I hate my (university) students
March 26, 2017 6:46 AM Subscribe
I am a professor. I teach an advanced course in a technical (engineering) subject at a prestigious research university. I have concluded that my students have completely unreasonable expections, and I hate them for it. What do I do?
I have been teaching this course for several years. Over the last couple of years, a few things have happened that have created a perfect storm of difficuly: (1) my research interests have changed, and my department agreed that this should be my last year teaching this course (which I have taught for several years); and (2) the subject area has become hot. In past years, I had a maximum of tens of students; this year I have nearly two hundred; (3) the underlying technical approach to the field has changed dramatically.
Because I feel an obligation to teach the students what is currently happening in the field, I have completely revamped the course this year so that it is current with what is happening; the students are getting an up-to-the-minute take on this subject. Personally, this makes teaching somewhat draining, since in many ways, this is both the first and last time I am teaching it. Sometimes I am busy, and the lectures are flat. I admit this is my fault. C'est la vie.
The enrollment in this course increased by nearly 500%, because the topic became hot overnight. My university does not cap enrollments and thinks I should be just fine with the extra workload. I told the students in the first lecture that the material would be difficult, and that the material was new because the field was changing rapidly. I gave them a substantial amount of additional material, a complete syllabus, and the first homework assignment so they would know what they were in for. I told them that we were understaffed, and that we'd do our best to answer course questions in piazza (a widely used course QA platform), but there were no guarantees, and that they'd better be prepared to figure things out on their own. I told them this *before* the drop deadline, so they could make an informed choice. None of them dropped.
I hired some *amazing* PhD students as teaching assistants to help me redesign the assignments for the course. They spent many unpaid spent nights and weekends creating an up-to-the-minute assignment for the students, which was incredibly detailed. The students asked many questions in piazza, and the TAs answered them on the spot. According to piazza (which helpfullly collects statistics on this), students were getting answers to their questions in well under an hour. A senior member of my department described this level of support as "exemplary".
However. According to the students, answering questions in under an hour, 24-7, is *not* exemplary. One of my TAs (against my better judgement) posted a survey following one of the assignments, and many of the students in the course rated the level of the support as "not timely".
My TAs and I are *killing* ourselves for this course, and yet the students have dismissed us out of hand as being unhelpful.
To be perfectly frank: I am a few years into this job, and this attitude on the part of my students has completely killed my interest in teaching. I am a senior hire (I spent years teaching elsewhere when I didn't have to, because I enjoyed it), I am killing myself to make this course work, and more importantly, my TAs (who are amazing) are also killing themselves. For the students to tell me that they aren't receiving timely support--- the problem with this isn't that it's insulting, it's that it is literally *empirically false*, and I am having any trouble taking student concerns seriously because of this. Quite frankly: this has made me hate this group of students. At this moment, I hate every single student in this course.
I am not a saint. I don't obtain satisfaction from the pure joy of marking student assessments. If, after sinking this much energy into teaching, my students think that it is inadequate, then well... fuck them. I am not sure I want to continue. What should I do?
I have been teaching this course for several years. Over the last couple of years, a few things have happened that have created a perfect storm of difficuly: (1) my research interests have changed, and my department agreed that this should be my last year teaching this course (which I have taught for several years); and (2) the subject area has become hot. In past years, I had a maximum of tens of students; this year I have nearly two hundred; (3) the underlying technical approach to the field has changed dramatically.
Because I feel an obligation to teach the students what is currently happening in the field, I have completely revamped the course this year so that it is current with what is happening; the students are getting an up-to-the-minute take on this subject. Personally, this makes teaching somewhat draining, since in many ways, this is both the first and last time I am teaching it. Sometimes I am busy, and the lectures are flat. I admit this is my fault. C'est la vie.
The enrollment in this course increased by nearly 500%, because the topic became hot overnight. My university does not cap enrollments and thinks I should be just fine with the extra workload. I told the students in the first lecture that the material would be difficult, and that the material was new because the field was changing rapidly. I gave them a substantial amount of additional material, a complete syllabus, and the first homework assignment so they would know what they were in for. I told them that we were understaffed, and that we'd do our best to answer course questions in piazza (a widely used course QA platform), but there were no guarantees, and that they'd better be prepared to figure things out on their own. I told them this *before* the drop deadline, so they could make an informed choice. None of them dropped.
I hired some *amazing* PhD students as teaching assistants to help me redesign the assignments for the course. They spent many unpaid spent nights and weekends creating an up-to-the-minute assignment for the students, which was incredibly detailed. The students asked many questions in piazza, and the TAs answered them on the spot. According to piazza (which helpfullly collects statistics on this), students were getting answers to their questions in well under an hour. A senior member of my department described this level of support as "exemplary".
However. According to the students, answering questions in under an hour, 24-7, is *not* exemplary. One of my TAs (against my better judgement) posted a survey following one of the assignments, and many of the students in the course rated the level of the support as "not timely".
My TAs and I are *killing* ourselves for this course, and yet the students have dismissed us out of hand as being unhelpful.
To be perfectly frank: I am a few years into this job, and this attitude on the part of my students has completely killed my interest in teaching. I am a senior hire (I spent years teaching elsewhere when I didn't have to, because I enjoyed it), I am killing myself to make this course work, and more importantly, my TAs (who are amazing) are also killing themselves. For the students to tell me that they aren't receiving timely support--- the problem with this isn't that it's insulting, it's that it is literally *empirically false*, and I am having any trouble taking student concerns seriously because of this. Quite frankly: this has made me hate this group of students. At this moment, I hate every single student in this course.
I am not a saint. I don't obtain satisfaction from the pure joy of marking student assessments. If, after sinking this much energy into teaching, my students think that it is inadequate, then well... fuck them. I am not sure I want to continue. What should I do?
At the end of this course, will the results of the survey or any other planned assessments regarding timeliness have any impact on you or your TAs? (i.e. the results are used and the University requires you to develop some sort of corrective action plan).
If not, I'm not sure I would put so much weight on the results of the survey to say fuck this class of entire students. If I was even going to bother to address it (which I'm not sure I would), I'd take some time in a lecture to ask what they think is a reasonable expectation and level of support, and build out clear guidelines from there.
Sometimes a lack of boundaries can also lead to runaway expections. I think a more viable path is rather than killing yourself providing 24/7 support, you and your TAs are clear about when your office hours are, both in person and virtually through the board - perhaps even taking shifts such to improve response time, and make it clear to your students that these are the boundaries of the support and you will strive to be timely within those time shifts. Post outside of those hours, we'll try to get you answer, but no guarantees.
posted by Karaage at 7:02 AM on March 26, 2017 [40 favorites]
If not, I'm not sure I would put so much weight on the results of the survey to say fuck this class of entire students. If I was even going to bother to address it (which I'm not sure I would), I'd take some time in a lecture to ask what they think is a reasonable expectation and level of support, and build out clear guidelines from there.
Sometimes a lack of boundaries can also lead to runaway expections. I think a more viable path is rather than killing yourself providing 24/7 support, you and your TAs are clear about when your office hours are, both in person and virtually through the board - perhaps even taking shifts such to improve response time, and make it clear to your students that these are the boundaries of the support and you will strive to be timely within those time shifts. Post outside of those hours, we'll try to get you answer, but no guarantees.
posted by Karaage at 7:02 AM on March 26, 2017 [40 favorites]
If, after sinking this much energy into teaching, my students think that it is inadequate,
Your students have no idea how much energy you put into a course or how that compares to the average professor, or how difficult it is to create a new course, or how much TAs are paid. They can't, don't, and shouldn't try to take into consideration things they can't see and don't know about. In a huge class like this, they also aren't able to have any personal connection with or empathy for you the way students will in a reasonably sized class where they actually talk to you. (When I got a few not-so-great evaluations, I remember there'd usually be a token gesture towards saying at least I was nice and clearly devoted to the material, something awful and you-tried like that. But those students knew me to talk to, and yours don't, so they can't make allowances.)
Students should have a reasonable expectation that they can contact their TA, if not the professor directly, and receive a response by the end of the next scheduled office hours. That should be clearly indicated in the syllabus. If they are actually universally getting that or better, as I think you're saying, it's the TAs who are being slighted in the evaluations and not you; the TAs who are doing the round-the-clock question answering.
It's also, if this is the major complaint found by the survey, not much of a slight. The occasional lightning-fast response time creates an expectation that this is the standard and will continue forever. Students react this way but so does everyone else. Everybody except the students is doing way more than they have to and then getting upset because nobody appreciates it. Don't let your TAs put in unpaid hours! This is an excellent lesson for them in how the beneficiaries of their work won't thank them, just ask for more, and how they will be encouraged to redirect their resentment away from the administration and their senior professors and towards the students below them who control nothing, all the while continuing to work for free and feeling worse and worse about it.
(also - don't know how the survey was written, but open-ended questions about what could be improved will get answers: don't ask them. A survey about timeliness should ask whether the standards laid out in the syllabus were met: "did you ever have to wait for a response for more than two days?" (or whatever), not "did we answer quickly enough to suit you?" survey design is an art.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on March 26, 2017 [52 favorites]
Your students have no idea how much energy you put into a course or how that compares to the average professor, or how difficult it is to create a new course, or how much TAs are paid. They can't, don't, and shouldn't try to take into consideration things they can't see and don't know about. In a huge class like this, they also aren't able to have any personal connection with or empathy for you the way students will in a reasonably sized class where they actually talk to you. (When I got a few not-so-great evaluations, I remember there'd usually be a token gesture towards saying at least I was nice and clearly devoted to the material, something awful and you-tried like that. But those students knew me to talk to, and yours don't, so they can't make allowances.)
Students should have a reasonable expectation that they can contact their TA, if not the professor directly, and receive a response by the end of the next scheduled office hours. That should be clearly indicated in the syllabus. If they are actually universally getting that or better, as I think you're saying, it's the TAs who are being slighted in the evaluations and not you; the TAs who are doing the round-the-clock question answering.
It's also, if this is the major complaint found by the survey, not much of a slight. The occasional lightning-fast response time creates an expectation that this is the standard and will continue forever. Students react this way but so does everyone else. Everybody except the students is doing way more than they have to and then getting upset because nobody appreciates it. Don't let your TAs put in unpaid hours! This is an excellent lesson for them in how the beneficiaries of their work won't thank them, just ask for more, and how they will be encouraged to redirect their resentment away from the administration and their senior professors and towards the students below them who control nothing, all the while continuing to work for free and feeling worse and worse about it.
(also - don't know how the survey was written, but open-ended questions about what could be improved will get answers: don't ask them. A survey about timeliness should ask whether the standards laid out in the syllabus were met: "did you ever have to wait for a response for more than two days?" (or whatever), not "did we answer quickly enough to suit you?" survey design is an art.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on March 26, 2017 [52 favorites]
I have been in a similar situation where part way through the class my students hated me and I them. First, you will move past this experience. Second, most of teaching is managing expectations. It sounds like you have tried to do this, but I suggest reinforcing your expectations. "We will respond to Piazza questions within 24 hours." And then if you wanted to survey the students there is no "timely" option. "Did the TAs respond with in 24 hours?" Problems arise when there is ambiguity.
posted by turtlefu at 7:35 AM on March 26, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by turtlefu at 7:35 AM on March 26, 2017 [12 favorites]
This sounds awful for you. I'm not a teacher, but I've been in a similar situation, where my department grew more than five-fold in 2 years and staff could not keep up with customer support, especially evenings and weekends. (We had a rotating shift system, but when you go from 1:100 coverage to 1:600 coverage, that's not sustainable.) Response delays of > 30-45 minutes (for non emergent situations) often led to nastygrams to management, and there was increasing resentment of staff who felt they were killing themselves and getting no recognition/gratitude from the customers in return. I see a lot of that same resentment in your question.
What worked for us was to compile data on response time, burden of time to answer the question, and type of question (to show that they were mostly not emergent). It sounds like your course software is doing some of that for you already. We took that information to management, and after some back and forth, came up with a pretty reasonable solution: divide evening/weekend calls among multiple staff, and standardize templates for the customers regarding night/weekend coverage, what was/wasn't appropriate, and how long to wait for a response. It wasn't perfect but it helped tremendously.
If this is your last year teaching the course, it may not be as useful for you right now, but maybe helpful for whoever takes over in future (I'm assuming that if this field is so hot, the course will be taught next year by someone else).
One other stray thought, which may or may not work from a teacherly perspective: If this field is changing so rapidly, would it work to shift some of the workload of "up to the minute" information to the students? Have them seek out and lead a section on some subtopic?
posted by basalganglia at 7:53 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
What worked for us was to compile data on response time, burden of time to answer the question, and type of question (to show that they were mostly not emergent). It sounds like your course software is doing some of that for you already. We took that information to management, and after some back and forth, came up with a pretty reasonable solution: divide evening/weekend calls among multiple staff, and standardize templates for the customers regarding night/weekend coverage, what was/wasn't appropriate, and how long to wait for a response. It wasn't perfect but it helped tremendously.
If this is your last year teaching the course, it may not be as useful for you right now, but maybe helpful for whoever takes over in future (I'm assuming that if this field is so hot, the course will be taught next year by someone else).
One other stray thought, which may or may not work from a teacherly perspective: If this field is changing so rapidly, would it work to shift some of the workload of "up to the minute" information to the students? Have them seek out and lead a section on some subtopic?
posted by basalganglia at 7:53 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing to keep in mind - you have hundreds of students; are you getting hundreds of "non-timely" responses? Because it's sort of the nature of student evaluations that they will be self-contradictory; that different students will have wildly different impressions of the exact same course. Don't let a few sourpusses dominate your thinking.
Something that helps me in situations like this - and I also teach at the college level, and get student feedback that is clearly wrongheaded - is to think about goals. My goal is for my students to learn the material and master new techniques, generally speaking. My goal is not to get good feedback, and so if I don't get good feedback, but student assessments are still coming out positive, then I can feel good about the course.
Have you had a discussion with your administration (dept head, dean) about their expectations?
posted by dbx at 8:03 AM on March 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Something that helps me in situations like this - and I also teach at the college level, and get student feedback that is clearly wrongheaded - is to think about goals. My goal is for my students to learn the material and master new techniques, generally speaking. My goal is not to get good feedback, and so if I don't get good feedback, but student assessments are still coming out positive, then I can feel good about the course.
Have you had a discussion with your administration (dept head, dean) about their expectations?
posted by dbx at 8:03 AM on March 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Email and texting have given the younger generation an unrealistic notion about what they can expecting timely support. In 1990, they would have had to walk across campus to follow me you or one of your TAs during office hours. I would be blunt with them, and point out that figuring out the hard answers is part of the course.
Just wait until they are grown up and call a plumber...
posted by SemiSalt at 8:04 AM on March 26, 2017 [15 favorites]
Just wait until they are grown up and call a plumber...
posted by SemiSalt at 8:04 AM on March 26, 2017 [15 favorites]
That's unreasonable. And students will often have criticisms. Set boundaries at the beginning, eg: "We will answer all questions 48 hours before the deadline." But, I might add that perhaps the redesign was confusing? Do TAs at your uni often write assignments?
I would ask around to other faculty. "Is it just me, or how are you organizing your classes?" It can sort of be a closed system where you're feeling guilty about progress, university, teaching, saving face. Just ask to see what others are experiencing; if there's an uptick, etc. I don't think you need to worry. I would frankly get the dean to start pooling everything together to set boundaries for what nervous faculty can expect from worst fears of aggressive helicoptered students riding an exciting new subdiscipline wave.
It sounds like the redesign coupled with the sort of new environment plus the influx (and it may be students interested in something new & trendy who might be unfamiliar) is stressing you out. And honestly, I think your up-to-date TAs were overworked. They shouldn't be responsible for shopping your materials, as you are the one responsible to the dean. :)
posted by semaphore at 8:08 AM on March 26, 2017
I would ask around to other faculty. "Is it just me, or how are you organizing your classes?" It can sort of be a closed system where you're feeling guilty about progress, university, teaching, saving face. Just ask to see what others are experiencing; if there's an uptick, etc. I don't think you need to worry. I would frankly get the dean to start pooling everything together to set boundaries for what nervous faculty can expect from worst fears of aggressive helicoptered students riding an exciting new subdiscipline wave.
It sounds like the redesign coupled with the sort of new environment plus the influx (and it may be students interested in something new & trendy who might be unfamiliar) is stressing you out. And honestly, I think your up-to-date TAs were overworked. They shouldn't be responsible for shopping your materials, as you are the one responsible to the dean. :)
posted by semaphore at 8:08 AM on March 26, 2017
This is why pitchers of beer were invented. Invite your TAs out, beer's on you, and have a mutual gripe session. You'll all feel better and be able to get through the end of this term.
Plus, take the lessons learned as are being suggested here for the future.
posted by stevis23 at 8:13 AM on March 26, 2017 [9 favorites]
Plus, take the lessons learned as are being suggested here for the future.
posted by stevis23 at 8:13 AM on March 26, 2017 [9 favorites]
This sounds incredibly frustrating, and I don't blame you for being mad. It seems to me, however, that your hatred is misplaced. This situation, after all, is not being created by your students. You identify the cause of the problem very clearly in your question:
The enrollment in this course increased by nearly 500%, because the topic became hot overnight. My university does not cap enrollments and thinks I should be just fine with the extra workload.
You should stop hating your students and start hating the administration who put you in this situation. Fortunately, hating your boss is a great American tradition, and you'll be in good company.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:22 AM on March 26, 2017 [48 favorites]
The enrollment in this course increased by nearly 500%, because the topic became hot overnight. My university does not cap enrollments and thinks I should be just fine with the extra workload.
You should stop hating your students and start hating the administration who put you in this situation. Fortunately, hating your boss is a great American tradition, and you'll be in good company.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:22 AM on March 26, 2017 [48 favorites]
I told them that we were understaffed, and that we'd do our best to answer course questions in piazza (a widely used course QA platform), but there were no guarantees, and that they'd better be prepared to figure things out on their own.
Here's the thing - you, the expert, told them something and they believed it. Now getting them to disbelieve it may just not happen. Also note that your announcement above may not only have affected perception, but actual reality - if there are students who aren't even bothering to ask questions in piazza because you've told them there are no guarantees and they better be prepared to figure things out on their own, so they are just defaulting to that, of course they'll answer a survey with "not timely" as they've nothing else to go off of except your announcement that it was as such.
And sure, once the atmosphere of a class gets away from you, it sucks. But you just have to ride it out because it's atypical or if this has permanently changed how you view teaching and you want to look at other job opportunities or at least other institutions, well, that's up to you. To be professional you still need to finish this semester's courses, though - and they're almost over, yay!
I will say it's crazypants that your university doesn't have enrollment caps. Even if they don't have a bright line number in your department, can you as the professor and/or your department chair really not enforce one with the registrar's office anyway? If not, I am side-eyeing your institution hard though if the TAs were extra (weren't there when enrollment was normal) that is a decent compromise.
posted by vegartanipla at 8:22 AM on March 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here's the thing - you, the expert, told them something and they believed it. Now getting them to disbelieve it may just not happen. Also note that your announcement above may not only have affected perception, but actual reality - if there are students who aren't even bothering to ask questions in piazza because you've told them there are no guarantees and they better be prepared to figure things out on their own, so they are just defaulting to that, of course they'll answer a survey with "not timely" as they've nothing else to go off of except your announcement that it was as such.
And sure, once the atmosphere of a class gets away from you, it sucks. But you just have to ride it out because it's atypical or if this has permanently changed how you view teaching and you want to look at other job opportunities or at least other institutions, well, that's up to you. To be professional you still need to finish this semester's courses, though - and they're almost over, yay!
I will say it's crazypants that your university doesn't have enrollment caps. Even if they don't have a bright line number in your department, can you as the professor and/or your department chair really not enforce one with the registrar's office anyway? If not, I am side-eyeing your institution hard though if the TAs were extra (weren't there when enrollment was normal) that is a decent compromise.
posted by vegartanipla at 8:22 AM on March 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
You have a couple of different problems here that you're conflating.
1. You're understaffed for the crazy volume of students. This is your university's fault. I never heard of a course with unlimited enrollment: that is a recipe for overworked teachers. Too late to change it for this semester, but by all means vent with your grad students and assure each other that you're doing the best you can in these trenches.
2. Your TA made a (common, totally understandable) mistake in the survey design. Like someone said above, you don't ask open-ended questions when you're trying to get actionable data. All you will get is bitching from a self-selecting group of Folks Who Like To Bitch. What does "timely" mean? It means "so fast that I don't have to wait." That is not a standard anyone is ever going to meet. You set yourself up for dissatisfied responses here; and you didn't even need to ask this question, since your software (awesomely) already gave you the objective data on how long it takes these folks to get their answers.
So you've accidentally set yourself up to get people whining at you, at the same time as you already have an uphill battle to even handle this inappropriate enrollment load. Take a step back, aim your anger about your overwork at your administration, and remember that people always bitch on open ended survey questions. It stings, when you'd like your hard work to be acknowledged, but they don't know how overworked you are, and they're just doing what people do on open ended surveys. Also remember this is just one of many classes your students are taking over the course of their degree -- it doesn't have nearly the life-importance for them as it does for you. Continue doing a great job, and don't let predictable survey problems get you down.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:44 AM on March 26, 2017 [9 favorites]
1. You're understaffed for the crazy volume of students. This is your university's fault. I never heard of a course with unlimited enrollment: that is a recipe for overworked teachers. Too late to change it for this semester, but by all means vent with your grad students and assure each other that you're doing the best you can in these trenches.
2. Your TA made a (common, totally understandable) mistake in the survey design. Like someone said above, you don't ask open-ended questions when you're trying to get actionable data. All you will get is bitching from a self-selecting group of Folks Who Like To Bitch. What does "timely" mean? It means "so fast that I don't have to wait." That is not a standard anyone is ever going to meet. You set yourself up for dissatisfied responses here; and you didn't even need to ask this question, since your software (awesomely) already gave you the objective data on how long it takes these folks to get their answers.
So you've accidentally set yourself up to get people whining at you, at the same time as you already have an uphill battle to even handle this inappropriate enrollment load. Take a step back, aim your anger about your overwork at your administration, and remember that people always bitch on open ended survey questions. It stings, when you'd like your hard work to be acknowledged, but they don't know how overworked you are, and they're just doing what people do on open ended surveys. Also remember this is just one of many classes your students are taking over the course of their degree -- it doesn't have nearly the life-importance for them as it does for you. Continue doing a great job, and don't let predictable survey problems get you down.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:44 AM on March 26, 2017 [9 favorites]
I've been in similar teaching situations and can totally sympathize with your frustration. My words of wisdom (ha!):
- Know that the scores on teaching evaluations have been shown (by research!) to correlate more strongly with how students think they're doing in the course (and hence their crankiness level) than with the quality of the teaching. You and your TAs are demonstrably providing timely feedback, so just ignore that response and roll your eyes instead.
- Find some sympathetic fellow faculty members to vent at. This helps tremendously. Indeed, you have already done this by posting this question!
- Remember that students are really really young and often clueless about proper social behaviour. Sometimes students don't realize that professors and TAs are people. And don't get me started on students' sense of entitlement!
- While many of the students in your class may be terrible entitled losers, there are certainly some who are awesome brilliant people who are absolutely loving your class. Teach for them.
- Remember that term will be over soon enough. After a couple months of summer freedom and wonderful wonderful research, you'll have recovered your joie de vivre and will feel much better.
posted by heatherlogan at 8:54 AM on March 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
- Know that the scores on teaching evaluations have been shown (by research!) to correlate more strongly with how students think they're doing in the course (and hence their crankiness level) than with the quality of the teaching. You and your TAs are demonstrably providing timely feedback, so just ignore that response and roll your eyes instead.
- Find some sympathetic fellow faculty members to vent at. This helps tremendously. Indeed, you have already done this by posting this question!
- Remember that students are really really young and often clueless about proper social behaviour. Sometimes students don't realize that professors and TAs are people. And don't get me started on students' sense of entitlement!
- While many of the students in your class may be terrible entitled losers, there are certainly some who are awesome brilliant people who are absolutely loving your class. Teach for them.
- Remember that term will be over soon enough. After a couple months of summer freedom and wonderful wonderful research, you'll have recovered your joie de vivre and will feel much better.
posted by heatherlogan at 8:54 AM on March 26, 2017 [7 favorites]
Tell them how much work and time you and your TAs are putting in. Otherwise they will not know.
posted by amtho at 9:28 AM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 9:28 AM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
With all the respect in the world for all the hard work you're doing, this almost feels like a non-issue for me. You've gone above and beyond, your assistants have gone above and beyond, and you've made it clear that students need to be pretty tough and self-sufficient to be successful. I'd recommend throwing away these survey results, as they're not actually measuring something that is important to the class. You told the kids point blank that there's no guarantee for automatic assistance, and they're not hearing you - that's their own fault.
If you really want feedback, don't focus on timeliness. What about questions like this? (Using a Likert scale)
-I understand the lectures and know where to get support when I'm confused.
-I am taking time outside of class to study with other students.
-I am interested in finding a study group to support my progress.
-I am interested in a forum where students in the class can answer each other's questions/share relevant resources.
This would get at the real issue - the students need to be self-sufficient, and not unfairly demanding.
posted by violetish at 10:36 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you really want feedback, don't focus on timeliness. What about questions like this? (Using a Likert scale)
-I understand the lectures and know where to get support when I'm confused.
-I am taking time outside of class to study with other students.
-I am interested in finding a study group to support my progress.
-I am interested in a forum where students in the class can answer each other's questions/share relevant resources.
This would get at the real issue - the students need to be self-sufficient, and not unfairly demanding.
posted by violetish at 10:36 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I told them that we were understaffed, and that we'd do our best to answer course questions in piazza (a widely used course QA platform), but there were no guarantees, and that they'd better be prepared to figure things out on their own.
Setting the expectation that you can't do your job, which is teaching the students material, is not a great way to start off your course. If I heard this as a student, I'd be appalled. And I'm not a millennial. I was TFing just when tech meant that students started thinking that they could email you for instant responses any time of day or night and within any proximity to a deadline and had to start putting in boundaries. That you are responding within an hour 24/7 is actually pretty amazing--but, boy, it's hard to recover from telling the students up front that they should expect to have to figure things out on their own when they're paying you to teach them.
"Underpromise, overdeliver" is often a good strategy, but you can't go too far under. I'd write off those responses as an artifact of your trying to figure out how to teach an understaffed course and screwing up a little.
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on March 26, 2017 [10 favorites]
Setting the expectation that you can't do your job, which is teaching the students material, is not a great way to start off your course. If I heard this as a student, I'd be appalled. And I'm not a millennial. I was TFing just when tech meant that students started thinking that they could email you for instant responses any time of day or night and within any proximity to a deadline and had to start putting in boundaries. That you are responding within an hour 24/7 is actually pretty amazing--but, boy, it's hard to recover from telling the students up front that they should expect to have to figure things out on their own when they're paying you to teach them.
"Underpromise, overdeliver" is often a good strategy, but you can't go too far under. I'd write off those responses as an artifact of your trying to figure out how to teach an understaffed course and screwing up a little.
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on March 26, 2017 [10 favorites]
2nding 'Tell Them'...and I wouldn't even bother being nice about it...hi before you leave today...here are some of the survey responses you filled out (read most petulant whiny ones)...here's what my grad students and I are doing to meet your needs...just fyi, act this ungrateful and demanding out in the real world...and you will.get.fired. k thx bye.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:44 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sexyrobot at 10:44 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Teaching is a relationship and relationships are rarely smooth sailing. On your side, it's a relationship of love and you're hurt they don't love you back. You assumed they would drop the course otherwise but they see the relationship differently. Some see themselves as hiving to be in the hot new field, for example. So, you might be surprised that some of them are just not that into you. With a large uncapped enrollment, it just has to be that way no matter what you did.
posted by Obscure Reference at 10:44 AM on March 26, 2017
posted by Obscure Reference at 10:44 AM on March 26, 2017
One other thing: are you sure you're not generalizing one or two students who are being rude (out of callow obliviousness or whatever reasons)? Maybe there are a lot of students who do get it, but they're not clogging your message queue with notes that say that they get it.
posted by amtho at 11:16 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 11:16 AM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it possible that there's some technical problem with your course management software that keeps the students from seeing staff responses in real time?
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:20 PM on March 26, 2017
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:20 PM on March 26, 2017
It would also be reasonable for them to answer that way if they got an immediate response that did not actually answer the important part of a question, or that answered it by telling them to refer to the course materials they already failed to understand.
that could be true and they could still be spoiled or incompetent little bastards, of course. but there are all kinds of ways for them to have legitimate complaints that you might not be able to assess unless you're monitoring the content of all the TA responses (like: an overworked TA who knows response times are being monitored might answer just to acknowledge a complicated question and tell them to expect a detailed answer later, and then forget to ever send one.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:56 PM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
that could be true and they could still be spoiled or incompetent little bastards, of course. but there are all kinds of ways for them to have legitimate complaints that you might not be able to assess unless you're monitoring the content of all the TA responses (like: an overworked TA who knows response times are being monitored might answer just to acknowledge a complicated question and tell them to expect a detailed answer later, and then forget to ever send one.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:56 PM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Everyone in universities expects instant response within 5 minutes these days. It's not just this class and there probably isn't anything you can do to mitigate that expectation.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:59 PM on March 26, 2017
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:59 PM on March 26, 2017
Honestly it sounds like this course was designed to fail, and not through any fault of your own. It doesn't sound like the policy is within your power to change, but the idea of unlimited/uncapped enrollment is just ridiculous and the fact that it meant apparently students were told they could never meet with someone in person to discuss difficulties or ask questions seems like it's failing students on a basic level. If it's the university I think it is based on the no-caps-on-enrollment and using Piazza, it's a very prestigious one where students are paying a LOT of money to attend and really should have an expectation of a high level of educational support (and yeah, the folks I know who are professors there are pretty damn miserable too). Again, that's NOT your fault, but I completely understand why students are frustrated -- not because you or the TAs have done something wrong, but because they are paying quite a lot of money to receive a very substandard experience due to understaffing. Again, not your fault, but I would be livid as a student if the professor said we were SOL with getting help on complicated material and there would apparently be zero in-person office hours! The problem here is not that your students have unreasonable expectations -- at least at every university where I have ever been a student or a TA or a professor, it has been completely typical and expected that the student could at least sit down with a TA, if not a professor, to ask questions about the material. The problem here is that your university has set things up so that perfectly reasonable expectations cannot be met. So, direct your anger toward where it ought to be!
If I were you in this situation, I would first assess what my long term plan is -- is this a weird anomaly? Maybe, since you said you won't be teaching this class again? If so, just tough out the next few weeks and then join faculty Senate to try to change this insane policy. Or, if you decide being at this university is never going to make you happy despite the prestige, then work your network to see where senior hires are happening and get the hell out ASAP.
In either case, in order to make it through the rest of the semester, I would have an honest conversation with the students where you say, "Look, this situation is really not ideal for me or the TAs either. I get why people are frustrated, unfortunately the policy that led to dramatic overenrollment this semester was not in my hands, but now we're all in this together. What can we do to make the rest of the semester work better for everyone and make sure you take away something positive from this class, given the limited resources we're dealing with." You could ask students to spend some time in small groups brainstorming some solutions, but off the top of my head, some possible options could be -- being a resource to help students find study group members, WAY scaling back what's required for the rest of the time left in the semester (i.e. give optional assignments for those who want to go the extra mile, but cut your losses on the majority of students doing a ton more difficult work), going to your chair to ask for extra money to offer in-person tutorial sessions (even groups of 20-25 each could work better for students asking questions with a TA -- may not work w your current # of TAs, but possibly could if you could get some extra hands on deck), switching the last few weeks to a group project assignment where students do their own research or something else that changes the format of the class, etc.
Good luck!
(p.s. I disagree that students everywhere expect instant responses. I talk about my communications/email policy on the first day of class, which is that I respond within 24 hours M-F, and while there's the occasional whiny student, I rarely get complaints -- most students adjust. But, they know they can reliably find me in my office when I say I'll be there, which I think is the piece that's missing here. I think the issue is that students were told they could ONLY get responses on an online platform and have no personal connection. Again, this is NOT your fault, but I can understand their frustration for sure.)
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:58 PM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
If I were you in this situation, I would first assess what my long term plan is -- is this a weird anomaly? Maybe, since you said you won't be teaching this class again? If so, just tough out the next few weeks and then join faculty Senate to try to change this insane policy. Or, if you decide being at this university is never going to make you happy despite the prestige, then work your network to see where senior hires are happening and get the hell out ASAP.
In either case, in order to make it through the rest of the semester, I would have an honest conversation with the students where you say, "Look, this situation is really not ideal for me or the TAs either. I get why people are frustrated, unfortunately the policy that led to dramatic overenrollment this semester was not in my hands, but now we're all in this together. What can we do to make the rest of the semester work better for everyone and make sure you take away something positive from this class, given the limited resources we're dealing with." You could ask students to spend some time in small groups brainstorming some solutions, but off the top of my head, some possible options could be -- being a resource to help students find study group members, WAY scaling back what's required for the rest of the time left in the semester (i.e. give optional assignments for those who want to go the extra mile, but cut your losses on the majority of students doing a ton more difficult work), going to your chair to ask for extra money to offer in-person tutorial sessions (even groups of 20-25 each could work better for students asking questions with a TA -- may not work w your current # of TAs, but possibly could if you could get some extra hands on deck), switching the last few weeks to a group project assignment where students do their own research or something else that changes the format of the class, etc.
Good luck!
(p.s. I disagree that students everywhere expect instant responses. I talk about my communications/email policy on the first day of class, which is that I respond within 24 hours M-F, and while there's the occasional whiny student, I rarely get complaints -- most students adjust. But, they know they can reliably find me in my office when I say I'll be there, which I think is the piece that's missing here. I think the issue is that students were told they could ONLY get responses on an online platform and have no personal connection. Again, this is NOT your fault, but I can understand their frustration for sure.)
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:58 PM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
You may be in the same field as me (overnight popularity of a hitherto unknown field) or a similar one.
Many students are taking the course out of some misplaced hope that it will lead to be better job opportunities rather than interest or aptitude. Students in suddenly popular fields are awful. I miss the days when only the geeks took these courses. These students probably envisioned something glamorous when reading about this field in the popular press, and are now turned off my the technicalities of it. It doesn't help that many of them probably feel lost in the large class too.
I'm in the same situation now, though I'm teaching at a liberal arts college with no TAs or graders, and therefore, my students are pissed off that I'm behind on the grading, which I can't help because I'm prepping materials every day. If I gave a survey, they'd probably say I'm not responsive either, even though I answer all questions on Piazza within a few hours.
Chill out. Do the best you can, and be relieved it's your last time teaching this.
posted by redlines at 4:01 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Many students are taking the course out of some misplaced hope that it will lead to be better job opportunities rather than interest or aptitude. Students in suddenly popular fields are awful. I miss the days when only the geeks took these courses. These students probably envisioned something glamorous when reading about this field in the popular press, and are now turned off my the technicalities of it. It doesn't help that many of them probably feel lost in the large class too.
I'm in the same situation now, though I'm teaching at a liberal arts college with no TAs or graders, and therefore, my students are pissed off that I'm behind on the grading, which I can't help because I'm prepping materials every day. If I gave a survey, they'd probably say I'm not responsive either, even though I answer all questions on Piazza within a few hours.
Chill out. Do the best you can, and be relieved it's your last time teaching this.
posted by redlines at 4:01 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
2nding 'Tell Them'...and I wouldn't even bother being nice about it...hi before you leave today...here are some of the survey responses you filled out (read most petulant whiny ones)...here's what my grad students and I are doing to meet your needs...just fyi, act this ungrateful and demanding out in the real world...and you will.get.fired. k thx bye.
This kind of antagonistic response is exactly the right way to prompt a downward spiral of interactions starting with "actually I'm paying you and in the real world you don't treat customers like this, now where's the Dean?".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:11 PM on March 26, 2017 [15 favorites]
This kind of antagonistic response is exactly the right way to prompt a downward spiral of interactions starting with "actually I'm paying you and in the real world you don't treat customers like this, now where's the Dean?".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:11 PM on March 26, 2017 [15 favorites]
Frankly, if I were a student in this situation I'd be furious. It's clearly not your fault, but students these days are constantly being told their needs are unimportant by administration while paying an insane amount of money out the ass for the privilege. So I don't know, probably bad for your career to let the students know that you're all on the same side, which happens to be against the idiot administration? But that's what's really going on here.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:59 PM on March 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 6:59 PM on March 26, 2017 [5 favorites]
Is it possible the students are struggling more than usual with the material, and their response of help "not being timely" is less about the email response time and more generally about not feeling supported or taught in ways that help them master the material? I know that I can feel that instructors/professors are inaccessible when it's really more that I'm just not understanding the material.
posted by lazuli at 7:28 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lazuli at 7:28 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
There are no maps for these territories.
If it is a hot, changing topic, the students should expect it to be in flux. You might try to impart to them that this is de-rigueur in engineering, and whatever they learn is useless in five years anyways. Learning is what they need to master.
posted by nickggully at 7:59 PM on March 26, 2017
If it is a hot, changing topic, the students should expect it to be in flux. You might try to impart to them that this is de-rigueur in engineering, and whatever they learn is useless in five years anyways. Learning is what they need to master.
posted by nickggully at 7:59 PM on March 26, 2017
You know that the response is timely, especially given the constraints. Students can think what they like, and if it causes a problem downstream (say evaluations), you have data to show the response time was adequate.
posted by dhruva at 10:09 PM on March 26, 2017
posted by dhruva at 10:09 PM on March 26, 2017
Everything in your Ask has been covered except for one very important piece: Hate. You tell us straight up that you hate your students. As has been pointed out, it's not your students fault that there's no cap and that you've been tossed into 12 foot deep roiling water with weights tied to your feet. Someone upthread said that the hatred is misplaced, that it ought be aimed at whoever tossed you off the cliff.
There's got to be a better way though than to hate anybody. I often think of Jack London's stories of gold miners in Alaska, and how they would store gold in leather sacks. A perfect solution. Leather is perfectly suited to holding gold. But if you pour acid into that same leather sack it will eat right through it. Leather isn't at all suited to holding acid.
People are just not suited to hold hatred inside us. It really is like the acid in the leather sack, it eats us alive.
ROCK ==> YOU <== HARD PLACE
I hope that you can find a way to get that hate out of yourself, it'll make for much nicer days.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:48 PM on March 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's got to be a better way though than to hate anybody. I often think of Jack London's stories of gold miners in Alaska, and how they would store gold in leather sacks. A perfect solution. Leather is perfectly suited to holding gold. But if you pour acid into that same leather sack it will eat right through it. Leather isn't at all suited to holding acid.
People are just not suited to hold hatred inside us. It really is like the acid in the leather sack, it eats us alive.
ROCK ==> YOU <== HARD PLACE
I hope that you can find a way to get that hate out of yourself, it'll make for much nicer days.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:48 PM on March 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Your students have no fucking clue how absurd a situation it is, that they (and you) have been placed into. There is no way they could have any such clue. All the set-up and expectation-setting you did.... is likely to have been lost on the vast majority of them, for reasons quite understandable in the context of their [limited] experience. It's completely useless for you to hate them for it.
Y'all have been fucked. The best you can do is to ignore the parts of their behavior which grate on you, and to just do the best you can. It may well end up the case that You will have done the best by them by doing things that result in you being unpopular and poorly evaluated. And you may do the best by yourself as well. Counterintuitive, yes.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:14 PM on March 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Y'all have been fucked. The best you can do is to ignore the parts of their behavior which grate on you, and to just do the best you can. It may well end up the case that You will have done the best by them by doing things that result in you being unpopular and poorly evaluated. And you may do the best by yourself as well. Counterintuitive, yes.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:14 PM on March 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
Please try to have some empathy for your students. They signed up for Intro to Machine Learning (or whatever) in the hope of salvaging some utility out of the ridiculous amount of non-dischargeable debt they are accruing. Your administration is in the wrong here for failing to uphold academic standards, and the students should not be expected to be understanding about this failure. It is not your fault, and it is certainly not your TAs' fault, but the students see you as representatives of the party at fault.
posted by Svejk at 9:28 AM on March 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Svejk at 9:28 AM on March 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it's easy to hate on the students who suddenly flock to the popular discipline (especially when they seem like they really don't want to be there, and are a bit entitled, and yes those kids are immature) but as someone who has a degree in humanities and a degree in sciences, people refuse to have sympathy for kids who do something "worthless" with their degree and then have no job, food, home, etc. So as annoying as it is, their brains are still developing and they're probably under a lot of pressure after paying thousands of dollars and feeling their whole future (and future sympathy) rides on this.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:23 AM on March 28, 2017
posted by stoneandstar at 8:23 AM on March 28, 2017
It's your last year teaching the course, so "what should I do" is kind of moot.
I think it's probably worthwhile to realize that while you surely hate this whole situation, and that have may have carried over to the students in the class, it's not generalizeable. You would probably thoroughly enjoy those students in a different setting. But right now it's hard to see that. And once a class has settled into a bad vibe, it's not usually recoverable. Just get through to the end of it, and look forward. And be glad you're not submitting a tenure packet this summer.
There's a very good point to made that the U has short-shrifted the students, and they -should- be restless and rebelling. You're just the nearest, most obvious target. But finding a way to redirect their angst to the administration would probably be pretty useful to everyone concerned. Done well, it might even change the tone in your class.
I do think you made a mistake in allowing unreasonable expectations to set in - responding in < 1hr is just insane. Yes, they should recognize that as outstanding service, but they don't, they've just accepted that as normal. Set lower, reasonable expectations (in most relationships these are called "boundaries"), and uphold them. Students are responsible for their own learning, their own planning, and for treating other people like humans, not customer-service bots; it is important that they learn those things as well. My syllabus states what to expect (and it is reasonable), I do that, and I don't give it any further thought.
You should: take a good long distant vacation in June.
Best wishes, from the trenches.
posted by Dashy at 9:15 AM on March 31, 2017
I think it's probably worthwhile to realize that while you surely hate this whole situation, and that have may have carried over to the students in the class, it's not generalizeable. You would probably thoroughly enjoy those students in a different setting. But right now it's hard to see that. And once a class has settled into a bad vibe, it's not usually recoverable. Just get through to the end of it, and look forward. And be glad you're not submitting a tenure packet this summer.
There's a very good point to made that the U has short-shrifted the students, and they -should- be restless and rebelling. You're just the nearest, most obvious target. But finding a way to redirect their angst to the administration would probably be pretty useful to everyone concerned. Done well, it might even change the tone in your class.
I do think you made a mistake in allowing unreasonable expectations to set in - responding in < 1hr is just insane. Yes, they should recognize that as outstanding service, but they don't, they've just accepted that as normal. Set lower, reasonable expectations (in most relationships these are called "boundaries"), and uphold them. Students are responsible for their own learning, their own planning, and for treating other people like humans, not customer-service bots; it is important that they learn those things as well. My syllabus states what to expect (and it is reasonable), I do that, and I don't give it any further thought.
You should: take a good long distant vacation in June.
Best wishes, from the trenches.
posted by Dashy at 9:15 AM on March 31, 2017
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Perhaps your department head would be willing to help find more resources if you can back up your request with student complaints. If not, then I'd argue that a lack of support from admins is the bigger problem.
posted by nat at 7:01 AM on March 26, 2017 [15 favorites]