Spousal editing
March 4, 2017 5:28 AM Subscribe
My wife has started writing in earnest. She routinely sends me her writing to ask me "what I think?". This has not gone ideally so far. Best way to provide feedback from a supportive husband? What has gone well for you?
Caveat: I have a terrible poker face and not a good filter.
I've been in this situation twice in my life. You should recuse yourself.
When I was just starting to write for magazines and websites, I asked my best friend who's an editor by trade for her feedback. She responded she was hesitant to do this because feedback inevitably means criticism and she didn't want to be critical of me. She was right and I didn't ask her again.
Later in life I had a BF who was a terrible, godawful writer, but he considered himself to be a talented storyteller. He wrote short stories to self-publish and asked me for feedback. The only honest feedback I could really give him was that his writing was nonsensical as though 100 apes had been given Ritalin then thrown in a room with computers. I mean, he was the WORST -- even his mother asked me to get him to stop with his crazy dream. But he didn't want to hear that his writing sucked, so I gave him the lines my bestie had previously given me; this was his thing and I wanted to be supportive and not critical, so it was best if I stayed out of it all.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 5:53 AM on March 4, 2017 [23 favorites]
When I was just starting to write for magazines and websites, I asked my best friend who's an editor by trade for her feedback. She responded she was hesitant to do this because feedback inevitably means criticism and she didn't want to be critical of me. She was right and I didn't ask her again.
Later in life I had a BF who was a terrible, godawful writer, but he considered himself to be a talented storyteller. He wrote short stories to self-publish and asked me for feedback. The only honest feedback I could really give him was that his writing was nonsensical as though 100 apes had been given Ritalin then thrown in a room with computers. I mean, he was the WORST -- even his mother asked me to get him to stop with his crazy dream. But he didn't want to hear that his writing sucked, so I gave him the lines my bestie had previously given me; this was his thing and I wanted to be supportive and not critical, so it was best if I stayed out of it all.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 5:53 AM on March 4, 2017 [23 favorites]
Best answer: There is a really great answer here which has the benefit of being truthful - editing and critique is a technical skill. On top of that it requires an emotional reserve from the writer. If you say nice things (which I guarantee you is what she wants to hear - ALL writers, when they first start out asking for critique, are seeking to be validated, not criticized), you're just saying that because you're close to her, and if you call the baby (her first efforts at writing) ugly, well, lord help you.
Your best way to provide feedback as a supportive husband is to help her find and get connected with a writer's group. There are many of these online; they're a bit harder to find in-person, but sometimes possible, especially if you live near a college or are in a big city. There is somewhat of a limited help factor to these groups in that they are typically made up largely of non-established writers who are not published themselves, but usually there is one or two people with some talent and a few publications (and sometimes one or two savage critics, which may or may not be the same people). While it won't take her all the way to greatness, I think there is value in reading the unpublished work of other writers. If nothing else, it will help her understand what she's asking you to do...
Another thing which would be helpful is to help her find (maybe buy her) books on writing. Again, there are loads of these, depending on genre she's writing on. Lawrence Block wrote a few pretty good ones on writing commercial fiction - if you mention in this thread or PM me with genre I might have some other suggestions.
Nice thing about THIS method of helping out is that writing, like any other craft, has its common pitfalls, and the books on the subject can help her find out for herself some of the ways it's just barely possible that she needs to improve, without anyone having to personally critique what she's already done.
none of this is meant to sound dismissive of her abilities or drive: all writers start out with limits, just like any other skill.
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
Your best way to provide feedback as a supportive husband is to help her find and get connected with a writer's group. There are many of these online; they're a bit harder to find in-person, but sometimes possible, especially if you live near a college or are in a big city. There is somewhat of a limited help factor to these groups in that they are typically made up largely of non-established writers who are not published themselves, but usually there is one or two people with some talent and a few publications (and sometimes one or two savage critics, which may or may not be the same people). While it won't take her all the way to greatness, I think there is value in reading the unpublished work of other writers. If nothing else, it will help her understand what she's asking you to do...
Another thing which would be helpful is to help her find (maybe buy her) books on writing. Again, there are loads of these, depending on genre she's writing on. Lawrence Block wrote a few pretty good ones on writing commercial fiction - if you mention in this thread or PM me with genre I might have some other suggestions.
Nice thing about THIS method of helping out is that writing, like any other craft, has its common pitfalls, and the books on the subject can help her find out for herself some of the ways it's just barely possible that she needs to improve, without anyone having to personally critique what she's already done.
none of this is meant to sound dismissive of her abilities or drive: all writers start out with limits, just like any other skill.
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
What everyone else has said. Do not agree to participate. This is the ONLY thing that works with my mother, who's been writing the Great American Novel for the past 25 years. I was you for a while, and there was no way I could fill her bottomless pit of need.
posted by sockerpup at 6:30 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sockerpup at 6:30 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can follow all of the standard recommendations for delivering a critique and still end up with hurt feelings if the recipient is only prepared to hear that the work is as great as they think it is. Writing is such a personal thing that it is hard for many writers (especially beginning writers) to separate themselves from the work.
My recommendation would be to recuse yourself.
If that's not possible I think you need to have a conversation with your wife about what she is looking for when she asks for your opinion. Is she really looking for honest critique or does she actually just want some encouragement? If she actually wants honest critique are you the right person to deliver it? Probably not.
posted by dweingart at 6:38 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
My recommendation would be to recuse yourself.
If that's not possible I think you need to have a conversation with your wife about what she is looking for when she asks for your opinion. Is she really looking for honest critique or does she actually just want some encouragement? If she actually wants honest critique are you the right person to deliver it? Probably not.
posted by dweingart at 6:38 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
(What kind of writing are we talking about? fiction, non fiction, poetry? ... )
I've been in this situation many times, but most significantly with my mother, a visual artist, and again with a good friend, a poet. If you can find any way to opt out, then do so. There is some good advice above. Strongly seconding this: editing and critique is a technical skill. On top of that it requires an emotional reserve from the writer. You want to tell her that you can't be unbiased, because you are so close to her.
If you can't opt out (and in my case I could not completely), then you can try the some of the strategies I used. I've sometimes said that I will only do some "editing" for clarity (commas and such), because too close to be unbiased. If there is some one thing you like or feel you can give feedback on, then do that, along the lines of "I think you are doing interesting things with the Helen character". When my friend sent me some fairly bad poems (he is a good poet generally, but health issues have negatively affected him), I read through them and picked one I thought had the most potential, and then told him I liked that one. If you can genuinely find even one small thing to praise in each piece then you don't have to lie.
So, all that is a kind of long version of what dweingart says, of trying to ask if she wants a "professional" critique, or encouragement. If she wants a critique, then other writers are the ones to help with that, and hooking up with a writers group either online or in real life would be the best way to go about that.
posted by gudrun at 6:57 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been in this situation many times, but most significantly with my mother, a visual artist, and again with a good friend, a poet. If you can find any way to opt out, then do so. There is some good advice above. Strongly seconding this: editing and critique is a technical skill. On top of that it requires an emotional reserve from the writer. You want to tell her that you can't be unbiased, because you are so close to her.
If you can't opt out (and in my case I could not completely), then you can try the some of the strategies I used. I've sometimes said that I will only do some "editing" for clarity (commas and such), because too close to be unbiased. If there is some one thing you like or feel you can give feedback on, then do that, along the lines of "I think you are doing interesting things with the Helen character". When my friend sent me some fairly bad poems (he is a good poet generally, but health issues have negatively affected him), I read through them and picked one I thought had the most potential, and then told him I liked that one. If you can genuinely find even one small thing to praise in each piece then you don't have to lie.
So, all that is a kind of long version of what dweingart says, of trying to ask if she wants a "professional" critique, or encouragement. If she wants a critique, then other writers are the ones to help with that, and hooking up with a writers group either online or in real life would be the best way to go about that.
posted by gudrun at 6:57 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I love this comic book by the This American Life folks because it really drives home an important point: you have to have the courage to be terrible in order to grow to the point where you are good.
Having the courage to be less than the best is helped a lot by having the strategic wherewithal to know where and how to get support even when you are bad, and where and how to get the critique that will help you without devastating you. You belong in the former class, very likely.
However: an important part of critique (which a _lot_ of teachers don't get) is identifying what _is_ working, what is better, what is special about a particular artist as they are growing. You _can_ do that, if you are discerning enough. Otherwise, all an artist hears is that they are deficient; they get a little better, and they hear new ways they are deficient; they somehow persevere, and they still hear how they are deficient.
You can not only identify the special, good parts of what she's writing or how it fits her, you can also critique her critics, within reason. If one of them squashes her in a way you feel misses the point, that's good to hear and possibly even useful.
You can also ask her what standards and works _she_ is interested in being compared to, and then ask her how her work is similar and different from those things. Just having a reason to think this kind of thing through, and a good listener, can help a lot. And by a lot, I think it's crucial and something a _huge_ numbers of aspiring artists don't have.
It might even be fun for her and you to talk about example works written by others, which you can then use as a framework for talking about the kind of writing she respects.
What matters isn't whether a work is "good" or "bad". In some ways, that's not even a meaningful question. What matters is what she's trying to achieve, what result she's trying to get, and whether she is able to identify how close she is -- and to not lose what she is already, naturally good at and passionate about.
posted by amtho at 7:03 AM on March 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
Having the courage to be less than the best is helped a lot by having the strategic wherewithal to know where and how to get support even when you are bad, and where and how to get the critique that will help you without devastating you. You belong in the former class, very likely.
However: an important part of critique (which a _lot_ of teachers don't get) is identifying what _is_ working, what is better, what is special about a particular artist as they are growing. You _can_ do that, if you are discerning enough. Otherwise, all an artist hears is that they are deficient; they get a little better, and they hear new ways they are deficient; they somehow persevere, and they still hear how they are deficient.
You can not only identify the special, good parts of what she's writing or how it fits her, you can also critique her critics, within reason. If one of them squashes her in a way you feel misses the point, that's good to hear and possibly even useful.
You can also ask her what standards and works _she_ is interested in being compared to, and then ask her how her work is similar and different from those things. Just having a reason to think this kind of thing through, and a good listener, can help a lot. And by a lot, I think it's crucial and something a _huge_ numbers of aspiring artists don't have.
It might even be fun for her and you to talk about example works written by others, which you can then use as a framework for talking about the kind of writing she respects.
What matters isn't whether a work is "good" or "bad". In some ways, that's not even a meaningful question. What matters is what she's trying to achieve, what result she's trying to get, and whether she is able to identify how close she is -- and to not lose what she is already, naturally good at and passionate about.
posted by amtho at 7:03 AM on March 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
Nthing the self-recusal. I hope you can find a way to successfully navigate that outcome.
Critique her honestly and you may crush her (because no one's output is perfect, and I assume you would rather be constructive vs. pay empty lip service; and it's likely you will have things to say that come across as critical).
Refuse to do it, even in the gentlest and most loving manner, and you could still crush her; she may internalize that refusal as your rejection of her efforts, and extend that to a rejection of her as a person.
Whether it's the story, the song, the short film, the crafty craft, the painting... those waters are fraught with so much peril. "What did you think?" (or worse, "Did you like it?") are words that freeze my heart. Because I have an editing eye, a warehouse of references and a great deal of opinions about things. I don't do empty lip service. If you ask me, I will tell you. I will take exceptional care to present my feedback as objectively and respectfully as I am capable, and to always balance the response to praise what worked along with what was less successful; but- I will not lie. (Some people can dissemble, and say whatever the moment seems to require; I do not claim to say one point of view is better than the other. Only you can judge your own capacity.)
[/personalsidebar: My ex was an approval junkie. Ostensibly enthusing over this or that Creative Thing, and diving in headfirst, often to his/our financial and personal resources' detriment, masked the truth- nothing mattered more than the validation. All his creative efforts were thinly masked efforts to get others to praise him, and stamp out the long-standing damage done by a cold, disapproving father. So I have had this conversation, and many others related to it, over and over again. So much of his life became one big desire to have everything hung on the metaphorical refrigerator door. In time this became untenable and personally exhausting. The well was never filled, because he was never truly doing any of it for himself. /endsidebar. YMMV.]
That being said, there are always people that cannot take even the most thoughtfully presented feedback. And quite often, it seems that the thinnest-skinned are the neediest. Their validation well is never filled. Is she touchy in other areas of this type? Does she get upset if you don't like her cooking? Does she get moody over stuff?
Bottom line... it's human nature to want those closest to us to be our strongest supporters, regardless of what we do. When your spouse, or other very close family member, offers anything other than unconditional approval, it can be devastating. Only you can gauge the risk here. Words said cannot be recalled. Perceived rejection can manifest just as painfully as real, outright rejection. A wife's feelings are, IMO, much more important to consider than, say, those of a random friend at your wine-and-painting club.
If it's not disingenuous to frame it as such, decline with reasons like "I'm not skilled enough to critique anyone's writing," or similar words. (Obviously, this won't fly, if you are clearly skilled and have a backlog of reasoned commentary of others' work she can point to as proof that you know your stuff).
Possible words?:
"Honey, I love that you are excited about your writing. The most important part of it is the joy it brings you, and that you are doing it for yourself. I want you to know that you have my unconditional support in that effort. That's why it does not matter in the least what I think about your work. What matters is that you love doing it. I love you for being creative and finding a meaningful way to express yourself. And while I love you for trusting me enough to share it with me, I strongly believe that my validation is not a requirement for your continued happiness. But if you want me to help you look for local writers' groups or online forums that offer feedback, analysis and opinion to help guide you along your path as a new writer, I am ON IT. Let's work together to find those resources. What do you think about _______?" [insert name of possible option that you have already looked up]
I would hope to exit such an exchange with the expectation established that I WILL NOT BE REVIEWING YOUR WORK. Worse than having this conversation once is that you have to have it over and over again. To have to keep saying, "Honey, I thought we decided that you would not be asking me to read your writings anymore?" and then the whole thing gets hauled out yet again... nope. nope nope. I wish you all the best.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:05 AM on March 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Critique her honestly and you may crush her (because no one's output is perfect, and I assume you would rather be constructive vs. pay empty lip service; and it's likely you will have things to say that come across as critical).
Refuse to do it, even in the gentlest and most loving manner, and you could still crush her; she may internalize that refusal as your rejection of her efforts, and extend that to a rejection of her as a person.
Whether it's the story, the song, the short film, the crafty craft, the painting... those waters are fraught with so much peril. "What did you think?" (or worse, "Did you like it?") are words that freeze my heart. Because I have an editing eye, a warehouse of references and a great deal of opinions about things. I don't do empty lip service. If you ask me, I will tell you. I will take exceptional care to present my feedback as objectively and respectfully as I am capable, and to always balance the response to praise what worked along with what was less successful; but- I will not lie. (Some people can dissemble, and say whatever the moment seems to require; I do not claim to say one point of view is better than the other. Only you can judge your own capacity.)
[/personalsidebar: My ex was an approval junkie. Ostensibly enthusing over this or that Creative Thing, and diving in headfirst, often to his/our financial and personal resources' detriment, masked the truth- nothing mattered more than the validation. All his creative efforts were thinly masked efforts to get others to praise him, and stamp out the long-standing damage done by a cold, disapproving father. So I have had this conversation, and many others related to it, over and over again. So much of his life became one big desire to have everything hung on the metaphorical refrigerator door. In time this became untenable and personally exhausting. The well was never filled, because he was never truly doing any of it for himself. /endsidebar. YMMV.]
That being said, there are always people that cannot take even the most thoughtfully presented feedback. And quite often, it seems that the thinnest-skinned are the neediest. Their validation well is never filled. Is she touchy in other areas of this type? Does she get upset if you don't like her cooking? Does she get moody over stuff?
Bottom line... it's human nature to want those closest to us to be our strongest supporters, regardless of what we do. When your spouse, or other very close family member, offers anything other than unconditional approval, it can be devastating. Only you can gauge the risk here. Words said cannot be recalled. Perceived rejection can manifest just as painfully as real, outright rejection. A wife's feelings are, IMO, much more important to consider than, say, those of a random friend at your wine-and-painting club.
If it's not disingenuous to frame it as such, decline with reasons like "I'm not skilled enough to critique anyone's writing," or similar words. (Obviously, this won't fly, if you are clearly skilled and have a backlog of reasoned commentary of others' work she can point to as proof that you know your stuff).
Possible words?:
"Honey, I love that you are excited about your writing. The most important part of it is the joy it brings you, and that you are doing it for yourself. I want you to know that you have my unconditional support in that effort. That's why it does not matter in the least what I think about your work. What matters is that you love doing it. I love you for being creative and finding a meaningful way to express yourself. And while I love you for trusting me enough to share it with me, I strongly believe that my validation is not a requirement for your continued happiness. But if you want me to help you look for local writers' groups or online forums that offer feedback, analysis and opinion to help guide you along your path as a new writer, I am ON IT. Let's work together to find those resources. What do you think about _______?" [insert name of possible option that you have already looked up]
I would hope to exit such an exchange with the expectation established that I WILL NOT BE REVIEWING YOUR WORK. Worse than having this conversation once is that you have to have it over and over again. To have to keep saying, "Honey, I thought we decided that you would not be asking me to read your writings anymore?" and then the whole thing gets hauled out yet again... nope. nope nope. I wish you all the best.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:05 AM on March 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
On the other side here - Mrs. Mogur (in her former life) was an experienced and talented editor (we met, in fact, when she hired me to write an article about organic ginseng), so when I had some fiction to show, I naturally showed it to her. She gave me her honest opinion, which was 1) correct and 2) painful to hear, but she also told me what was working in the piece, and was very clear that she thought I had potential if I could ever stop some of my bad habits. Also to stop being such a sexist, but that was part of a general trend of her calling me on my bullshit, which was one of the things I love about her.
So, it's possible for it to work, but from the comments above, it is also very rare.
posted by Mogur at 7:32 AM on March 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
So, it's possible for it to work, but from the comments above, it is also very rare.
posted by Mogur at 7:32 AM on March 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
My and my husband both write and he reads my work, and I read his sometimes as well. I think recusal is definitely something to consider, but what we've found works pretty well (after some less successful approaches) is for the person asking for feedback to be as specific as possible about what they want and how they'd like to receive it. No "what do you think" but instead "Please tell me what you think about X aspect" or "Please tell me one thing that was working well, and one thing that took you out of the story". I've also found that it works much better for me if he can write down his response and then email it to me--I think there is a natural instinct to talk about it (since, you know, we live together and all) but I get defensive sometimes when we talk and reading his thoughts allows me process them better.
posted by pie_seven at 8:31 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by pie_seven at 8:31 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Professional writer here. Recuse, recuse, recuse.
If she actually wanted feedback, she'd get it from other writers or editors, either in exchange for reading their stuff, or by paying them for what is actually a difficult and demanding job.
If she wants to take this pursuit seriously, she should treat it seriously. I don't care if Stephen King's wife reads his work -- she's also a writer, btw.
In addition, if she's just starting out, it's probably terrible. The best thing she can do is put it in a drawer and get to work on the next book. Then when she's done with book #2, she gets to take book #1 out of the drawer and read it. When that makes her want to curl into a ball and disappear, you, the helpful spouse, can say, but honey look how much you've learned since then -- look at book #2!
Her work is supposed to be terrible in the beginning. You get better by writing more books and seeking professional feedback, not by cornering loved ones into lying to you about the terrible first books.
Seriously, there's no shortcuts. Put it in a drawer, write more, hire editors, work on developing your own content editing skills (possibly by reading lots of books on storytelling / structure).
I sympathize with her, bc I asked people close to me once upon a time, too. I sincerely regret it. It's not a fair ask.
No short cuts.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
If she actually wanted feedback, she'd get it from other writers or editors, either in exchange for reading their stuff, or by paying them for what is actually a difficult and demanding job.
If she wants to take this pursuit seriously, she should treat it seriously. I don't care if Stephen King's wife reads his work -- she's also a writer, btw.
In addition, if she's just starting out, it's probably terrible. The best thing she can do is put it in a drawer and get to work on the next book. Then when she's done with book #2, she gets to take book #1 out of the drawer and read it. When that makes her want to curl into a ball and disappear, you, the helpful spouse, can say, but honey look how much you've learned since then -- look at book #2!
Her work is supposed to be terrible in the beginning. You get better by writing more books and seeking professional feedback, not by cornering loved ones into lying to you about the terrible first books.
Seriously, there's no shortcuts. Put it in a drawer, write more, hire editors, work on developing your own content editing skills (possibly by reading lots of books on storytelling / structure).
I sympathize with her, bc I asked people close to me once upon a time, too. I sincerely regret it. It's not a fair ask.
No short cuts.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Some people just aren't built for this, and it may depend on the content and style of the writing as well. My husband and I can proof/edit for each other for nonfiction just fine, and I can give productive notes on his comedy videos, but we don't entirely get each other on fiction and don't give notes well on it.
I am, in fact, terrible at providing helpful support on fiction for anyone I know and so won't beta read for anybody but strangers. There are some people I know whose books I always buy when they come out but I can't read them. I wish I could ban everyone I know from reading any fiction of mine ever. There's just a lot of invisible baggagey stuff there that is hard to overlook, and there's trust issues and knowing that someone else has to walk around with your weird word crap in their heads. I don't like it, it's fine for you to not like it, and it's fine for you to prefer/encourage a transactional relationship with editors (and, in turn, she may develop a fantastic relationship with those people, but it will be with the writing having always been an aspect).
Just claim you're too close to it. Tell her you're not experienced/educated enough to be giving the right kind of feedback at such a delicate point in the process and you don't think you're helping. I would in the strongest terms recommend being real real careful with the pandery "Sweetie baby, you know I love you and it doesn't matter what I think" because all she's going to hear after that is "you are a fucking shit writer, the worst thing that has ever typed a key including cats and inanimate objects, and I cannot tolerate another word of your useless dreck, get it away from me before it literally murders me." Unless you absolutely know her to need that kind of babying, you are far better off with a supportive and clinical, "I am going to fuck this up, and that's making me super tense and I don't want the responsibility. What I *can* do is take over dinner/kid wrangling/other responsibility while you find and work with a great writing group so you can have skilled discourse and feedback."
posted by Lyn Never at 9:11 AM on March 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am, in fact, terrible at providing helpful support on fiction for anyone I know and so won't beta read for anybody but strangers. There are some people I know whose books I always buy when they come out but I can't read them. I wish I could ban everyone I know from reading any fiction of mine ever. There's just a lot of invisible baggagey stuff there that is hard to overlook, and there's trust issues and knowing that someone else has to walk around with your weird word crap in their heads. I don't like it, it's fine for you to not like it, and it's fine for you to prefer/encourage a transactional relationship with editors (and, in turn, she may develop a fantastic relationship with those people, but it will be with the writing having always been an aspect).
Just claim you're too close to it. Tell her you're not experienced/educated enough to be giving the right kind of feedback at such a delicate point in the process and you don't think you're helping. I would in the strongest terms recommend being real real careful with the pandery "Sweetie baby, you know I love you and it doesn't matter what I think" because all she's going to hear after that is "you are a fucking shit writer, the worst thing that has ever typed a key including cats and inanimate objects, and I cannot tolerate another word of your useless dreck, get it away from me before it literally murders me." Unless you absolutely know her to need that kind of babying, you are far better off with a supportive and clinical, "I am going to fuck this up, and that's making me super tense and I don't want the responsibility. What I *can* do is take over dinner/kid wrangling/other responsibility while you find and work with a great writing group so you can have skilled discourse and feedback."
posted by Lyn Never at 9:11 AM on March 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I agree that you should probably step back, but if you choose not to (or she won't let you):
Ask her what she thinks of it. What does she think it does well, and what does she think needs work? What is she trying to accomplish? What does she want to hear? This will not produce the best editing, but it will produce s better relationship.
And then just be constructive. Don't say "it's not good"; give her concrete suggestions on how to improve. "I don't think that character would say that at that particular moment." "Try to cut the length in this explanatory section." Stay away from value judgments and give actionable to-do items.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:28 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ask her what she thinks of it. What does she think it does well, and what does she think needs work? What is she trying to accomplish? What does she want to hear? This will not produce the best editing, but it will produce s better relationship.
And then just be constructive. Don't say "it's not good"; give her concrete suggestions on how to improve. "I don't think that character would say that at that particular moment." "Try to cut the length in this explanatory section." Stay away from value judgments and give actionable to-do items.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:28 AM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I did some editing for a romantic partner. It went well, mostly. I also feel qualified to provide at least amateur, first look through, catch the spelling and non sequitur/basic errors editing of the type she was looking for.
It took her a bit to wrap her head around the professional vs personal criticisms.... I loved her and supported her, and was willing to back her goal of writing (especially since she had real talent for it, which helped) but when I was wearing the Editing Hat it was just about what was written on paper. She objected a little to any editing feedback that wasn't 100% obvous (Like correctly spelling obvious there) at first, but we soon settled into "this isn't attacking me, this is to try to improve the book. I don't HAVE to follow any suggestions made, but I really should consider them carefully"
Explaining why I was making editorial comments on things helped. Especially when I could contrast with places she did it 100% right.
posted by Jacen at 9:37 AM on March 4, 2017
It took her a bit to wrap her head around the professional vs personal criticisms.... I loved her and supported her, and was willing to back her goal of writing (especially since she had real talent for it, which helped) but when I was wearing the Editing Hat it was just about what was written on paper. She objected a little to any editing feedback that wasn't 100% obvous (Like correctly spelling obvious there) at first, but we soon settled into "this isn't attacking me, this is to try to improve the book. I don't HAVE to follow any suggestions made, but I really should consider them carefully"
Explaining why I was making editorial comments on things helped. Especially when I could contrast with places she did it 100% right.
posted by Jacen at 9:37 AM on March 4, 2017
She's asking you what you think as a husband, not a professional editor.
I find when people say they have a bad poker face and no filter, it usually means they know exactly how to act and what to say to come across kindly, but feel they shouldn't have to.
posted by kapers at 10:08 AM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I find when people say they have a bad poker face and no filter, it usually means they know exactly how to act and what to say to come across kindly, but feel they shouldn't have to.
posted by kapers at 10:08 AM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
An alternative to recusal: have them read it out loud, and then you try to repeat as much as possible of the content back to them. A fiction writing teacher of mine allowed no student critiques in class, only this method. You could tell a lot about how a piece was working by how much or how little they took away from it. It is also really good for a writer to read their work out loud, with or without an audience.
posted by BibiRose at 10:17 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 10:17 AM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Good editing advice when editing loved ones: Note what you like and want to see more of. Be specific and admiring. Use the word 'you' when giving positive feedback, as in, "You use metaphor beautifully here".
For negative feedback, keep it to half the quantity of your positive feedback. Do not use the world you ( try, "This sentence is unclear"), and focus on mechanical aspects of the writings such as unclear grammar or typos.
Good luck.
posted by latkes at 12:26 PM on March 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
For negative feedback, keep it to half the quantity of your positive feedback. Do not use the world you ( try, "This sentence is unclear"), and focus on mechanical aspects of the writings such as unclear grammar or typos.
Good luck.
posted by latkes at 12:26 PM on March 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
I also concur with the advice not to give her critique. But if you do, make sure your praise and appreciation is as unfiltered as your criticism.
As a former professional editor I don't critique for anyone close to me. I'm actually pretty good at delivering the good and the bad and have nurtured some writers through awkward stages but they could hang up on me, go swear, go for a run, and then meet the next deadline with my name pinned to the wall with darts in it all they liked.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:10 PM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
As a former professional editor I don't critique for anyone close to me. I'm actually pretty good at delivering the good and the bad and have nurtured some writers through awkward stages but they could hang up on me, go swear, go for a run, and then meet the next deadline with my name pinned to the wall with darts in it all they liked.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:10 PM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Given that you've already favorited an answer, perhaps you've made up your mind. But I'd like to suggest something quite different from the answer you favorited.
This is your spouse. The person you are supposed to support emotionally through thick and thin. You say that writing is something she is doing in earnest. She's investing a lot of her time and self into it. When she asks you what you think, this is a "bid for connection". A pretty large bid, given the importance of her writing to her.
Research by the Gottman Institute that clearly shows that partners who turn towards rather than away from each other's bids for connection are the couples who stay together long term. If you "recuse" yourself, you are turning away from her bid for connection in a pretty dramatic fashion. It's more helpful to your relationship to turn towards it.
I don't believe she was asking for your editing services or a critique. I believe she is trying to share this very important component of her life with you. When you read her work, don't you get anything out of it? Aren't you interested in what she's doing? Isn't it wonderful to get an insight into your wife's creative life, her inner workings? I'm sure there are many things you can comment on that are legitimately fascinating--or should be! You don't have to lie, just take the focus of off critiquing and onto connecting. What do you find out about your wife when you read her work? What additional questions does that bring up that you'd be curious to find the answer to? What are her dreams and goals for this writing? Use this as a way to get closer to her.
posted by nirblegee at 1:13 PM on March 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
This is your spouse. The person you are supposed to support emotionally through thick and thin. You say that writing is something she is doing in earnest. She's investing a lot of her time and self into it. When she asks you what you think, this is a "bid for connection". A pretty large bid, given the importance of her writing to her.
Research by the Gottman Institute that clearly shows that partners who turn towards rather than away from each other's bids for connection are the couples who stay together long term. If you "recuse" yourself, you are turning away from her bid for connection in a pretty dramatic fashion. It's more helpful to your relationship to turn towards it.
I don't believe she was asking for your editing services or a critique. I believe she is trying to share this very important component of her life with you. When you read her work, don't you get anything out of it? Aren't you interested in what she's doing? Isn't it wonderful to get an insight into your wife's creative life, her inner workings? I'm sure there are many things you can comment on that are legitimately fascinating--or should be! You don't have to lie, just take the focus of off critiquing and onto connecting. What do you find out about your wife when you read her work? What additional questions does that bring up that you'd be curious to find the answer to? What are her dreams and goals for this writing? Use this as a way to get closer to her.
posted by nirblegee at 1:13 PM on March 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
I feel like a heartless machine reading a lot of these comments, but I provide in-depth, and often negative, critique for my mom's fiction (and I appreciate Lyn Never's baggage comment because it is very true - it's often uncomfortable to read fiction written by people you know well) and my husband's non-fiction writing and I'm totally honest about what I think is good, what doesn't work, etc. They're adults, they asked for feedback, and I'm never mean about it but I don't try to sugarcoat my criticism either. They may disagree with me (and my (non-American) mom will try to convince me I'm wrong about her butchering American idioms and class markers), but it's never hurt our relationships.
Even if what your wife is writing is awful and totally not to your taste, I'm sure you're capable of giving her constructive feedback in a kind way. If you don't know how to do that, it's a skill that's worth learning for other areas of life, so why not use this opportunity to practice and new skill for you while you help her improve her skills at her new hobby? Be honest with her that you don't know how to give critical feedback without hurting her feelings and figure out a system that works for both of you. I very much agree with nirblegee that your bowing out of giving feedback is going to feel like a rejection of her just as much or more than giving negative feedback will.
posted by snaw at 1:46 PM on March 4, 2017
Even if what your wife is writing is awful and totally not to your taste, I'm sure you're capable of giving her constructive feedback in a kind way. If you don't know how to do that, it's a skill that's worth learning for other areas of life, so why not use this opportunity to practice and new skill for you while you help her improve her skills at her new hobby? Be honest with her that you don't know how to give critical feedback without hurting her feelings and figure out a system that works for both of you. I very much agree with nirblegee that your bowing out of giving feedback is going to feel like a rejection of her just as much or more than giving negative feedback will.
posted by snaw at 1:46 PM on March 4, 2017
You already marked best answer, but not just one more vote for recuse but a vote for recuse with PEP TALKS. (+1 professional editor who stopped sharing work with her husband and vv). I love Gottman as much as the next guy but I think about the relationships I have had with my editors... the really good ones... and I do not wish that kind of storm of defensiveness, frustration and gratitude on a loved one. Sometimes friends who aren't already "writing-friends" want eyes on something. But what they really want, rather than the oily hands of getting under the hood with someone to fix their writing and all the sweaty mess that entails, is a pep talk. Everyone loves pep talks! Everyone could use a pep talk that writing is hard, they are brave to keep writing, you can't write and edit at the same time, we are our own worst critics, they should just keep writing and not quit, it doesn't matter if it's any good right now, that their voice matters so don't quit. Writing is a solitary activity and there are not shortcuts. I have given this pep talk a thousand times and hope to give it a thousand more. I think of it like holding a sign while someone runs a marathon. What am I supposed to do, correct their form? They just need to finish. As schadenfrau says, actually writing, getting the shitty first drafts out of the way, sticking with it and sitting down to write even when it's not fun and glamorous is way more important than you fixing any comma errors at this stage. The way to foster that confidence and experience is hella pep talks. There are ways to be supportive that don't involve actually editing-- like giving her time and space to write, helping find a good writing group, buying ace writing / self help / creative habit books, all mentioned above.
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:36 PM on March 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:36 PM on March 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
My sons often basically do for me what latkes suggests. They let me know if they notice typos and they say stuff like "I especially enjoyed this particular line."
But I send them my writing in part to keep them in the loop: "Look, I blogged today!" They aren't expected to adore my writing. They frequently reply with "read it". Anything more is optional and, really, that is often optional as well. The primary point is to communicate that I did a thing.
But if it is going badly and what she really wants is praise, not constructive feedback, then recusing yourself may be the best way to handle this. I thought I wrote well when I started because I got good grades on my writing in school and stuff like that. Then, I began doing it for pay. The entire purpose and metrics are entirely different from high school and college writing. This was something of a shock for me.
It wasn't that I had a fragile ego. It was more that the feedback I was getting -- that it wasn't all that good, really -- flew in the face of everything I had ever experienced or been told before. This made it difficult to accept. It is like being told "Gravity is not real. They lied to you in school."
So let me gently suggest that this might be hard because she has a long track record of consistently being told by many sources that she writes well. But writing for a broad audience out in the world is completely different from writing to get an A from your teacher in school. I have done this for five years now and NOW I understand that I needed to grow as a writer. I did not understand that when I started and you could not have explained that to me. I would have felt like you were calling me stupid.
posted by Michele in California at 3:57 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
But I send them my writing in part to keep them in the loop: "Look, I blogged today!" They aren't expected to adore my writing. They frequently reply with "read it". Anything more is optional and, really, that is often optional as well. The primary point is to communicate that I did a thing.
But if it is going badly and what she really wants is praise, not constructive feedback, then recusing yourself may be the best way to handle this. I thought I wrote well when I started because I got good grades on my writing in school and stuff like that. Then, I began doing it for pay. The entire purpose and metrics are entirely different from high school and college writing. This was something of a shock for me.
It wasn't that I had a fragile ego. It was more that the feedback I was getting -- that it wasn't all that good, really -- flew in the face of everything I had ever experienced or been told before. This made it difficult to accept. It is like being told "Gravity is not real. They lied to you in school."
So let me gently suggest that this might be hard because she has a long track record of consistently being told by many sources that she writes well. But writing for a broad audience out in the world is completely different from writing to get an A from your teacher in school. I have done this for five years now and NOW I understand that I needed to grow as a writer. I did not understand that when I started and you could not have explained that to me. I would have felt like you were calling me stupid.
posted by Michele in California at 3:57 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Some people don't take criticism well. You haven't said much about what's going on here, but I'm guessing the reason why you're asking is because she's not taking it well. I take it that she's not looking for honest feedback? If your nearest and dearest doesn't take it well, then you can't get into a critique partner relationship with her. I don't know if you're a professional writer type, but if you're not you can try to beg off, citing that. Your wife may just be wanting "It's great, honey!" stuff, but if you truly can't deliver that line with conviction repeatedly, then the best thing you can do is to well, not say anything, Gottman or not. (Let's just say that someone I know and I have come to this detente for a reason. The person can't deal with criticism, so I just say nothing.)
I find when people say they have a bad poker face and no filter, it usually means they know exactly how to act and what to say to come across kindly, but feel they shouldn't have to.
Or it could just mean they're a terrible actor at selling "It's great, honey!" Especially if wife wants nothing but, "It's great, honey!" over and over again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:00 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I find when people say they have a bad poker face and no filter, it usually means they know exactly how to act and what to say to come across kindly, but feel they shouldn't have to.
Or it could just mean they're a terrible actor at selling "It's great, honey!" Especially if wife wants nothing but, "It's great, honey!" over and over again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:00 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is it honestly that terrible that you can't balance your critique with praise of what she's doing well? You could do the sandwich-the-bad-between-two-good comments thing, or just straight up say "I like the direction here, but the pacing is off," or whatever. I don't know. I used to edit a literary mag with a lot of subpar submissions and ultimately I felt my goal was to help the authors engage constructively with their work, not pass ultimate judgment on whether they were good or not. And I could almost always find a kernel of truth in their writing to turn my attention to.
I used to ask my partner to read my poetry on occasion (I also participated in many poetry workshops and published some poetry so it wasn't entirely an amateur pursuit), and hearing an empty and obviously false "yeah, it's great honey" was so much harder to deal with than a little honesty that showed earnest engagement with the work. Maybe that's not what she wants; maybe she's sensitive and touchy about it now, which means recusing yourself is best. But a lot of artists just want to see that something deep within their soul stirred something within yours, even if it's not what they expected or 100% positive. I think it can be a very meaningful show of respect to read it and give it some real attention.
I mean, I'm giving your wife some credit here that she's honest with herself that doing things well requires a lot of failure and trial by error at first. If she's not, disregard! But treating her like a fellow adult and critical mind of her own sounds more conducive to intimacy than a dismissive or patronizing blanket statement of praise.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:41 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I used to ask my partner to read my poetry on occasion (I also participated in many poetry workshops and published some poetry so it wasn't entirely an amateur pursuit), and hearing an empty and obviously false "yeah, it's great honey" was so much harder to deal with than a little honesty that showed earnest engagement with the work. Maybe that's not what she wants; maybe she's sensitive and touchy about it now, which means recusing yourself is best. But a lot of artists just want to see that something deep within their soul stirred something within yours, even if it's not what they expected or 100% positive. I think it can be a very meaningful show of respect to read it and give it some real attention.
I mean, I'm giving your wife some credit here that she's honest with herself that doing things well requires a lot of failure and trial by error at first. If she's not, disregard! But treating her like a fellow adult and critical mind of her own sounds more conducive to intimacy than a dismissive or patronizing blanket statement of praise.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:41 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wish I'd seen this earlier, hope you're still reading the thread, because I've just gone through this process with my wife. She is a journalist and has spent the last 3-4 years on a book which is publishing this month. She's trying to figure out what to do with all her new free time.
Your ability to do this will largely depend on how well you two communicate with each other, and how well she values criticism. I had the benefit of a spouse who could emotionally detach from the work in pursuit of making it better. And in addition to my critiques, she also sought out professional editing services. In her professional life, receiving editorial criticism is like breathing, so I think we had a leg up in that respect.
Whenever she would ask me to read a draft or section, I would ask her, "What are you asking me to look for?" I found that if I got her to be specific about what she needed, then I could focus on the task and just deliver that.
Sometimes it was a grammar read. Other times she asked me to review relevant technical bits (there was some technical subject matter that I have some expertise in.) Sometimes she just asked me to read for flow. I'd stumble in certain places, and it was easy to tell her, "I got a little lost here because I didn't realize that Dick was talking to Jane after this event with Spot."
Looking back, the key to that was to explain what I was experiencing as a reader, rather than whether or not I liked the material.
The tough bits were early on - her first draft was really, really, rough. We both expected that. It evolved. It got really good. Just took time.
Through each read, I'd tell her where I saw improvement and praised the things that I thought were good. If I ran into something I didn't like or was a negative, I'd ask about it from a position of ignorance, which resulted in her figuring out the necessary change in the process of explaining it to me. This wasn't manipulative - this is part of the language of our marriage and it works very well for us as it tends to respect our individual emotional needs.
Writing a book is a tough, tough thing to do. Be as supportive as you can. The rewards can be very satisfying.
posted by Thistledown at 1:39 PM on March 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your ability to do this will largely depend on how well you two communicate with each other, and how well she values criticism. I had the benefit of a spouse who could emotionally detach from the work in pursuit of making it better. And in addition to my critiques, she also sought out professional editing services. In her professional life, receiving editorial criticism is like breathing, so I think we had a leg up in that respect.
Whenever she would ask me to read a draft or section, I would ask her, "What are you asking me to look for?" I found that if I got her to be specific about what she needed, then I could focus on the task and just deliver that.
Sometimes it was a grammar read. Other times she asked me to review relevant technical bits (there was some technical subject matter that I have some expertise in.) Sometimes she just asked me to read for flow. I'd stumble in certain places, and it was easy to tell her, "I got a little lost here because I didn't realize that Dick was talking to Jane after this event with Spot."
Looking back, the key to that was to explain what I was experiencing as a reader, rather than whether or not I liked the material.
The tough bits were early on - her first draft was really, really, rough. We both expected that. It evolved. It got really good. Just took time.
Through each read, I'd tell her where I saw improvement and praised the things that I thought were good. If I ran into something I didn't like or was a negative, I'd ask about it from a position of ignorance, which resulted in her figuring out the necessary change in the process of explaining it to me. This wasn't manipulative - this is part of the language of our marriage and it works very well for us as it tends to respect our individual emotional needs.
Writing a book is a tough, tough thing to do. Be as supportive as you can. The rewards can be very satisfying.
posted by Thistledown at 1:39 PM on March 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing to consider, is she asking for your opinion, your edits or your approval?
I had a similar situation with a girlfriend and finally had to say, "I will edit for grammar and typo's, but that is it." I wanted to edit as a professional who has edited for 25 years but that led to arguments and bad feelings from her.
I always did praise.
posted by ITravelMontana at 5:34 PM on March 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I had a similar situation with a girlfriend and finally had to say, "I will edit for grammar and typo's, but that is it." I wanted to edit as a professional who has edited for 25 years but that led to arguments and bad feelings from her.
I always did praise.
posted by ITravelMontana at 5:34 PM on March 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was listening to a podcast on this topic the other day.
You can listen here but the jist is that the early writing and drafting phase isn't the time for balanced critique or constructive criticism, as the writer is in the process of discovering as they go. The most important thing is to get the ideas down on paper, and revising as you go can be paralysing.
If she gets to the point where she's got a finished draft that's when your constructive feedback would be really valuable, but for the moment you can focus on what you like about it without feeling guilty.
posted by Dwardles at 12:51 AM on March 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can listen here but the jist is that the early writing and drafting phase isn't the time for balanced critique or constructive criticism, as the writer is in the process of discovering as they go. The most important thing is to get the ideas down on paper, and revising as you go can be paralysing.
If she gets to the point where she's got a finished draft that's when your constructive feedback would be really valuable, but for the moment you can focus on what you like about it without feeling guilty.
posted by Dwardles at 12:51 AM on March 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Everybody's right, recuse!
I have professional editing skills and I am loathe to do this outside of a professional context. In the rare cases that I do accept a friend edit — and if you are truly stuck — begin by asking, "What kind of feedback are you looking for? structural edits? copyedits? what stage of the process are you in and what level of critique do you want?"
When you make the writer spell out the kind of critique they're asking for, they can't be as hurt/surprised to actually receive that kind of critique.
That said, there is no win for you here.
Recuse!
posted by yearly at 8:25 PM on March 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have professional editing skills and I am loathe to do this outside of a professional context. In the rare cases that I do accept a friend edit — and if you are truly stuck — begin by asking, "What kind of feedback are you looking for? structural edits? copyedits? what stage of the process are you in and what level of critique do you want?"
When you make the writer spell out the kind of critique they're asking for, they can't be as hurt/surprised to actually receive that kind of critique.
That said, there is no win for you here.
Recuse!
posted by yearly at 8:25 PM on March 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
Why is everybody assuming she wants a critique?? She so clearly wants to share the writing she's been doing with her *husband*, the person with whom she shares her life. "What do you think?" is not a request for professional editing of the work, it's an attempt at connection.
posted by nirblegee at 10:45 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by nirblegee at 10:45 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
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