Advice and lawyer recommendations for divorce in Charlotte, NC
March 7, 2017 10:45 AM Subscribe
My friend's husband recently said he's leaving her. They have a 4 year old. What does she need to know and do, and how can I help her?
Background: Friend and Husband are both late 30's, married for 5 years, with one 4 year old Child. Over a year ago, Friend had an affair and Husband found out. They've been trying to work things out, but recently he announced he's leaving. Friend would like to stay together, but is accepting of the fact that it's probably not going to happen. Complication: Husband has a temper, particularly when he drinks. They will go through periods of relative calm, then he'll get worked up again, which will result in shouting matches and occasionally breaking things, most recently some of their kitchen cabinets. When he starts drinking heavily, Friend will lock herself in the guest room. They have largely been keeping the fighting away from Child, but recently Husband yelled at Friend in front of Child and Friend's mother. She insists that he would never hurt Child, but the violence is certainly escalating.
For now, they continue to live together while getting their house ready to sell, which should happen in a few months. Once the house has sold, Friend will buy a condo, and Husband will likely rent, staying in the same city. Friend's parents live in the same town and she can stay with them for a while, but at this point if she moves out, Husband insists that Child stay with him, which she obviously does not want. They've tentatively agreed to share custody 50/50. Friend is in therapy, but thus far has not had the time or money to go more than once every other week.
Friend obviously feels a lot of guilt, but also doesn't want to be taken advantage of during the divorce. For most of their marriage, they have both worked full time, and are both employed, but there was a recent months-long period when Husband had quit his job and Friend supported the family while he looked for work. Friend has been the higher wage-earner for their whole marriage, and came into the marriage with more assets. They've mostly kept their finances separate and split shared expenses. They've tentatively agreed to 50/50 split the equity in the home, which should be about $200,000, as they've both been paying on the mortgage, but Friend paid the down payment on the house by herself. She would like to keep all her retirement accounts and continue to split childcare expenses, but is worried he will get part of her retirement and/or child and spousal support. What is the most likely outcome for her financially?
They've also agreed to not use lawyers, and Friend worries that if he has a lawyer, he will fight for more assets and custody than he would otherwise, but I've talked her into at least having a one-time consultation with a lawyer to find out her rights and what to expect from the process. Do you have a recommendation for a divorce lawyer in Charlotte? I've suggested that she call the police the next time he starts yelling and breaking things, to have a record of his behavior for custody purposes, but she feels that will decrease their chances of a peaceful divorce and staying on good terms. Thoughts? They're waiting until the house sells and they move before telling Child what's going on. What books would you recommend for explaining divorce to a 4 year old? Is there anything I can do to help, other than just general moral support? Unfortunately I live out of state, but she knows she can come visit any time she needs a break. What advice should I be giving her, in addition to protecting herself physically, emotionally, and financially? If you've gone through a divorce, what do you wish your friends would've done or said to help? What other advice do you have for my friend, both in general, and specific to NC laws?
Background: Friend and Husband are both late 30's, married for 5 years, with one 4 year old Child. Over a year ago, Friend had an affair and Husband found out. They've been trying to work things out, but recently he announced he's leaving. Friend would like to stay together, but is accepting of the fact that it's probably not going to happen. Complication: Husband has a temper, particularly when he drinks. They will go through periods of relative calm, then he'll get worked up again, which will result in shouting matches and occasionally breaking things, most recently some of their kitchen cabinets. When he starts drinking heavily, Friend will lock herself in the guest room. They have largely been keeping the fighting away from Child, but recently Husband yelled at Friend in front of Child and Friend's mother. She insists that he would never hurt Child, but the violence is certainly escalating.
For now, they continue to live together while getting their house ready to sell, which should happen in a few months. Once the house has sold, Friend will buy a condo, and Husband will likely rent, staying in the same city. Friend's parents live in the same town and she can stay with them for a while, but at this point if she moves out, Husband insists that Child stay with him, which she obviously does not want. They've tentatively agreed to share custody 50/50. Friend is in therapy, but thus far has not had the time or money to go more than once every other week.
Friend obviously feels a lot of guilt, but also doesn't want to be taken advantage of during the divorce. For most of their marriage, they have both worked full time, and are both employed, but there was a recent months-long period when Husband had quit his job and Friend supported the family while he looked for work. Friend has been the higher wage-earner for their whole marriage, and came into the marriage with more assets. They've mostly kept their finances separate and split shared expenses. They've tentatively agreed to 50/50 split the equity in the home, which should be about $200,000, as they've both been paying on the mortgage, but Friend paid the down payment on the house by herself. She would like to keep all her retirement accounts and continue to split childcare expenses, but is worried he will get part of her retirement and/or child and spousal support. What is the most likely outcome for her financially?
They've also agreed to not use lawyers, and Friend worries that if he has a lawyer, he will fight for more assets and custody than he would otherwise, but I've talked her into at least having a one-time consultation with a lawyer to find out her rights and what to expect from the process. Do you have a recommendation for a divorce lawyer in Charlotte? I've suggested that she call the police the next time he starts yelling and breaking things, to have a record of his behavior for custody purposes, but she feels that will decrease their chances of a peaceful divorce and staying on good terms. Thoughts? They're waiting until the house sells and they move before telling Child what's going on. What books would you recommend for explaining divorce to a 4 year old? Is there anything I can do to help, other than just general moral support? Unfortunately I live out of state, but she knows she can come visit any time she needs a break. What advice should I be giving her, in addition to protecting herself physically, emotionally, and financially? If you've gone through a divorce, what do you wish your friends would've done or said to help? What other advice do you have for my friend, both in general, and specific to NC laws?
Not using lawyers can make sense when both are already in agreement, which it sounds like they're very much not. At the very least, they should agree to mediation with a lawyer - it's a non-adversarial way to do both what she needs and he wants. But I'd still suggest that she meet with a lawyer beforehand, both to know her rights and to have representation lined up in case / when mediation falls apart.
posted by Mchelly at 11:11 AM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Mchelly at 11:11 AM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
It doesn't matter if the parents are in agreement.
There is a child's future at stake.
LAWYER UP.
My brother just went through a divorce and it started out not quite amicably but with a 'let's save ourselves the expense' no lawyer agreement. His wife broke the agreement almost right away, claimed to have lawyer-ed up and came in with an insane list of demands. They worked out a rough agreement and at that point my brother decided he wanted it on paper and lawyered up. It turns out she was lying about lawyering up but in the end she did as well.
My brother's lawyer out-right laughed at their agreement and pointed out about 20 different holes in it that would have effectively bankrupted him and even potentially left his kids and ex-wife destitute. There are also issues of parental permissions, inheritances, trustees and such which need sorting in a divorce.
A divorce lawyer is a big up front cost that will save a huge back end cost and uncertainty. They also can provide useful non-legal resources and advice for people who going through not just the legalities of a divorce but the experience of the divorce.
Also very important for women - the immediate lawyering up process may be necessary to maintain support and divide expense during the separation process.
posted by srboisvert at 11:28 AM on March 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
There is a child's future at stake.
LAWYER UP.
My brother just went through a divorce and it started out not quite amicably but with a 'let's save ourselves the expense' no lawyer agreement. His wife broke the agreement almost right away, claimed to have lawyer-ed up and came in with an insane list of demands. They worked out a rough agreement and at that point my brother decided he wanted it on paper and lawyered up. It turns out she was lying about lawyering up but in the end she did as well.
My brother's lawyer out-right laughed at their agreement and pointed out about 20 different holes in it that would have effectively bankrupted him and even potentially left his kids and ex-wife destitute. There are also issues of parental permissions, inheritances, trustees and such which need sorting in a divorce.
A divorce lawyer is a big up front cost that will save a huge back end cost and uncertainty. They also can provide useful non-legal resources and advice for people who going through not just the legalities of a divorce but the experience of the divorce.
Also very important for women - the immediate lawyering up process may be necessary to maintain support and divide expense during the separation process.
posted by srboisvert at 11:28 AM on March 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Best answer: While maybe people without a child can get away with not using lawyers, this couple needs them.
Also, there are SO many assumptions about how divorce works legally that can really screw people over. Your friend needs a lawyer to guide her through this process in her state.
Friend needs to not agree to any division of assets or anything else. Also they probably have some retirement funds and possibly debt acquired during the marriage and those need to be divided evenly. That's a bummer for your friend, but in some states, that's just how it goes.
There are firm rules in place about how cost of things associated with the child work out. At least in my state, it is driven by relative incomes. There is a baseline cost of the child's existence (additional heat in the home, etc.) and if one parent makes more than the other, the state has a rule that it has to be evened out (child support). However, for other costs like childcare, sports equipment, etc., there are all sorts of other rules in place.
I don't know about your state, but many states assume 50/50 residential custody.
Your friend needs to go see a lawyer now and hit the pause button on all of this other stuff that she is doing. Going to a lawyer doesn't mean that they are going to go to court. Rather, going to a lawyer means that they are going to do the paperwork regarding the division of their finances, how the child will be paid for, the child's residential status, AND a legal agreement about some shared parenting norms and loads of other stuff properly and legally. They can possibly work with a mediator to sort through things. This is cheaper.
This is not like re-tiling the bathroom that you can watch a few YouTube videos, go to Home Depot, and hope that you do an okay job. This is something that you want professionals guiding you through so that you do it correctly and fairly. This is your friend's child's existence here. Not doing it right can really screw over the child and both parents.
posted by k8t at 11:30 AM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, there are SO many assumptions about how divorce works legally that can really screw people over. Your friend needs a lawyer to guide her through this process in her state.
Friend needs to not agree to any division of assets or anything else. Also they probably have some retirement funds and possibly debt acquired during the marriage and those need to be divided evenly. That's a bummer for your friend, but in some states, that's just how it goes.
There are firm rules in place about how cost of things associated with the child work out. At least in my state, it is driven by relative incomes. There is a baseline cost of the child's existence (additional heat in the home, etc.) and if one parent makes more than the other, the state has a rule that it has to be evened out (child support). However, for other costs like childcare, sports equipment, etc., there are all sorts of other rules in place.
I don't know about your state, but many states assume 50/50 residential custody.
Your friend needs to go see a lawyer now and hit the pause button on all of this other stuff that she is doing. Going to a lawyer doesn't mean that they are going to go to court. Rather, going to a lawyer means that they are going to do the paperwork regarding the division of their finances, how the child will be paid for, the child's residential status, AND a legal agreement about some shared parenting norms and loads of other stuff properly and legally. They can possibly work with a mediator to sort through things. This is cheaper.
This is not like re-tiling the bathroom that you can watch a few YouTube videos, go to Home Depot, and hope that you do an okay job. This is something that you want professionals guiding you through so that you do it correctly and fairly. This is your friend's child's existence here. Not doing it right can really screw over the child and both parents.
posted by k8t at 11:30 AM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
My friend recently went through this, with a child about the same age, and a husband that quit his job when the baby was born, despite an agreement that she would be the SAH parent. It was not affordable and she asked him repeatedly to get a job and he refused, relying instead on airbnb income. When child was a couple of years old she started taking freelance work. In the end, he sued her for alimony.
Another issue that she had was custody - he is also violent when drinking and happens to drink a lot. She was trying to appear to be flexible so she put down that she would like to offer 70/30 custody, while still asserting that he is not stable enough for fulltime (or 50/50) custody. The judge told her that if she thinks he's capable of 30% custody then he's certainly capable of 50% custody, and that was that.
So, tell your friend to lawyer up if she doesn't want to pay alimony, and if she has any reservations at all about the child's safety while not in her care, tell her to avoid being magnanimous.
posted by vignettist at 11:33 AM on March 7, 2017 [8 favorites]
Another issue that she had was custody - he is also violent when drinking and happens to drink a lot. She was trying to appear to be flexible so she put down that she would like to offer 70/30 custody, while still asserting that he is not stable enough for fulltime (or 50/50) custody. The judge told her that if she thinks he's capable of 30% custody then he's certainly capable of 50% custody, and that was that.
So, tell your friend to lawyer up if she doesn't want to pay alimony, and if she has any reservations at all about the child's safety while not in her care, tell her to avoid being magnanimous.
posted by vignettist at 11:33 AM on March 7, 2017 [8 favorites]
she needs a good lawyer and a good therapist, stat. glad to see she already has a therapist even though she can only see that person every other week.
he's saying "no lawyers" because he knows that if she retains counsel she will actually figure out what she is entitled to, and he will be on the hook for all of what he owes her rather than what he can convince her she deserves. if i were him, i'd be angry, i might even feel like my life was unraveling before my eyes, i'd be very prone to lashing out, prone to sabotaging her from getting what she deserves, etc.
his temper is an immediate threat, aside from getting a lawyer. if she feels that her safety is at risk, or the safety of their child is at risk, she should immediately leave and go to her parents house, or another safe place, maybe a friend's, and file a police report to document what happened. there's no excuse for him behaving in a way that makes her fearfully lock herself in a guest room in her own home, regardless of her infidelity in the past. they have a four year old FFS. no excuse for him to get drunk and belligerent and shout and throw stuff with a four year old at home who doesn't understand what is happening, but is probably very scared.
if she's not willing to call the police over how he acts at home, ask her if she can at least record some of the violent behavior on her cell phone in order to document it, because this WILL come up in a custody proceeding, even a mediation. if i were her i wouldn't want to leave my four year old alone with my ex knowing he drinks to the point of becoming threatening or physically abusive.
it would be wise for her to copy essential documents and financial information and keep a copy in a safe place, like remotely online, password protected where he can't get to it, or at her parents' house. after all you cannot claim to get your deserved share of something if you don't have records to show it exists. i may sound paranoid, but people who are willing to get drunk and throw stuff seem of a mind to destroy paperwork, too.
i know she wants to remain friends and have a decent coparenting relationship in the future, but right now the goal is to complete the divorce process while protecting her rights and the rights of her child. after that process is complete and she has some security and no longer lives with him, then the amicable coparenting relationship can begin to form. please let her know that right now things are adversarial between her and her husband, and it's the nature of divorce; she shouldn't try to be friends, she shouldn't try to be nice, she should protect herself in a physical and financial sense. when everything is done, that's when it's safe to focus on having some kind of amicable relationship.
posted by zdravo at 11:33 AM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
he's saying "no lawyers" because he knows that if she retains counsel she will actually figure out what she is entitled to, and he will be on the hook for all of what he owes her rather than what he can convince her she deserves. if i were him, i'd be angry, i might even feel like my life was unraveling before my eyes, i'd be very prone to lashing out, prone to sabotaging her from getting what she deserves, etc.
his temper is an immediate threat, aside from getting a lawyer. if she feels that her safety is at risk, or the safety of their child is at risk, she should immediately leave and go to her parents house, or another safe place, maybe a friend's, and file a police report to document what happened. there's no excuse for him behaving in a way that makes her fearfully lock herself in a guest room in her own home, regardless of her infidelity in the past. they have a four year old FFS. no excuse for him to get drunk and belligerent and shout and throw stuff with a four year old at home who doesn't understand what is happening, but is probably very scared.
if she's not willing to call the police over how he acts at home, ask her if she can at least record some of the violent behavior on her cell phone in order to document it, because this WILL come up in a custody proceeding, even a mediation. if i were her i wouldn't want to leave my four year old alone with my ex knowing he drinks to the point of becoming threatening or physically abusive.
it would be wise for her to copy essential documents and financial information and keep a copy in a safe place, like remotely online, password protected where he can't get to it, or at her parents' house. after all you cannot claim to get your deserved share of something if you don't have records to show it exists. i may sound paranoid, but people who are willing to get drunk and throw stuff seem of a mind to destroy paperwork, too.
i know she wants to remain friends and have a decent coparenting relationship in the future, but right now the goal is to complete the divorce process while protecting her rights and the rights of her child. after that process is complete and she has some security and no longer lives with him, then the amicable coparenting relationship can begin to form. please let her know that right now things are adversarial between her and her husband, and it's the nature of divorce; she shouldn't try to be friends, she shouldn't try to be nice, she should protect herself in a physical and financial sense. when everything is done, that's when it's safe to focus on having some kind of amicable relationship.
posted by zdravo at 11:33 AM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, sorry, but I'm gonna pile on with the "Get a lawyer" crowd here. She thinks she'll get less if he has a lawyer? What's she going to do when he refuses to abide by their agreement? What's she going to do when he thinks of something their agreement doesn't take into account?
My ex and I tried to do an amicable one-lawyer-between-us divorce. That was ten years ago, and we are still having quarterly fights about things that we didn't think of back then, and we have spent far more on lawyers than we "saved" back then.
Here's the thing she might not be thinking of: This is not a relationship of two people who have mutually agreed to end said relationship . This is a relationship of three people, one of whom doesn't get a vote but who each of the other two still (presumably) cares about deeply. Your friend and her husband have to deal with this person they made -- and therefore, with each other -- for at least another 14 years. If she doesn't want to half-ass how she and he take care of Child, then they both need to lawyer up.
posted by Etrigan at 11:34 AM on March 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
My ex and I tried to do an amicable one-lawyer-between-us divorce. That was ten years ago, and we are still having quarterly fights about things that we didn't think of back then, and we have spent far more on lawyers than we "saved" back then.
Here's the thing she might not be thinking of: This is not a relationship of two people who have mutually agreed to end said relationship . This is a relationship of three people, one of whom doesn't get a vote but who each of the other two still (presumably) cares about deeply. Your friend and her husband have to deal with this person they made -- and therefore, with each other -- for at least another 14 years. If she doesn't want to half-ass how she and he take care of Child, then they both need to lawyer up.
posted by Etrigan at 11:34 AM on March 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
She needs to hire the best lawyer she can afford and at least get their advice. She doesn't need to announce to her soon to be ex husband that she is getting a lawyer, but she does need to consult one.
posted by corb at 11:36 AM on March 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:36 AM on March 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Get a lawyer. He knows he is in a weaker position. It is going to get ugly no matter what, but a lawyer won't take it personally.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:16 PM on March 7, 2017
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:16 PM on March 7, 2017
If nothing else, she needs a lawyer to sort out custody arrangements. My only memories of my mother and biological father all involve contentious custody hearings, and my life would have been completely different (not for the better), if my mother hadn't had a lawyer and I'd ended up with my emotionally unstable father.
Good luck to your friend.
posted by Everydayville at 2:11 PM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Good luck to your friend.
posted by Everydayville at 2:11 PM on March 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
he's saying "no lawyers" because he knows that if she retains counsel she will actually figure out what she is entitled to, and he will be on the hook for all of what he owes her rather than what he can convince her she deserves.
She needs a lawyer on her side, not a mediator.
posted by JimN2TAW at 2:17 PM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
She needs a lawyer on her side, not a mediator.
posted by JimN2TAW at 2:17 PM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've suggested that she call the police the next time he starts yelling and breaking things, to have a record of his behavior for custody purposes, but she feels that will decrease their chances of a peaceful divorce and staying on good terms. Thoughts?
Lawyer and therapist and spousal abuse counselor. They will never be on good terms again, unless both get major personality transplants. Pie in the sky.
They're waiting until the house sells and they move before telling Child what's going on.
Well, to a large extent, the child already knows what's going on, although I understand that vague future moving plans are hard to discuss with a 4-year-old. Anyway, that's no fit environment for a child. Find a child psychologist too.
posted by JimN2TAW at 2:29 PM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lawyer and therapist and spousal abuse counselor. They will never be on good terms again, unless both get major personality transplants. Pie in the sky.
They're waiting until the house sells and they move before telling Child what's going on.
Well, to a large extent, the child already knows what's going on, although I understand that vague future moving plans are hard to discuss with a 4-year-old. Anyway, that's no fit environment for a child. Find a child psychologist too.
posted by JimN2TAW at 2:29 PM on March 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
PMing you with a name and phone #
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:12 PM on March 7, 2017
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:12 PM on March 7, 2017
Jeff Landers site bedrockdivorce.com has the best financial advice I've found. He does have a lot of Forbes/blog posts to read for free.
Best way to help is getting the books, and both of you reading them, then have a few discussions about things with book in hand. There is a chance that she will not be able to read them so you would essentially be summarizing them.
One nasty issue is if alimony/support/expenses is based on 50/50 custody and then he does not actually take physical custody when he is supposed to. She gets stuck with additional expenses.
posted by Sophont at 8:03 AM on March 8, 2017
Best way to help is getting the books, and both of you reading them, then have a few discussions about things with book in hand. There is a chance that she will not be able to read them so you would essentially be summarizing them.
One nasty issue is if alimony/support/expenses is based on 50/50 custody and then he does not actually take physical custody when he is supposed to. She gets stuck with additional expenses.
posted by Sophont at 8:03 AM on March 8, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
NO NO NO NO NO this is a horrible idea! No way is the verbally abusive father going to wind up with MORE than the 50% custody he's asking for if she hires a lawyer. And if he would get angry about her hiring a lawyer, how are they ever going to have a "peaceful divorce and stay on good terms"? She is being manipulated here, because he is the one who stands to lose more if lawyers get involved.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on March 7, 2017 [38 favorites]