourself.
Best of luck.
posted by onecircleaday at 6:16 AM on March 30, 2017 [33 favorites]
Second, which memory would you rather have:
a.) a wedding, on your terms, that called on you to do something difficult (stand up to them) in service of your happiness, well-being, and independence, or
b.) a wedding, on their terms, whose planning and execution took the path of least resistance but did nothing in terms of your happiness, well-being, and independence?
I asked them specifically if they would like to help pay for my dress. Response: "It depends on how much the dress you want costs." This response immediately raised red flags for me. It sounds to me like your parents have been angling for power over you right out of the gate. An appropriate response would be, "We'll give you X amount toward the dress. Any extra and you'll pay for that, but we can give X." Saying "it depends" immediately puts them in a position of having veto power over the decision you (would like to) make. Are they acting out of a place of obligation as well? In other words, do they feel obligated to pay for some things? They are certainly behaving that way. I say this because, if it came from the heart, it would be a gift with no strings attached.
I have never endured the kind of conflict I've had with my parents until we started wedding planning.
Is it possible that you haven't had conflicts with them simply because you've acquiesced to all of their wishes for you in the past? Your post reads like this is the first time you've had to really stand up to them in any meaningful way. Are they pushy? Are you laid back? If you're generally laid back and this is the first time you're advocating for what you want, the conflict is going to feel magnified. I think this is where a lot of people give up and give their families what they want. The dynamic in place is so strong, magnified by the fact that It's A Wedding, and the tide is hard to turn, so to speak. My guess is they think your feminist leanings are cute, a phase, something you'll grow out of once you grow up. They don't respect you as a full-fledged human being, independent of them, and you need to change that.
They make demands and we try to compromise, but we are the only ones giving in. We give in and they push for more. This feels like the last straw. It feels like the last straw because, for you, it IS the last straw. The issue you face is whether you can communicate that effectively to them in a direct, meaningful way where they will take you seriously. Honestly, you sound like such a nice person, I wouldn't worry about being too direct.
How can I either be comfortable doing something that resonates very negatively to make my parents happy? It's unclear what resonates negatively for you. Is it standing up to them? If so, that's really good information for you. You need to explore that. Why does pushing back on THEIR wishes for YOUR wedding feel negative?
If it helps, think of it as standing up for yourself, not against them. Your post reads as if your family thinks in binary terms: it's us vs. them, it is or it isn't, we'll pay for either the entire dress or none of it, and only if we agree 100%. This is not a binary situation - there are shades of gray. Is it possible that you haven't had conflicts with them simply because you've acquiesced to all of their wishes for you in the past? Think of your reasons for wanting a non-religious ceremony, for not wanting a blusher/veil. Those are exactly the reasons you want to stand up to them.
I'm hesitant to pull the woman card here, but here goes: As young girls who grow up, we're basically trained to be "good girls" - to not make waves, to acquiesce, to do what we're told. This carries over into adulthood, and I've seen this so many times during wedding planning, where the bride is faced with a double whammy of not only standing up to YEARS of rolling over, but the stakes being so high because it's the most important day of her life. Try to think of this as an opportunity, and remember: Your marriage is more important than your wedding day. Do yourself and your husband a favor and break this dynamic now, before you are married, before you have children (if you plan on that), before they think they can continue to control you.
Or alternatively, how do I find the words to tell my parents that, no, I'm not doing that, or any other of the ritualistic anti-feminist things that seem to be very important to them? I can't emphasize enough - you don't need to justify your wishes to them. I'll say it again: You don't have to justify your wishes, why you want what you want, to them. They don't care about feminism, and honestly bringing that up in this context weakens your argument. Feminist or not, it's your wedding. Keep it short, keep it direct, and keep repeating what you said earlier:
"I value that this was a good memory for you, but our wedding is not your wedding, and your memory is not my memory."
You need to be direct, assertive, and clear. I think you're conflating feminism with the immediate concern of not wanting to push them away, hurt their feelings, or piss them off. I get it, but honestly, you can say anything to anyone if you say it in the right way.
Remember that, and you'll be fine. They might throw a fit. They might yell. They might get really passive aggressive. They might think that you're just having PMS and you'll come around.
Whatever. It's your day, it's your life. Make it your own. They'll get over it.
What would it take to make this your own? Returning whatever they bought toward the wedding, including the dress, and politely declining their continued help? Do whatever it takes, without feeling ashamed or feeling like you need to please them. Right now you're called to stand up for yourself.
Best of luck.
posted by onecircleaday at 6:16 AM on March 30, 2017 [33 favorites]
I like the Internet standby shut-down of "That won't be possible! [redirect]" for these situations -- as others have noted above, the moment you engage in a discussion of the reasons, you're validating the idea that this is an appropriate subject for your parents to debate with you. It's not. And I think the more you engage with them, the more risk there is that it's going to cast a pall over the wedding *and* the planning process (which can be fun when people who are not you and your future spouse are not involved, I swear!).
Wanted to note that the current Dear Prudence has had a number of similar questions over the past year or so about parental expectations and attempted meddling in weddings. It may be soothing to know how common this is.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 6:23 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wanted to note that the current Dear Prudence has had a number of similar questions over the past year or so about parental expectations and attempted meddling in weddings. It may be soothing to know how common this is.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 6:23 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dude, this sucks. I'm sorry. :( I had issues when I was planning my wedding. It seems like shitting family stuff coming up is pretty much par for the course when it comes to planning a wedding.
My advice is to donkey this one.* If it comes up, just be totally deadpan and say "Nope." and then change the subject. The end. They keep bringing it up, just keep being an unmoveable donkey and say "No." For other things that matter less to you, be less of a donkey, engage in discussion and seek compromise, but for the ones that truly matter to you just be a donkey. I think the veil is donkey worthy.
Ultimately, what really helped me in times of "Oh my god, my family is a bucket of freaks!" was to sort of mentally view the wedding as EVERYONE'S but the marriage was OURS, if that makes sense. I ultimately allowed people more input than I was entirely cool with because some things mattered more to them than it did to me, and my end game here was to marry my husband. Were there things on my wedding day I wasn't 100% on? Sure. But it was still a wonderful day and I got to end it being married to the coolest guy ever. Focusing on the end game really helps.
*Being a donkey is possibly a family term, but it is definitely one my family uses a lot. It basically is a clear and blatant refusal to even entertain a discussion, because as soon as you make it seem like you're willing to discuss or justify, people see it as an opportunity to convince you otherwise. Being a donkey is just saying "no." with no justification or discussion. My best friend/cousin is the ultimate donkey. She is a wonderful, caring, friendly person but if she doesn't want to do something she just says "No." and there is zero movement or discussion. There is no convincing her to do things when she is in donkey mode, and she is so good at it that people now recognize when she is being a donkey about something and just don't even try to persuade her or discuss it because they know there is no moving her on the matter. My mom is also an amazingly effective donkey, mostly because she almost NEVER uses it but when she does you know there is zero discussion. Being a donkey can only be used for the things you TRULY don't want to move on, it is a bit of a go nuclear option if used correctly, but over time people start to recognize when you're being a donkey and just give up. Consistency is key to being a donkey.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:27 AM on March 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
My advice is to donkey this one.* If it comes up, just be totally deadpan and say "Nope." and then change the subject. The end. They keep bringing it up, just keep being an unmoveable donkey and say "No." For other things that matter less to you, be less of a donkey, engage in discussion and seek compromise, but for the ones that truly matter to you just be a donkey. I think the veil is donkey worthy.
Ultimately, what really helped me in times of "Oh my god, my family is a bucket of freaks!" was to sort of mentally view the wedding as EVERYONE'S but the marriage was OURS, if that makes sense. I ultimately allowed people more input than I was entirely cool with because some things mattered more to them than it did to me, and my end game here was to marry my husband. Were there things on my wedding day I wasn't 100% on? Sure. But it was still a wonderful day and I got to end it being married to the coolest guy ever. Focusing on the end game really helps.
*Being a donkey is possibly a family term, but it is definitely one my family uses a lot. It basically is a clear and blatant refusal to even entertain a discussion, because as soon as you make it seem like you're willing to discuss or justify, people see it as an opportunity to convince you otherwise. Being a donkey is just saying "no." with no justification or discussion. My best friend/cousin is the ultimate donkey. She is a wonderful, caring, friendly person but if she doesn't want to do something she just says "No." and there is zero movement or discussion. There is no convincing her to do things when she is in donkey mode, and she is so good at it that people now recognize when she is being a donkey about something and just don't even try to persuade her or discuss it because they know there is no moving her on the matter. My mom is also an amazingly effective donkey, mostly because she almost NEVER uses it but when she does you know there is zero discussion. Being a donkey can only be used for the things you TRULY don't want to move on, it is a bit of a go nuclear option if used correctly, but over time people start to recognize when you're being a donkey and just give up. Consistency is key to being a donkey.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:27 AM on March 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
If the veil comes up again, offer to give back the $600. Tell them that you are going to create the wedding of your dreams and that your parents wedding sounds wonderful for them. Then tell them the rest is going to be a surprise and the next they will hear about the wedding is when they get their invitation in the mail.
posted by AugustWest at 6:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [36 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 6:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [36 favorites]
You don't need to use the loaded, ideology-heavy language. She won't understand it, and it is hurtful, because it suggests that her happiest wedding memory was some backwards, unfeminist thing that she should be ashamed of. If she brings it up just say "veil's not for me since I'm spending so much on makeup and it's going to look just beautiful, you'll be so happy with the pictures."
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:58 AM on March 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:58 AM on March 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
I agree with everyone that you can't logic, argue or rationalize your mother out of her very emotional position. I also agree that you absolutely should not acquiesce and wear a veil. Wedding parties--as opposed to the legal act of marriage--are group affairs. They are meant as an invitation to celebrate your personal happiness with the people you love and include them in your joy. And balancing what's meaningful to you in expressing that joy through sharing it with your family and friends against how the people closest to you want you to express and share it can be really hard. But it sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of that already.
I also advocate the approach of just saying "Sorry, Mom, I'm not wearing a veil" and then redirecting to how happy you are that your parents are celebrating the wedding with you, that your brother is part of the wedding, that you're starting a wonderful marriage and how lovely your mom will look in the outfit she's picked out. How you're looking forward to [specific memory of celebrating with your parents that coincides with your vision of the event]*. . . Don't try to argue about whose vision of the wedding i more meaningful, just use her frame of reference to talk about your choices--how the choices you've made will be those meaningful memories for you, including having their love and support as you start your new family.
If you believe it will shut down your mother's belief that she has control over your appearance, you could offer to give back the money, but that seems fraught to me.
* I don't really know what that might be because I don't know how you've envisioned your ceremony. Is it offering a toast to your parents after someone toasts the new couple? Is having both your parents walk you down the aisle? Is it seeing their faces when your brother offers a blessing? Is it the poem you're going to have read? Is it some aspect of how they've modeled marriage that resonates with you?
My point is: you need to assure your mother that even though your wedding feels to her like a rejection of the things she thinks weddings are--and by extension her values about love and marriage and family--you really feel you're reflecting their love for you in your wedding and that you're not rejecting your "old" family in favor of a new one.
posted by crush at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also advocate the approach of just saying "Sorry, Mom, I'm not wearing a veil" and then redirecting to how happy you are that your parents are celebrating the wedding with you, that your brother is part of the wedding, that you're starting a wonderful marriage and how lovely your mom will look in the outfit she's picked out. How you're looking forward to [specific memory of celebrating with your parents that coincides with your vision of the event]*. . . Don't try to argue about whose vision of the wedding i more meaningful, just use her frame of reference to talk about your choices--how the choices you've made will be those meaningful memories for you, including having their love and support as you start your new family.
If you believe it will shut down your mother's belief that she has control over your appearance, you could offer to give back the money, but that seems fraught to me.
* I don't really know what that might be because I don't know how you've envisioned your ceremony. Is it offering a toast to your parents after someone toasts the new couple? Is having both your parents walk you down the aisle? Is it seeing their faces when your brother offers a blessing? Is it the poem you're going to have read? Is it some aspect of how they've modeled marriage that resonates with you?
My point is: you need to assure your mother that even though your wedding feels to her like a rejection of the things she thinks weddings are--and by extension her values about love and marriage and family--you really feel you're reflecting their love for you in your wedding and that you're not rejecting your "old" family in favor of a new one.
posted by crush at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wow. I think I'd just want to say, "Mom, it's not your wedding. I'm the one getting married now, and I'm not going to wear a veil", over and over again.
I get that parents have visions for their kids, are invested in particular ways, etc., but this is next-level projection. (Is your mom going through anything difficult right now, personally? If so, maybe talking through that would make a difference?)
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
I get that parents have visions for their kids, are invested in particular ways, etc., but this is next-level projection. (Is your mom going through anything difficult right now, personally? If so, maybe talking through that would make a difference?)
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
Its up to them to decide whether attending your wedding as planned by you and your spouse-to-be would be more troubling to them than skipping it entirely.
Its up to you to let them know this much beforehand - they do not get to make any choices about the event other than whether or not they will attend. You should make this clear to them in as non-emotional a manner as possible, at a time well beforehand.
People get weird about weddings, even very calm, very nice people who would have sworn to you that they were not going to get weird. Best of luck and congrats.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 7:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Its up to you to let them know this much beforehand - they do not get to make any choices about the event other than whether or not they will attend. You should make this clear to them in as non-emotional a manner as possible, at a time well beforehand.
People get weird about weddings, even very calm, very nice people who would have sworn to you that they were not going to get weird. Best of luck and congrats.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 7:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hey, I'm just here as another person who fell out terribly with my parents during wedding planning over issues related to how feminism was manifesting in our plans.
It's a horrible shock, good grief, I have NEVER fallen out with them like that as an adult. I think part of it is that that generation do not tend to know how to talk about their feelings, or even honestly access them half the time, and so potentially my dad deciding that my wedding was going to be a hideous testicle-crunching fem-crusade was actually just anger as an alternative to him just admitting to me (or himself) that he's having a tough time not being my number one guy anymore.
Or, you know, it's just them being their slightly-more-conservative-than-I'd-ever-really-realised selves. Still not totally sure.
In any case, we're out the other side now, and it's kind of fine. I guess I understand them a bit better in some ways, and my relationship with my partner grew stronger through all the days he listened to me cry about it and tried to help me figure it out.
If you want to hear from the other side, please memail me. When I was in the thick of it, it really helped when a few friends confided that they'd had similar experiences, in the sense of ohhhhh this is not me this is A Thing That Totally Happens.
posted by greenish at 8:08 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's a horrible shock, good grief, I have NEVER fallen out with them like that as an adult. I think part of it is that that generation do not tend to know how to talk about their feelings, or even honestly access them half the time, and so potentially my dad deciding that my wedding was going to be a hideous testicle-crunching fem-crusade was actually just anger as an alternative to him just admitting to me (or himself) that he's having a tough time not being my number one guy anymore.
Or, you know, it's just them being their slightly-more-conservative-than-I'd-ever-really-realised selves. Still not totally sure.
In any case, we're out the other side now, and it's kind of fine. I guess I understand them a bit better in some ways, and my relationship with my partner grew stronger through all the days he listened to me cry about it and tried to help me figure it out.
If you want to hear from the other side, please memail me. When I was in the thick of it, it really helped when a few friends confided that they'd had similar experiences, in the sense of ohhhhh this is not me this is A Thing That Totally Happens.
posted by greenish at 8:08 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'll throw out a dissenting opinion.
Oh boy...weddings. Weddings are a lot of things, but to me, not one of them is "a hill I want to die on."
I hear the other people who are saying that the wedding is a symbol of your adult life, you should draw the line in the sand now, etc. and I honestly just disagree with that. A wedding is just a party. It's a five hour event or less. The actual ceremony is about twenty minutes. I apologize if I'm wrong, but from your question I get the sense that you actually take after your mother a bit in that you're both planners who think about details and imbue every decision with a LOT of meaning. It's a statement, it's symbolic, and that's IMPORTANT. I get the sense that your mom is the same way but just in the opposite direction.
I suggest that both of you (but you can only control you) take the wedding in its entirety much less seriously. Truly, as someone who has planned my own wedding, I deeply, deeply recommend taking a giant step back of detachment and amusement and not making the wedding into A Sacred Statement in your mind either way (with perhaps the one exception of the actual vows spoken.) It (hopefully!) will not be the best day of your life. Something (more than one something) will go comically wrong. To most other people, it is just another event. It won't make the majority of guests think much at all, in reality, except you and your parents and grandparents. Really, a wedding is just part of life. It's not something you can remove entirely from the ordinary flow of conflict and mistakes and coincidences that occur daily.
Now, having kids and raising them for 18 years? Yes, absolutely, that's the hill you want to die on. But a five hour party? I don't think that's actually a seminal battle in the war. Even if "won" it will not turn the tides for long.
Traditionally, parents of the couple (especially the bride) feel that the wedding reflects on them, and often their friends/family judge them for the wedding. It's only recently that the couple plans the wedding themselves. Very recently, really.
A veil is not going to make you Not a Feminist. It's just a veil. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
posted by stockpuppet at 8:09 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh boy...weddings. Weddings are a lot of things, but to me, not one of them is "a hill I want to die on."
I hear the other people who are saying that the wedding is a symbol of your adult life, you should draw the line in the sand now, etc. and I honestly just disagree with that. A wedding is just a party. It's a five hour event or less. The actual ceremony is about twenty minutes. I apologize if I'm wrong, but from your question I get the sense that you actually take after your mother a bit in that you're both planners who think about details and imbue every decision with a LOT of meaning. It's a statement, it's symbolic, and that's IMPORTANT. I get the sense that your mom is the same way but just in the opposite direction.
I suggest that both of you (but you can only control you) take the wedding in its entirety much less seriously. Truly, as someone who has planned my own wedding, I deeply, deeply recommend taking a giant step back of detachment and amusement and not making the wedding into A Sacred Statement in your mind either way (with perhaps the one exception of the actual vows spoken.) It (hopefully!) will not be the best day of your life. Something (more than one something) will go comically wrong. To most other people, it is just another event. It won't make the majority of guests think much at all, in reality, except you and your parents and grandparents. Really, a wedding is just part of life. It's not something you can remove entirely from the ordinary flow of conflict and mistakes and coincidences that occur daily.
Now, having kids and raising them for 18 years? Yes, absolutely, that's the hill you want to die on. But a five hour party? I don't think that's actually a seminal battle in the war. Even if "won" it will not turn the tides for long.
Traditionally, parents of the couple (especially the bride) feel that the wedding reflects on them, and often their friends/family judge them for the wedding. It's only recently that the couple plans the wedding themselves. Very recently, really.
A veil is not going to make you Not a Feminist. It's just a veil. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
posted by stockpuppet at 8:09 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm afraid I've got to recommend against getting a veil just for photos: think about it.... once your mother knows there is an actual veil available --- not just a hypothetical "you should wear a veil!" veil --- she'll probably ramp up the pressure to wear it in the wedding as well as in those photos.
You're going to have to simply tell her no, you wearing a veil is not up for discussion: that old favorite, "No, that will not be possible" is good. Or even a flat "No." Or "Absolutely not, under any circumstances." And then walk away: don't get trapped into explaining yourself. Walk away, get off the phone, ignore any email or text about veils. Do not, under any circumstances, let her trap you into any discussion about them.
You've got to hold firm now, because if you don't she won't stop, she'll just keep trying to wear you down, like water dripping on a rock. (And if she shows up with a veil, even her own old one, do not let her talk you into trying it on, even "just for a moment!". No veil discussion, no veil anything, ever.)
posted by easily confused at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
You're going to have to simply tell her no, you wearing a veil is not up for discussion: that old favorite, "No, that will not be possible" is good. Or even a flat "No." Or "Absolutely not, under any circumstances." And then walk away: don't get trapped into explaining yourself. Walk away, get off the phone, ignore any email or text about veils. Do not, under any circumstances, let her trap you into any discussion about them.
You've got to hold firm now, because if you don't she won't stop, she'll just keep trying to wear you down, like water dripping on a rock. (And if she shows up with a veil, even her own old one, do not let her talk you into trying it on, even "just for a moment!". No veil discussion, no veil anything, ever.)
posted by easily confused at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
My parents feel that, whether or not they are paying for something, they should be allowed to veto anything they dislike, and that planning our wedding without them being allowed to weigh in on every decision has been disrespectful.
Your parents are wrong.
posted by grouse at 8:19 AM on March 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
Your parents are wrong.
posted by grouse at 8:19 AM on March 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
My parents feel that, whether or not they are paying for something, they should be allowed to veto anything they dislike, and that planning our wedding without them being allowed to weigh in on every decision has been disrespectful.
Hey, they feel how they feel. You don't have to fix their feelings. If they feel like you should be fixing their feelings, they are incorrect. If you've been a fixer of your parents feelings in the past, this may be difficult for you to get used to, but it's a great step to being part of a new, chosen family with your partner and not your parent's child who they have control over.
My mom was always someone whose feelings, she felt, ranked higher than mine because she felt them more strongly and so she felt that the person who felt most strongly should ... win? And I did not. And honestly she can't MAKE you wear the veil because you have personal autonomy even if it doesn't feel like it. I agree with others, I would not debate this since they are not being reasonable and are really trying to meddle in things that are between you and your fiancee. I call my approach Loving Broken Record.
You: "Mom I love you but this is somewhere we disagree and I'm not going to change my mind on this point. No veil"
Mom: "But blabity bla my wedding and blabla my feelings and blalba"
You: "Mom I love you but this is somewhere we disagree and I'm not going to change my mind on this point. No veil"
Mom: "It's your fault I feel bad!"
You: "I love you. No veil."
Them not leaving it alone is poor etiquette on their part and yet they are framing it like you are the rude one because you won't accede to their wishes. They are incorrect.
posted by jessamyn at 8:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
Hey, they feel how they feel. You don't have to fix their feelings. If they feel like you should be fixing their feelings, they are incorrect. If you've been a fixer of your parents feelings in the past, this may be difficult for you to get used to, but it's a great step to being part of a new, chosen family with your partner and not your parent's child who they have control over.
My mom was always someone whose feelings, she felt, ranked higher than mine because she felt them more strongly and so she felt that the person who felt most strongly should ... win? And I did not. And honestly she can't MAKE you wear the veil because you have personal autonomy even if it doesn't feel like it. I agree with others, I would not debate this since they are not being reasonable and are really trying to meddle in things that are between you and your fiancee. I call my approach Loving Broken Record.
You: "Mom I love you but this is somewhere we disagree and I'm not going to change my mind on this point. No veil"
Mom: "But blabity bla my wedding and blabla my feelings and blalba"
You: "Mom I love you but this is somewhere we disagree and I'm not going to change my mind on this point. No veil"
Mom: "It's your fault I feel bad!"
You: "I love you. No veil."
Them not leaving it alone is poor etiquette on their part and yet they are framing it like you are the rude one because you won't accede to their wishes. They are incorrect.
posted by jessamyn at 8:29 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
Don't accept money from your parents if you have a problem with their conditions for giving the money.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:02 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:02 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm barely comfortable with the optics of being "given away."
I had both my parents walk me down the aisle, my husband's parents also walked him down the aisle. We NEVER used the phrase "given away." We just saw it as both families participating in our important day. Our vows never mentioned anything about "who gives this woman" or anything like that either.
As a feminist/professional/non-virgin/adult I was really happy with this. I got to include my family in the ceremony, it wasn't just my dad so there wasn't that implied paternalism.
posted by magnetsphere at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
I had both my parents walk me down the aisle, my husband's parents also walked him down the aisle. We NEVER used the phrase "given away." We just saw it as both families participating in our important day. Our vows never mentioned anything about "who gives this woman" or anything like that either.
As a feminist/professional/non-virgin/adult I was really happy with this. I got to include my family in the ceremony, it wasn't just my dad so there wasn't that implied paternalism.
posted by magnetsphere at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
My dear friend married into a superreligious family. She found a dress she liked at Goodwill for some ridiculously fantastic price like $30, but then she gained a few pounds so she went out and found another one. It was more expensive but really gorgeous. The first one was snow white and the second one was ivory. Well, the parents-in-law went out of their minds begging her not to wear the ivory dress but to wear the much better white one from Goodwill. (They didn't tell her but they sure told their son that they objected to the ivory one because the ivory one meant she was a slut.) My friend and husband-to-be were both deep into their 30s when they got married and neither of them were virgins but it didn't matter to the parents. They wanted the white dress and they were totally willing to make everybody miserable over it and ruin the wedding. So my friend said, "Okay, sure! I'll wear the white one!" And she wore the ivory one. And nobody noticed. A fun twist: by the time the wedding rolled around she'd lost a few pounds, so she could fit into the Goodwill dress again. Midway through the ceremony she changed dresses and reappeared to accept toasts and throw the bouquet in the white one. And nobody noticed. My friend's son is a teenager, now, and still nobody has noticed. The parents do not know that this happened. There are pictures of her in both dresses. Nobody noticed. Nobody. Noticed. I was a bridesmaid, and I only know because she told me.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:25 AM on March 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 9:25 AM on March 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
A wedding is a great time to (once again) define that you're an adult who makes her own decisions. Conduct your wedding the way you want to. The more that you accommodate your parents' wishes now, the more that they feel free to barge in with demands regarding your marriage, childrearing (if you're having kids), etc. Draw a clear line and limit how much you're talking with them about it and find your, "we'll take it into consideration" line. Repeat as necessary. Also, congratulations!
posted by quince at 9:27 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by quince at 9:27 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
The idea of being coerced into wearing a veil is giving me the heebie jeebies.
If they felt entitled to making you wear a veil because they had paid for the dress, I'd say pay them $600 to shut up about it (which wouldn't work but would sure feel damn good, minus the loss of $600). If they just feel like they should be able to tell you what to do for no reason, I mean... "No, I'm not going to do that. I don't want to talk about it anymore, it's not happening."
posted by stoneandstar at 9:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
If they felt entitled to making you wear a veil because they had paid for the dress, I'd say pay them $600 to shut up about it (which wouldn't work but would sure feel damn good, minus the loss of $600). If they just feel like they should be able to tell you what to do for no reason, I mean... "No, I'm not going to do that. I don't want to talk about it anymore, it's not happening."
posted by stoneandstar at 9:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
You've got a lot of suggestions to help you put your foot down, and feel okay about putting your foot down, and decide what is and isn't worth it to put your foot down.
Setting aside the question of whether a woman should be required to compromise about her own damn wedding, one middle-ground would be the modern "veil" that is a gauzy thing worn in your hair and never covering your face.
posted by aimedwander at 9:44 AM on March 30, 2017
Setting aside the question of whether a woman should be required to compromise about her own damn wedding, one middle-ground would be the modern "veil" that is a gauzy thing worn in your hair and never covering your face.
posted by aimedwander at 9:44 AM on March 30, 2017
Agreed, though, that getting political about it isn't going to help. I mean, what if she wanted you to wear some hideous puff-sleeved 80s "vintage" monstrosity for sentimental reasons? You would not want to do that either! Veils are not particularly popular right now, and I haven't been to a wedding where a woman wore a veil for a long time. Probably definitely for social/feminist reasons, but it's also just... not modern, and whatever. The older I get the more I realize how disturbing it is to control what people wear.
If you wanted the veil and your mom was raging about how regressive it was and how disappointed she was that you were wearing a patriarchal symbol in your own wedding, I doubt a lot of people would say, "hey, just compromise! Not a hill to die on!" We tend to sympathize more with traditional, conservative things, because, idk, they're "innocent" or something (they're not). So, I don't know.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:49 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you wanted the veil and your mom was raging about how regressive it was and how disappointed she was that you were wearing a patriarchal symbol in your own wedding, I doubt a lot of people would say, "hey, just compromise! Not a hill to die on!" We tend to sympathize more with traditional, conservative things, because, idk, they're "innocent" or something (they're not). So, I don't know.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:49 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your parents aren't going to be happy no matter what, because you're not having the religious wedding they want you to have. So, you may as well make decisions that make YOU happy, since it sounds like they'll be upset regardless. And 2 unhappy people is better than 3 unhappy people. :)
That said, I would try really hard not to make this a debate about politics, ideology, and feminism. When you go down that path, I think what your mom may be hearing is "I disapprove of the fact that YOU wore a veil, and I think grandpa was a terrible sexist patriarch, and your lovely wedding memory is bad." (I'm sure that's not your intent, but probably what she is hearing.) Instead, I would pitch it in more generic terms, such as "I want to feel beautiful on my wedding day, and for me, a veil won't make me feel beautiful."
You could also try pulling some mild "bridezilla" tactics -- this is obviously a terrible societal stereotype, but I actually found it to be a pretty useful one when I needed to put down my foot with people and the bottom line was that we were going to do things my way. For example, my mother thought we should not hire a photographer because it was a waste of (our) money -- we were paying, not her, but she was quite adamant about it. Yes, really. I tried doing all the logical and emotional arguments with her, but eventually I ended up just saying "You know what, this is my special day, and this is what I want, so that's what we are doing. If you fight me on this, you are ruining my special day." I did it with sort of a joking tone, halfway serious and halfway poking fun at the bridezilla stereotype. I wonder if something like that might work well here -- instead of going into a treatise on all the symbolism and history behind veils, try
You: "Mom, this is my special day and wearing a veil will ruin it for me."
Mom: "Oh, but I have such great memories/I really want you to/etc."
You: "I understand, but it's my special day. I'm the bride and you know you can't ruin the day for the bride!"
etc.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:59 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
That said, I would try really hard not to make this a debate about politics, ideology, and feminism. When you go down that path, I think what your mom may be hearing is "I disapprove of the fact that YOU wore a veil, and I think grandpa was a terrible sexist patriarch, and your lovely wedding memory is bad." (I'm sure that's not your intent, but probably what she is hearing.) Instead, I would pitch it in more generic terms, such as "I want to feel beautiful on my wedding day, and for me, a veil won't make me feel beautiful."
You could also try pulling some mild "bridezilla" tactics -- this is obviously a terrible societal stereotype, but I actually found it to be a pretty useful one when I needed to put down my foot with people and the bottom line was that we were going to do things my way. For example, my mother thought we should not hire a photographer because it was a waste of (our) money -- we were paying, not her, but she was quite adamant about it. Yes, really. I tried doing all the logical and emotional arguments with her, but eventually I ended up just saying "You know what, this is my special day, and this is what I want, so that's what we are doing. If you fight me on this, you are ruining my special day." I did it with sort of a joking tone, halfway serious and halfway poking fun at the bridezilla stereotype. I wonder if something like that might work well here -- instead of going into a treatise on all the symbolism and history behind veils, try
You: "Mom, this is my special day and wearing a veil will ruin it for me."
Mom: "Oh, but I have such great memories/I really want you to/etc."
You: "I understand, but it's my special day. I'm the bride and you know you can't ruin the day for the bride!"
etc.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:59 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Suffocating Kitty's photo compromise sounds very sweet; that kind of thing would be very generous on your part.
If it was me, anytime my mother brought up the question of a veil, I would wave my hand, laugh, and say, "Oh, Mom! You and your veils!" And then not engage on the subject. If she keeps on and on to the point where you have to say something else, you could add something like, "You can wear a veil if you like, Mom" or "But I'm going to do the dance of the seven veils at the reception, and I don't want to ruin the surprise."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:22 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
If it was me, anytime my mother brought up the question of a veil, I would wave my hand, laugh, and say, "Oh, Mom! You and your veils!" And then not engage on the subject. If she keeps on and on to the point where you have to say something else, you could add something like, "You can wear a veil if you like, Mom" or "But I'm going to do the dance of the seven veils at the reception, and I don't want to ruin the surprise."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:22 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
I still think your best bet would be a flat refusal to even discuss wearing a veil, but if you want to mess with Mom's mind: you mention the veil's historical reference to virginity. Did you know lifting that veil is a symbolic deflowering? So if one reason your mom wants you to wear a veil is so Dad can do the traditional bit about lifting it over your head at the ceremony, then what she is advocating is having your father symbolically commit incest with his daughter.....
It'd depend on your mother, of course, but it just might shut her up for a while!
posted by easily confused at 10:40 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
It'd depend on your mother, of course, but it just might shut her up for a while!
posted by easily confused at 10:40 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
easily confused -- Yeah, but bringing this sort of thing up is going to also send the message of "I think grandpa symbolically committed incest with YOU." Which is probably not going to reduce tensions...
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I got to, "I asked them specifically if they would like to help pay for my dress. Response: "It depends on how much the dress you want costs,"" and immediately thought you should disinvite them to the wedding.
I'm posting this because I hope my comment gives you a laugh and some perspective. I'm sorry your parents are unaware you are no longer 14 years old. Seriously, tho. Stop treating them like they have authority over you and/or that their demands are remotely normal given the fact that you are an adult and their money is not involved.
Also... Congratulations and enjoy your day!!
posted by jbenben at 10:57 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm posting this because I hope my comment gives you a laugh and some perspective. I'm sorry your parents are unaware you are no longer 14 years old. Seriously, tho. Stop treating them like they have authority over you and/or that their demands are remotely normal given the fact that you are an adult and their money is not involved.
Also... Congratulations and enjoy your day!!
posted by jbenben at 10:57 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh Lord my wedding was a hot mess wherein I was caught between what my parents wanted and what my husband wanted. To hell with what I wanted. I should have walked away from both but here I am, married 23 years.
Do what you want.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 11:20 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Do what you want.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 11:20 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can't look at the photos to this day.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 11:21 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 11:21 AM on March 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
Actually new thought, whenever she brings it up just say "is that a veiled threat"
posted by stoneandstar at 11:56 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 11:56 AM on March 30, 2017 [25 favorites]
See there? KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat can't look at the photos to this day, whereas my friend gets to look at herself in not one but TWO really flattering dresses that she spent nearly nothing on.
I say next time your mom brings this up you say, "Oh, dang, I'm sorry, I thought I told you. I had an epiphany and realized you're right and I'm going to wear one." And then just don't fuckin wear one.
In the case she notices on the day, choose from a number of fun responses:
Get absurd: "It's right HERE! Can't you SEE it?" (point at nothing on your head)
Offer a substitute depravity: "Tammy got plowed on appletinis last night and threw it to the stripper and he, uh. He used it in his act. As a... a kind of hat, I guess you could say? Anyway. I told Mike where it had been and he categorically refused to be in the church with it, so I had to throw it away. Please don't mention it; he's already heartbroken."
Raise the piety stakes: "Mike's great uncle heard at church that veils are the thin edge of the sharia law wedge and Christian women should show their faces. He grabbed it off my head back there and set it on fire with his rosewood Wayne LaPierre NRA lighter."
Distract! Tip the cake over. Pull down the tent! Knock over a maid and start a domino effect in the receiving line. Conscript bridesmaids or groomsmen or both to hang around your mother and at the first sign of discord, harmonize "going to the chapel" at the tops of their lungs.
Raise the caring-about-inconsequential-bullshit stakes: "My veil! MY VEIL! Where is it? No! My wedding is ruined!" Drop to the floor in gibbering hysterics.
Turn the tables on her and say to her the kind of thing she should be saying to you because it's what's motivating this whole idiotic veil thing: "I love our family so much and I feel sad. This is such a huge change. We're not ever going to be the same family, now, because I'm going to be a married person and you're not going to be my parents in the same old way. I'm glad, of course, but it makes me sad, too, and a little scared. I can't stay your little girl, but I will always love you guys."
posted by Don Pepino at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
I say next time your mom brings this up you say, "Oh, dang, I'm sorry, I thought I told you. I had an epiphany and realized you're right and I'm going to wear one." And then just don't fuckin wear one.
In the case she notices on the day, choose from a number of fun responses:
Get absurd: "It's right HERE! Can't you SEE it?" (point at nothing on your head)
Offer a substitute depravity: "Tammy got plowed on appletinis last night and threw it to the stripper and he, uh. He used it in his act. As a... a kind of hat, I guess you could say? Anyway. I told Mike where it had been and he categorically refused to be in the church with it, so I had to throw it away. Please don't mention it; he's already heartbroken."
Raise the piety stakes: "Mike's great uncle heard at church that veils are the thin edge of the sharia law wedge and Christian women should show their faces. He grabbed it off my head back there and set it on fire with his rosewood Wayne LaPierre NRA lighter."
Distract! Tip the cake over. Pull down the tent! Knock over a maid and start a domino effect in the receiving line. Conscript bridesmaids or groomsmen or both to hang around your mother and at the first sign of discord, harmonize "going to the chapel" at the tops of their lungs.
Raise the caring-about-inconsequential-bullshit stakes: "My veil! MY VEIL! Where is it? No! My wedding is ruined!" Drop to the floor in gibbering hysterics.
Turn the tables on her and say to her the kind of thing she should be saying to you because it's what's motivating this whole idiotic veil thing: "I love our family so much and I feel sad. This is such a huge change. We're not ever going to be the same family, now, because I'm going to be a married person and you're not going to be my parents in the same old way. I'm glad, of course, but it makes me sad, too, and a little scared. I can't stay your little girl, but I will always love you guys."
posted by Don Pepino at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
You could always threaten to do what I did: invite them to the staid, utterly atheist civil ceremony at which everyone looks super serious in the photos, and not to the exactly-the-way-WE-wanted-it reception at which the photos show everyone having an uproarious time, the happy couple playing on stage in a rock band, and the bride wearing knitted antlers on her head the whole night (not hyperbole).
Seriously, do it your way as much as you can. This is the first day of the rest of your life.
Strongly recommend reminding your mother of how much she resented having to do [I'm sure it was something] that [whichever older relative] insisted on at her wedding. A friend of mine did this with her mother. It didn't work ("Not the same thing!" she cried - it was almost exactly the same thing) but at least it set the expectation that it wasn't Mommy's Wedding Part Two, it was Daughter's Wedding.
posted by pammeke at 12:59 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Seriously, do it your way as much as you can. This is the first day of the rest of your life.
Strongly recommend reminding your mother of how much she resented having to do [I'm sure it was something] that [whichever older relative] insisted on at her wedding. A friend of mine did this with her mother. It didn't work ("Not the same thing!" she cried - it was almost exactly the same thing) but at least it set the expectation that it wasn't Mommy's Wedding Part Two, it was Daughter's Wedding.
posted by pammeke at 12:59 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Call the bluff, they ultimately will do anything to attend, I promise you.
I used to look at my brother in perplexion; he would do anything he wanted and tell my parents to get effed all the time, and they just kept coming back.
Then I realised, they just kept coming back. Being the "good son" was fine when it didn't bother me, but seeing my brother, I realised I could put my own needs first and my parents, despite the threats and the ultimatum s etc would grudgingly always go along, cause they r want to be part of my life.
I have never used this as a licence for douchiness, but it's great to remember at times.
So you have been good cop, now be bad cop. "I have told you I'm not wearing a veil, I don't want to discuss with you again, ever, and if you bring it up, I'll leave the room. If it bothers you too much, skip that part of the ceremony. Don't talk to me about it again, no matter what." And then follow through.
Boom. They'll be there, I guarantee it.
posted by smoke at 1:20 PM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I used to look at my brother in perplexion; he would do anything he wanted and tell my parents to get effed all the time, and they just kept coming back.
Then I realised, they just kept coming back. Being the "good son" was fine when it didn't bother me, but seeing my brother, I realised I could put my own needs first and my parents, despite the threats and the ultimatum s etc would grudgingly always go along, cause they r want to be part of my life.
I have never used this as a licence for douchiness, but it's great to remember at times.
So you have been good cop, now be bad cop. "I have told you I'm not wearing a veil, I don't want to discuss with you again, ever, and if you bring it up, I'll leave the room. If it bothers you too much, skip that part of the ceremony. Don't talk to me about it again, no matter what." And then follow through.
Boom. They'll be there, I guarantee it.
posted by smoke at 1:20 PM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
whyyy some folks feel like throwing a wrench in peeps wedding plans i will never understand.
agree that this is just more about losing their little kiddo to the world than anything else.
so.
be kind, be kind, be kind.
and hold your ground. (and stop consulting them about everything! a "ooh ma, everythings going just dandy!" should be enough.) good luck! and enjoy!!
posted by speakeasy at 2:15 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
agree that this is just more about losing their little kiddo to the world than anything else.
so.
be kind, be kind, be kind.
and hold your ground. (and stop consulting them about everything! a "ooh ma, everythings going just dandy!" should be enough.) good luck! and enjoy!!
posted by speakeasy at 2:15 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nthing all of the posts that say that you should do what you want. It sounds as though your mother has had a vision of how your wedding day would look and be, and it's another version of her own wedding day. It hasn't seemed to occur to her (yet) that you're an autonomous person who is making her own choices.
Marriage is a super-big deal for some people. For some traditional parents of daughters, it's a sign that their daughter really has grown up, and they will no longer be the most important people in her life*. Your mother may be grieving that, and expressing that through trying to control and dictate. Or, she may just have never realized that you're your own separate being, who is raised and is going to life and work and marry as you see fit and is reacting to that loss.
*The expectations are radically different for women who marry into families like this - or so my cousins-in-law tell me.
posted by dancing_angel at 3:08 PM on March 30, 2017
Marriage is a super-big deal for some people. For some traditional parents of daughters, it's a sign that their daughter really has grown up, and they will no longer be the most important people in her life*. Your mother may be grieving that, and expressing that through trying to control and dictate. Or, she may just have never realized that you're your own separate being, who is raised and is going to life and work and marry as you see fit and is reacting to that loss.
*The expectations are radically different for women who marry into families like this - or so my cousins-in-law tell me.
posted by dancing_angel at 3:08 PM on March 30, 2017
I let my mother do my wedding day (15 years ago) the way she wanted and I do regret it. I pretty much never look at the photos because all the elements of the reception and service don't hold much meaning for me, or remind me of conflicts that I wish I'd held my ground on.I went with her ideas mainly to keep the peace, but ultimately it made things worse, because my brother watched and learned, and now that he's getting married, he decided he'd rather just elope than have to deal with either the arguments or the steam-rolling. And you can imagine the reaction to an elopement!
posted by lollusc at 4:30 PM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 4:30 PM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am so with you. I agree with saying, "I'm not wearing a veil. This is non-negotiable."
The way I see it, you have two options: 1) Sorry, Mom. Not happening. 2) Sorry, Mom. Not happening. Instead, we'll do this.
1) This is pretty clear and other commenters have covered this. Do not engage. Do not explain.
2)Instead of offering a compromise like wearing a veil in the photos, you could pick a treasured memory to honor instead.
And then you could follow it up with, "Instead, I was hoping Dad and I could have a carrot-throwing competition like when I was little."
Instead, I was hoping...
- you both could read this beloved children's book before the vows.
- Dad and I could do our first dance wearing his neckties on our heads like that one goofy picture in the hallway.
-Instead of removing a veil, Dad and I could do our secret handshake.
*I realize all of these skew towards childhood memories but really the idea is to pick something special. Or make a new special memory.
In short, incorporate something you both have connection to.
Other phrases:
- I'm sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to honoring such a cherished memory.
-I'm glad that you're fond of that moment with Grandpa and your veil. I don't want a veil, so I'm going to have a different special memory.
-Hmm. I'm talk to Dad directly about that.
-I'm glad you enjoyed having a veil in your wedding. This is my wedding and I'm making this decision.
-Lots of people wear veils on their weddings and they like what it means. I just don't feel like that really represents my relationship with Dad. Instead, we're going to do something more personal. (Instead, we're going to do something that honors you both.)
-I know you like the veil. I'm still not doing it. I'm happy with my choice.
It's up to you to decide which will work better for you.
Basically:
1) Dealing with unreasonable people is best done by not giving reasons.
2) Redirect something she wouldn't be able to say no to.
Good luck, congratulations, happy wedding!
posted by meemzi at 4:41 PM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
The way I see it, you have two options: 1) Sorry, Mom. Not happening. 2) Sorry, Mom. Not happening. Instead, we'll do this.
1) This is pretty clear and other commenters have covered this. Do not engage. Do not explain.
2)Instead of offering a compromise like wearing a veil in the photos, you could pick a treasured memory to honor instead.
And then you could follow it up with, "Instead, I was hoping Dad and I could have a carrot-throwing competition like when I was little."
Instead, I was hoping...
- you both could read this beloved children's book before the vows.
- Dad and I could do our first dance wearing his neckties on our heads like that one goofy picture in the hallway.
-Instead of removing a veil, Dad and I could do our secret handshake.
*I realize all of these skew towards childhood memories but really the idea is to pick something special. Or make a new special memory.
In short, incorporate something you both have connection to.
Other phrases:
- I'm sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to honoring such a cherished memory.
-I'm glad that you're fond of that moment with Grandpa and your veil. I don't want a veil, so I'm going to have a different special memory.
-Hmm. I'm talk to Dad directly about that.
-I'm glad you enjoyed having a veil in your wedding. This is my wedding and I'm making this decision.
-Lots of people wear veils on their weddings and they like what it means. I just don't feel like that really represents my relationship with Dad. Instead, we're going to do something more personal. (Instead, we're going to do something that honors you both.)
-I know you like the veil. I'm still not doing it. I'm happy with my choice.
It's up to you to decide which will work better for you.
Basically:
1) Dealing with unreasonable people is best done by not giving reasons.
2) Redirect something she wouldn't be able to say no to.
Good luck, congratulations, happy wedding!
posted by meemzi at 4:41 PM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Ask her if her own wedding was planned and dictated for her by her mother. This conversation could go one of two ways. If she states, no it wasn't, she got to choose what she wanted, tell her you'd like the same opportunity to have the wedding you want. After, all, she got to plan hers and now she wants to do yours too?! How is that fair? Your day, your choice.
If she tells you her mother took over her wedding, ask her how it felt to not have her own opinions listened to on her special day. Tell her that while you understand that her father removing her veil was a special moment for her, you won't have that moment, because your mother has already destroyed that opportunity by turning the wedding veil into a huge fight. Instead, going the way she is now, you'll remember it as the turning point where your relationship was irreparably damaged. She needs to back off and allow you to have the wedding you want, to create your own special memories. She's had hers. You love her, but if she continues to push, she will get exactly the opposite of what she hoped for.
posted by Jubey at 6:14 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
If she tells you her mother took over her wedding, ask her how it felt to not have her own opinions listened to on her special day. Tell her that while you understand that her father removing her veil was a special moment for her, you won't have that moment, because your mother has already destroyed that opportunity by turning the wedding veil into a huge fight. Instead, going the way she is now, you'll remember it as the turning point where your relationship was irreparably damaged. She needs to back off and allow you to have the wedding you want, to create your own special memories. She's had hers. You love her, but if she continues to push, she will get exactly the opposite of what she hoped for.
posted by Jubey at 6:14 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's YOUR wedding. It's the only one you'll ever have (one hopes). "No" is a complete sentence. If your parents have a problem with that, it's their problem, not yours. Skip the explanations, the compromises, the arguments. "No." That's it.
posted by tzikeh at 7:46 PM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 7:46 PM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
I agree that you need to up your donkey skills. I'm a pretty pro donkey (if I do say so myself.... and my parents certainly would, ha!) and my parents gave up a long time ago on pushing me to do things that I was donkeying out about. You need to teach your parents that they can't push you around (suggest, request, absolutely. demand, no. Not when you're an adult).
"No", end of discussion. Your life is not run by popular vote. They don't have to agree with your life choices.
I will also add that this is especially important because you've been resisting so long already. Anyone with pets or children knows that if you give in after endless pestering, you hugely reinforce the bad behaviour. If you give in now, you're training your parents that you'll do whatever they say, as long as they pester you long enough. You really, really don't want that attitude from them for your marriage - especially if you end up having kids!
Instead, show them that they can't actually control you, no matter how hard they try. Expect major resistance, threats etc - controlling people really hate getting pushback, especially if you've been rolling over until now. But if you consistently, confidently stand up for yourself on things that matter to you, they will most likely learn eventually that they can't control you. Even if they don't, what are they gonna do, strap you down and staple the veil on you? The worst they can do is threaten not to come - and if they're really that devoted to punishing you for not mindlessly obeying them, I'm not sure it would be such a huge loss.
posted by randomnity at 8:35 AM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
"No", end of discussion. Your life is not run by popular vote. They don't have to agree with your life choices.
I will also add that this is especially important because you've been resisting so long already. Anyone with pets or children knows that if you give in after endless pestering, you hugely reinforce the bad behaviour. If you give in now, you're training your parents that you'll do whatever they say, as long as they pester you long enough. You really, really don't want that attitude from them for your marriage - especially if you end up having kids!
Instead, show them that they can't actually control you, no matter how hard they try. Expect major resistance, threats etc - controlling people really hate getting pushback, especially if you've been rolling over until now. But if you consistently, confidently stand up for yourself on things that matter to you, they will most likely learn eventually that they can't control you. Even if they don't, what are they gonna do, strap you down and staple the veil on you? The worst they can do is threaten not to come - and if they're really that devoted to punishing you for not mindlessly obeying them, I'm not sure it would be such a huge loss.
posted by randomnity at 8:35 AM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
For the record, my parents wanted me to get married in a church, not serve alcohol, wear a veil, and some other random shit I didn't do. My in-laws were appalled that we didn't throw a bouquet, do the garter thing, or smush cake into each other's faces.
Both sets of parents thought that our wedding was one of the prettiest, most romantic, and most fun weddings they'd been too. Granted, my parents said with an annoying level of surprise in their voices but they did say that the way we did our wedding was perfect and after the fact they couldn't imagine it any way else.
Do what you need to do, they'll get over it or they won't.
Side note: On a whim, I asked my dad if he'd be willing to do the father/daughter dance thing even though he never danced in his life. He bravely took lessons, danced with me and every single bride's maid and had an absolute ball. Years afterwards he said that he had no idea that could be so fun.
posted by teleri025 at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Both sets of parents thought that our wedding was one of the prettiest, most romantic, and most fun weddings they'd been too. Granted, my parents said with an annoying level of surprise in their voices but they did say that the way we did our wedding was perfect and after the fact they couldn't imagine it any way else.
Do what you need to do, they'll get over it or they won't.
Side note: On a whim, I asked my dad if he'd be willing to do the father/daughter dance thing even though he never danced in his life. He bravely took lessons, danced with me and every single bride's maid and had an absolute ball. Years afterwards he said that he had no idea that could be so fun.
posted by teleri025 at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am just married after enduring a similar situation with my own mother. I suggest not compromising and not giving in because you may wind up feeling like I did, which was like Neville Chamberlain. I feel like this is not about the veil so giving in will not fix the problem. Also, giving the money back will not fix the problem because this is not about the money. It is about her and whatever is going on with her feelings about what this wedding represents.
First, my mom pitched a fit because I did not invite her siblings (because it was a small wedding and that would add nearly 50% to the guest list and exceed the chapel's seating). Because I love her and she was apparently having a hard time adjusting to me getting married, I gave in.
Then, she asked me to invite her friend. Who supposedly could not come, but would like to feel invited. I said sorry, the RSVP deadline is passed and we are out of space potentially and I feel weird sending an invite after the fact, no. Then my mom decided to verbally invite her friend and husband AND secure their attendance (in Mexico!) over my no. Then my mom wanted me to call her friend who I had not invited and explain the situation. No. Then she threatened to invite some other people who I had lost touch with for reasons. No.
Here is what I did. I had a little mantra. Three phrases I repeated over text and email every time she tried to raise this with me. "I love you, Mom. I'm very excited that you and your family will be at the wedding to celebrate with us [what we did to compromise]. We are full on guests [sorry, no more compromising]." If she tried to bring it up on the phone, I did a mini variation on that mantra and excused myself. I had to call her a lot less leading up to the wedding. It helped my sanity.
She did not stop, oh no. She complained about not knowing every detail of how the ceremony was going to play out, even after I gave her husband a speaking role and sent her the reception play list. It even went through the reception, where she kept asking where she would be seated and wanted to be shown her seat for approval ahead of time and asked me to move a heavy ceramic centerpiece because she could not see me for the five minutes I was seated at the table. It occurred after the wedding day because I was ill the next day and did not see her as much as she would have liked. But I focused on how to let her do her thing without it dragging me under. Do what you need to do to enjoy your day. Be loving and kind but do not surrender.
posted by *s at 11:09 AM on April 3, 2017
First, my mom pitched a fit because I did not invite her siblings (because it was a small wedding and that would add nearly 50% to the guest list and exceed the chapel's seating). Because I love her and she was apparently having a hard time adjusting to me getting married, I gave in.
Then, she asked me to invite her friend. Who supposedly could not come, but would like to feel invited. I said sorry, the RSVP deadline is passed and we are out of space potentially and I feel weird sending an invite after the fact, no. Then my mom decided to verbally invite her friend and husband AND secure their attendance (in Mexico!) over my no. Then my mom wanted me to call her friend who I had not invited and explain the situation. No. Then she threatened to invite some other people who I had lost touch with for reasons. No.
Here is what I did. I had a little mantra. Three phrases I repeated over text and email every time she tried to raise this with me. "I love you, Mom. I'm very excited that you and your family will be at the wedding to celebrate with us [what we did to compromise]. We are full on guests [sorry, no more compromising]." If she tried to bring it up on the phone, I did a mini variation on that mantra and excused myself. I had to call her a lot less leading up to the wedding. It helped my sanity.
She did not stop, oh no. She complained about not knowing every detail of how the ceremony was going to play out, even after I gave her husband a speaking role and sent her the reception play list. It even went through the reception, where she kept asking where she would be seated and wanted to be shown her seat for approval ahead of time and asked me to move a heavy ceramic centerpiece because she could not see me for the five minutes I was seated at the table. It occurred after the wedding day because I was ill the next day and did not see her as much as she would have liked. But I focused on how to let her do her thing without it dragging me under. Do what you need to do to enjoy your day. Be loving and kind but do not surrender.
posted by *s at 11:09 AM on April 3, 2017
If someone was pressuring me so much to wear an item of clothing I felt was a symbol of repression, I would be so very tempted to say I was going to wear it -- then wear the thing, pause when entering the room, and dramatically remove it and tear it to shreds as a statement. Possibly with a speech.
(disclaimer: I haven't the slightest idea what a "with a blusher" is, or if that would maker it harder to remove the veil and rend it to shreds)
the bride wearing knitted antlers on her head the whole night
Perhaps you can compromise by wearing some sort of knitted animal on your head? Perhaps an octopus. Purchase an octopus hat and insist on wearing that as your veil. Then you can compromise by not wearing a veil at all, and you'll have a fun octopus hat! Win!
posted by yohko at 3:40 PM on April 4, 2017
(disclaimer: I haven't the slightest idea what a "with a blusher" is, or if that would maker it harder to remove the veil and rend it to shreds)
the bride wearing knitted antlers on her head the whole night
Perhaps you can compromise by wearing some sort of knitted animal on your head? Perhaps an octopus. Purchase an octopus hat and insist on wearing that as your veil. Then you can compromise by not wearing a veil at all, and you'll have a fun octopus hat! Win!
posted by yohko at 3:40 PM on April 4, 2017
Hey OP! Are you married? How did it all go? I hope everything was wonderful and worked out to make you happy.
(Planning my own wedding right now and revisiting your thread has helped a lot.)
posted by knownassociate at 11:34 AM on September 22, 2017
(Planning my own wedding right now and revisiting your thread has helped a lot.)
posted by knownassociate at 11:34 AM on September 22, 2017
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As for what to say, I would stop asking their opinions about your wedding decisions and I would stop talking to them about the wedding in general. If they try and bring something up, like the veil, for the 100th time, you can say something like, "I don't feel like talking about that right now," and then change the subject. You have to be consistent though: don't enforce this new boundary periodically. Enforce it all the time, no matter how tiring that feels.
I would also tell them regularly that you're really looking forward to seeing them and having them at your wedding, so they--if they want to be reasonable--that you're not setting these new boundaries out of anger.
posted by colfax at 4:23 AM on March 30, 2017 [55 favorites]